Avatar

Black Armory - Day 1 Impressions (Criticism)

by breitzen @, Kansas, Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 06:56 (10 days ago)
edited by breitzen, Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 07:21

I feel underwhelmed. I got some new weapons (a super fast firing shotgun that is a ton of fun) and had a relatively good time doing the quest steps (EP is great for those, Blind well too I'd guess), until the final step. WTF. Not only do I not know where the Forge is (is finding it part of the fun? Not really unless you give me a riddle or something), but I'm so under-leveled, doing the actual Forge event is just a waste of my time.

EDIT: I've been told I'm just blind and the Forge is actually on the map.

Take a hint from the Blind Well, have multiple tiers so I can do it on day one (with rewards appropriate for each difficulty tier). Or have a quest that leads me up to the Forge, gives me a powerful weapon, and then give me a new quest to claim the Forge.

But when I feel like I'm going to have to do another 2 weeks of grinding to finish the intro quest... ya done f***** up.

Setting down the game last night was so frustrating because I couldn't finish that first quest. I didn't feel powerful, I didn't feel like (here you go Cody) my time was valued, and I left wondering, what did I pay for?

NOW, much like the Dreaming City and EP, I'm sure I'll have a ton of fun with these events when I'm properly leveled.

My main criticism is with how poor (IMO) Black Armory starts. The carrot seems to be on a much longer stick, and that really really frustrates me.

Positivity time:

The Annex is a fantastic addition to the tower. I found a secret room, both there was nothing in it to really discover. I'd like that area to be more populated or at least have some scannable stuff for lore.

The two new weapons I got (shotgun and pulse rifle) are both really fun and have great design.

Avatar

Black Armory - Day 1 Impressions

by bluerunner @, Music City, Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 07:45 (10 days ago) @ breitzen

I feel like their main target is now the world's first raid completion streamers. They're setting high power level bars just for the sake of upping the difficulty for these people. This same strategy went into escalation protocol. They don't want the optics of the all-day grinders blowing through new content, so they set the power level high with no way to grind it high enough for day 1. Of course, if you aren't an all-day grinder, you're doing good to be leveled enough in month 1 of new content.

Nobody seemed to do a sanity check on this expansion. They just set the level for the hardcore guys right off the bat. I feel more and more that their intention for people to experience the content is to watch the streamers do everything first rather than play it.

Avatar

Black Armory - Day 1 Impressions

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 08:46 (10 days ago) @ bluerunner

The irony is that’s Destiny 1 mostly maintained its streamer base through trials of Osiris and crucible. Things which you didn’t really have to grind for.

Avatar

Black Armory - Day 1 Impressions

by ManKitten ⌂, The Stugotz is strong in me., Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 08:00 (10 days ago) @ breitzen

Same thing here. I feel a little duped after paying for the annual pass and I can't even participate in the stuff. (Let alone it be the stuff that is open to everyone.) So I guess I paid for the special stuff that I'll never be powerful enough to acquire anyway.

Anyway, I guess this is how it goes. Destiny has changed, or is changing. Which is fine, I'm just disappointed that it's changing in a direction that isn't parallel with what I like. I've never been the person that plays the game for the chase. It's fun just to get on and do stuff. But now the "stuff" is so above my light level that it can't even be done? Na. It's time to move on.

Avatar

I'm glad I'm not the only one

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 09:56 (10 days ago) @ breitzen

Jumping into the update yesterday was one of those experiences that leaves me utterly confused about what Bungie's plan or thought process is when it comes to their "player experience" or whatever we might call it.

I'll back up a bit: I've been having LOADS of fun since the launch of Forsaken. I think the quality of the content, along with the breadth of the sandbox makes Destiny a lot of fun to play right now. The tangled shore is really cool, and the Dreaming City is spectacular. All the extra story missions and challenges, plus the way the plot is unfolding slowly over time, plus Gambit and the new strikes... it's top-notch Destiny. I love it.

Still, Forsaken is not without its problems. It has become increasingly clear that Bungie's insistence on locking content behind arbitrary level grinds is a big problem for a significant portion of the player base. And let's be realistic... anyone who is still playing Destiny 2 at this point is a big fan of the franchise. We're beyond alienating the "casual" players here... we're at a point where even hardcore fans feel like they can't keep up unless their schedule leaves them room to play for several hours per day, most days of the week.

One thing that has always struck me as strange is the way Bungie appears to be completely tone-deaf when it comes to understanding the experience they've created. I just ranted about how much I love the Dreaming City. But when I first got there, all the wonder and amazement and desire to explore was immediately gut-checked by the realization that I was waaaaaay too under-leveled to do almost anything in that space. And I wasn't under-leveled because of some mistake I'd made. I just played the content that Bungie had put in front of me, and followed the path they laid out. I went to the Dreaming City when their game lead me to it.

It's such a strange 1-2 punch; "here, look at this amazing place that you can't wait to explore, and you just spent all this time working and grinding towards! Now you're finally here! Isn't it great? Well, jokes on you because you can't do any of it yet!" Like... really? Why introduce the player to a new area if that area is still out of their reach? Could you imagine watching a movie, having it build towards the climax, only to have the movie abruptly stop with a message saying "rewatch the first 2/3rds of the film several times over the next 2 weeks and then we will show you the ending"? Ok, I know that isn't a perfect analogy, but you get my point. Why not have the pre-Dreaming City content take you up to the minimum light level of the Dreaming City content... without weeks of repeating the same milestones over and over? It's such an obviously frustrating moment for the player to be lead towards a goal, work towards it, then to feel like they've gotten there only to discover that they can't really experience it yet. It's just so... mean.

This is a pattern that Bungie keeps recreating. We saw it during the Oryx raid (and most raids since that, to varying degrees). We're told "here's the required level to do this activity" only to discover, mid-activity, that the required level isn't actually good enough to finish the activity. We saw it in minor ways during the D2 campaign, where we would run into level gaps between story missions that would prevent us from doing the next mission until we leveled up more. But at least there, we had other Adventures and Patrol activities to facilitate the leveling up process; other new content to bridge the gap. More and more these days, Bungie seems determined to put these gaps in our way, make them increasingly bigger, without providing the right amount of side content to fill those gaps. Escalation Protocol was the flagship endgame activity of Warmind, but completing the Warmind content didn't bring the player anywhere remotely close to the level that would allow them to play EP. EP should have been one of the activities that we could grind in order to level up, rather than making it this totally out of reach activity that we all basically ignored until 2 months after Warmind's release when we were finally leveled up high enough to give it an earnest try.

And now we have Black Armory. I jumped in with my expectations fully in check. I knew we weren't getting a campaign. I knew not to hope for a big story progression or new patrol spaces or a bunch of new activities... But I did expect that when I start the single new quest line provided to me, I would be able to actually do the quest without grinding light levels for a week or two in between quest steps. It's not like the nature of the level grind has changed, either. It is literally the exact same things we've been doing for 3 months now. I hit 600 on all 3 characters weeks ago... this should mean that when a new piece of content is added to the game, my characters will be ready for it. Instead, what Bungie has done is hit the "pause" button on our ability to progress. Why didn't Bungie raise the level cap a week or two ago? If we're just grinding the exact same content anyway, why not let the players make that progression ahead of the new content release, so that when the new content that we've paid for comes out, we can actually play it?

I love Destiny, and I have all the respect in the world for the hard work and talent that goes into creating this game. And I'm equally sure that a few weeks from now, once yet another level grind is partially behind me, I'll be enjoying the new content that Bungie has added. But I feel I need to make this point strongly:

Bungie, THIS IS NOT HOW YOU SELL CONTENT TO YOUR FANS/CUSTOMERS.

This tradition of keeping the player in a state of feeling perpetually behind, locked out of content that they've paid for due to unnecessary and arbitrary level caps and minimums... it burns people. It makes them feel taken advantage of. It makes them think that you, as a studio, don't value their time.

Obviously, not everyone will feel this way. The super mega hardcore players who burn 10-12 hours per day will crash through the grind so fast that they'll forget all about it in a few days. Other people who just don't care as much or are ultra-zen about everything will wonder what all the fuss is about. I know that tone can be difficult to convey in a post like this, so I'll add that I'm not mad or angry. I just think that this is absolutely not "ok" practice.

I should say one last time, just to be crystal clear, that I think this is a big problem specifically because I think Bungie is doing such great work with a lot of what is going in to Destiny these days, and I worry that the implementation of their progression system/level requirements/grind very well might ruin many players' enjoyment of what is otherwise a fantastic game.

Avatar

I'll just say this

by kidtsunami @, San Francisco, CA, Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 10:14 (10 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

The most fun I have with Destiny is AFTER I and my friends hit the level cap. We stop grinding and start playing things for the fun of them...

Avatar

+1000

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 10:53 (10 days ago) @ kidtsunami

- No text -

Avatar

YES YES YES

by breitzen @, Kansas, Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 10:57 (10 days ago) @ kidtsunami

The most fun I have with Destiny is AFTER I and my friends hit the level cap. We stop grinding and start playing things for the fun of them...

This! Destiny has so many great activities that are fun! Don't lock them behind an un-sensable grind!

Avatar

I'm glad I'm not the only one

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 10:31 (10 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

One thing that has always struck me as strange is the way Bungie appears to be completely tone-deaf when it comes to understanding the experience they've created. I just ranted about how much I love the Dreaming City. But when I first got there, all the wonder and amazement and desire to explore was immediately gut-checked by the realization that I was waaaaaay too under-leveled to do almost anything in that space. And I wasn't under-leveled because of some mistake I'd made. I just played the content that Bungie had put in front of me, and followed the path they laid out. I went to the Dreaming City when their game lead me to it.

That part of Forsaken really sticks out to me. It almost feels like there was something there to fill the gap that was cut. When I first got the quest to unlock the Dreaming City, I remember being surprised, because I still felt like I hadn’t spent that much time in the Tangled Shore. Then I got to the Dreaming City and it felt like I wasn’t even supposed to be there yet.

But maybe not. Maybe that was Bungie’s response to all the complaints about the D2 campaign being too easy.

Avatar

Different Experience

by Robot Chickens, Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 10:46 (10 days ago) @ cheapLEY

One thing that has always struck me as strange is the way Bungie appears to be completely tone-deaf when it comes to understanding the experience they've created. I just ranted about how much I love the Dreaming City. But when I first got there, all the wonder and amazement and desire to explore was immediately gut-checked by the realization that I was waaaaaay too under-leveled to do almost anything in that space. And I wasn't under-leveled because of some mistake I'd made. I just played the content that Bungie had put in front of me, and followed the path they laid out. I went to the Dreaming City when their game lead me to it.


That part of Forsaken really sticks out to me. It almost feels like there was something there to fill the gap that was cut. When I first got the quest to unlock the Dreaming City, I remember being surprised, because I still felt like I hadn’t spent that much time in the Tangled Shore. Then I got to the Dreaming City and it felt like I wasn’t even supposed to be there yet.

But maybe not. Maybe that was Bungie’s response to all the complaints about the D2 campaign being too easy.

I agree with most of Cruel's points, but having something to chase at the end of it all was fun for me. Everything in the Tangled Shore was within reach of the progression and it was fun for me. Then I got to the Dreaming City and it felt like I was trespassing and I LOVED it. I had the same experience going underleveled into Crota and the Shattered Throne. Something about those places just felt right when I was struggling to survive. I could explore and poke around, but it was dangerous and exciting to do so. And, there were plenty of things to do in Forsaken (not Crota) to get me to that next hurdle. I'm still exploring and finding new things in the City and I love that.

This new piece fails IMO because there isn't anything to chew on right away. There is an immediate content drought with a wall standing in the way of the fun. Maybe it will get better, but the initial experience isn't very fun to me.

Avatar

Different Experience

by squidnh3, Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 11:12 (10 days ago) @ Robot Chickens

Then I got to the Dreaming City and it felt like I was trespassing and I LOVED it. I had the same experience going underleveled into Crota and the Shattered Throne. Something about those places just felt right when I was struggling to survive. I could explore and poke around, but it was dangerous and exciting to do so.

Plenty of people have pointed to this exact experience as something they wanted to see more of in Destiny. We all remember the ??? enemies in the original Destiny Beta, and how much fun it was to try to sneak past them. At the beginning of Forsaken I had the experience of starting a Tier 3 Blind Well while where I wasn't leveled enough to even damage the enemies, so I switched to Tether and tried to generate orbs while using invisibility to revive the other players. It was a blast, even though we failed.

I've since had a lot of success at Tier 3 and 4 - almost to the point that it's trivial. I expect in a week or two, we'll all blow through some Black Armory Forges without barely even having to try. I don't see the issue with Bungie giving us a week or so of struggle with the new content - after we are leveled there's no going back to this state.

Full disclosure, I haven't even tried or looked at what the Forges entail. My understanding is that the encounters start at 620, and ramp up to 630. To me this means you can start trying at 605 (I'm already there after last night). There are plenty of reports of people succeeding at them at 605-610. Maybe you aren't as confident with your abilities, but I always think it's worth a try. There's really nothing like succeeding against overwhelming odds.

Avatar

A key, ironic difference

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 11:39 (10 days ago) @ squidnh3

Then I got to the Dreaming City and it felt like I was trespassing and I LOVED it. I had the same experience going underleveled into Crota and the Shattered Throne. Something about those places just felt right when I was struggling to survive. I could explore and poke around, but it was dangerous and exciting to do so.


Plenty of people have pointed to this exact experience as something they wanted to see more of in Destiny. We all remember the ??? enemies in the original Destiny Beta, and how much fun it was to try to sneak past them. At the beginning of Forsaken I had the experience of starting a Tier 3 Blind Well while where I wasn't leveled enough to even damage the enemies, so I switched to Tether and tried to generate orbs while using invisibility to revive the other players. It was a blast, even though we failed.

I've since had a lot of success at Tier 3 and 4 - almost to the point that it's trivial. I expect in a week or two, we'll all blow through some Black Armory Forges without barely even having to try. I don't see the issue with Bungie giving us a week or so of struggle with the new content - after we are leveled there's no going back to this state.

Full disclosure, I haven't even tried or looked at what the Forges entail. My understanding is that the encounters start at 620, and ramp up to 630. To me this means you can start trying at 605 (I'm already there after last night). There are plenty of reports of people succeeding at them at 605-610. Maybe you aren't as confident with your abilities, but I always think it's worth a try. There's really nothing like succeeding against overwhelming odds.

There’s a funny distinction between the Forges and Blind Well or Escalation Protocol. Because the Forges use matchmaking, you can’t do them with more than 3 people. The community has been clamouring for 6-9 player matchmaking in Blind Well and EP, because we think of them as 6-9 player activities. But Bungie has always talked about them in terms of being 3-player activities. Now we have matchmaking for the Forge, and it basically locks us out of doing them with groups larger than 3 players.

While the process of gathering groups of 9 players to tackle EP or BW was always a pain in the ass, it was a great way for underlevelled players to experience the activity and make up for their lack of power, which helped bridge the gap until they were leveled up high enough to run the activity with the intended group size of 3.

Personally speaking, I love a challenge. I ran most of the Forsaken campaign 20-30 levels underlevelled, I was soloing Ascendant Challenges and Lost sectors where I’d get killed in 1-2 hits, I played the infamous 6-player strike almost 40 levels under, with a group who was similarly underpowered, I solo’d a good chunk of the Shattered Throne at ~565, etc. I love that kind of thing. But all those examples give the player space to move and maneuver, to use cover in intelligent ways. The Forge is more of a “bullet hell” style activity. You’re just getting blasted from all sides, all the time. I’m sure some players will enjoy pushing their way through while underlevelled, but it isn’t the kind of challenge that I personally enjoy.

Avatar

+1

by Robot Chickens, Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 12:10 (10 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

- No text -

Avatar

A key, ironic difference

by Korny ⌂ @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 13:20 (10 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

The community has been clamouring for 6-9 player matchmaking in Blind Well and EP, because we think of them as 6-9 player activities. But Bungie has always talked about them in terms of being 3-player activities. Now we have matchmaking for the Forge, and it basically locks us out of doing them with groups larger than 3 players.


I thought it was funny how Bungie was patting themselves in the back during their infomercial about how Forges were them Listening™ to the community about the requests for matchmaking since the days of CoO, but these Forges aren't in Patrol spaces, and they don't have the same scope. These are essentially just Strikes that take place in a single room, or a three-wave Prison of Elders, Both things that have had matchmaking since Destiny 1.

So no, this doesn't address the issue, because we're still locked into a 3-man fireteam in a non-raid PvE activity, while Venus Wolves and Escalation Protocol have both shown how fun the events are with a larger coordinated group. THAT'S what people want.

Avatar

A key, ironic difference

by bluerunner @, Music City, Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 13:42 (10 days ago) @ Korny

I wish they would do an overhaul of the patrol area matchmaking. I would gladly put up with the occasional problem of my friends not being able to join a full area if they would drop the requirement for areas to hold spots for potential fireteam members. I can see some issues like what to do if a 9 man fireteam starts heading to separate patrol spaces, but I think there are ways around it. I also want it to be much more aggressive in matching solo players into populated instances. I think doing that would be better than what they have done with the forges.

Avatar

Idea

by Robot Chickens, Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 16:45 (10 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

There’s a funny distinction between the Forges and Blind Well or Escalation Protocol. Because the Forges use matchmaking, you can’t do them with more than 3 people. The community has been clamouring for 6-9 player matchmaking in Blind Well and EP, because we think of them as 6-9 player activities. But Bungie has always talked about them in terms of being 3-player activities. Now we have matchmaking for the Forge, and it basically locks us out of doing them with groups larger than 3 players.

This sparked a thought in my inner armchair-developer. Wouldn't it be nice if they had two levels of matchmaking for this. One is normal mode where you could get up to 9 people in an instance. This would be the one needed for campaign stuff. A hardcore mode would also be available that is restricted to 3 players. The loot pool would contain skins for the weapons available in the other pool. Bungie could keep the "it's a 3-player activity" line while also acknowledging the way most people prefer to play. The interface would be exactly like how they did the Haunted Forest.

Avatar

Different Experience

by ManKitten ⌂, The Stugotz is strong in me., Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 11:40 (10 days ago) @ squidnh3

I don't see the issue with Bungie giving us a week or so of struggle with the new content - after we are leveled there's no going back to this state.

The issues (which seems to be THE issue with people who see it as an issue) is that that week translates into a lot more than a week. I'm yet to do any raid in D2. In D1, I usually did the raids for the first time a year later because that's how long it took me to level up.

They are changing their mode of release to be faster than I can keep up. And by the time I get to the appropriate light level, everyone else has moved on.

So when they release new content with the mentality of "well it's something to grind for" I respond with "no it's not." Games are my escape. Games are what I do at the end of the night to relax. After all the work and chores and responsibilities are done, I might find 30 minutes before bed to play some games. The most simple statement is, with what Destiny has become, I don't have time for it...I can't keep up.

I'm always down for hopping on with a group to play something because it's fun! But as for playing the game in an effort of progression, I'm done. I've still not gotten a full gambit armor set or a full vanguard set. I've still not gotten a piece of exotic armor or a weapon.

Ever been in that relationship where you get to a point and realize that you've not been happy for a while but you were still holding on to the early part that was amazing? Then you decide to put one last try into it and things are going good but then you fall back into that one old habit and you realize that the relationship is over? I think that's where I am. We've just grown apart. We want different things. :_(

Avatar

But you found your black and orange shader!!

by MacAddictXIV, Seattle WA, Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 11:52 (10 days ago) @ ManKitten

I thought that solved all problems? It's not how you feel, it's whether you look good. Isn't that how life works?

Avatar

But you found your black and orange shader!!

by ManKitten ⌂, The Stugotz is strong in me., Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 11:59 (10 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

I thought that solved all problems? It's not how you feel, it's whether you look good. Isn't that how life works?

And to my point, last night was the first time I beat a level 7 Escalation Protocol and it said I had to have a decrypted cache key to open the chest...so I didn't get anything.

And I got that black and orange EP shader a few months ago and the colors on the armor looked nothing like the shader thumbnail.

The disappointments just keep stacking up.

Avatar

I'm glad I'm not the only one

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 12:15 (10 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY
edited by Ragashingo, Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 12:38

I totally agree. Yes, Forsaken was amazing. Gameplay, story, deep lore, exploration, secrets. It had it all. I even enjoyed the initial underleveledness because it was clear there was a lot more to come.

That said... I feel like I’ve been grinding Power Level since... May? Since Warmind came out. Escalation Protocol was super punishing until I ground for several weeks. Then came Forsaken, and even the Tangled Shore campaign required me to grind a bit to keep up with the Barron missions. Then came the Dreaming City, where a lot of the space was almost too high level to interact with and a few Lost Sectors really were impossible to complete. Then my Raid group wanted to Raid in roughly a month and I was playing almost every day trying to chase Powerful Gear and still came in slightly underleveled. It was exhausting...

I was super thankful to have roughly a month when I let go of Destiny. I played halfway back through God of War. I jumped at the chance to play Final Fantasy XIII again and actually beat it for the first time. Then I switched to Fallout 4 and have just gotten to the comfortable point where I have good weapons, ok Power Armor, and enough perks and Fusion Cores that I feel decently powerful in the section of the story I’m at. Korny jokes, but aside from loving the Lore and doing Bite-sized Backstory, I’ve mostly been having a lot of fun away from Destiny!

And now Destiny comes back with new content. Yep, I went in with... not low expectations exactly, but... my hope is that Bungie is trying to give us another The Taken King/Forsaken at the end of 2019 and the price for that would be very limited campaigns until then. So I did the quest steps and ran into the high power level of the first forge and me and a couple of random got stomped. That sucked bad.

It wasn’t a totally wasted evening. I played Crucible and Gambit with DBO friends. And we did pretty good. But it all feels like it’s less in the service of fun and more in the service that very little Black Armory content or weapons can be obtained until I beat that first forge. So, fun with friends, but the looming grind even dampened that.

Oh... and we plan on doing the new Raid next week? Ha... *sigh*

I am super worn out in terms of Destiny. I’m at the point where I want to go back to Fallout 4 and then maybe Spider-Man and then other things until what I hope is a big late 2019 Forsaken style release. Yes... day one of Black Armory has me wishing Destiny itself would go away until this time next year!!

And the worst part? I feel like if I do drop out, even for a month, I’ll be so far behind the group I play with that I won’t be able to play with them. Friendships and group play are such a big part of Destiny for me, and now I feel those things are potentially going to go away as well.

Avatar

You beat FFXIII in a month?

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 12:57 (10 days ago) @ Ragashingo

Impressive. Most impressive.

Avatar

Took 13 days. Nov 13th - 26th. :)

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 13:35 (10 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I’d played it before but didn’t level my characters or weapons well so I got frustrated very early into Gran Pulse and gave up. This time I was much better at that stuff and pushed all the way through without too much difficulty. I’ll probably give a mini review of it here soon. Overall, I really enjoyed it. :)

Avatar

Took 13 days. Nov 13th - 26th. :)

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 18:18 (10 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I’d played it before but didn’t level my characters or weapons well so I got frustrated very early into Gran Pulse and gave up. This time I was much better at that stuff and pushed all the way through without too much difficulty. I’ll probably give a mini review of it here soon. Overall, I really enjoyed it. :)

I enjoyed it about as much as you can actually enjoy a JRPG. The 'tutorial' was overly long, and the battle system was still ultimately simple but I liked the story mostly despite all the proper nouns.

Avatar

Pretty much my experience too

by Robot Chickens, Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 10:09 (10 days ago) @ breitzen

I think the new mode will be fun once we're all leveled, but it was an abrasive and grindy wall to hit. Plus, the plot is super dumb to me this time. I loved the Dreaming City stuff, but this guns-for-gun's-sake thing feels like it would be better handled in a Borderlands fashion than a serious tone. Tell me a legend about it. Make the chase ridiculous as a wink to the fourth wall. Keeping it serious just feels a bit off-putting.

Avatar

Black Armory - Day 1 Impressions

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 10:28 (10 days ago) @ breitzen

I must admit that I’m baffled. I fully expect to look back appreciatively in five weeks of all the fun I had and am having grinding out Black Armory weapons. But I expected a bigger impact on day one of new stuff still. The lack of new armor is disappointing. Every season should have new ornaments for Vanguard, Crucible, and Gambit sets. That seems like a no-brainer to me.

That said, I also don’t really care. I will continue to just have fun playing Destiny. I had so much fun playing Gambit with Claude and Talli and Disciple a few nights ago. I had a blast last night doing the Nightfall and Heroic story missions and Crucible. Even our failed attempt at the first Forge was a lot of fun.

It’s a disappointing first day, for sure, but I’m willing to see the run of the first month before I really judge—this was explicitly advertised as new end game content, designed to keep the hardcore players coming back. That’s what this is—we’ll see how good it is at accomplishing that in a month.

Avatar

This entire thread...

by Korny ⌂ @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 13:10 (10 days ago) @ breitzen

[image]

I ain't even gotta hashtag it.




Anyway, the Annex was a lot bigger than I thought it would be. It feels like 30% more Tower, with some neat visuals here and there... So it's weird that it's entirely lifeless and empty. Not even a single scannable... That said, it's clearly meant to be populated in the future with more vendors and such, so I'm not writing it off as a total waste yet.

Also, it's weird that the long-hidden Golden Age armory is A.) Located in the outer wall of the Tower, built long after the Collapse, and B.) a place that The Spider knew about, but nobody on Earth did (except for the dozens of Guardians who know about it immediately after we do. Guess our Guardian just doesn't know how to keep their mouth shut...

Hmm.

Bleh. I think enough has been said about how underwhelming the Day 1 content is, and how weird that the Tutorial Forge requires grinding at least a dozen light levels worth of Milestones before you can do it, essentially making it so that you can't access much more than the people who didn't shell out $35 for the privilege of seeing that wall...

But keep in mind that there's another one coming on Friday (as well as a raid), so really, you should probably just do what Bungie wants and ignore the new Forge stuff for now. Focus on doing your milestones like normal, and have fun. Those who plan to drop into the new raid, don't expect to beat it the first week, because RNG will be RNG with drops, and your team will probably be all over the place level-wise.

For people who don't play Destiny religiously, but bought the Annual Pass for whatever reason, you just have to wait for a Christmas Story 650LL gun during the Dawning, and just enjoy the fun inherent in the friendgame.

Avatar

Christmas Story... lol

by slycrel ⌂, Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 23:20 (10 days ago) @ Korny

- No text -

Avatar

Black Armory - Day 1 Impressions

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ|f(ಠ‿↼)z|ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ, Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 13:42 (10 days ago) @ breitzen
edited by INSANEdrive, Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 13:48

I've not read anything other than the first paragraph of the original post by breitzen, which is where I'll start from.

I too have been underwhelmed by the day one experience. In thinking about why, it occurred to me that there was no real lead up to anything. It was just - oh go do this!

It's not that we need pomp and circumstance, just that... there were missed opportunities. Of course. Benefit of the doubt says that this stuff was made a year ago, so they coudn't have known what they knew a month ago... but yeah.

So what would have been better? TL;DR: Destiny becomes Harry Potter in the weeks before. Here's a scenario I'm just throwing out straight of my head for this post...

Three weeks ago a generator of some sort stops working, as we're still working out the kinks in rebuilding our tower after The Red War. This puts things in stand-by, we see frames scurrying about, blinking lights indicating a low power mode... a whole shebang.

No doubt, during this time we need to find parts of who knows what in the EDZ. Pretty simple. At the end there an enemy-less storyteller mission with Amanda in some underbelly where Titans can use percussive maintenance, Warlocks can use Arc Based light, and Hunters... I don't know. Use golden gun to intsa-weld something? :P

Lights are on by reset, things reset to what we expect in default... except for one thing. A door control is sparking, and in fact the whole area has been evacuated so that the maintenance frames can figure out what is going on. The Calus bot... at least for this moment is gone (but will be back after...?). The Drifter is back on his ship, replaced by a frame nestled in the connecting tunnels adjacent storage area. Ikora Rey is... thinking... by Cades old spot, and Hawthorn is Chilling in the secret room. "Hey look what I found" she'll say. "I wonder if there any other hidden rooms", she'll tease. And of course, we'll go to the spot that's sparking and we'll see "Press X to..." what have you. "Must have overloaded in the reset" no doubt our ghost, ever the observant one and fan of the obvious will tell us. The door... will then open alarmingly quickly and break. Spark.

Finally! What EVERY GUARDIAN HAS DREAMED OF has occurred... and oh look, no one else around. Neither Guardian, nor... Non-Guardian? Anyway, you go down and explore, or maybe you don't. Either way it's your only chance to see this without anyone else around, because once you leave, by the time you get back it will be public. Yet for this case, you go down. All seems abandoned. Remembrance of what once was.

Then you see an area that looks like a path to something... but only leads to a wall.

You scan it with ghost... "Something not right" he'll say. Something something "energy signature" then too. Then that all leads up to out happy fat friend giving us a shiny card and a name... "The Black Armory".

LOL!!!

Nahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. Lets just turn on the DLC. That's far more "living world".

[image]

...and that my friends is part of why Forsaken was so successful.

----------------------------------------

As for everything else...Oh...and this game hates me now. Everyone around me is getting Geomag Stabilisers, and I'm getting reeeeeeeeely salty about it. Like, I'm regressing over here. You know what I got last night? I got a master worked RATTLER! Nope, not a year two... year one! Static roll and everything. Got a Masterworked Braytech Osprey too. Year One.

Exotics? Warmind Weapons? Freaking NEW DLC jazz...just...err...NOPE!

*Sigh*

I want my OLD RNG back. ;_;

Avatar

Important update

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 15:11 (10 days ago) @ breitzen

https://www.bungie.net/en/Explore/Detail/News/47501

They've reduced the power requirement for the first forge (whatever that means, I haven't played yet, LOL) by 5. Not a HUGE difference, granted, but it might help some folks. They say they're going to be making other changes toward the same end, but they're not saying precisely what those are yet.

Avatar

Ah... the power of server side updates.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ|f(ಠ‿↼)z|ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ, Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 15:25 (10 days ago) @ stabbim

- No text -

Avatar

Wow. Good news.

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 18:35 (10 days ago) @ stabbim

- No text -

They've switched to a subscription model

by TheOmegaClown, Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 18:11 (10 days ago) @ breitzen

Which is absolutely fine by me. Stringing things out gives me a reason to get on for an hour or two when I have the time. The dlc model in d2 with warmind and osiris was terrible.

I guess playing other mmo's makes me not too worried about the "grind"? At least I'll be motivated to play...which was not the case in warmind or osiris. I'd just log on to raid once a week and that was it. The idea of getting a collection of cosmetic gear sets has no appeal to me.

Avatar

Almost Got It... Which, of course, means I didn't...

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 21:25 (10 days ago) @ breitzen
edited by Ragashingo, Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 21:31

Some thoughts:

  • I know Bungie is going to address things as soon as they can, but man oh man, what a terrible opening experience this has been. Why is something like this being addressed with emergency Power Level reductions and Weekly Updates? It really feels like nobody at Bungie is advocating for the normal player anymore. Yes, streamers who are literally paid to play the game all day probably can beat it early, but the rest of us are just stuck now. And, sheesh, even though I'm still stuck, there are plenty of people well below my Power Level who have zero chance of beating this first forge this year! "New Content! (that you can't play or enjoy)" totally sucks.

  • Escalation Protocol "worked" because it could be (had to be) ignored for the first several weeks weeks because there was other stuff to do. There was a story to beat. There were collectables to find. There were Strikes to complete and get good at. There were Exotics and special Legendary quests to go after. With Black Armory, there is absolutely nothing to do except fail to complete the first forge over and over. (Of course, Escalation Protocol didn't really work either. Remember, Bungie had to do one of these server side emergency tweaks to it too. What is it with Bungie not respecting their players these days??)

  • Why do all of these team events totally suck when it comes to rewards if you don't complete them? When me and a couple of random got the boss down to 25% health we got a green triangle and a blue engram that did absolutely nothing to help me succeed. 580ish rewards when I'm being stomped by 620-625 level enemies is just stupid. I'm not even sure why this forge drops rewards, because they don't mean anything. They're more like an insult or middle finger than a reward. Actually completing the event should still be rewarding, and it looks like it might be given Ada's extensive screen of stuff to earn, but not beating it shouldn't be a complete waste of time like it is now. And that goes for things like EP and the Blind Well.

  • This obsession Bungie has with starting us off with a nearly impossible uphill climb needs to end. Why can't Patrol, or Strikes, or matchmade activities, or Raids be enjoyable from day one? Why does the challenge keep coming from me dying in two hits instead of clever mechanics or an overwhelming number of normal enemies? If there needs to be an extra challenge beyond mechanics and normal enemies, why can't selectable light levels be a thing again? Remember back when there were four levels of Strikes that you could progress through? Black Armory sure could use a system like that right now!

And so, I end day two of Black Armory with no one to play with and a new vendor who won't let me buy anything because I only once even got close to unlocking her two screens of inventory... :(

Avatar

Almost Got It... Which, of course, means I didn't...

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 22:35 (10 days ago) @ Ragashingo

Did they change the infusion requirements? That alone would help dramatically.

Avatar

Almost Got It... Which, of course, means I didn't...

by bluerunner @, Music City, Thursday, December 06, 2018, 04:59 (10 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Did they change the infusion requirements? That alone would help dramatically.

No, but it has seemed to me that I am getting more cores from beaking down weapons and scrapper bounties are dropping regularly.

Avatar

Yeah, same.

by MacAddictXIV, Seattle WA, Thursday, December 06, 2018, 09:07 (9 days ago) @ bluerunner

- No text -

Avatar

Yeah, same.

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Thursday, December 06, 2018, 09:39 (9 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

As someone who puts loads of time into the game, I've found that the drop rates of enhancement cores have improved to the point that I always have between 10-30 of them in my inventory, without ever specifically grinding for them (with the exception of my semi-daily trip to Spider, where I'll buy 2 or 3 at a time from him).

I use them fairly liberally. I don't bother with masterworking my armor, but I'm chipping away at upgrading the masterworks on a bunch of my weapons, with several of them fully upgraded now. The planetary materials are the thing that I still run out of on a regular basis. That, and glimmer. My glimmer bank seems to flip between maxed out and bone dry, completely bypassing everything in between lol.

Avatar

Yeah, same.

by cheapLEY @, Thursday, December 06, 2018, 09:45 (9 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Ditto on glimmer!

For whatever it’s worth, I just spent like 30-60 minutes on each planet doing patrols and PEs and opening chests, and I ended up with over 100 of each material. Just take a Nightstalker Hunter with top tree for the radar and use a ghost with cache detector or whatever it’s called and it’s easy. It’s slightly annoying to have to spend the few hours it took, but it’s not bad if you just commit to it. I also took the opportunity to start hunting down regional chests and lost sectors so I can get rid of that annoying Triumph banner every time I move gear around with DIM.

Avatar

Yeah, same.

by MacAddictXIV, Seattle WA, Friday, December 07, 2018, 06:55 (8 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Ditto on glimmer!

For whatever it’s worth, I just spent like 30-60 minutes on each planet doing patrols and PEs and opening chests, and I ended up with over 100 of each material. Just take a Nightstalker Hunter with top tree for the radar and use a ghost with cache detector or whatever it’s called and it’s easy. It’s slightly annoying to have to spend the few hours it took, but it’s not bad if you just commit to it. I also took the opportunity to start hunting down regional chests and lost sectors so I can get rid of that annoying Triumph banner every time I move gear around with DIM.

I spent some time doing that as well yesterday. I also grab the location bounties as well and stored them up for next week so I can just pop them for the materials and Ikora's bounty.

Avatar

As someone who hasn't bought the annual pass yet...

by slycrel ⌂, Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 23:29 (10 days ago) @ breitzen
edited by slycrel, Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 23:37

...I'm sort of glad I haven't after reading this thread. I don't plan on raiding due to logistics and power level -- still more or less blind on the last raid. And I was able to get the quest and go into the annex, but I need the annual pass to go beyond the first visit to the vendor. Clever marketing.

I did get to see that I can't exchange armor mod materials unless I buy the annual pass. It was only a little insulting.

I'll continue to play a few times a week, but I'm disappointed that other than a seemingly better RNG, I'm starting the 560-600 grind from 600-650. Just as I was mostly to a single set of masterwork armor. Ah well.

Maybe the dawning will be a bit better.

Avatar

Power level idea...

by bluerunner @, Music City, Thursday, December 06, 2018, 07:58 (9 days ago) @ breitzen

So, I thought this up in my 10 minute drive to work this morning. Just posting here tk see if anybody thought ot would be a good idea.

What of they had a set powerful engram level that increased on a set schedule? No matter what your light level going in (assuming you had reached max 1-50 level) you would get powerful engrams at set level each day.
For example:
Black Armory launches with an increase in max light level from 600 to 650.
Day 1 - All powerful engrams drop at 605, regardless of your personal light level.
Day 2 - All powerful engrams drop at 610, regardless of your light level or if you played the previous day.
Day 3 - All powerful engrams drop at 615, regardless of your light level or if you played the previous day.
Day 4 and so on - drops increase by 5 each day.

Raid releases on Day 3 with a light level of 630-640. Everyone who has played can be at 615 with a reasonable amount of playtime. The raid is still challenging, but is available to play for players who have been playing constantly and players who are returning after a break. Larger pool competing for world's first.

By the end of the 2nd week you could be at max power level. I suspect the hardcore grinders will be there by that time anyway under the current system.

Returning players who didn't play days 1-whatever can still level up at an easy pace. Play one day of powerful engram activites and you should be caught up with your friends and ready to raid.

Avatar

An easier solution.

by cheapLEY @, Thursday, December 06, 2018, 08:17 (9 days ago) @ bluerunner

Get rid of the soft cap. Bam. Problem solved.

Or hell, keep the soft cap. But make it so that every Legendary Engram drops at +1 to your average. Depending on which slot they hit, they still might not help, but you will be able to always steadily climb. Then keep the milestones as guaranteed powerful rewards. I just fixed 90% of the game’s progression problems.

Avatar

An easier solution.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, December 06, 2018, 08:22 (9 days ago) @ cheapLEY

No soft cap and bankable rewards. Miss a week? It’s ok just do the milestone twice this week!

Avatar

An easier solution.

by bluerunner @, Music City, Thursday, December 06, 2018, 09:42 (9 days ago) @ Cody Miller

No soft cap and bankable rewards. Miss a week? It’s ok just do the milestone twice this week!

And what happens if I dont play for a month? Do I have to grind 4 weeks of power levels just to be able to raid with my friends?

Avatar

An easier solution.

by cheapLEY @, Thursday, December 06, 2018, 11:17 (9 days ago) @ bluerunner

No soft cap and bankable rewards. Miss a week? It’s ok just do the milestone twice this week!


And what happens if I dont play for a month? Do I have to grind 4 weeks of power levels just to be able to raid with my friends?

That’s better than being perpetually four weeks behind, isn’t it? My solution would also let you potentially power up pretty consistently from any legendary engrams.

My solution also at least ostensibly still lines up with whatever asinine design goals Bungie has in mind by including such a constructive grind to begin with. You’d still have to play, but you wouldn’t just be locked out of progressing once you finish your weekly checklist.

Your solution would be great, I just don’t think we’d ever see it implemented, as it seems pretty clear Bungie doesn’t want people to power up that quickly.

Avatar

An easier solution.

by bluerunner @, Music City, Thursday, December 06, 2018, 11:22 (9 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Your solution would be great, I just don’t think we’d ever see it implemented, as it seems pretty clear Bungie doesn’t want people to power up that quickly.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/a3lzyx/power_level_650_has_been_reached

Avatar

An easier solution.

by cheapLEY @, Thursday, December 06, 2018, 11:33 (9 days ago) @ bluerunner

And? Did you see how he did it? He had multiples of every Powerful bounty saved up to turn in on three characters. So sure, it’s possible, but you won’t convince me that’s what Bungie intends.

Avatar

I feel like LL wouldn't have been much of a problem if

by MacAddictXIV, Seattle WA, Thursday, December 06, 2018, 08:11 (9 days ago) @ breitzen

They had just unlocked the 650 cap at the start of the season. Giving people a week to bring their light up a little bit would have gone a long ways toward the gap they created. Not only that it is a time where people know there is going to be content coming where we want to be as high as possible for while also not being able to see that dangling carrot.

Avatar

Black Armory - Day 6 Impressions

by cheapLEY @, Sunday, December 09, 2018, 21:41 (6 days ago) @ breitzen

Now that I've had some time to level up and tackle the Forge some more, I'm really enjoying it.

I've come close, but still haven't managed to beat the Gofannon Forge (seriously, those Servitors are a pain in the ass). I've completed the Volundr Forge around a dozen times now. It's a really neat activity!

It's a bit disappointing that the only difference between the two available Forges are enemy mixtures. I wasn't expecting, but I was hoping for them to have some mechanical differences, with a unique twist for each one.

In any case, I'm really enjoying the new stuff. The bounties are a cool addition. They're a great mix of doing old stuff to and running the Forge.

I do worry about how fun the Forges will remain once everyone is at or near the level cap--the challenge level seems nearly perfect when just above 610. I hope they remain as fun when they're significantly easier. Blind Well and Escalation Protocol are fun now that they're easily largely because of the large numbers of players and the public nature of the events (at least that's a huge part of it for me), but the Forge doesn't have that to sustain it.

Avatar

Black Armory - Day 6 Impressions

by Harmanimus, Monday, December 10, 2018, 10:43 (5 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Faster clears for assured drops will be very popular with the base if the baseline stats of the weapons are as good as they seem to be.

Avatar

Black Armory - What happened to difficulty selection?

by cheapLEY @, Monday, December 10, 2018, 19:15 (5 days ago) @ cheapLEY
edited by cheapLEY, Monday, December 10, 2018, 19:30

I like the Forges. I think they're neat activities.

I think it has the same problem almost everything in Destiny 2 has, though. And that's difficulty scaling. Look at Escalation Protocol and Blind Well. They were very difficult at first, and they become easier as you gain power level. Once you're overleveled, they become very nearly trivial (Me and three blueberries breezed through many Tier 4 Blind Wells--it wasn't quite "trivial," but it was close).

There's no doubt that the Forges will follow the same pattern. I'm at 612-614 depending on weapons, and the Volundr Forge feels perfect in terms of challenge. It's very doable, but mistakes can also lead to failure fairly easily. In another two weeks, I feel like the Forges are going to be just as trivial as the Blind Well now is (unless the Forges we haven't seen are different than the two we have in some way).

I've said before that I really liked the House of Wolves era of Destiny, and I think the Prison of Elders would have been a good blueprint for the Forges. I think a tiered difficulty selection for escalating challenge (and rewards!) would be cool. I always liked that aspect of the Prison of Elders. The Blind Well sort of hints at it, but not in a way that really feels satisfying.

In this hypothetical I see the highest tier Forge being at a level where the player is always underleveled. If the cap is 650, maybe the event starts at 660.

Destiny 2 has definitely simplified the way loot is handled, so I'm not exactly sure how you would scale up rewards for each difficulty level. Initially, making the Powerful engrams from the activity scale is a potential (if slightly lazy) solution. Bottom tier would be a guaranteed +1, middle +3, highest +5. But that would become irrelevant very quickly.

I also thought of the tying weapon drops to tiers. Maybe the highest tier forged weapons could drop fully Masterworked already. Maybe they could offer unique perk combinations that aren't possible anywhere else?

I can also see a version where you "forge" a weapon at the lowest tier, and then you must use it in activities, similar to what the frame activation requires now. The lowest tier might drop a blue version of the weapon, then you use it for a while, complete some activities with it (headshots, multikills, whatever), then take it into the next tier to turn it into a legendary where it gets it's first perk. You then do some more activities and complete the highest tier where it becomes fully Masterworked and gains a second perk. In a really crazy, awesome world, perhaps the activities you chose to do with the weapons would direct which perks you get. Go for headshots to pull in the pool that gives you outlaw or dragonfly. Go for multikills to shoot for Rampage or Kill Clip. You get the idea. You wouldn't be able to directly select perks (in order to keep the chase there, and keep people going back to the Forges), but you could direct which set of perks you are pulling from based on the goals you choose to use the weapon for.

That's just dreaming, and extraneous to what I think would have actually helped the initial launch blues of Black Armory--tiered difficulty settings that ensure activities can be completed at low level and provide a path to gain level, but also provide a mode that will always be challenging.

Back to the forum index
RSS Feed of thread