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Maybe Bungie can learn from this? (Destiny)

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Friday, August 04, 2023, 15:21 (355 days ago)
edited by Kermit, Friday, August 04, 2023, 15:41

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Maybe Bungie can learn from this?

by cheapLEY @, Friday, August 04, 2023, 16:25 (355 days ago) @ Kermit

I’m not sure Diablo 4 is a game anyone should be looking to as an example of how to do anything correctly, and definitely not in the way this article talks about. Would you really want to play more Destiny if it took away all your gear and upgrades and made you start from zero every three months?

I wish they’d learn from something like Baldur’s Gate 3 instead (based on what I’ve seen about it so far).

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Maybe Bungie can learn from this?

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Friday, August 04, 2023, 17:08 (355 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I’m not sure Diablo 4 is a game anyone should be looking to as an example of how to do anything correctly, and definitely not in the way this article talks about. Would you really want to play more Destiny if it took away all your gear and upgrades and made you start from zero every three months?

I wish they’d learn from something like Baldur’s Gate 3 instead (based on what I’ve seen about it so far).

Don't know anything about either game really, so I'll defer to you. Bungie devs have rhetorically encouraged people to take breaks. I'd appreciate a reasonable way to reduce FOMO.

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Maybe Bungie can learn from this?

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, August 04, 2023, 21:08 (354 days ago) @ Kermit

I’m not sure Diablo 4 is a game anyone should be looking to as an example of how to do anything correctly, and definitely not in the way this article talks about. Would you really want to play more Destiny if it took away all your gear and upgrades and made you start from zero every three months?

I wish they’d learn from something like Baldur’s Gate 3 instead (based on what I’ve seen about it so far).


Don't know anything about either game really, so I'll defer to you. Bungie devs have rhetorically encouraged people to take breaks. I'd appreciate a reasonable way to reduce FOMO.

1. Let people bank rewards. Don't do your activity this week? You can do it twice next week and get rewarded twice.
2. Don't vault anything. That way you can always go back and do a thing.

Problem solved. No FOMO.

Someone explain to me why this solution is somehow unworkable because it seems so obvious.

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Maybe Bungie can learn from this?

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Saturday, August 05, 2023, 14:06 (354 days ago) @ cheapLEY
edited by INSANEdrive, Saturday, August 05, 2023, 14:30

I’m not sure Diablo 4 is a game anyone should be looking to as an example of how to do anything correctly, and definitely not in the way this article talks about. Would you really want to play more Destiny if it took away all your gear and upgrades and made you start from zero every three months?

I wish they’d learn from something like Baldur’s Gate 3 instead (based on what I’ve seen about it so far).

Two Things:

1: In the event that Xbox Series S doesn't screw things over, I will be getting Baldur’s Gate 3. My First foray into DnD!

2: Baldur’s Gate 3 is likely to be an anomaly, not a standard. There was a bunch of Dev. chatter about this a few weeks ago actually, in fact (which was then quickly picked up by the "be outraged" youtubers). Here is an unrolled thread talking about such.











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Edit: Oh hey! Look! You scrolled down. Neat. It occurred to me that I need to say one more thing. Business types... are stupid. No stupider than the rest of us (in theory anyway), but the power they wield is often done so (in my experience anyway) in a very monkey see monkey do mentality.

What's that saying? I fear no man, but these fuckwads scare me. Or something like that, I may be paraphrasing.

Once the Game Industry STANDS-THEFUCK-UP and Unionizes like other creative industries, and "Crunch Culture" becomes a well overdue relic of the past, among other things, then yeah... let's hit it. Learn from something like Baldur’s Gate 3, indeed. But not before the gosh-darned meat grinder jaws that often get switched on to serve to shareholders on a silver platter get disabled and reworked into something actually useful for everyone involved, "meat" included. Otherwise, I'm afraid Mr.Nelson Jr. over here may be on to something. Unfortunately.

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Maybe Bungie can learn from this?

by cheapLEY @, Saturday, August 05, 2023, 18:12 (354 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

I don't even mean anything about the size or scope. I just wish live service games would die. Let's go back to putting out complete games that don't ask for more money at every turn, all while failing to live up to even the most basic promises.

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+1

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Sunday, August 06, 2023, 15:18 (353 days ago) @ cheapLEY

- No text -

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Maybe Bungie can learn from this?

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, August 05, 2023, 18:20 (354 days ago) @ INSANEdrive
edited by Cody Miller, Saturday, August 05, 2023, 18:24

2: Baldur’s Gate 3 is likely to be an anomaly, not a standard.

These 'anomalous conditions' can be controlled. A large studio can recreate those conditions should they wish. But they don't. It's easier to make bullshit monetization platforms than to create a truly exceptional game.

The thread states the following make it unrealistic:

Dev cycle stretching back to ~2017

Lots of huge games have had 6+ year developments. Not anomalous.

Two massive games--and their Definitive editions--worth of tech and institutional knowledge to draw from

Studios can treat their workers right instead of churning through them in order to hold onto institutional knowledge. Nothing about this is unobtainable.

Super successful Early Access period lasting 3 years, providing crucial community feedback, bug hunting, and cash flow

Nothing stopping a studio from doing this. Not unobtainable.

Over 400 developers in 7 different offices around the world [not including outsourcing partners]

Super Obtainable. Many AAA studios are even bigger than this.

The license, brand, and world of one of the largest entertainment IPs in the world (D&D), at the apex of its popularity with the rise of the actual play movement, and a movie

IP is something major publisher and developers have tons of. Not unobtainable.

Of course, not every RPG should be like this. Not every great game has to be absolutely giant in scope. Nobody is going to hold smaller teams to the same standard. But most AAA developers have no real ground to stand on when they say they could not do it. They are right in a sense; they can't do it because they haven't cultivated the conditions to do so. And that is BY CHOICE.

If this becomes something players expect from AAA games in the future, other AAA studios will simply have to make these conditions the norm and adapt. If big studios don't want to do this, they should simply say 'We don't want to make this type of game". To say they can't even in theory is just making excuses.

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Maybe Bungie can learn from this?

by cheapLEY @, Saturday, August 05, 2023, 19:00 (354 days ago) @ Cody Miller

To say they can't even in theory is just making excuses.

Of course developers are turning the discourse into managing expectations. Wouldn't want folks to get used to not being fed dogshit.

Maybe Bungie can learn from this?

by EffortlessFury @, Tuesday, August 08, 2023, 04:33 (351 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Lots of huge games have had 6+ year developments. Not anomalous.

Define lots. I can't even think of ten profitable titles with a 6+ year dev cycle.

Over 400 developers in 7 different offices around the world [not including outsourcing partners]


Super Obtainable. Many AAA studios are even bigger than this.

Many? I feel like just a few years ago, Bungie's size was considered massive.

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Maybe Bungie can learn from this?

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, August 08, 2023, 13:09 (351 days ago) @ EffortlessFury

Lots of huge games have had 6+ year developments. Not anomalous.


Define lots. I can't even think of ten profitable titles with a 6+ year dev cycle.

Over 400 developers in 7 different offices around the world [not including outsourcing partners]


Super Obtainable. Many AAA studios are even bigger than this.


Many? I feel like just a few years ago, Bungie's size was considered massive.

Times have changed. A lot of AAA games have more than 400 people working on them these days.

Maybe Bungie can learn from this?

by EffortlessFury @, Tuesday, August 08, 2023, 04:26 (351 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I’m not sure Diablo 4 is a game anyone should be looking to as an example of how to do anything correctly, and definitely not in the way this article talks about. Would you really want to play more Destiny if it took away all your gear and upgrades and made you start from zero every three months?

I wish they’d learn from something like Baldur’s Gate 3 instead (based on what I’ve seen about it so far).

There's a difference between the items being taken from you and the character being moved out of the seasonal designation and into a standard save. Additionally, if the seasonal grind was designed around being restarted every season, it might not be so annoying. Additionally, if you fall off before the season is over, at least you can continue in non-seasonal capacity when you return.

I still prefer Diablo 3's model (similar to this one) than to the one Destiny 2 had for years. The content you were already playing had its light level requirement increased and returning to the game meant you couldn't play that content anymore, period, until you did your grind. Diablo doesn't do that.

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Maybe Bungie can learn from this?

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, August 08, 2023, 09:23 (351 days ago) @ EffortlessFury

The content you were already playing had its light level requirement increased and returning to the game meant you couldn't play that content anymore, period, until you did your grind. Diablo doesn't do that.

That is actually a fair point that I hadn’t considered, oddly enough, since that was my main gripe with Destiny for ages. Both of those models actually suck though.

Maybe Bungie can learn from this?

by EffortlessFury @, Tuesday, August 08, 2023, 13:14 (351 days ago) @ cheapLEY

The content you were already playing had its light level requirement increased and returning to the game meant you couldn't play that content anymore, period, until you did your grind. Diablo doesn't do that.


That is actually a fair point that I hadn’t considered, oddly enough, since that was my main gripe with Destiny for ages. Both of those models actually suck though.

Diablo's isn't ideal, but at the end of the day, when you game is all about grinding the same content endlessly, how much does it really matter if the idea is to constantly give you a ladder to climb?

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Maybe Bungie can learn from this?

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, August 08, 2023, 13:48 (351 days ago) @ EffortlessFury

I guess that’s my greater point. If your game is about grinding the same content endlessly, you’ve made a bad game.

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