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Dungeons now purchased separately. (Destiny)

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, October 19, 2021, 15:29 (43 days ago)

From Cozmo on reddit:

Hey everyone. We’ve seen some debate around the new dungeon content and wanted to clarify how it will be delivered next year.

If you get the Digital Deluxe Edition of The Witch Queen you will receive the expansion, all four Seasons for the next year, and the two Dungeons. If you get the Standard Edition, you can still upgrade to the Deluxe Edition to get the dungeons later. We will also be offering a separate way for you to purchase the Dungeons in the future, but they will not be included in the Season passes.

We will share more info on this closer to when this content is set to go live.

We went from being told Eververse was funding stuff like Zero Hour to Dungeons being broken out as separate purchases.

To be clear, I already bought the Witch Queen Deluxe plus 30th Anniversary pack and don’t regret it. Other than the post-Forsaken year, I think every dollar I’ve spent on Destiny has been well spent, enough so that I dropped $100 (or whatever it was, I genuinely don’t remember) on prebuying the next year of Destiny.

It just struck me as an odd tone shift and is yet another reminder that Bungie is talking out the side of their mouths at all times.

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Dungeons now purchased separately.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, October 20, 2021, 00:49 (43 days ago) @ cheapLEY

It just struck me as an odd tone shift and is yet another reminder that Bungie is talking out the side of their mouths at all times.

Out of curiosity I looked at all the buying options. As one person on reddit commented:

God I feel like I'm buying health insurance, not a game anymore.

I hate so much how games aren't games anymore but monetization platforms. Once they rolled out eververse, you actually thought they'd go back or not creep? Naive.

Sad.

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Dungeons now purchased separately.

by squidnh3, Wednesday, October 20, 2021, 06:08 (42 days ago) @ cheapLEY

To be clear, I already bought the Witch Queen Deluxe plus 30th Anniversary pack and don’t regret it. Other than the post-Forsaken year, I think every dollar I’ve spent on Destiny has been well spent, enough so that I dropped $100 (or whatever it was, I genuinely don’t remember) on prebuying the next year of Destiny.

It just struck me as an odd tone shift and is yet another reminder that Bungie is talking out the side of their mouths at all times.

I thought this was weird too. They've gotten a little too good at dropping these sour apples separate from their big positive announcements.

I'm going to buy the whole big thing too, it's just so worth it for me it's silly to even think about not doing it. The problem with that, it's impossible to explain to someone looking to try Destiny out how the game will work for them with only some of the content.

I've often wondered how much it costs to develop a Dungeon or a Raid as something like a pure billing rate sum. Wild guessing: it seems to take about a year to develop them, so if you say it takes 20 people working 40 hours a week for a year, and guess a billing rate of $200/hour per person (they probably have pretty high overhead), that works out to around $8 million. I wonder if they looked at how much they were spending on developing the Dungeons and decided including them with the seasons ($10 a pop) was undervaluing that investment.

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Dungeons now purchased separately.

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, October 20, 2021, 06:27 (42 days ago) @ squidnh3

I was thinking along those lines, too. They cannot be cheap to develop, and they’re absolutely worth the money.

Worth noting, the Deluxe Edition that gets you everything is $80. The Beyond Light Deluxe was $70, I think
So it’s $5 per Dungeon (whether that’s what they will cost individually, who knows). I challenge anyone to tell me the Dungeons aren’t worth $5. They’re the best content in Destiny.

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Dungeons now purchased separately.

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, October 20, 2021, 07:05 (42 days ago) @ squidnh3

To be clear, I already bought the Witch Queen Deluxe plus 30th Anniversary pack and don’t regret it. Other than the post-Forsaken year, I think every dollar I’ve spent on Destiny has been well spent, enough so that I dropped $100 (or whatever it was, I genuinely don’t remember) on prebuying the next year of Destiny.

It just struck me as an odd tone shift and is yet another reminder that Bungie is talking out the side of their mouths at all times.


I thought this was weird too. They've gotten a little too good at dropping these sour apples separate from their big positive announcements.

I'm going to buy the whole big thing too, it's just so worth it for me it's silly to even think about not doing it. The problem with that, it's impossible to explain to someone looking to try Destiny out how the game will work for them with only some of the content.

I've often wondered how much it costs to develop a Dungeon or a Raid as something like a pure billing rate sum. Wild guessing: it seems to take about a year to develop them, so if you say it takes 20 people working 40 hours a week for a year, and guess a billing rate of $200/hour per person (they probably have pretty high overhead), that works out to around $8 million. I wonder if they looked at how much they were spending on developing the Dungeons and decided including them with the seasons ($10 a pop) was undervaluing that investment.

Somewhere Milton Friedman smiles. I so appreciated this dose of realism. Not really interested in the "free to play" debate--the whole business depresses me. I find myself agreeing with Cody but I also realize that his ideal doesn't reflect the competitive environment in which people have to make big games like Destiny. There's great stuff in Destiny that I wouldn't want to not exist.

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Dungeons now purchased separately.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, October 20, 2021, 07:27 (42 days ago) @ squidnh3
edited by Cody Miller, Wednesday, October 20, 2021, 07:34

so if you say it takes 20 people working 40 hours a week for a year,

Fewer people, more hours

and guess a billing rate of $200/hour per person

That's crazy high. High end across the industry for an artist on an AAA game for example, is 97k/yr. At 40 hrs a week 50 weeks a year that's 48.50/hr. In reality, they are working way more than 40 hours a week, so hourly is even less.

Glassdoor puts the salaries for designers at Bungie from 74k to 120k/yr. Artists around 73k. Average is around 93k.

The people who design the Dungeons most likely do not make 200/hr.

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Dungeons now purchased separately.

by squidnh3, Wednesday, October 20, 2021, 07:45 (42 days ago) @ Cody Miller

The people who design the Dungeons most likely do not make 200/hr.

I'm talking billing rate, not salary. As in, what would it cost me to pay Bungie to develop a Dungeon for me. So that includes overhead (which I noted is probably quite high for video game development), health insurance, etc., distilled to an hourly rate. For reference, I have a PhD in Structural Engineering and 7 years of experience, and I bill at $150/hr, but make less than 1/3 of that. The construction industry is relatively mature compared to video game development and there's less upheaval, so I figure $200/hr makes sense for something highly specialized like designing and developing Raid/Dungeon encounters. Probably the initial designers and technical people bill out higher than that, the testers probably bill out lower so it'd average out.

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Dungeons now purchased separately.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, October 20, 2021, 08:16 (42 days ago) @ squidnh3

The people who design the Dungeons most likely do not make 200/hr.


I'm talking billing rate, not salary. As in, what would it cost me to pay Bungie to develop a Dungeon for me. So that includes overhead (which I noted is probably quite high for video game development), health insurance, etc., distilled to an hourly rate. For reference, I have a PhD in Structural Engineering and 7 years of experience, and I bill at $150/hr, but make less than 1/3 of that. The construction industry is relatively mature compared to video game development and there's less upheaval, so I figure $200/hr makes sense for something highly specialized like designing and developing Raid/Dungeon encounters. Probably the initial designers and technical people bill out higher than that, the testers probably bill out lower so it'd average out.

Oh I see. Even factoring that in, my gut says it is not that high. But I guess there's no way to know is there?

Fun fact: Myth 1 took about a million dollars to develop the whole game. That's 1.7 million in today's money.

Dungeons now purchased separately.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Wednesday, October 20, 2021, 13:35 (42 days ago) @ squidnh3

To be clear, I already bought the Witch Queen Deluxe plus 30th Anniversary pack and don’t regret it. Other than the post-Forsaken year, I think every dollar I’ve spent on Destiny has been well spent, enough so that I dropped $100 (or whatever it was, I genuinely don’t remember) on prebuying the next year of Destiny.

It just struck me as an odd tone shift and is yet another reminder that Bungie is talking out the side of their mouths at all times.


I thought this was weird too. They've gotten a little too good at dropping these sour apples separate from their big positive announcements.

I'm going to buy the whole big thing too, it's just so worth it for me it's silly to even think about not doing it. The problem with that, it's impossible to explain to someone looking to try Destiny out how the game will work for them with only some of the content.

I've often wondered how much it costs to develop a Dungeon or a Raid as something like a pure billing rate sum. Wild guessing: it seems to take about a year to develop them, so if you say it takes 20 people working 40 hours a week for a year, and guess a billing rate of $200/hour per person (they probably have pretty high overhead), that works out to around $8 million. I wonder if they looked at how much they were spending on developing the Dungeons and decided including them with the seasons ($10 a pop) was undervaluing that investment.

Timescale? 4-6 months for a Dungeon. Raids oh, 8-10 considering all the moving parts Raids reliably have that must work. There are a number of factors to guess, as size and complexity of concept can add or takeaway not to mention all the bug fixes we don't see. Also, you're not factoring in outsourcing or any other cost cutting measures.

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cool, when's the vaulting date tho?

by Spec ops Grunt @, Broklahoma, Wednesday, October 20, 2021, 09:23 (42 days ago) @ cheapLEY

- No text -

cool, when's the vaulting date tho?

by Burchie, Wednesday, October 20, 2021, 14:21 (42 days ago) @ Spec ops Grunt

I wonder if it will be inevitable that Bungie will need to start communicating with customers at the time of sale how long content they purchase will be available to play. The service model is now well established for long-term players, we know what is likely coming, and that all content could be vaulted. You buy an expansion you know elements will come and go.

But buying a dungeon, particularly if it isn’t at the time of release makes it a lottery. How long will you have it for? How will new players know what they are getting and for how long?

Bungie hates noobs.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Wednesday, October 20, 2021, 13:25 (42 days ago) @ cheapLEY

We went from being told Eververse was funding stuff like Zero Hour to Dungeons being broken out as separate purchases.

To be clear, I already bought the Witch Queen Deluxe plus 30th Anniversary pack and don’t regret it. Other than the post-Forsaken year, I think every dollar I’ve spent on Destiny has been well spent, enough so that I dropped $100 (or whatever it was, I genuinely don’t remember) on prebuying the next year of Destiny.

It just struck me as an odd tone shift and is yet another reminder that Bungie is talking out the side of their mouths at all times.

Is Bungie a wrathful god? Maybe not, but it sure seems like all their player base must suffer some sort of mild-maybe-more-ish indignity or insufferableness to play their game. Indeed I shall elaborate.

Here we are, the folks whom have suffered long to taste the sweets we knew Bungie capable of. Even though there were some really, REALLY -like so bad WU added "Criticism" as a selectable post tag- really bad times in Destines span, we've come back because we're Bungie fans. Or we're crazy. Both? eh. For us the next year is easy to choose for thanks to the by-and-large excellent year of content improvements made in Destiny. So what do we do? *BOOM* here's yer hundo, and the whole year is set.

That's it. It's so easy. It's quite frankly how it used to be and how it should have stayed. Here's your yearly expansion pack with ALL THINGS! Done. Now go play our game, we hope you enjoy.

!!!*SIGH*!!!

[image]

Plus we're in so deep with this jungle it honestly feels rude to stop the party now. Or something, whatever.

Then we get to... THE NOOBS! The unwashed blueberry masses who have yet to provide proper sacrifice. They must prove their devotion, and they must do so with PAIN! On their knees they must chant;

P̵̩̱̼̰̾͌̏̔̃̃̏͝h'nglui mg̴̛̮̻͇̫̫̘̲̻̦̱̀͆̉lw'nafh C̶̨͖̯̯͕̰̙̗̔̐̏̓͜͝͠t̴̡͔̻̩͔̼̟̜̞͈̓̌̒͋̇ḧ̶͕͈̖̮͔̀͌̅͑̎͌ü̵̡͈̦̠̼̣̺̂l̸̡̞͕̜̱̅͗̑̀̀̃̉ḩ̸̺̹͓̰̩̯̲̰̉̇̀̏́͜ư̴̺̠͎͖̬̫̟͉̊͒͐̉͒̂͂̀̇ R'lyeh w̵̨͔̓́̊́̃gah'nagl fh̷̡͍̣̼͉̰̲̯̆̍̄̈͊́̂̑tagn!

Oh! Wait... no, that's, it should be... precious...

Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.

NO! NO!...It's... It's...

What the fuck is all this? Do I want the horse armor?

[image]

One of my longest running critiques of this game has been how it seems reliably to get in the way of the fun it possesses. Now it seems for these potential guardians Bungie has made it even more unnecessarily harder to parse by nickel-and-dimeing those whom would be far more vulnerable to such. The folks comeing into this, who have no investment, who don't know why this game is so big that bungie needs to "vault" content. All they see is the pittance that is allowed on top of pay gate after pay gate. It's so so very stupid, in warms my heart knowing that whoever was the designer on sun-setting is now working on new light stuff.

[image]
Caption: The designer on sun-setting now working on new light stuff.

On behalf of every new light guardian, fuck you bungie for hording some of that gold, you fucking dragon. Even the dumbest of drug dealers knows you give the first hit for free.

Ah shit, what a statement.

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Dungeons now purchased separately.

by ManKitten, The Stugotz is strong in me., Thursday, October 21, 2021, 08:33 (41 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Now I'm curious, if these activities are stand-alone purchases, will it lower the price of the overall expansion? Because, I probably have to guess, no.

Then when do they start charging for Raids? PvP maps? This seems like a Pandoras box of a la carte packaging.

As mentioned previously, dungeons and raids aren't my go-to event. (I've still never done a full D2 raid). But I still don't have a problem paying for them as part of the full meal. Once they go standalone, I can almost guarantee I'll never buy them. But will I still be paying the same price for the content that doesn't include these activities?

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That is the crux of it for me

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Thursday, October 21, 2021, 10:04 (41 days ago) @ ManKitten

Our local clan has seen a massive influx of kinderguardians now that D2 has gone crossplay, but our ability to actually play together is all over the place. Each new member has a different permutation of purchased expansions and season passes, so each can only play a select intersection of content. What's keeping most of them from buying, for example, Shadowkeep to play Garden with us is that the rest of Shadowkeep is of absolutely no interest to them, but the full price of the expansion is a tad too much for a raid.

Were D2 entirely a la carte, as long as prices as reasonable, it would solve most of our problems. But it seems the expansion and season passes are still the exact same price. Hopefully, they compensate by having more content of other kind, but it sounds unlikely to me.

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That is the crux of it for me

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, October 21, 2021, 16:54 (41 days ago) @ ZackDark

A la carte is terrible for the artistic integrity of games.

Every piece should be part of a finely crafted machine. But if you can remove a part and the machine still run… then how critical was it in the first place?

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Aren't you the one that advocates for expansion packs?

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Thursday, October 21, 2021, 19:11 (41 days ago) @ Cody Miller

- No text -

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Aren't you the one that advocates for expansion packs?

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, October 21, 2021, 21:40 (41 days ago) @ ZackDark
edited by Cody Miller, Thursday, October 21, 2021, 21:47

Expansion packs are basically mini sequels that run on the same game engine.

It's the opposite of a la carte. It's a huge content drop all at once that is integrated and meaningful. Keyword huge.

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That is the crux of it for me

by kidtsunami @, Atlanta, GA, Friday, October 22, 2021, 06:12 (40 days ago) @ Cody Miller

A la carte is terrible for the artistic integrity of games.

Every piece should be part of a finely crafted machine. But if you can remove a part and the machine still run… then how critical was it in the first place?

Considering video games are an interactive medium, this doesn't make any sense. Unless everything is strictly scripted from start to end with no deviation and no player agency, then things HAVE to be able to be removed and the machine still run... because players inherently do it through their play.

It's just a weird arbitrary rule you've come up with because of Horse Armor.

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That is the crux of it for me

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, October 22, 2021, 07:41 (40 days ago) @ kidtsunami

I don’t think that’s a very good argument.

If you are choosing to skip say, a side quest or something, that does not mean it isn’t meaningfully integrated into the game experience. In fact, just like secrets, their mere inclusion also improves the game even if you don’t do them! They exist to expand and deepen the world. The player doesn’t know what lies ahead, and this feeling affects you ask you play. What depths does this world hold?

But if you just buy the stupid side quest separately, you know exactly what lies ahead and the experience changes dramatically.

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That is the crux of it for me

by kidtsunami @, Atlanta, GA, Friday, October 22, 2021, 07:45 (40 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I don’t think that’s a very good argument.

If you are choosing to skip say, a side quest or something, that does not mean it isn’t meaningfully integrated into the game experience. In fact, just like secrets, their mere inclusion also improves the game even if you don’t do them! They exist to expand and deepen the world. The player doesn’t know what lies ahead, and this feeling affects you ask you play. What depths does this world hold?

But if you just buy the stupid side quest separately, you know exactly what lies ahead and the experience changes dramatically.

I don't necessarily agree. If I buy a ticket to a puzzle room or a haunted house, do I know exactly what lies ahead?

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That is the crux of it for me

by cheapLEY @, Friday, October 22, 2021, 08:03 (40 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I understand what you’re getting at, and I don’t necessarily disagree. Something like Morrowind or The Witcher or Uncharted would be awful as a la carte games. The strength of many games is the holistic experience of playing a complete game.

I think Destiny is best when played like that. Buying the $80 package and having access to everything is the best way to experience Destiny.

However, Destiny is fundamentally not a holistic experience. The game is already almost completely segmented into playlists launched from a menu, with only the barest amount of story or even game systems connecting them together. I suspect that not having access to one playlist or another isn’t as detrimental to the game as you personally think. The game just isn’t designed as a tight, complete package. Gambit has nothing to do with strikes (other than that you can expect the fundamental mechanics of the game to work the same in either mode).

Would Destiny be better as a more interwoven game? I think it probably would, but I also think that game would look almost nothing like Destiny.

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That is the crux of it for me

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, October 22, 2021, 08:47 (40 days ago) @ cheapLEY

However, Destiny is fundamentally not a holistic experience. The game is already almost completely segmented into playlists launched from a menu, with only the barest amount of story or even game systems connecting them together. I suspect that not having access to one playlist or another isn’t as detrimental to the game as you personally think. The game just isn’t designed as a tight, complete package. Gambit has nothing to do with strikes (other than that you can expect the fundamental mechanics of the game to work the same in either mode).

I think you're right!

But that's not a reason to go a la carte. That's a reason to improve the game's cohesion.

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I don't think they can

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Friday, October 22, 2021, 09:12 (40 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Not anymore, at least.

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That is the crux of it for me

by kidtsunami @, Atlanta, GA, Friday, October 22, 2021, 12:31 (40 days ago) @ Cody Miller

However, Destiny is fundamentally not a holistic experience. The game is already almost completely segmented into playlists launched from a menu, with only the barest amount of story or even game systems connecting them together. I suspect that not having access to one playlist or another isn’t as detrimental to the game as you personally think. The game just isn’t designed as a tight, complete package. Gambit has nothing to do with strikes (other than that you can expect the fundamental mechanics of the game to work the same in either mode).


I think you're right!

But that's not a reason to go a la carte. That's a reason to improve the game's cohesion.

Fundamentally I think making it more cohesive in that regard would drive away most of the player base. There are people who never want to play gambit, or never play crucible, or never run strikes. As a "shared world shooter" the game depends literally on a population to "share" most of its experiences. It largely gets there by not requiring everyone to experience a singular cohesive experience.

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That is the crux of it for me

by cheapLEY @, Friday, October 22, 2021, 13:04 (40 days ago) @ kidtsunami

I think about this a lot and usually point towards The Division 2. It has an equivalent to just about everything in Destiny, but feels far more cohesive. Everything is (or can be) launched from with the open world. If you want to replay a mission or activity, you literally just walk to where the mission starts and launch it (Think the flags for the old Adventures, sort of).

The Division has the advantage of being one massive map instead of a bunch of smaller zones, but I think there’s a lot that Destiny could implement there. The Division’s equivalent of Public Events are of particular note in that they’re actually challenging a rewarding. And more interactive in neat ways that you can increase their difficulty tier in neat ways. Knocking out enemy checkpoints will increase the tier of the world in the surrounding area. In Destiny, I can imagine doing Patrols as a way to increase the tier of the next Public Event for better chances at high stat gear or something. Combine that with better Patrol Zones that just have more interesting encounters and the ability to launch missions or strikes from within those zones, and I really think you could make Patrols the default play space and make the game more cohesive.

The Variks upgrade path in Beyond Light is a gesture on the right direction. The Division has a lot of stuff like that, it just feels a bit more connected within the world, rather than menu based.

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