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Upcoming Allegiance Quest Discussion (Destiny)

by ManKitten ⌂, The Stugotz is strong in me., Monday, March 11, 2019, 05:58 (217 days ago)

I saw a video over the weekend talking about the quest that comes out this Tuesday(?) where we will have to choose allegiance to either Vanguard or The Drifter and that it's a permanent decision that will effect our gameplay going forward.

What is everyone's thought on this? How are you choosing?

From my interpretation of the game, when I consider choosing Vanguard, I'm essentially choosing Zavala. I see Zavala as a bit of a blind zealot who is passionate about doing the right thing but believes too strongly in The Traveler and it's perceived intentions. As for The Drifter, there is a lot of mystery there. Dark, unknown mystery. I have no idea what his intentions are or what his past is. He's just a flashy guy with slight of hand magic tricks that everyone seems to think is "cool". Common sense says "Don't trust this guy." but a lot of those judgements are based on societal norms, which, let's be honest, probably shouldn't be trusted either.

You could even go the simpler but more common and deep path of story telling, do you choose the long standing established religion, or the Antichrist.

I don't know which direction to go. What's everyone else thinking and why?

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For my warlock? drifter, hunter and titan? vanguard

by kidtsunami @, Atlanta, GA, Monday, March 11, 2019, 06:42 (217 days ago) @ ManKitten

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Account or Character based?

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Monday, March 11, 2019, 08:16 (217 days ago) @ kidtsunami

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Pretty sure it's just character.

by ManKitten ⌂, The Stugotz is strong in me., Monday, March 11, 2019, 08:24 (217 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

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Upcoming Allegiance Quest Discussion

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, March 11, 2019, 08:53 (217 days ago) @ ManKitten

This may come off as overly cynical or pessimistic, but I’m pretty sure the whole “Drifter vs the Vanguard” angle is just a giant misdirect. I’d bet money that we’ll discover at the end that the Vanguard and the Drifter are secretly working together to get the REAL bad guy. Maybe they’re using Gambit and Gambit prime to lure out the Dredgen leaders, or to expose dark/corrupted guardians, or something like that.

If for no other reason, they’re not going to get rid of Gambit as a game mode. So the Drifter and his activity can’t be revealed to be evil. At least that’s how it looks to me.

As far as picking sides goes, I’ve got multiple characters, so I’ll try both sides just to see how they play out :)

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Calling Dr. Shingo, Dr. Ragashingo

by ManKitten ⌂, The Stugotz is strong in me., Monday, March 11, 2019, 09:17 (217 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

This may come off as overly cynical or pessimistic, but I’m pretty sure the whole “Drifter vs the Vanguard” angle is just a giant misdirect.

Could be. The way things are going with the "in-game lore*" everything could be a misdirect. The Traveler, Rasputin, The Darkness, The Black Pyramids.

Raga, you have any quick tidbits about The Drifter and his history and your interpretation of his motives?


*Lore presented in actual gameplay and cutscenes...not Grimoire.

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Spoilers

by Durandal, Monday, March 11, 2019, 09:21 (217 days ago) @ ManKitten

If you have read the datamined lore, this is more possible then you know. There is definitely some collusion going on.

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Spoilers

by ManKitten ⌂, The Stugotz is strong in me., Monday, March 11, 2019, 09:35 (217 days ago) @ Durandal

If you have read the datamined lore, this is more possible then you know. There is definitely some collusion going on.

Is this something to which you could provide a link of said lore? Or does it fall into the Second Rule of no-no content on this forum.

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Spoilers

by Harmanimus @, Monday, March 11, 2019, 09:41 (217 days ago) @ ManKitten

It’s on Ishtar Collective, pulled from API data. So i don’t think it falls under that.

Spoilers

by Claude Errera @, Monday, March 11, 2019, 11:34 (217 days ago) @ Harmanimus

It’s on Ishtar Collective, pulled from API data. So i don’t think it falls under that.

You don't even need to read the datamined stuff to see some of the weird bits; Bungie published a series of Narrative Previews last week, and they all had some funky info.

Gambit Prime
The Reckoning
Praxic Order
The Murder of Cayde-6
The Job

For what its worth...

by Claude Errera @, Monday, March 11, 2019, 11:48 (217 days ago) @ Claude Errera

The Cayde-6 one contains a total retcon of the destruction of Cayde's ghost - clearly written to explain why more ghosts aren't killed that way. :)

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For what its worth...

by cheapLEY @, Monday, March 11, 2019, 12:06 (217 days ago) @ Claude Errera

It’s honestly a super necessary retcon, given that the enemies spend a whole lot of time bombarding my Ghost when I’m dead.

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For what its worth...

by Harmanimus @, Monday, March 11, 2019, 12:59 (217 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Honestly I considered it more the retcon of how a single bullet did it. While Cayde was still standing no less. Given that previously the only reliably stated (as I can recall) non-paracausal final deaths have been explicitly heavy, blanket bombardment and (assumed to be causal) SIVA consumption. Most other ones could be paracausal/near-paracausal or otherwise not described enough to illustrate how much damage was required to kill the Ghost.

It does set up some interesting implications. And as far as I can tell it feels mostly like all of this lore about it was planned in advance.

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Interesting

by ManKitten ⌂, The Stugotz is strong in me., Monday, March 11, 2019, 12:08 (217 days ago) @ Claude Errera

It’s on Ishtar Collective, pulled from API data. So i don’t think it falls under that.


You don't even need to read the datamined stuff to see some of the weird bits; Bungie published a series of Narrative Previews last week, and they all had some funky info.

Gambit Prime
The Reckoning
Praxic Order
The Murder of Cayde-6
The Job

Thank you for the links. It piques my interest even more though.

Let's see if I digest/speculate this correctly.

Drifter is using Guardians to test new armor. Drifter has access to Taken baddies.
This Praxic Order Warlock is like Vanguards Internal Investigations team.
Praxic Order thinks Drifter is evil and needs to go.
Praxic Order is suspicious of how Cayde died and is investigating me.
After learning that my story of Caydes death is true, I'm deemed trustworthy and now the Praxic Order will approach me to help them against the Drifter.
Ikora tells PO to lay off of the Drifter.
Zavala and Ikora have something going on together that mostly likely involves The Drifter.

So we will have to choose between The Drifter and Praxic Order? If that's the case, I ain't no narc. And they didn't believe my story about Cayde? Pfftt...forget that noise. Sign me up for the Drifter.

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Interesting

by Durandal, Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 06:38 (216 days ago) @ ManKitten

The Praxic order is stated as "not concerned about the nature of darkness, but on fighting it", and in these tidbits seems to be an enforcement arm dedicated to policing guardians that embrace the darkness, it's philosophy, or murder other guardians (thus breaking the Iron Decree).

The Drifter and Shin are in cahoots, to lure out guardians who cannot restrain themselves and lose themselves to the darkness. These guardians are then slain by Shin after revealing themselves in gambit.

The Drifter is also working with the Nine, for some unknown reason.

The Vanguard are aware of the deal with Shin and Drifter, and allow it to both train guardians and to eliminate traitors, but can't state that openly without giving the game away. So they play ignorant and that grates on the Praxic order.

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Calling Dr. Shingo, Dr. Ragashingo *Spoilers*

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Monday, March 11, 2019, 15:22 (217 days ago) @ ManKitten
edited by Ragashingo, Monday, March 11, 2019, 15:26

Yeah. I still need to double check all of this to make sure I’m not linking things that don’t belong together, but my initial impression of the latest lore is:

Dredgen Yor allowed Shin Malphur to kill him. More than that, by defeating Jaren Ward after Ward shot first (Jaren Ward did not miss!), Yor showed Shin (and by extension other Guardians) that while traditional speed and skill (like Jaren Ward had with his trusty The Last Word) was enough to fight Fallen, more extensive uses of Light-based techniques (like Golden Gun) would be required to fight true minions of The Darkness. In a way, Yor emphasized this fact by causing decades of death and destruction such that a Guardian like Shin has to call on the Light to put a permanent end to Yor.

For a while now in the lore, we’ve been lead to believe that Shin Malphur was “The Man With The Golden Gun”, a semi-rogue Guardian who would hunt down and permanently kill any Guardian that experimented any with the Darkness. The newest info is that Shin is actually a member of a group called The Shadows of Yor who is heavily involved in experimenting with The Darkness. Shin himself has taken on a Dredgen title which is a somewhat shocking twist in what we know about him. In messages to our Guardian, Shin explains that he and this group exist both to find ways to harness the Darkness to protect humanity AND to provide a permanent end to those like Dredgen Yor who can’t cope with the corrupting allure of falling too deep into the Darkness. Essentially, Shin is running a honeypot, a group that (in part) promotes experimenting with Darkness but that also comes down fatally hard on Guardians that go too far. Gambit and the Drifter seem to also be involved with this two pronged scheme. (Though I would not put full faith in the goodness of the Drifter.)

Interestingly, the persona of “The Man With The Golden Gun”, a Guardian so blinded by Righteousness and Light that he’ll end any Guardians who does any experimenting with Darkness, is really just a way to bruise the egos of weak willed Guardians who would have taken longer to be seduced by the Darkness. Basically they are herded into experimenting and killed if they go too deep. Shin really does kill corrupt Guardians, but nowhere near as often or as unconditionally as his legend implies.

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Calling Dr. Shingo, Dr. Ragashingo *Spoilers*

by Harmanimus @, Monday, March 11, 2019, 16:01 (217 days ago) @ Ragashingo

A caveat worth double checking: My understanding was that Jaren Ward didn’t fire on Yor. He saw the “strike me down” ploy. The follow up being that the ploy worked on Shin. Leading to the rest of all this as being in some ways the plan the whole time.

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Calling Dr. Shingo, Dr. Ragashingo *Spoilers*

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Monday, March 11, 2019, 19:43 (217 days ago) @ Harmanimus

A caveat worth double checking: My understanding was that Jaren Ward didn’t fire on Yor. He saw the “strike me down” ploy. The follow up being that the ploy worked on Shin. Leading to the rest of all this as being in some ways the plan the whole time.

No, we know he fired all the way back in Ghost Fragment: The Last Word 3

We all woke that night, closer to morning than the previous day.

A crack of gunfire split through the wood. Then more.

Far off, but near enough to pump the blood.

A familiar ring. "Last Word." Jaren's sidearm. His best friend.
Then another. A single shot, an unmistakable echo calling through the night. Hushed, cutting.

One shot, dark and infernal. Followed by silence.

The cadence of the shots fired told a story none of us cared to hear.

"Last Word" it hadn't been. And somewhere in the world, close enough for us to bear absent witness but far enough to be a dream, Jaren Ward lay dead or dying. And there was nothing to be done.

In Ghost Fragment: Thorn 4, Jaren Ward's Ghost converses with Dredgen Yor: (It's an open question which Ghost this is. I think it's Jaren's Ghost, because in Thorn 3, Dredgen Yor intends to part ways with his own Ghost.)

[u.1:0.8] You’ve just murdered a good man.
[u.2:0.8] He shot first.
[u.1:0.9] Yet you stand.
[u.2:0.9] Guess he missed.
[u.1:1.0] He never misses.

And most recently in A Shadow's Worth:

Yor wasn't faster than Jaren. And Jaren didn't miss. Yor was just more than Jaren. Yor was other. It took fire to burn him down, and Jaren, for all his gifts, was lacking in fire.

So, when Jaren faced him down, Yor gave him the first shot, offered freely. But Jaren's lead wasn't enough.

As for the strike me down ploy... No, I still think this all points to Dredgen Yor falling to the Darkness but finally doing some last sliver of good at the end by goading Shin Malphur into killing him. I thought this way back when Ghost Fragment: Thorn 4 came out with The Taken King:

[u.1:3.1] The cannon. You wish to tempt the boy. To spur him on and fuel his rage. There is intent there. The actions of a man, monstrous, mad or otherwise... you are nothing more.
[u.2:3.4] And what value does your conclusion bring, flawed as it may be?
[u.1:3.2] That a hurricane can only be weathered, not stopped. Not redirected. A force of nature is uncaring and without intent, but a man...
[u.2:3.5] Yes?
[u.1:3.3] A man is none of those things.
[silence]
[u.1:3.4] A man can be killed.
[silence]
[u.2:3.6] And there it is...
[u.1:3.5] There what is...?
[u.2:3.7] A sliver of hope.

Yor see's his potential death as a sliver of hope. Back to A Shadow's Worth, we get Shin Malphur's perspective on what Dredgen Yor was doing:

But when Yor and I finally met on the flat, high ridge, I was ready, and, as I would come to find, so was he. Ready to offer his final lesson, his final gift. A final push toward my true destiny.

One that would put me at odds with heroes in order to ensure our worlds are filled with fewer monsters. It was a path I was sure to walk alone, until I found others, until I found trust.

And in Faith in Monsters:

The moment of Jaren's death played on repeat in my mind. Rapid fire. Jaren's cannon, then Yor's. Then silence, long ago, in a nowhere forest out west.

Jaren never missed. Yet he did. Yor, then, didn't. But Jaren was no easy target. Was Yor? He hadn't flinched when I pulled steel. No movement. No change in his tone or words. I gunned him down mid-sentence, as if he didn't care. He knew I would. Knew I'd draw. Knew I'd fire. So, why the talk? Why have words when he knew mine would be loud, mine would be death?

Maybe you'll understand this without further explanation. Maybe you won't. But the answer is—and it set my course for every moment after—

Because he believed in me.

Shin Malphur then asks a very interesting question in The Pain of What's Right:

Did the fact I began as a victim color your perception of me? Is my path—my cause—more righteous because I was owed justice and vengeance?

For the longest time I thought so. But then—and here is where the truth of it all begins to gain focus—

What if the villain of the story believed so? What if the villain tore apart my life, and countless others', as a terrible means to an end? What if I was lost, and he offered guidance by gifting me vengeance?

What if I told you…

He was right to do so.

In some ways, I'm not sure that the story of The Last Word was ever meant to go down this path. I wonder if I might be happier if the story "ended" with Shin Malphur as the Man with the Golden Gun who hunts down Guardians who slip and who offers no exceptions. But in other ways, the story has now taken on a new, interesting twist. And for all the evil that Rezyl Azzir (Dredgen Yor) did, this new twist ultimately sees him redeemed. And now we have the Shadows, a group of Guardians:

Offering two paths in order to draw out those eager for power beyond their means.

There is a theory going around that Shin Malphur fell to the Darkness in the say way Dredgen Yor did, but I really don't think so. In Revelations and Invitations he says this:

The Shadows are a danger. We are guided by the evolved and controlled methods of Dredgen Yor, except instead of death and destruction, I am offering the mysteries and powers of the Darkness as bait for those who would otherwise go freely into the abyss.

I have built the perfect trap with which to cull the weak-willed.

And it is working.

So we have Shin Malphur, aka Zyre Orsa, aka Dredgen Vale carrying out that same ongoing mission to prevent Guardians from falling to the Darkness by any means necessary, but now it's been revealed that some of those means are actively tempting at risk Guardians. Is that better or worse than trying to encourage those Guardians back to the Light? Or is that job already well taken care of via the Vanguard and each Guardian's Ghost? Maybe Shin Malphur's temptation of at risk Guardians is a necessary evil to catch those who don't want to be encouraged?

Interesting stuff!

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Calling Dr. Shingo, Dr. Ragashingo *Spoilers*

by Harmanimus @, Monday, March 11, 2019, 20:12 (217 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I suppose I was working off the supposition that the story, the myth, played better with a gunshot. But I suppose in the scheme of things it doesn’t matter if he shot or not, but there is more to support taking the shot. (Albeit I kinda like the idea that Ward refused the path Shin accepted, I digress)

And I guess I wasn’t clear enough with what I meant by ploy. The redemption arc for Yor being chasing a successor. That Ward couldn’t produce the necessary fire, making him unable to do what was necessary, and that Yor knew he had tipped past the event horizon. He was trying to find someone who would walk that line. And Shin has been doing it, but more in the sense of carrying on Yor’s real work. Not weapons of sorrow but finding balance between Light and Dark.

I’ve only done one pass on the new lore stuff, and not even all of it.

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Dredgen Yor and A Lack of a Light Side Argument

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Monday, March 11, 2019, 20:57 (217 days ago) @ Harmanimus

I suppose I was working off the supposition that the story, the myth, played better with a gunshot. But I suppose in the scheme of things it doesn’t matter if he shot or not, but there is more to support taking the shot. (Albeit I kinda like the idea that Ward refused the path Shin accepted, I digress)

And I guess I wasn’t clear enough with what I meant by ploy. The redemption arc for Yor being chasing a successor. That Ward couldn’t produce the necessary fire, making him unable to do what was necessary, and that Yor knew he had tipped past the event horizon. He was trying to find someone who would walk that line. And Shin has been doing it, but more in the sense of carrying on Yor’s real work. Not weapons of sorrow but finding balance between Light and Dark.

I’ve only done one pass on the new lore stuff, and not even all of it.

Yeah, one interpretation could be that Rezly Azzir went to the moon and barely survived a battle with the Hive and fell into despair knowing that the Darkness was an extremely powerful foe. And his rampage of murder and destruction might have been him testing various Guardians to see if they could succeed where he failed. He killed Pahanin, who was a Crucible champion. He killed Jaren Ward who was protecting a town. Etc.

As for a balance between Light and Darkness, that's been coming up a lot recently. Of course, there's the Awoken who were born in the conflict between Light and Darkness. More recent was Mara Sow's little proclamation about the subject:

When there is too much Darkness in the universe, Light must cast it away. And when there is too much Light, Darkness must drown it out.

But even more recently, there's a Transcript of the Drifter talking to someone or something... possibly the Nine:

[u.1:02] You showed me a universe with no Light. Dominated by the Dark. What are you arguing? Steadfastness in the Traveler's dogma? Ha ha. That's not obtuse enough for y'all.
[u.1:03] No, no. I don't think so. Because then you showed me a reality without shadows, of pure Light from every angle. Nowhere to hide. Everyone begging to die, like we did in the Dark Age. Light's no gift, but I already knew that. What else you got?

I'm a little concerned that Bungie is going down a path of balance. Not because a balance between Light and Darkness doesn't sound interesting, but because I feel like we've heard a ton from the Darkness and minions of the Darkness, but we've barely heard anything at all from the Light's perspective. If Destiny is ultimately going to end with a balance, I at least want the Light to speak up and make its flaws known. Right now, all we've really heard from is the old Leviathan in Fundament's depths which basically said "the Light lets a bunch of innocents die, but also builds safe places for those that don't. So... good luck with the not dying thing."

I want to hear from the Traveler or from those that created it before "Light is too bright and Darkness to dark" becomes the thing we seek out in Destiny 3...

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Dredgen Yor and A Lack of a Light Side Argument

by Harmanimus @, Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 01:36 (216 days ago) @ Ragashingo

The lack of argument from The Light is particularly glaring. And with the setup from Vanilla D2 especially so. What we get about The Light is bits and pieces. Gaining Light back from shards of The Traveler and the dream sequences being obvious. But I've been generally disappointed that they didn't go anywhere with what the Speaker had been suggesting:

The Light lives in all places... In all things... You can block it... Even try to trap it... But the Light will always find its way.

It feels a little wasted. Things on a long list of missed potentials. The Traveler waking up really hasn't done anything except allow for a more dynamic skybox. Even if it were just more dream sequences, warnings or guidance. Or Ghost having something of value to say for a change. We have a lot more philosophising in the lore about Darkness and I think it is fair to question why we don't get more about Light. Though I do appreciate the perspective we get on it from the Books of Sorrow, it would be nice to have more current thoughts.

I don't think that the end result will be 50/50, even if the story goes to gray.

The Sky is the harder way. But it is kinder.

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Explicitly per character, not per account.

by Harmanimus @, Monday, March 11, 2019, 09:16 (217 days ago) @ ManKitten

I am finding the decision is not anywhere near so clear cut. Even without considering Lore Books not yet available but through data mining. There is a lot of stuff going on between all concerned parties that make for very muddy waters. I’ll definitely be playing both sides of the questline. It will be interesting to see how far they will take the split.

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