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Unreal Engine 5 on PS5 (Gaming)

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 16:57 (16 days ago)

Epic unveiled Unreal Engine 5 with a demo apparently running in real time on PS5 development hardware. It’s the first thing I’ve seen that really feels “next gen.”

I’m no developer, so I don’t know how “real” this is, but it’s a very impressive demo.

The thing I’ve seen quite a bit about is the Nanite system, which apparently eliminates the need for low-poly versions of the sculpted models. The engine just handles that dynamically. I suspect it’s not that simple, and I’d love to hear actual developers weigh in on it (which I haven’t seen), but it sounds like it could help mitigate a huge part of the normal asset pipeline.

The lighting stuff seems really impressive, too, but I can barely even comprehend the layman’s version of what any of that entails.

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Unreal Engine 5 on PS5

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 18:24 (16 days ago) @ cheapLEY
edited by Cody Miller, Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 18:30

Let's just shuffle through a crack in the wall like everybody does in FF7 remake!

Also spoiler: this was not running in 4K. It was 1440p. Told you guys. 4K isn't worth it.

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It's useing a dynamic resolution technique.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 19:04 (16 days ago) @ Cody Miller

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Unreal Engine 5 on PS5

by Vortech @, A Fourth Wheel, Saturday, May 16, 2020, 14:18 (13 days ago) @ Cody Miller

You know those wall cracks are the new loading elevator, right? They are in all kinds of games.

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Unreal Engine 5 on PS5

by Pyromancy @, Sunday, May 17, 2020, 11:36 (12 days ago) @ Vortech
edited by Pyromancy, Sunday, May 17, 2020, 12:32

You know those wall cracks are the new loading elevator, right? They are in all kinds of games.

Epic Games, Unreal Engine creators, has used a spokesperson to tell Fauxtaku that the crevice scene in the Unreal Engine 5 demo was not a loading trigger and instead was used to show off some up close visuals (and if you listen closely you can hear the audio adjust with a depth of field effect as well). Given the reporting source we can make of that what we will.

Part of the Sony (PS5) presentation that was supposed to be given at Games Developers Conference(GDC) adressed Loading and how Sony are trying to use hardware (along with good development) to attempt to work to eliminate excessive 'Check-in' and those old action stopping Loading triggers we have grown to tolerate over the years.

https://youtu.be/ph8LyNIT9sg?t=529

The entire video was really cool to watch a few months back. I will admit, for the average console player, the presentation is fairly dry and technical. Which is understandable since this talk was supposed to be a roadmap for the development community, not necessarily a customer facing/marketing press conference. I on the other hand truly enjoyed learning about all the technical aspects coming.
I don't claim to know anything more than the next guy about development, integration, and optimization, but I truly love hardware and have a bit of understanding there.

The section near the end (starting ~38:27) regarding audio and the audio engine they are planning to use in PS5 is particularly exciting. Theres a bit of talk about 3D audio, Head Related Transfer Functions(HRTFs) and such, and I kept thinking about how Marty has been talking about immersive audio, Fourier Transforms, and HRTFs for YEARS (The audio implementation by Marty and Team in Golem was absolutely otherworldly)

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Unreal Engine 5 on PS5

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Saturday, May 16, 2020, 14:38 (13 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Totally random and anecdotal personal opinion, but when I would play D2 on PC, I’d run it in 1080p (because i’m using a super cheap monitor that only goes up to 1080p) with the frame rate at 60fps and all other settings on max. Meanwhile on my Xbox One X, I have the game running in 4K HDR, along with the visual downgrades that come with the console version (30fps, narrower field of view, etc). And in my personal opinion, the game still looks and feels way better on PC. Obviously, in an ideal world, I think the game would look even better on PC if I were able to run it at 4K in addition to all the other settings, but in a world where I have to choose between frame rate and resolution, 60fps over 30fps makes a far bigger difference than 4K over 1080p. I’d even say the wider field of view on PC is a bigger deal than 4K.

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#codywasright

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, May 16, 2020, 16:11 (13 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

- No text -

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#codywasright

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Tuesday, May 19, 2020, 09:36 (10 days ago) @ Cody Miller

We live in a scary world where Cruel's anecdotal experiences means that Cody is right.

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It's a big deal.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 18:40 (16 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I was debating earlier about posting this here, and I decided not to as... most of the BIG stuff is in the jargon. And there is ALOT of jargon and a bunch of stuff you need to know before the jargon makes sense... BUT! as it's here now, I guess I'll give the short and long a try anyway.

What is being shown here, apparently, is a TOTAL GAME CHANGER in the classic pipeline in polygonal asset creation. For 20 years, really complex details have been faked using maps that interact with the engine lighting system. By the way, the reason we, in Destiny 2, have no control over when our flashlight can go on or off, is that there is a limit on the amount of real time lights you can have in a space. Otherwise, lights are faked using... various long held techniques.

Well, what they are selling here is that with this tech, Game Devs no longer need to fake anything, they can put the RAW SCULPTS into the game. With that, plus the REALTIME Global Illumination, which... I can't over state how important lighting is - it's how you see, and it's a mood - IN REAL TIME!? The Big Sculpt detail, mixed with that!? Well, see for yourself. This there for cuts out a HUGE portion of Dev Time that would have been needed to be used to make an asset. I'd say roughly a 3rd of the pipeline process is suddenly no longer needed. What could you do if you could make something 1/3rd faster, that looks better, and you have more time to make look even better?

As for the Niagara Particle system, which has been in beta for the last two years and just came out as officially production-ready with the latest release of Unreal 4.25, is that the particle system is no longer self contained with in the data stream. Thus, the bugs move when light hits them, the bats move dynamaicly when geo is in their way and so forth. It's cool shit & it's a big deal.

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Thanks!

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 18:48 (16 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

I've been telling some buddies all day that this seems like a big deal. Glad to get your perspective.

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Thanks!

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 19:30 (16 days ago) @ Kermit

I've been telling some buddies all day that this seems like a big deal. Glad to get your perspective.

It's only as good as the games people make with it.

What we really need is a quality lip sync / facial system.

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GDC 2016

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 19:47 (16 days ago) @ Cody Miller
edited by INSANEdrive, Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 19:53

I've been telling some buddies all day that this seems like a big deal. Glad to get your perspective.


It's only as good as the games people make with it.

What we really need is a quality lip sync / facial system.

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Thanks!

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 19:54 (16 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I've been telling some buddies all day that this seems like a big deal. Glad to get your perspective.


It's only as good as the games people make with it.

What we really need is a quality lip sync / facial system.

This video is about an advance in lighting and object rendering in games. I'm excited about that.

And when someone comes up with the quality lip sync / facial system you mentioned, we both can get excited about that.

I promise you I won't say to you "it's only good as the games people make with it." Advances like these make it easier to focus on what's really hard--making a great game.

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Thanks!

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 21:03 (16 days ago) @ Kermit

I've been telling some buddies all day that this seems like a big deal. Glad to get your perspective.


It's only as good as the games people make with it.

What we really need is a quality lip sync / facial system.


This video is about an advance in lighting and object rendering in games. I'm excited about that.

Me too? Sorry if you thought I wasn't.

Thanks!

by EffortlessFury @, Thursday, May 14, 2020, 06:45 (15 days ago) @ Cody Miller

IF you don't mind me saying, what I'm seeing here and at other points in time is a failure to acknowledge the good things. If you're like me, sometimes you might assume that the good things are implied/obvious, but they're not. You gotta make sure to balance the criticism with at least equal praise, otherwise you come off like you're shitting on everything when you might not be trying to.

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Thanks!

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, May 14, 2020, 18:26 (15 days ago) @ EffortlessFury

IF you don't mind me saying, what I'm seeing here and at other points in time is a failure to acknowledge the good things. If you're like me, sometimes you might assume that the good things are implied/obvious, but they're not. You gotta make sure to balance the criticism with at least equal praise, otherwise you come off like you're shitting on everything when you might not be trying to.

It's advancement for sure, and it's hard and important work. However, I've written before about the growing Aesthetic and Mechanics mismatch in games. It's complicated because they are in a sense the same, but I see the non aesthetic advancements as significantly more needed for games in the future.

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Thanks!

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Thursday, May 14, 2020, 19:32 (15 days ago) @ Cody Miller

IF you don't mind me saying, what I'm seeing here and at other points in time is a failure to acknowledge the good things. If you're like me, sometimes you might assume that the good things are implied/obvious, but they're not. You gotta make sure to balance the criticism with at least equal praise, otherwise you come off like you're shitting on everything when you might not be trying to.


It's advancement for sure, and it's hard and important work. However, I've written before about the growing Aesthetic and Mechanics mismatch in games. It's complicated because they are in a sense the same, but I see the non aesthetic advancements as significantly more needed for games in the future.

We all have our pet topics. And we all have been guilty of saying "However [insert non sequitur pet topic here]. I probably could've responded in a nicer way. Initially, I thought of writing, "Yeah, of course it's true that games can have fantastic graphics and still suck. I mean, everybody know tha--." At this point in my thought process I felt less nice.

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Sure! It's not all roses though.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 19:45 (16 days ago) @ Kermit
edited by INSANEdrive, Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 19:56

So, first I should note, that in all likely hood this generation may very well be the end of what we know as consoles in the home. It will probably require an internet connection, much like Destiny does. It was always going to be this way, somehow. The CLOUD! The CLOUD! The CLOUD! Stadia is only the beginning. Google gets to say they were first, I guess. Cool story Google.

That said, hardware still matters. They are pushing BILLIONS of Triangles!? Unless they have something fancy prepared in the compression, I hope y'all are ready to see games that are multiples of terabytes. 20 TB? 50 TB? Like, I know some of you remember when a Megabyte was all... OMG so MUCH DATA! Well, Welcome to the Future... IF someone wants to push it that hard. Remember, this is a tech demo. I'm SURE there is some kerfuffle that makes this less seamless then one may imagine. STILL a game changer, but this is reality. We still have to survive 2020, so on so on. In all likely hood, what we'll see is models that have ACTUAL bevels, instead of faked ones. So on so on, many moving parts, and I can feel my self starting to babble... moving on.

Based on what I've read (which is jargony), this is possible now is because the computation power of modern GPUs, the speed of next generation SSD architectures and NVMe Memory (though I should note that the PS5 apparently has specialized I/O hardware to get around some bottle necks). There is so much data being pushed through the pipes, and I can only imagine how much heat there is being generated. Possibly. Maybe.

At this point though, I am at the limit of my jargony knowhow. I'm going to drop some tweets here, for fun, and move along. Interesting stuff awaits.










Edit: ....Ohhhh! They're encoding geometry data into textures! Fascinating...

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Sure! It's not all roses though.

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 20:34 (16 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

To address the space issue:

Will we finally see the ability to install only the content we want? The new Modern Warfare is like 175 gigs now. Why can’t I delete the campaign if I no longer want it?

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Sure! It's not all roses though.

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Thursday, May 14, 2020, 08:03 (15 days ago) @ cheapLEY

To address the space issue:

Will we finally see the ability to install only the content we want? The new Modern Warfare is like 175 gigs now. Why can’t I delete the campaign if I no longer want it?

I mean, the short answer from a software engineers perspective is that there is a lot of integration that we just don't know about. There is a lot of code that is being used. If we are talking about pure graphical assets like textures, boxes, whatever they use in the levels but never used anywhere else? Possible. But again there would have to be a fair amount of work to "physically" separate that from the rest of the game. That also just adds another level of bugs that could crop up.

Maybe when games become this big down the line that might be worth the effort. Especially if it's built this way from the ground up. You also have to say these things are being used for the campaign only and can't be used for anything else because if the user decides to not download them they won't be available. And that's only if the campaign is one of the things that you can choose not to download. If there are multiple sections of a game... man that would get complicated. I'm not saying it can't be done, but there would have to be a pretty clear plan to do that on top of you know, making a game worth playing :D

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Sure! It's not all roses though.

by cheapLEY @, Thursday, May 14, 2020, 08:27 (15 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

I guess I never really thought about that. Makes sense.

But you also have things like Uncharted, where you can choose multiplayer or single player to download first so you can play while the other downloads in the background. Or the Master Chief collection which does allow you to pick and choose.

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Sure! It's not all roses though.

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Thursday, May 14, 2020, 09:39 (15 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I guess I never really thought about that. Makes sense.

But you also have things like Uncharted, where you can choose multiplayer or single player to download first so you can play while the other downloads in the background. Or the Master Chief collection which does allow you to pick and choose.

Which I think was totally a design decision from the get go, especially the case of Master Chief Collection. Also, just take all of what I've said as a rambling software engineer in a completely different tech field than games :D

I think it's totally possible to do what you have suggested. I just don't know what limitations are set when doing it and how much extra work and upkeep that is required to have this feature. I totally think it can be done though. And as you mentioned with the size of games, if the hardware power and thus the size of games increase faster than efficient HD space and IO capabilities we could totally see the software side compensating (hopefully only in the short term).

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Architecture.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Thursday, May 14, 2020, 09:43 (15 days ago) @ cheapLEY

To address the space issue:

Will we finally see the ability to install only the content we want? The new Modern Warfare is like 175 gigs now. Why can’t I delete the campaign if I no longer want it?

Impossible to say. Even if I was the guy making such systems for the future, I'm pretty sure that would be NDA. It all depends how heavily the cloud is being used, and the architecture (which is the key word in my mind) for all this technical wizardry. Unless such a system is absolutely required, it's up to those who make. Developer to developer.

At this point, instinct has me say to not count on it brother, and let yourself be pleasantly surprised.

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Architecture.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, May 14, 2020, 13:03 (15 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

To address the space issue:

Will we finally see the ability to install only the content we want? The new Modern Warfare is like 175 gigs now. Why can’t I delete the campaign if I no longer want it?


Impossible to say. Even if I was the guy making such systems for the future, I'm pretty sure that would be NDA. It all depends how heavily the cloud is being used, and the architecture (which is the key word in my mind) for all this technical wizardry. Unless such a system is absolutely required, it's up to those who make. Developer to developer.

At this point, instinct has me say to not count on it brother, and let yourself be pleasantly surprised.

Look at the switch. This isn't a problem because the games come on speedy cards. There's no installing. I see 120GB SSDs going for 20 bucks these days. Imagine next next generation if instead of inserting a card you insert the game on its own little SSD. No need to install because it's already reading off fast media. Someday when SSD tech gets even cheaper, this would be the dream option.

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Architecture.

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Thursday, May 14, 2020, 14:23 (15 days ago) @ Cody Miller

To address the space issue:

Will we finally see the ability to install only the content we want? The new Modern Warfare is like 175 gigs now. Why can’t I delete the campaign if I no longer want it?


Impossible to say. Even if I was the guy making such systems for the future, I'm pretty sure that would be NDA. It all depends how heavily the cloud is being used, and the architecture (which is the key word in my mind) for all this technical wizardry. Unless such a system is absolutely required, it's up to those who make. Developer to developer.

At this point, instinct has me say to not count on it brother, and let yourself be pleasantly surprised.


Look at the switch. This isn't a problem because the games come on speedy cards. There's no installing. I see 120GB SSDs going for 20 bucks these days. Imagine next next generation if instead of inserting a card you insert the game on its own little SSD. No need to install because it's already reading off fast media. Someday when SSD tech gets even cheaper, this would be the dream option.

There is a constant battle over the ages of Internet speed vs media storage. Technically shipping media storage in bulk is still faster :D But it's not practical

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Architecture.

by cheapLEY @, Thursday, May 14, 2020, 15:51 (15 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

It’s also wasteful. Why buy dozens or hundreds of smaller drives that will ultimately end up in the garbage at some point when I can just use one?

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Architecture.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, May 14, 2020, 18:27 (15 days ago) @ cheapLEY

It’s also wasteful. Why buy dozens or hundreds of smaller drives that will ultimately end up in the garbage at some point when I can just use one?

It's what we've been doing forever. Any cartridge is exactly this. It's no different than if you throw away a SNES cart. And the reason is so that you don't have to install or manage your storage because your one drive ran out of space.

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Architecture.

by cheapLEY @, Thursday, May 14, 2020, 18:42 (15 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Ah, yeah, we’ve been doing it forever, so it must be the best way, right?

I haven’t bought a disc in five years.

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Architecture.

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Friday, May 15, 2020, 10:49 (14 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Ah, yeah, we’ve been doing it forever, so it must be the best way, right?

I haven’t bought a disc in five years.

I'm with cheapLEY on this one. I think having single use storage devices is kinda wasteful and although practical for a time is still not worth it. Not to mention it is also isn't as reliable. What if you lose it? break it? Just doesn't work with your Xbox? Software on a server somewhere will always be there as long as it's supported. And it has infinite backup.

I know the counter to this is that it's in someone else's hands so if they decide to remove it they can. But technically software on media storage is still the developers property.

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Architecture.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, May 15, 2020, 13:40 (14 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV
edited by Cody Miller, Friday, May 15, 2020, 13:45

Ah, yeah, we’ve been doing it forever, so it must be the best way, right?

I haven’t bought a disc in five years.


I'm with cheapLEY on this one. I think having single use storage devices is kinda wasteful and although practical for a time is still not worth it. Not to mention it is also isn't as reliable. What if you lose it? break it? Just doesn't work with your Xbox? Software on a server somewhere will always be there as long as it's supported. And it has infinite backup.

Let's look at my own history with this.

I've broken and lost zero games on physical media. They all still work.

I've lost access to three games I purchased digitally (Bioshock Infinite, and two Telltale series (Back to the future, Sam & Max). The telltale games simply won't work, since the server check in is dead. Bioshock Infinite was pulled from the Mac store since it is 32 bit, and I can't re-download it even though I am not running Catalina.

You said it yourself: "as long as it's supported". Physical media requires zero support.

It's way more reliable to go physical. I would much rather put in a Lucasarts Adventure game CD into my computer and run it in SCUMMVM than pay for it again on steam. Physical largely ensures you can play your game with new hardware too: with interpreters, patchers, and backward compatibility.

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Data is Data…

by Vortech @, A Fourth Wheel, Saturday, May 16, 2020, 14:39 (13 days ago) @ Cody Miller

no matter where they are stored. Those telltale games could just as easily have been sold to you on a disk and still broken when a server was taken down. That's about how the game was designed/programed, not the media. Forced obsolescence (the real thing, not some whining conspiracy nut jobs that think batteries should be magical and never degrade) and when people constructively make it happen through indifference to longevity are things to denounce. But that is not a reason we must cling to slow and wasteful physical media. DRM is your enemy; DVD is not your savior.

(and as someone who champions indie titles I would think you would want to get rid of physical distribution just to lower costs, disintermediate the publishers, and level the playing field.)


P.S. 32 bit titles are still available in the Mac App Store and all titles you previously purchased are still available for you to re-download if you are signed in even if the title is no longer available for sale. The only reason software would not appear on you purchased list for re-download is if the author chose to pull if from the store entirely or it was pulled for TOS violations. So, again, this is about the publisher/author, not the platform/Media.

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Data is Data…

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, May 16, 2020, 16:07 (13 days ago) @ Vortech

But that is not a reason we must cling to slow and wasteful physical media. DRM is your enemy; DVD is not your savior.

I have no problem buying a game digitally from say, GOG.com. There's no DRM. Every game I've ever bought I can tuck away safely.

P.S. 32 bit titles are still available in the Mac App Store and all titles you previously purchased are still available for you to re-download if you are signed in even if the title is no longer available for sale. The only reason software would not appear on you purchased list for re-download is if the author chose to pull if from the store entirely or it was pulled for TOS violations. So, again, this is about the publisher/author, not the platform/Media.

A publisher cannot 'pull' my physical media.

Data is Data…

by Claude Errera @, Saturday, May 16, 2020, 16:28 (13 days ago) @ Cody Miller

But that is not a reason we must cling to slow and wasteful physical media. DRM is your enemy; DVD is not your savior.


I have no problem buying a game digitally from say, GOG.com. There's no DRM. Every game I've ever bought I can tuck away safely.

P.S. 32 bit titles are still available in the Mac App Store and all titles you previously purchased are still available for you to re-download if you are signed in even if the title is no longer available for sale. The only reason software would not appear on you purchased list for re-download is if the author chose to pull if from the store entirely or it was pulled for TOS violations. So, again, this is about the publisher/author, not the platform/Media.


A publisher cannot 'pull' my physical media.

No, but they can 'pull' your ability to play it. There are plenty of games that require an internet connection (and, presumably, a check-in with a server somewhere) - even if they have a single-player mode, that doesn't necessarily mean you can play it without someone approving (in real time) your doing so.

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Data is Data…

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, May 16, 2020, 17:04 (13 days ago) @ Claude Errera

No, but they can 'pull' your ability to play it. There are plenty of games that require an internet connection (and, presumably, a check-in with a server somewhere) - even if they have a single-player mode, that doesn't necessarily mean you can play it without someone approving (in real time) your doing so.

The physical versions of these telltale games do not check into a server.

Data is Data…

by Claude Errera @, Saturday, May 16, 2020, 18:10 (13 days ago) @ Cody Miller

No, but they can 'pull' your ability to play it. There are plenty of games that require an internet connection (and, presumably, a check-in with a server somewhere) - even if they have a single-player mode, that doesn't necessarily mean you can play it without someone approving (in real time) your doing so.


The physical versions of these telltale games do not check into a server.

That wasn't my point. The statement of yours I was replying to wasn't "A publisher cannot 'pull' my physical media for these Telltale Games", it was "A publisher cannot 'pull' my physical media."

My response was "yes, they can." Maybe not for Telltale, but the point was that physical media isn't safer than digital media in terms of being able to play in the future. Vortech is 100% correct - it's about the publisher/author, not the platform/media.

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Data is Data…

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, May 16, 2020, 20:46 (13 days ago) @ Claude Errera

No, but they can 'pull' your ability to play it. There are plenty of games that require an internet connection (and, presumably, a check-in with a server somewhere) - even if they have a single-player mode, that doesn't necessarily mean you can play it without someone approving (in real time) your doing so.


The physical versions of these telltale games do not check into a server.


That wasn't my point. The statement of yours I was replying to wasn't "A publisher cannot 'pull' my physical media for these Telltale Games", it was "A publisher cannot 'pull' my physical media."

My response was "yes, they can." Maybe not for Telltale, but the point was that physical media isn't safer than digital media in terms of being able to play in the future. Vortech is 100% correct - it's about the publisher/author, not the platform/media.

The likelihood of 'pulling' is astronomically greater with digital versus physical. This is a fact. I am sure SOME physical games can be disabled, but MOST digital ones can be.

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Data is Data…

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Monday, May 18, 2020, 08:47 (11 days ago) @ Cody Miller

No, but they can 'pull' your ability to play it. There are plenty of games that require an internet connection (and, presumably, a check-in with a server somewhere) - even if they have a single-player mode, that doesn't necessarily mean you can play it without someone approving (in real time) your doing so.


The physical versions of these telltale games do not check into a server.


That wasn't my point. The statement of yours I was replying to wasn't "A publisher cannot 'pull' my physical media for these Telltale Games", it was "A publisher cannot 'pull' my physical media."

My response was "yes, they can." Maybe not for Telltale, but the point was that physical media isn't safer than digital media in terms of being able to play in the future. Vortech is 100% correct - it's about the publisher/author, not the platform/media.


The likelihood of 'pulling' is astronomically greater with digital versus physical. This is a fact. I am sure SOME physical games can be disabled, but MOST digital ones can be.

Maybe I got this wrong somewhere down the line, but isn't it still true with physical media that if the publisher/developer stops selling or pulling a game from distribution that, according to the EOL that everyone agrees to when buying software, that you aren't allowed to use it? Because it's technically still their intellectual property and you are actually essentially just renting the game. I could be way off, but this was true sometime in the past. If this is still true, then what you are talking about, saving away a disk to play whenever you want after the developer takes it from play that you are actually committing a crime :D

I could be wrong, but that is what I remember.

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Data is Data…

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, May 18, 2020, 09:48 (11 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

Maybe I got this wrong somewhere down the line, but isn't it still true with physical media that if the publisher/developer stops selling or pulling a game from distribution that, according to the EOL that everyone agrees to when buying software, that you aren't allowed to use it?

I've never seen or agreed to an End of Life on a physical release from a game console, or a computer game. Ever. So no. And even if that WAS true, they cannot enforce it without coming to my house.

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Data is Data…

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Monday, May 18, 2020, 10:50 (11 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Maybe I got this wrong somewhere down the line, but isn't it still true with physical media that if the publisher/developer stops selling or pulling a game from distribution that, according to the EOL that everyone agrees to when buying software, that you aren't allowed to use it?


I've never seen or agreed to an End of Life on a physical release from a game console, or a computer game. Ever. So no. And even if that WAS true, they cannot enforce it without coming to my house.

oops, I meant EULA :D

Also, there are a lot of things that are illegal that can't be enforced if everyone does it. For example, pirating music.

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Data is Data…

by Vortech @, A Fourth Wheel, Monday, May 18, 2020, 11:31 (11 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

Maybe I got this wrong somewhere down the line, but isn't it still true with physical media that if the publisher/developer stops selling or pulling a game from distribution that, according to the EOL that everyone agrees to when buying software, that you aren't allowed to use it? Because it's technically still their intellectual property and you are actually essentially just renting the game. I could be way off, but this was true sometime in the past. If this is still true, then what you are talking about, saving away a disk to play whenever you want after the developer takes it from play that you are actually committing a crime :D

I could be wrong, but that is what I remember.

You do indeed have it wrong. It is true that most software, and even a fair amount of media is self-identified as a license to use something, not ownership, but the conclusions you list are not real. Removing something from sale does not end personal consumption in any physical media license I have ever seen.

Mostly these clauses are about preventing re-sale and sidestepping the first-sale doctrine. but creating the copyright law they want through individual "contracts". Now, the reality is that most of this gets ignored, Courts are split AT BEST on how enforceable a contract is when the party who did not write the contract is very likely to have never read it and "consented" by opening an envelope or clicking through. The Owners have been very reluctant to test the enforcability — likely because a loss would destroy the whole scheme, because widespread public knowledge of the scheme might destroy the whole scheme, because individually enforcing contracts with each purchaser is expensive as all hell, and because the copyright law keeps getting re-written in ways that Ley them get everything they need without resorting to EULA stuff anyway.

But — maybe most importantly — even if all of it was true, breaking a contract is not committing a crime. Civil and Criminal law is separate and that's for very good reasons.

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+1 Thanks

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Monday, May 18, 2020, 12:36 (11 days ago) @ Vortech

- No text -

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unless it's just Lore posing as Data

by Robot Chickens, Saturday, May 16, 2020, 21:48 (13 days ago) @ Vortech

- No text -

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NERRRRRRRD! ... but yeah you're right. Freek'n Lore.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Monday, May 18, 2020, 11:10 (11 days ago) @ Robot Chickens

- No text -

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+1 to you both.

by SteelGaribaldi @, Sol system, Monday, May 18, 2020, 15:07 (11 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

- No text -

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Architecture.

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Sunday, May 17, 2020, 18:18 (12 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Ah, yeah, we’ve been doing it forever, so it must be the best way, right?

I haven’t bought a disc in five years.


I'm with cheapLEY on this one. I think having single use storage devices is kinda wasteful and although practical for a time is still not worth it. Not to mention it is also isn't as reliable. What if you lose it? break it? Just doesn't work with your Xbox? Software on a server somewhere will always be there as long as it's supported. And it has infinite backup.


Let's look at my own history with this.

I've broken and lost zero games on physical media. They all still work.

I've lost access to three games I purchased digitally (Bioshock Infinite, and two Telltale series (Back to the future, Sam & Max). The telltale games simply won't work, since the server check in is dead. Bioshock Infinite was pulled from the Mac store since it is 32 bit, and I can't re-download it even though I am not running Catalina.

Your current hardware lost access to it, not you in general.

It's way more reliable to go physical.

I completely disagree with this. But that's mostly because I don't collect old hardware. Also, my shit breaks.

You said it yourself: "as long as it's supported". Physical media requires zero support.

Physical largely ensures you can play your game with new hardware too: with interpreters, patchers, and backward compatibility.

The second sentence counters the first sentence...

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Architecture.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Sunday, May 17, 2020, 20:06 (12 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

Physical largely ensures you can play your game with new hardware too: with interpreters, patchers, and backward compatibility.


The second sentence counters the first sentence...

Not sure how that's contradictory.

I can put say, the CD for Indy and the Fate of Atlantis into my computer and use SCUMMVM to run it. Otherwise, to run it on OS X you'd have to buy it again on steam.

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Architecture.

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Sunday, May 17, 2020, 23:14 (12 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Can't you just run whatever data was on the old OS on this SCUMMV too?

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Architecture.

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Monday, May 18, 2020, 08:40 (11 days ago) @ Cody Miller

You said it yourself: "as long as it's supported". Physical media requires zero support.

Physical largely ensures you can play your game with new hardware too: with interpreters, patchers, and backward compatibility.

The second sentence counters the first sentence...


Not sure how that's contradictory.

You say physical media requires zero support and then list off a bunch support products. Yes, I understand that is to play it with modern software and hardware, which to me is the same thing as rebuying after the game as been modernized.

I agree that you could feasibly keep the hardware and the game media in a frozen state from basically any era. But you again have to make sure that hardware and media in that state. That to me is support. And honestly if this is what you are arguing then I guess I'm just done with this conversation because there is a reason this isn't a thing, because a very small percentage of people are willing to do this for the cost of reliving an old game.

I can put say, the CD for Indy and the Fate of Atlantis into my computer and use SCUMMVM to run it. Otherwise, to run it on OS X you'd have to buy it again on steam.

A vast majority of people would much rather rebuy it for the 5 bucks than to keep an OS in state from 10 years ago. That is your choice to do, but you can't say that that should be status quo because the majority of people (it would actually have to be more) would prefer to do that.

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Architecture.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, May 18, 2020, 09:44 (11 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

You say physical media requires zero support and then list off a bunch support products. Yes, I understand that is to play it with modern software and hardware, which to me is the same thing as rebuying after the game as been modernized.

It's not the same at all. In my example with Indy, I could play it on a modern systems for ZERO DOLLARS. You can avoid having to buy it again, because you already have the game on a disc that SCUMMVM can read.

I agree that you could feasibly keep the hardware and the game media in a frozen state from basically any era. But you again have to make sure that hardware and media in that state. That to me is support. And honestly if this is what you are arguing then I guess I'm just done with this conversation because there is a reason this isn't a thing, because a very small percentage of people are willing to do this for the cost of reliving an old game.

Then they are free to buy digital and have to buy their games again and again.

A vast majority of people would much rather rebuy it for the 5 bucks than to keep an OS in state from 10 years ago. That is your choice to do, but you can't say that that should be status quo because the majority of people (it would actually have to be more) would prefer to do that.

I don't think you are quite understanding the point. You don't have to maintain an old OS state. My Fate of Atlantis CD runs under OS 9. SCUMMVM runs on anything. So, you put the CD in your modern OS of choice, and it can read and run the game. The last time I booted into OS 9 was to show Claude DBO and HBO didn't work on Netscape Navigator, but before that it was a decade and a half at least.

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Architecture.

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Monday, May 18, 2020, 11:02 (11 days ago) @ Cody Miller

You say physical media requires zero support and then list off a bunch support products. Yes, I understand that is to play it with modern software and hardware, which to me is the same thing as rebuying after the game as been modernized.


It's not the same at all. In my example with Indy, I could play it on a modern systems for ZERO DOLLARS. You can avoid having to buy it again, because you already have the game on a disc that SCUMMVM can read.

Are we arguing support? maintaining something? Just because it's free doesn't mean it's isn't supported by someone. SCUMMVM is supported by someone, just because they are giving it to you for free doesn't mean it's not taking work by someone for you to keep playing older games.

I agree that you could feasibly keep the hardware and the game media in a frozen state from basically any era. But you again have to make sure that hardware and media in that state. That to me is support. And honestly if this is what you are arguing then I guess I'm just done with this conversation because there is a reason this isn't a thing, because a very small percentage of people are willing to do this for the cost of reliving an old game.


Then they are free to buy digital and have to buy their games again and again.

Yep.

A vast majority of people would much rather rebuy it for the 5 bucks than to keep an OS in state from 10 years ago. That is your choice to do, but you can't say that that should be status quo because the majority of people (it would actually have to be more) would prefer to do that.


I don't think you are quite understanding the point. You don't have to maintain an old OS state. My Fate of Atlantis CD runs under OS 9. SCUMMVM runs on anything. So, you put the CD in your modern OS of choice, and it can read and run the game. The last time I booted into OS 9 was to show Claude DBO and HBO didn't work on Netscape Navigator, but before that it was a decade and a half at least.

So SCUMMVM works on Xbox? Playstation? iPhone? Because those are also devices that use my method. Hardware that is constantly being upgraded to be better machines to play better games. That if people want to play older games for longer either have to be updated or are just backwards compatible.

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Architecture.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, May 18, 2020, 11:36 (11 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

So SCUMMVM works on Xbox? Playstation? iPhone?

Yes to all those actually. There are versions for iOS, PS2, PS3, and Xbox. Even PSVita and Switch.

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Architecture.

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Monday, May 18, 2020, 12:47 (11 days ago) @ Cody Miller

So SCUMMVM works on Xbox? Playstation? iPhone?


Yes to all those actually. There are versions for iOS, PS2, PS3, and Xbox. Even PSVita and Switch.

So you are saying I can play PS games on a PS3? Or that you can play PS3 and PS2 games on PS4?
Because if it isn't the latter I don't know what the point is. I don't have the space to maintain multiple outdated consoles. If you can, that's great, but that is not something for the masses, it's a hobby. If the purpose of using physical media is so that you can play it forever as long as you keep the the hardware that SCUMMVM supports, assuming they also support it forever, I don't think the average joe is going to do that. Just because it's possible, doesn't mean it should be done.

I noticed on their wiki Xbox isn't supported. As for iPhone, the last supported is iOS 7?

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Architecture.

by Vortech @, A Fourth Wheel, Monday, May 18, 2020, 14:56 (11 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

So SCUMMVM works on Xbox? Playstation? iPhone?


Yes to all those actually. There are versions for iOS, PS2, PS3, and Xbox. Even PSVita and Switch.


So you are saying I can play PS games on a PS3? Or that you can play PS3 and PS2 games on PS4?
Because if it isn't the latter I don't know what the point is. I don't have the space to maintain multiple outdated consoles. If you can, that's great, but that is not something for the masses, it's a hobby. If the purpose of using physical media is so that you can play it forever as long as you keep the the hardware that SCUMMVM supports, assuming they also support it forever, I don't think the average joe is going to do that. Just because it's possible, doesn't mean it should be done.

I noticed on their wiki Xbox isn't supported. As for iPhone, the last supported is iOS 7?

Yeah, and that's because it does not really run on iOS, it runs on a modified (JAILBROKEN) iOS. Also "Supported" is going to be an odd word here. It's an open source project worked on by many people all with varying amounts of time, resources, definitions of what it means to support it, and comfort with violating copyright or hacking up an OS who have essentially forked and compiled it to work on a bunch of different platforms. An enormous amount of donated labor has been done by people because the like these games and want to have them work on modern platforms.

SCUMM is a common interpreter platform that Lucas Arts used for a bunch of games in the adventure/point and click era (modifying the platform with pretty much every game that used it) Calling SCUMM VM an emulator might be overstating it, but not by much. At the end of the day, to answer what you're getting at, you need to do a lot of the things you would need to do with an emulator to do the things Cody is saying you can do. More relevant to my point*, is the you will need to copy the game files OFF OF PHYSICAL MEDIA into a digital** format given that iOS, PS Vita, Nintendo Switch, etc. don't have drives that can read the original form of physical media.

Now that I spent a lot of time clarifying, the problem is none of this is relevant to the discussion. The argument here (which I agree with, BTW) is that DRM is bad for the future. I'm not sure why Cody persists saying "Digital" when he means DRM'd and "physical" when he meant DRM-free despite this obvious confusion and unnecessary disagreement it is causing, but it will smooth things along if you just do the translation in your head.

Meanwhile, you can't just see that it is on a disk and consider things safe forever. Archiving is a complicated and labor-intensive endeavor. Just saying "Physical solves" both hides potential risks and minimized the work people do to make old things still accessible. How valuable would those disks be if people had not made SCUMM VM? How valuable is my Mac-version Oni disk that I still have around here somewhere?


* Data is Data
** Because CD, DVD, and Floppy disks are not digital somehow?


P.S. I have most of these games still on old formats, and I have many devices with some version of SCUMMVM, and yet still I tend to go to my Xbox Live/Playstation Store versions when I want to play them because it's easier and they made MCC-ish "enhanced" versions of most of them which improve graphics or fix things that were probably a mistake like tank style controls. Also, I have a copy of Monkey Island 2 on my iPad that won't run because they didn't ever update the binary to be compatible. This is not a point against or for anything, but I think it's interesting and I'm glad I helped pay for someone to make great games easily available to people.

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Architecture.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, May 18, 2020, 18:26 (11 days ago) @ Vortech

How valuable is my Mac-version Oni disk that I still have around here somewhere?

Valuable enough that I knew exactly where mine was :-p

[image]

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Architecture.

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Tuesday, May 19, 2020, 07:07 (10 days ago) @ Cody Miller
edited by MacAddictXIV, Tuesday, May 19, 2020, 07:21

How valuable is my Mac-version Oni disk that I still have around here somewhere?


Valuable enough that I knew exactly where mine was :-p

[image]

Yet I have some CD's that are absolutely worthless because they can't be played on anything without quite a bit of effort on my part and more importantly others. Would they be worth something if they were digital and no longer available? Of course not, but they also wouldn't be cluttering a box in my apartment somewhere.

And I guess I will just loop back and tell you my original point. Just because I COULD play that ancient disk on a VM software somewhere on a machine that I might still own, doesn't mean that medium should be the default for everyone. The default should be what makes sense for the masses of people who game on modern hardware.

Architecture.

by TheOmegaClown, Tuesday, May 19, 2020, 08:14 (10 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

And the masses of people are likely to throw away their hard media when it becomes inconvenient for the to keep around. The e-waste argument is enough for me to buy as little hard copy as possible.

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Architecture.

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Tuesday, May 19, 2020, 08:25 (10 days ago) @ TheOmegaClown

And the masses of people are likely to throw away their hard media when it becomes inconvenient for the to keep around. The e-waste argument is enough for me to buy as little hard copy as possible.

I mean, game pass and Xbox gold membership is enough to warrant non-physical media for me. The amazing deals and constant free games I get because they can flip a switch on certain games that give me amazing deals. Imagine doing that to physical CDs at some store somewhere? I would probably have to explain my membership details to a teenager in a mall. Again, not worth it.

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Architecture.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, May 19, 2020, 09:03 (10 days ago) @ TheOmegaClown

The waste from plastic discs or metal carts is a statistically insignificant polluter and contributor to climate change. Don’t let the large companies that do all the pollution make you think you are the problem.

Architecture.

by TheOmegaClown, Tuesday, May 19, 2020, 10:26 (10 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Plenty of blame to go around when it comes to mismanagement of the environment. I guess I'd rather not pass the buck if I know I can make a responsible decision, regardless of how "statistically insignificant" it is.

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Architecture.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, May 19, 2020, 09:01 (10 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

No that’s true I can see why people would buy DRMed digital versions of games. But I would like there to always be an alternative. The day physical is no longer an option is the day I stop buying consoles.

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Architecture.

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Tuesday, May 19, 2020, 09:21 (10 days ago) @ Cody Miller

No that’s true I can see why people would buy DRMed digital versions of games. But I would like there to always be an alternative. The day physical is no longer an option is the day I stop buying consoles.

And I agree that we should always have options as well as the choice to choose between them. I just disagree with your original statement that physical mediums is the "dream option".

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Sure! It's not all roses though.

by Vortech @, A Fourth Wheel, Saturday, May 16, 2020, 14:48 (13 days ago) @ cheapLEY

The XSX's answer is more compression. They have a hardware-based data decompression that is designed to keep down storage cost and bandwidth cost. PS5's answer is to just have more internal bandwidth (and still small amounts of un-expandible storage? hmm.) So in theory it would depend on the platform. In reality, we have seen the unique features of platforms mostly get ignored by games unless they are first-party titles that are going to be platform exclusive. Those are pretty rare these days. Even then, as the tools that they use to make games get higher level and more cross-platform even first party studios have a big price to pay in production if they want to address unique platform features.


Anyway. This is a description of some cool tech, but combine the fact they are only just able to show it now with the fact that it's running in relatively low-rez, even as a custom-made demo, with the fact that it won't actually launch as tools until later this year (or next) with the fact that game development takes years and won't switch tools mid-cycle and this all seems like them describing things that won't touch games played by the masses for at least 5 years. It's cool, but it's kinda misleading of Sony to put it into an event about the PS5.

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Sure! It's not all roses though.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, May 16, 2020, 16:10 (13 days ago) @ Vortech

Anyway. This is a description of some cool tech, but combine the fact they are only just able to show it now with the fact that it's running in relatively low-rez

But it looks great. Making run at a higher resolution would make it look not as great on the same hardware. It's already running at a higher resolution than you saw Avengers Endgame in.

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Sure! It's not all roses though.

by Vortech @, A Fourth Wheel, Saturday, May 16, 2020, 21:03 (13 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Anyway. This is a description of some cool tech, but combine the fact they are only just able to show it now with the fact that it's running in relatively low-rez


But it looks great. Making run at a higher resolution would make it look not as great on the same hardware. It's already running at a higher resolution than you saw Avengers Endgame in.

I’m not saying that it wasn’t “high enough” resolution, I’m arguing that on these systems that were designed from the ground up to be running at 4K to only be able to run this demo at a lower resolution means that the software is on the bleeding edge of what the machine is even capable of, which is in support of my point that we are a long way off from actually benefiting from what was shown.

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Sure! It's not all roses though.

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Saturday, May 16, 2020, 21:44 (13 days ago) @ Vortech

Anyway. This is a description of some cool tech, but combine the fact they are only just able to show it now with the fact that it's running in relatively low-rez


But it looks great. Making run at a higher resolution would make it look not as great on the same hardware. It's already running at a higher resolution than you saw Avengers Endgame in.


I’m not saying that it wasn’t “high enough” resolution, I’m arguing that on these systems that were designed from the ground up to be running at 4K to only be able to run this demo at a lower resolution means that the software is on the bleeding edge of what the machine is even capable of, which is in support of my point that we are a long way off from actually benefiting from what was shown.

To your point, did any PS2 game ever look as good as that rubber ducky demo? :)

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Sure! It's not all roses though.

by Vortech @, A Fourth Wheel, Saturday, May 16, 2020, 22:03 (13 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Those unblinking eyes haunt my dreams.

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Sure! It's not all roses though.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Sunday, May 17, 2020, 11:30 (12 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Anyway. This is a description of some cool tech, but combine the fact they are only just able to show it now with the fact that it's running in relatively low-rez


But it looks great. Making run at a higher resolution would make it look not as great on the same hardware. It's already running at a higher resolution than you saw Avengers Endgame in.


I’m not saying that it wasn’t “high enough” resolution, I’m arguing that on these systems that were designed from the ground up to be running at 4K to only be able to run this demo at a lower resolution means that the software is on the bleeding edge of what the machine is even capable of, which is in support of my point that we are a long way off from actually benefiting from what was shown.


To your point, did any PS2 game ever look as good as that rubber ducky demo? :)

Gran Turismo 3 looked better.

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