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IT'S HAPPENING! NOT A DRILL!... Half-Life: Alyx (Gaming)

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Monday, November 18, 2019, 17:42 (18 days ago)

[image]

[image]

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IT'S HAPPENING! NOT A DRILL!... Half-Life: Alyx

by narcogen ⌂ @, Andover, Massachusetts, Monday, November 18, 2019, 18:03 (18 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

From the image I'd assume it's just Alyx playing Half-Life 2 in VR.

Like, virtual virtual Half-Life.

[image]

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It is, in fact, a VR Game.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Monday, November 18, 2019, 20:01 (18 days ago) @ narcogen

- No text -

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It is, in fact, a VR Game.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, November 19, 2019, 10:02 (17 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

Too bad VR has already died.

I was easily able to borrow a setup for Golem. "Oh you want to borrow my PSVR? Sure. I haven't touched it in like a year." This is from a guy who actually develops VR things.

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Well, clearly it's not dead yet.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Tuesday, November 19, 2019, 10:16 (17 days ago) @ Cody Miller

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Right! And anything associated with Half-Life...

by SonofMacPhisto @, Tuesday, November 19, 2019, 15:45 (17 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

...has been the pinnacle of seriousness and good judgement for years now.

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Not what I ment, but I really don't care to get into it.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Tuesday, November 19, 2019, 20:25 (17 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

- No text -

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It is, in fact, a VR Game.

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, November 20, 2019, 19:54 (16 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Did you play Golem? How was it? The Polygon review was not kind.

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It is, in fact, a VR Game.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, November 20, 2019, 21:54 (16 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Did you play Golem? How was it? The Polygon review was not kind.

Uh, I don't buy digital. Comes out physical on Friday. Then I'll play it.

Unsure if that photo is "official"

by EffortlessFury @, Monday, November 18, 2019, 21:13 (18 days ago) @ narcogen

- No text -

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It's not.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Monday, November 18, 2019, 22:07 (18 days ago) @ EffortlessFury

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I'm kind of disappointed ...

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Tuesday, November 19, 2019, 11:43 (17 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

that this isn't a real image. Getting the gaming equipment into the game would be one way of immersion and making the flaws of the technology seem like part of the story being told. It's like how Blair Witch Project used crappy video tape for effect.

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Half-Life: Alyx Announcement Trailer

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Thursday, November 21, 2019, 15:15 (15 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

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Half-Life: Alyx Announcement Trailer

by cheapLEY @, Thursday, November 21, 2019, 15:37 (15 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

That looks really good. Hope you have a beefy PC!

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The Final Hours of Half-Life: Alyx -- Behind Closed Doors at

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Friday, November 22, 2019, 13:05 (14 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

22 minutes long

(For me the best part of this is seeing the response to the question "Why isn't this Half Life 3".)

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Gender

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, November 30, 2019, 18:15 (6 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

I wonder if people will reject playing as and inhabiting a body of a different gender than they are. For a group of people who throw fits when a female soldier is on a cover or a woman points out misogyny in games, it seems like a lot to ask to have them be a woman while playing in VR.

Maybe they'll finally understand gender dysphoria?

I hope Valve doesn't take the shitty way out and not have your body be represented.

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Gender

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Saturday, November 30, 2019, 18:26 (6 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I wonder if people will reject playing as and inhabiting a body of a different gender than they are. For a group of people who throw fits when a female soldier is on a cover or a woman points out misogyny in games, it seems like a lot to ask to have them be a woman while playing in VR.

Maybe they'll finally understand gender dysphoria?

I hope Valve doesn't take the shitty way out and not have your body be represented.

Do you mean specifically in VR? Because I’ve been playing as female characters for decades. I also have never seen anyone complain about female soldiers on the cover of games, outside the lone case of a game that took place during WWI, where the complaint was due to historical inaccuracy, not misogyny.

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Gender

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, November 30, 2019, 19:13 (6 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

I wonder if people will reject playing as and inhabiting a body of a different gender than they are. For a group of people who throw fits when a female soldier is on a cover or a woman points out misogyny in games, it seems like a lot to ask to have them be a woman while playing in VR.

Maybe they'll finally understand gender dysphoria?

I hope Valve doesn't take the shitty way out and not have your body be represented.


Do you mean specifically in VR? Because I’ve been playing as female characters for decades. I also have never seen anyone complain about female soldiers on the cover of games, outside the lone case of a game that took place during WWI, where the complaint was due to historical inaccuracy, not misogyny.

Yes.

Look down and see your body as a feminine figure in VR. Would most men accept this? And if they do, would they accept this if the game didn't involve shooting / masculine stuff?

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Gender

by SonofMacPhisto @, Sunday, December 01, 2019, 06:29 (5 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Good observation.

Wouldn't bother me in the slightest.

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Gender

by cheapLEY @, Sunday, December 01, 2019, 07:22 (5 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Oh, please.

Half of the guys just used historical accuracy as a dogwhistle. The other half are just stupid for expecting historical accuracy from a Battlefield game in the first place. So much so, that I have a hard time believing anywhere near the majority of complaints about historical accuracy where actually about that in the first place.

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Gender

by Harmanimus @, Sunday, December 01, 2019, 13:24 (5 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Anyone upset about women being represented in armed conflict at any point in history need to stop hiding behind any conception of historical accuracy.

bUt gIrLs cAnT fIgHt

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Sunday, December 01, 2019, 15:50 (5 days ago) @ Harmanimus

/s

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Gender

by SonofMacPhisto @, Sunday, December 01, 2019, 17:18 (5 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Oh, please.

Half of the guys just used historical accuracy as a dogwhistle. The other half are just stupid for expecting historical accuracy from a Battlefield game in the first place. So much so, that I have a hard time believing anywhere near the majority of complaints about historical accuracy where actually about that in the first place.

Hey, they stayed up all night reading Wikipedia about WW1! On the bright side, at least they know now why WW2 has a 2 in it.

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FemShep.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Saturday, November 30, 2019, 18:38 (6 days ago) @ Cody Miller

- No text -

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Oh Mass Effect has a VR version now?

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, November 30, 2019, 19:14 (6 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

- No text -

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As if that makes a diffrence.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Monday, December 02, 2019, 12:46 (4 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I wonder if people will reject playing as and inhabiting a body of a different gender than they are. For a group of people who throw fits when a female soldier is on a cover or a woman points out misogyny in games, it seems like a lot to ask to have them be a woman while playing in VR.

Maybe they'll finally understand gender dysphoria?

I hope Valve doesn't take the shitty way out and not have your body be represented.

I'm all for showerthoughts Cody, but this What-If reeks of kicking shit just so you can yell that it's all over your shoe. This is so 14-and-this-is-deep what is this I can't even.

[image]

And even if we entertain this what-if, this "I wonder" with life, the source of such an "identity" strife where someone is to be apparently so easily effected by simple virtual conveyance would be far beyond some surface bound understanding that we could perceive sitting at our keyboards. Such a concept is beyond any of our casual pay-grade. The end result is arguing for the sake of it, where nothing is solved and the points don't matter.

All in all, this is a fantastic Cody Post™.

Oh... and a decent Cyberpunk topic, with some adjustments.

And that's my two, 'cus I've better stuff to do.

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As if that makes a diffrence.

by SonofMacPhisto @, Monday, December 02, 2019, 14:54 (4 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

And even if we entertain this what-if, this "I wonder" with life, the source of such an "identity" strife where someone is to be apparently so easily effected by simple virtual conveyance would be far beyond some surface bound understanding that we could perceive sitting at our keyboards. Such a concept is beyond any of our casual pay-grade.

Don't talk about anything unless we're an expert. Gotcha.

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If you have something to say, say it.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Monday, December 02, 2019, 22:36 (4 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

- No text -

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If you have something to say, say it.

by SonofMacPhisto @, Tuesday, December 03, 2019, 04:27 (3 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

I wasn't clear?

Harmanimus' post is a fine elaboration.

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No more to say.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Tuesday, December 03, 2019, 09:52 (3 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

Don't talk about anything unless we're an expert. Gotcha.

I wasn't clear?

Harmanimus' post is a fine elaboration.

Snark and Hyperbole rarely ever are. You don't seem to realize that in your attempt you have only added to what you protest. Oh well. I await the deferred.

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No more to say.

by SonofMacPhisto @, Tuesday, December 03, 2019, 10:28 (3 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

Don't talk about anything unless we're an expert. Gotcha.

I wasn't clear?

Harmanimus' post is a fine elaboration.


Snark and Hyperbole rarely ever are. You don't seem to realize that in your attempt you have only added to what you protest. Oh well. I await the deferred.

If I've misunderstood your point feel free to correct me. If you're simply annoyed I dismissed your point so readily, that's on you.

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Thx. No Thx. *Gifv*

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Tuesday, December 03, 2019, 11:01 (3 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto
edited by INSANEdrive, Tuesday, December 03, 2019, 11:15

Don't talk about anything unless we're an expert. Gotcha.

I wasn't clear?

Harmanimus' post is a fine elaboration.


Snark and Hyperbole rarely ever are. You don't seem to realize that in your attempt you have only added to what you protest. Oh well. I await the deferred.


If I've misunderstood your point feel free to correct me. If you're simply annoyed I dismissed your point so readily, that's on you.

Nah, I'll pass this time. I grow tired to the abuse of my good faith. I hate this, but if you can't see past your own nose, that is your own problem. Everything you need to extrapolate from is there, including the added verse you made.

I suppose you'll have to await the deferred too.


Edit: Saw this. Had to add. I regret nothing.

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As if that makes a diffrence.

by Harmanimus @, Monday, December 02, 2019, 16:26 (4 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

I mean. You’re putting forth an image that is reflective of the core concepts of solipsism as if it is adolescent rubbish. Rumination on self actualization and the impacts of social pressures on how that is outwardly expressed is probably one of the best and most digestible things Cody has presented in quite some time. This is a huge topic with many rabbit holes. But he’s actually highlighting a specific circumstance that makes for an even more interesting position for the question.

Also arguments aren’t made to convince your opponent to agree with you, but to ensure that others may see that there are alternatives to your opponent’s conclusions.

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As if that makes a diffrence.

by SonofMacPhisto @, Monday, December 02, 2019, 17:46 (4 days ago) @ Harmanimus

I mean. You’re putting forth an image that is reflective of the core concepts of solipsism as if it is adolescent rubbish. Rumination on self actualization and the impacts of social pressures on how that is outwardly expressed is probably one of the best and most digestible things Cody has presented in quite some time. This is a huge topic with many rabbit holes. But he’s actually highlighting a specific circumstance that makes for an even more interesting position for the question.

Also arguments aren’t made to convince your opponent to agree with you, but to ensure that others may see that there are alternatives to your opponent’s conclusions.

Posts like this are why I'm glad I never went far from this place.

I did a lot of this sort of thinking during my time with Elite: Dangerous. It was a good sandbox to explore power, human nature, and how those things interact.

Amazing how games give us the opportunity to play and explore ourselves and our world.

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As if that makes a diffrence.

by cheapLEY @, Monday, December 02, 2019, 17:49 (4 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

I did a lot of this sort of thinking during my time with Elite: Dangerous. It was a good sandbox to explore power, human nature, and how those things interact.

You must be a whole lot more introspective (and smarter) than I am. I mostly spent a lot of time being bored during my time with Elite: Dangerous, despite the fact that flying those spaceships is really cool. That game needs more "game" in it. I want to love it so much. ):

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As if that makes a diffrence.

by SonofMacPhisto @, Monday, December 02, 2019, 17:58 (4 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I did a lot of this sort of thinking during my time with Elite: Dangerous. It was a good sandbox to explore power, human nature, and how those things interact.


You must be a whole lot more introspective (and smarter) than I am. I mostly spent a lot of time being bored during my time with Elite: Dangerous, despite the fact that flying those spaceships is really cool. That game needs more "game" in it. I want to love it so much. ):

All of our fun was absolutely in spite of the game, that's for sure. It provided just enough of a framework for player groups to form and fight things out EvE style. Really dramatic stuff.

For example, my friends and I lead a guerrilla war against a literal player empire. Was absolutely bonkers from start to finish. All of it emergent and driven by people and their passions.

Unfortunately, thanks to amateur level developers and a thin skinned player base a lot of that has gone away over the past year or so. There's no stakes, you know? It's OK though - twas an ambitious project that just couldn't quite make it. Better it happened than not at all.

Gods above if someone gets the Pretend Spaceperson game right though.

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Sense & Action

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Monday, December 02, 2019, 22:32 (4 days ago) @ Harmanimus

I mean. You’re putting forth an image that is reflective of the core concepts of solipsism as if it is adolescent rubbish. Rumination on self actualization and the impacts of social pressures on how that is outwardly expressed is probably one of the best and most digestible things Cody has presented in quite some time. This is a huge topic with many rabbit holes. But he’s actually highlighting a specific circumstance that makes for an even more interesting position for the question.

Also arguments aren’t made to convince your opponent to agree with you, but to ensure that others may see that there are alternatives to your opponent’s conclusions.

I know. I did mention Cyberpunk, did I not? It's not what he said, it's how he said it... as I suppose it tends to be with me. As I recall, I've said that a few times before here.

Also, I've never liked the "argument" concept. More often then not, it always becomes a contest of ego instead of a contest of exploring perspectives you may not of comprehended otherwise. Plus passions tend to get involved, and then everything gets crazy. Winning! Feh. Open the door, and lets explore such brilliant sorrow together, if one can.

That's the simple version anyway.

Then again I suppose doing it "right and proper" would be rather energy intensive wouldn't it.

But Hey! Let's entertain this for but a moment. I have spoken what I see in all its beautiful fallibility, would you have me do anything else?

Gender

by EffortlessFury @, Sunday, December 01, 2019, 00:09 (6 days ago) @ Cody Miller

It is hard enough to try and render arms using only the positional data of the headset and the two controllers. There won't be a torso - I guarantee it.

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Gender

by SonofMacPhisto @, Sunday, December 01, 2019, 06:30 (5 days ago) @ EffortlessFury

It is hard enough to try and render arms using only the positional data of the headset and the two controllers. There won't be a torso - I guarantee it.

Torso or no, we live in an age where people demand refunds because of virtual baptism (Bioshock: Infinite).

Some idiot will act the fool for sure.

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Gender

by cheapLEY @, Sunday, December 01, 2019, 07:07 (5 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

Whereas I just wanted a refund for playing through the dogshit that was Bioshock Infinite.

Sorry, I know that doesn’t add anything to the discussion. I just really hate that game.

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Gender

by SonofMacPhisto @, Sunday, December 01, 2019, 17:15 (5 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Whereas I just wanted a refund for playing through the dogshit that was Bioshock Infinite.

Sorry, I know that doesn’t add anything to the discussion. I just really hate that game.


I liked it! It's OK you didn't like it. More legitimate reason to ask for a refund for sure.

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Gender

by Blackt1g3r @, Login is from an untrusted domain in AZ, Sunday, December 01, 2019, 13:26 (5 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I’m fairly sure I saw something that said your body isn’t visible.

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eye roll

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, December 02, 2019, 10:48 (4 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I wonder if people will reject playing as and inhabiting a body of a different gender than they are. For a group of people who throw fits when a female soldier is on a cover or a woman points out misogyny in games, it seems like a lot to ask to have them be a woman while playing in VR.

Maybe they'll finally understand gender dysphoria?

I hope Valve doesn't take the shitty way out and not have your body be represented.

If someone somewhere did have an issue with it, I don't see VR as significantly different from an FPS or even a third-person game in that regard--plus [what cruelLegacey said]. I think as a mass phenomenon among gamers this is a straw man (or person), but it seems fairly common these days to assume the idiocy or bigotry of a big swath of the population on any subject (and it certainly is flattering to do so).

This is the other side of the same coin, but I have a huge issue with the argument that I can't relate to or identify with a protagonist who doesn't share my physical attributes or biographical details. F that noise all the home.

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eye roll

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, December 02, 2019, 12:10 (4 days ago) @ Kermit
edited by Cody Miller, Monday, December 02, 2019, 12:14

If someone somewhere did have an issue with it, I don't see VR as significantly different from an FPS or even a third-person game in that regard--plus [what cruelLegacey said]. I think as a mass phenomenon among gamers this is a straw man (or person), but it seems fairly common these days to assume the idiocy or bigotry of a big swath of the population on any subject (and it certainly is flattering to do so).

I don't assume idiocy or blatant bigotry. Those people are the tip of the iceberg. And what you don't see are all the subtle biases that are milder version of this that are nevertheless harmful. And if you don't see a difference between VR and third person in this regard I don't know what to tell you.

I am not talking about just PLAYING as a female character. I'm talking about empathizing with one. And this is something people struggle with. Even me.

This is the other side of the same coin, but I have a huge issue with the argument that I can't relate to or identify with a protagonist who doesn't share my physical attributes or biographical details. F that noise all the home.

Why then do nearly all playable female protagonists in games either:

1. Fetishized (e.g. Bayonetta)
2. Masculine (anyone doing masculine things like shooting and fighting)

When are you ever asked to actually identify with a female character? It's not often.

Why did Dontnod go from publisher to publisher dozens of times, only to hear the same thing? 'We love it, but can you make Max a boy?"

You've seen Ex Machina, which is the perfect example. The Turing test was a metaphor to see if men could empathize with a woman. And if you hated the ending, then you failed. There's a reason why Caleb was set up as the main character. Why the audience was primed to see the world through his view. The test then was whether you could empathize with Ava. And judging by reactions very few could.

A comic is going around about the author's experience as a kid. In class, they were asked to talk about a fictional character they admired. He chose a female character, and was laughed at. The teacher then suggested he choose a boy character instead. Meanwhile the girls were free to choose male or female characters to admire with no backlash or embarrassment.

We actively discourage men to identify with women. There's a big push for strong female role models for women. But where is the push for strong female role models for MEN?

First and third person games still rely on empathy. The character is not you. You see them on screen or else in cutscenes. But in VR? It's you. So it's a fantastic opportunity. But this is squandered when all you do is shoot and render disembodied hands.

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eye roll

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, December 02, 2019, 18:12 (4 days ago) @ Cody Miller
edited by Kermit, Monday, December 02, 2019, 18:18

If someone somewhere did have an issue with it, I don't see VR as significantly different from an FPS or even a third-person game in that regard--plus [what cruelLegacey said]. I think as a mass phenomenon among gamers this is a straw man (or person), but it seems fairly common these days to assume the idiocy or bigotry of a big swath of the population on any subject (and it certainly is flattering to do so).


I don't assume idiocy or blatant bigotry. Those people are the tip of the iceberg. And what you don't see are all the subtle biases that are milder version of this that are nevertheless harmful. And if you don't see a difference between VR and third person in this regard I don't know what to tell you.

I see a lot, friend, and just to be clear: I don't buy into the Anita S. narrative about harm overall. I find her conclusions simplistic and unscientific--she reminds me of Jack Thompson. And yes, there is a difference between third person and VR, but you skipped over my mention of first person, which is much less different. I do get your point--there is a weird feeling with VR when you look at your legs and they're yours/not yours simultaneously, but your post was explicitly about rejecting the experience because of the gender, when gamers have been inhabiting characters of the opposite gender for a good while (and men have been identifying with female protagonists [and often very effectively creating them] for a very long time). As I said, I don't think VR represents a leap significant enough to matter here.

I am not talking about just PLAYING as a female character. I'm talking about empathizing with one. And this is something people struggle with. Even me.

Of course you can speak for yourself.

This is the other side of the same coin, but I have a huge issue with the argument that I can't relate to or identify with a protagonist who doesn't share my physical attributes or biographical details. F that noise all the home.


Why then do nearly all playable female protagonists in games either:

1. Fetishized (e.g. Bayonetta)

It's a fun fantasy and young men especially get a little buzz from female nudity. Maybe they shouldn't (but they do and always will), and maybe it represents a gateway drug to other media that can be damaging to their relationships, and maybe game developers should ideally make their female protagonists fully clothed and normally proportioned females (like Konoko), but I'm not a stickler for dictating what's appropriate in creative works (and I remember when anyone who tried to do so was ridiculed as a prude). Similarly, I didn't scowl at the little gasps I heard in the theater when Brad Pitt removed his shirt in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. Human beings naturally respond to human beauty, and I don't know how we can expect otherwise.

2. Masculine (anyone doing masculine things like shooting and fighting)

Action games gonna have action.

When are you ever asked to actually identify with a female character? It's not often.

Most games suck at characterization generally, but some are getting there as the story telling matures. Given the audience for most computer games has traditionally been male, developers and publishers might play it safer than they should. Not the gamers' fault.

Why did Dontnod go from publisher to publisher dozens of times, only to hear the same thing? 'We love it, but can you make Max a boy?"

Because publishers are risk-adverse--that they perceive a female protagonist as a risk is the problem, but I'll get back the problem in a moment. (Seems that Dontnod now have male protagonists in their newest game. Please don't call that a regression.)

You've seen Ex Machina, which is the perfect example. The Turing test was a metaphor to see if men could empathize with a woman. And if you hated the ending, then you failed. There's a reason why Caleb was set up as the main character. Why the audience was primed to see the world through his view. The test then was whether you could empathize with Ava. And judging by reactions very few could.

I didn't much care for the ending, and I reject your hypothesis that the reason I didn't care for it was that I couldn't empathize with a woman. It's ludicrous to claim that that's the only reason why someone might not care for the movie. Maybe I thought it was overly didactic in its insistence that I get its "message."

A comic is going around about the author's experience as a kid. In class, they were asked to talk about a fictional character they admired. He chose a female character, and was laughed at. The teacher then suggested he choose a boy character instead. Meanwhile the girls were free to choose male or female characters to admire with no backlash or embarrassment.

Is this a real anecdote? I mean, I believe it, but I don't know that it's dispositive for your case.

We actively discourage men to identify with women.

I think this in kind of true, but what I mostly see is denial that it's possible for men to identify with women. Psst. We're getting closer to the problem.

>There's a big push for strong female role models for women. But where is the push for strong female role models for MEN?

I'm not sure what you mean exactly, but if you mean male protagonists that show their feminine side, I can list many sensitive male protagonists dating back 50 years or more. Holden Caulfield, call your office.

First and third person games still rely on empathy. The character is not you. You see them on screen or else in cutscenes.

Not in Half Life.

But in VR? It's you. So it's a fantastic opportunity. But this is squandered when all you do is shoot and render disembodied hands.

I'd argue that when I read a book with a female narrator, that's more immersive than VR. And I have no problem having empathy for the protagonist. Some men might, but I think overstating that problem is the bigger problem. We're being taught that we can't understand anyone who doesn't share our identity, and the double-bind is that we're told we should identify even while we're told we can't. That's how mixed up we are about these issues. If gaming does affect how men treat women, the problem is games' addictiveness, and how that can keep men isolated from social situations in which they learn to effectively interact with flesh and blood human beings.

Lest anyone try to read between the lines and attribute all kinds of crap to me, I believe all people should be treated with respect. I don't care for exploitive media, but i also think we can easily err in over emphasizing its effect on behavior. I don't think most media makes us shoot or rape each other, and I think most of us can tell the difference between fantasy and reality. Well-drawn characters of any gender in any creative medium can serve as role models to anyone, as they always have. As a kid, I loved Scout from To Kill a Mockingbird. My best (female) friend idealized Huck Finn. It's all good.

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eye roll

by SonofMacPhisto @, Monday, December 02, 2019, 18:50 (4 days ago) @ Kermit

We're being taught that we can't understand anyone who doesn't share our identity, and the double-bind is that we're told we should identify even while we're told we can't.

Good post. I want to pluck this out and address it with a personal story.

Currently when it comes to the "culture wars" or whatever I live under a very comfortable rock. That said, my spouse has dealt with a chronic illness (lupus) for the past ten years so I've gotten quite a bit of experience on empathizing with her and her situation. It's very, very difficult to do but I got pretty OK with it.

This past year I was diagnosed with a chronic disease of my own (type 1 diabetes). We've switched roles and I have to say the understanding and wisdom between us has grown by leaps and bounds. Wild shit, I tell you.

You really can't judge someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. When it comes to gender and identity, I like to think we're just learning how difficult it is. In the end, absolutely worth it.

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eye roll

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, December 02, 2019, 20:08 (4 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

We're being taught that we can't understand anyone who doesn't share our identity, and the double-bind is that we're told we should identify even while we're told we can't.


Good post. I want to pluck this out and address it with a personal story.

Currently when it comes to the "culture wars" or whatever I live under a very comfortable rock. That said, my spouse has dealt with a chronic illness (lupus) for the past ten years so I've gotten quite a bit of experience on empathizing with her and her situation. It's very, very difficult to do but I got pretty OK with it.

This past year I was diagnosed with a chronic disease of my own (type 1 diabetes). We've switched roles and I have to say the understanding and wisdom between us has grown by leaps and bounds. Wild shit, I tell you.

You really can't judge someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. When it comes to gender and identity, I like to think we're just learning how difficult it is. In the end, absolutely worth it.

It's good to be under the rock. Sorry for your troubles, my friend. Love is not love which alters when it alteration finds, a wise man once said. My best to you both.

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eye roll

by SonofMacPhisto @, Tuesday, December 03, 2019, 04:29 (3 days ago) @ Kermit

It's good to be under the rock. Sorry for your troubles, my friend. Love is not love which alters when it alteration finds, a wise man once said. My best to you both.

All good my man, thanks.

I hope the point I was trying to make was clear. I'm consistently surprised how difficult it is to empathize with people. The skill ceiling, so to speak, is unlimited.

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eye roll

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Tuesday, December 03, 2019, 06:10 (3 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

It's good to be under the rock. Sorry for your troubles, my friend. Love is not love which alters when it alteration finds, a wise man once said. My best to you both.


All good my man, thanks.

I hope the point I was trying to make was clear. I'm consistently surprised how difficult it is to empathize with people. The skill ceiling, so to speak, is unlimited.

I got it. I’m a literature guy who got into it at a time when the academic fad was to deconstruct its value and essentially deconstruct the possibility for words to have a meaning that can be commonly understood. To my mind the value of literature has always been to improve our ability to empathize. If it’s not obvious I’m pretty passionately against narratives that make the barriers between us seem insurmountable. On a personal note when I was younger and actively writing my fiction was more often than not told from the female perspective. That’s just what came out. I got praise for it from women. Today I don’t think that would be acceptable by some on ideological grounds. Frankly I think that’s bull.

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eye roll

by SonofMacPhisto @, Tuesday, December 03, 2019, 06:31 (3 days ago) @ Kermit

It's good to be under the rock. Sorry for your troubles, my friend. Love is not love which alters when it alteration finds, a wise man once said. My best to you both.


All good my man, thanks.

I hope the point I was trying to make was clear. I'm consistently surprised how difficult it is to empathize with people. The skill ceiling, so to speak, is unlimited.


I got it. I’m a literature guy who got into it at a time when the academic fad was to deconstruct its value and essentially deconstruct the possibility for words to have a meaning that can be commonly understood. To my mind the value of literature has always been to improve our ability to empathize. If it’s not obvious I’m pretty passionately against narratives that make the barriers between us seem insurmountable. On a personal note when I was younger and actively writing my fiction was more often than not told from the female perspective. That’s just what came out. I got praise for it from women. Today I don’t think that would be acceptable by some on ideological grounds. Frankly I think that’s bull.

Interesting! I've not felt much success writing the female voice, though to be fair I've not attempted it all that much. From what I've heard, it really shouldn't be all that different from a so-called male voice. Problem starts with me, I'm quite sure.

Completely agree that barriers between people are not insurmountable. Will we know each other perfectly? No, of course not, but we can get good enough. ;)

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Line 7: "It is the star to every wand'ring bark,"

by Pyromancy @, Wednesday, December 04, 2019, 11:47 (2 days ago) @ Kermit

Love is not love which alters when it alteration finds, a wise man once said.

Line 7 :
"It is the star to every wand'ring bark,"


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+1

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, December 04, 2019, 12:30 (2 days ago) @ Pyromancy

- No text -

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by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, December 02, 2019, 22:59 (4 days ago) @ Kermit

I'm not sure what you mean exactly, but if you mean male protagonists that show their feminine side, I can list many sensitive male protagonists dating back 50 years or more. Holden Caulfield, call your office.

Lol. Holden was absolutely not a role model, and the whole point of the book was to show he was kind of shit and needed to grow up.

Lest anyone try to read between the lines and attribute all kinds of crap to me, I believe all people should be treated with respect. I don't care for exploitive media, but i also think we can easily err in over emphasizing its effect on behavior. I don't think most media makes us shoot or rape each other, and I think most of us can tell the difference between fantasy and reality.

It's more subtle than that. It's the accumulation of cultural ideas and attitudes expressed in media that get reinforced. And yes, over time this does affect you.

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eye roll

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, December 04, 2019, 09:43 (2 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I'm not sure what you mean exactly, but if you mean male protagonists that show their feminine side, I can list many sensitive male protagonists dating back 50 years or more. Holden Caulfield, call your office.


Lol. Holden was absolutely not a role model, and the whole point of the book was to show he was kind of shit and needed to grow up.

A-ha! You just explained why he was a role model for me. :) I'm smiling, but I'm making a serious point.

Lest anyone try to read between the lines and attribute all kinds of crap to me, I believe all people should be treated with respect. I don't care for exploitive media, but i also think we can easily err in over emphasizing its effect on behavior. I don't think most media makes us shoot or rape each other, and I think most of us can tell the difference between fantasy and reality.


It's more subtle than that. It's the accumulation of cultural ideas and attitudes expressed in media that get reinforced. And yes, over time this does affect you.

Probably so, but much depends on what "it" is. If "it" includes the notion that human history simply consists of a nefarious patriarchy that subjugated women, then yes, I think "it's" more subtle than that.

You originally brought up an interesting point. Your assumption of who (and by implication, how many) would dislike playing as Alyx is what stopped me. I see this kind of characterization a lot. Everyone who disagrees with me is throwing fits, blowing dogwhistles, or they are idiots clutching at pearls. It makes actual debate difficult.

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speaking of Bayonetta

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Friday, December 06, 2019, 08:53 (4 hours, 58 minutes ago) @ Cody Miller

Would you buy it to get a remasterd version of Vanquish?

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speaking of Bayonetta

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, December 06, 2019, 10:33 (3 hours, 18 minutes ago) @ Kermit

Would you buy it to get a remasterd version of Vanquish?

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