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Myelin Interviews Lorraine Mclees. (Destiny)

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, November 07, 2023, 14:55 (164 days ago)

Just saw this in my feed. I haven’t watch yet, but figured others would be interested to see it.

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Great Interview

by Robot Chickens, Tuesday, November 07, 2023, 16:49 (164 days ago) @ cheapLEY

What an amazing talent!

She cuts against the grain of people being categorized into good guys and bad guys. What a sweet personality. Between her and Salvatori, it gives me pause about how quick the narratives have formed.

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Great Interview

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Tuesday, November 07, 2023, 22:56 (164 days ago) @ Robot Chickens

What an amazing talent!

She cuts against the grain of people being categorized into good guys and bad guys. What a sweet personality. Between her and Salvatori, it gives me pause about how quick the narratives have formed.

I started watching this earlier tonight but haven't yet finished. Your comment doesn't surprise me. She's always been one of my favorites, and I am heartbroken by what's happened.

None of this means that she and Salvatori haven't been done wrong. I wish I could turn the other cheek with such grace. I admire it.

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Great Interview

by Robot Chickens, Wednesday, November 08, 2023, 09:33 (164 days ago) @ Kermit

What an amazing talent!

She cuts against the grain of people being categorized into good guys and bad guys. What a sweet personality. Between her and Salvatori, it gives me pause about how quick the narratives have formed.


I started watching this earlier tonight but haven't yet finished. Your comment doesn't surprise me. She's always been one of my favorites, and I am heartbroken by what's happened.

None of this means that she and Salvatori haven't been done wrong. I wish I could turn the other cheek with such grace. I admire it.

Yeah, if you’re firing these people, you’ve done something wrong. They are paying the price for some massive miscalculations that are impacting the whole industry.

As I said in another place, organizations allow humans to do things to people we would never do on our own. They can feel like family until goals no longer align.

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Great Interview

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, November 08, 2023, 13:11 (163 days ago) @ Robot Chickens

What an amazing talent!

She cuts against the grain of people being categorized into good guys and bad guys. What a sweet personality. Between her and Salvatori, it gives me pause about how quick the narratives have formed.


I started watching this earlier tonight but haven't yet finished. Your comment doesn't surprise me. She's always been one of my favorites, and I am heartbroken by what's happened.

None of this means that she and Salvatori haven't been done wrong. I wish I could turn the other cheek with such grace. I admire it.


Yeah, if you’re firing these people, you’ve done something wrong. They are paying the price for some massive miscalculations that are impacting the whole industry.

It's a good reminder that many companies in the tech space are in trouble. I don't deny that bad actors exist. I don't deny that greed and a whole range of human foibles came into play. I don't deny that individuals at Bungie have been treated badly in the past. Yet I know good people still work there (a high percentage of them, no doubt), they care about their work, and I'm sad for them, having to suffer through the publicity shitstorm.


As I said in another place, organizations allow humans to do things to people we would never do on our own. They can feel like family until goals no longer align.

Truth! And it must be said, organizations allow humans to accomplish positive things that they couldn't do as individuals. Change is the only constant. No arrangement is permanent.

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Great Interview

by Coaxkez, Tuesday, November 07, 2023, 23:21 (164 days ago) @ Robot Chickens

Between her and Salvatori, it gives me pause about how quick the narratives have formed.

While I will admit readily that this woman has more class and grace than I would ever be able to muster in her situation, it’s not like the narratives have been formed in a vacuum. We’ve seen very negative comments from ex-employees on Twitter. We have a total lack of outward accountability or communication from management. We are still faced with the fundamental truth that Bungie’s workforce took the hit for the miscalculations of the company’s management — just before the holidays and one single day prior to stock vesting. Even Lorraine herself corroborated certain details from the original reports which gave me pause; in particular, the manner in which the layoffs were announced and handled internally.

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Some thoughts.

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, November 08, 2023, 20:00 (163 days ago) @ cheapLEY

The SPNKR was supposed to be freaking green?! Man, that just seems weird.

I grabbed my copy of the Halo Graphic Novel after Lorraine said she thought her forward was mean. She seems too nice. I get what she means, she was pretty blunt about the bad pitch from the franchise development group. But it didn't strike me as particularly mean, just kinda straight forward. I guess we could have the discussion about the necessity of putting down a bad pitch instead of focusing on how cool this book in my hands is.

And man, is it ever cool. I spent some time flipping through the pages, and I read a few of the stories for first time since I bought it new 17 (!!!) years ago. It's a cool project, and I'm so happy to have it, even if I've only looked at it like three times in nearly twenty years.

It also makes me nostalgic and a little sad. I have no doubt that Bungie is filled with passionate people overflowing with cool ideas they might never get to see realized, but where is that passion as a company? What happened to the Bungie that put together a freaking graphic novel and then pitched it to publishers? Where's the Destiny graphic novel or anime? I don't want to just shit on modern Bungie, lord knows I do that enough. And I know the market conditions have changed from the Halo days (Hell, why put in the effort as a company to put together a graphic novel when you can just keep pumping out $20 skins for so much less effort? That's not a criticism, either, but a genuine rhetorical question from a business standpoint.) I think Bungie made something pretty cool with Destiny, even if I don't really like it anymore, but listening to Lorraine talk about her history and flipping through this graphic novel really drove home how special the Halo era was.

I'm sure there are plenty of folks that had these exact same thoughts about the Marathon era, just as there will be plenty more folks that will look wistfully back at Destiny-era Bungie in ten years.

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Some thoughts.

by kidtsunami @, Atlanta, GA, Wednesday, November 08, 2023, 22:30 (163 days ago) @ cheapLEY

The SPNKR was supposed to be freaking green?! Man, that just seems weird.

I grabbed my copy of the Halo Graphic Novel after Lorraine said she thought her forward was mean. She seems too nice. I get what she means, she was pretty blunt about the bad pitch from the franchise development group. But it didn't strike me as particularly mean, just kinda straight forward. I guess we could have the discussion about the necessity of putting down a bad pitch instead of focusing on how cool this book in my hands is.

And man, is it ever cool. I spent some time flipping through the pages, and I read a few of the stories for first time since I bought it new 17 (!!!) years ago. It's a cool project, and I'm so happy to have it, even if I've only looked at it like three times in nearly twenty years.

It also makes me nostalgic and a little sad. I have no doubt that Bungie is filled with passionate people overflowing with cool ideas they might never get to see realized, but where is that passion as a company? What happened to the Bungie that put together a freaking graphic novel and then pitched it to publishers? Where's the Destiny graphic novel or anime? I don't want to just shit on modern Bungie, lord knows I do that enough. And I know the market conditions have changed from the Halo days (Hell, why put in the effort as a company to put together a graphic novel when you can just keep pumping out $20 skins for so much less effort? That's not a criticism, either, but a genuine rhetorical question from a business standpoint.) I think Bungie made something pretty cool with Destiny, even if I don't really like it anymore, but listening to Lorraine talk about her history and flipping through this graphic novel really drove home how special the Halo era was.

I'm sure there are plenty of folks that had these exact same thoughts about the Marathon era, just as there will be plenty more folks that will look wistfully back at Destiny-era Bungie in ten years.

I'm sorry I'm missing something here.

I'm currently wearing the purple oversized destiny hoodie and I'm wondering what you're talking about. Bungie has published 5 volumes of a grimoire that has provided deep deep lore while providing interesting, practically, in universe merch.

As a fan from the minotaur, marathon, myth days, I have no idea what you are talking about. My kids play with a damn hive worm casually. This is something the bungie of Halo's heyday never achieved. They haven't lost their verve. They've lost some absolute god damn giants. I'll never give any leader (like Parsons) any slack, but I stand by the crew Lorraine still obviously is rooting for.

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Some thoughts.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, November 08, 2023, 22:32 (163 days ago) @ kidtsunami

As a fan from the minotaur, marathon, myth days, I have no idea what you are talking about. My kids play with a damn hive worm casually. This is something the bungie of Halo's heyday never achieved.

That's because Halo was rated M, and Destiny rated T. The toys are now kid appropriate :-p

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Some thoughts.

by Robot Chickens, Thursday, November 09, 2023, 07:48 (163 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Ummm. I remember having these guys marketed to me as a kid. I’m not sure anybody cared about ratings and age appropriateness.

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Some thoughts.

by cheapLEY @, Thursday, November 09, 2023, 10:03 (163 days ago) @ kidtsunami

I’ve been trying to figure out a response without sounding like an asshole, but maybe I just am, so I can’t.

I don’t want to downplay the effort and passion that undoubtedly went in to making the grimoire books a reality. I’m sure it wasn’t easy, and they’re beautiful books (or at least the first one is—it’s the only one I bought).

But I see a world of difference in packaging already existing stories from the game and making a collection of original comics from renowned artists. Like, packaging the lore books into actual books just seems like an obvious thing to do. Maybe this makes me look totally silly and callous, but the Grimoire books feel more like merchandise, whereas the graphic novel feels like art. That is a highly reductive and unfair of me, and I don’t actually think the Grimoire books aren’t art. But one feels like a business play, and one feels like a passion project. Again, I know that’s unfair, and maybe it’s just my nostalgia talking, but everything modern Bungie does feels like a business decision instead of someone asking “what’s the coolest thing we could do here?”

Maybe I’m just too jaded now and that’s the only difference, and I absolutely will not discount that possibility.

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Some thoughts.

by Coaxkez, Thursday, November 09, 2023, 10:15 (163 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I think it's worth remembering that Bungie still went to the trouble of creating that lore in the first place, whether or not it was originally intended for separate publication.

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Some thoughts.

by cheapLEY @, Thursday, November 09, 2023, 10:33 (163 days ago) @ Coaxkez
edited by cheapLEY, Thursday, November 09, 2023, 10:42

This is where I really risk showing my negativity.

That lore is all great, and I am genuinely glad it exists, but even that seems like a cop out, because it exists in place of any actual narrative that should drive the video game they make. Like, even the lore books themselves seem like a sort of creatively bankrupt shortcut used instead of writing an actual story and making cutscenes. That’s admittedly in a better situation than it used to be, but it still seems like they lean on those lore books to make anything happening in the game have any narrative meaning whatsoever.

EDIT: I don’t actually know how to phrase it, but calling it “creatively bankrupt” is far, far harsher than I actually intend. What’s a much softer version of that?

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Some thoughts.

by Coaxkez, Thursday, November 09, 2023, 13:36 (162 days ago) @ cheapLEY

EDIT: I don’t actually know how to phrase it, but calling it “creatively bankrupt” is far, far harsher than I actually intend. What’s a much softer version of that?

Afterthought.

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Some thoughts.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, November 09, 2023, 14:03 (162 days ago) @ Coaxkez

I think it's worth remembering that Bungie still went to the trouble of creating that lore in the first place, whether or not it was originally intended for separate publication.

Let's all quote Lindsay Ellis:

"No meaning, only Lore."

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nah that's fair

by kidtsunami @, Atlanta, GA, Thursday, November 09, 2023, 12:11 (162 days ago) @ cheapLEY

- No text -

Some thoughts.

by Avateur @, Thursday, November 09, 2023, 12:16 (162 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I’ve been trying to figure out a response without sounding like an asshole, but maybe I just am, so I can’t.

I don’t want to downplay the effort and passion that undoubtedly went in to making the grimoire books a reality. I’m sure it wasn’t easy, and they’re beautiful books (or at least the first one is—it’s the only one I bought).

But I see a world of difference in packaging already existing stories from the game and making a collection of original comics from renowned artists. Like, packaging the lore books into actual books just seems like an obvious thing to do. Maybe this makes me look totally silly and callous, but the Grimoire books feel more like merchandise, whereas the graphic novel feels like art. That is a highly reductive and unfair of me, and I don’t actually think the Grimoire books aren’t art. But one feels like a business play, and one feels like a passion project. Again, I know that’s unfair, and maybe it’s just my nostalgia talking, but everything modern Bungie does feels like a business decision instead of someone asking “what’s the coolest thing we could do here?”

Maybe I’m just too jaded now and that’s the only difference, and I absolutely will not discount that possibility.

Don’t forget this: https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=170156

I get what you’re saying as a whole regarding Bungie’s actions or motivation vs. the actual art and talent that was used to develop something as excellent as the actual writing within the Grimoire.

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Some thoughts.

by cheapLEY @, Thursday, November 09, 2023, 13:03 (162 days ago) @ Avateur

Make no mistake—I’m not trying to minimize the love and care and work that went into creating it, especially on an individual level, nor do I want to minimize (or even compare) it’s artistic merit as a project. I’m truly happy it exists (both as an addition in the game and as beautiful books).

Some thoughts.

by Avateur @, Thursday, November 09, 2023, 13:18 (162 days ago) @ cheapLEY

For sure! I totally understood your intent. The other post reinforces your thoughts. A lot of individual talent and love went into this, and a lot of unfortunate, soul-destroying crunch was used by Bungie as part of making it happen. I agree with the sentiment of how the Halo Graphic Novel came to be and got put out vs. throwing the Grimoire into books. One definitely seems purely transactional from the corporate Bungie perspective compared to the other. Not that we’d know definitively, but hey.

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Some thoughts.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, November 09, 2023, 14:09 (162 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Make no mistake—I’m not trying to minimize the love and care and work that went into creating it, especially on an individual level, nor do I want to minimize (or even compare) it’s artistic merit as a project. I’m truly happy it exists (both as an addition in the game and as beautiful books).

Here's a fun fact.

Names were being thrown around for people to do the Graphic Novel, and Pete Parsons really wanted Alan Moore for some reason. After being told there would be exactly zero chance of him doing it, Pete just said:

"Everyone has their price."

🤦‍♂️

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Some thoughts.

by Coaxkez, Thursday, November 09, 2023, 14:28 (162 days ago) @ Cody Miller

He probably knew nothing about Alan Moore outside of his work, but hey, you've gotta admit that his ambition yielded Moebius, who was a perfect choice for that project.

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Some thoughts.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, November 09, 2023, 14:00 (162 days ago) @ cheapLEY

You know what's funny?

The Halo Graphic Novel was literally the exact moment in time that I first began to doubt Bungie.

https://forums.bungie.org/halo/archive25.pl?read=735437

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You're right.

by Coaxkez, Thursday, November 09, 2023, 14:03 (162 days ago) @ Cody Miller

That is funny.

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You're right.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, November 09, 2023, 14:05 (162 days ago) @ Coaxkez

That is funny.

To be fair, it's 17 years later and those stories are STILL not finished.

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Honestly

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Tuesday, November 14, 2023, 18:58 (157 days ago) @ cheapLEY
edited by Kermit, Tuesday, November 14, 2023, 19:16

I like Myelin, but I wish he knew Bungie lore halfway as well as he knows Destiny lore. At least for the sake of this interview. I understand why ex-Bungie folks do these things with streamers. That's where the audience is. Maybe it's the wealth of high-quality podcasts these days, but damn I just don't enjoy listening to unprepared interviewers, and it doesn't help having a comment section scrolling inanities down half the screen the whole time. Give me Tim Ferris or Terry Gross or the Hot Ones guy or SOMEONE who does some research.

Lorraine is a sweetheart, and she indulged him, but it was clear she expected him to know some things he didn't, and I got frustrated at his seemingly not understanding basic stuff, like code names for example, that had to be explained. I kept thinking about how much richer the interview could have been had a long-time fan done the interviewing (Hey Lorraine! [makes a "call me" gesture]). I'm not saying the interview should not have been accessible to newer fans, but a good, prepared interviewer could have easily made it so with a few "for viewers who don't know" asides. I admit I'm jealous, so keep that in mind if I say I don't think he was a great listener. Then again, I don't know how streamers game and talk to live commenters at the same time. I couldn't. God knows I don't think anyone could do that while also trying to do one of the hardest things in the world, which is really listening to someone who's talking.

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Honestly

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, November 14, 2023, 20:11 (157 days ago) @ Kermit

but I wish he knew Bungie lore halfway as well as he knows Destiny lore

I thought the oddball being Captain Keyes was common lore, and who the hell doesn't know Ling-Ling?! But, again, that's sort of a sign of the change both in Bungie and the community. How would anyone who jumped on board with Destiny know Ling-Ling? Do they even know the Webmaster? That stuff just doesn't happen any more. Maybe there are new in-jokes I'm not aware of, because, even for as long as I played Destiny, I wasn't connected to Bungie the same way I was during Halo.

Regardless of his Bungie lore knowledge, and as much as I enjoyed listening to Lorraine, I didn't find this to be a super compelling interview. I'll give him a bit of a break on interview prep, because I think it really was supposed to be a more casual chat than a proper interview, but even so, it feels like someone a little more skillful at doing that could have extracted a lot more here. And I'm not talking about juicy details of current Bungie; I just mean more of the stories Lorraine seemed willing and eager to tell. It seems like every time it started to get really interesting, he pulled her in a different direction instead of just letting her continue or asking compelling questions to dig deeper.

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Honestly

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, November 15, 2023, 07:31 (157 days ago) @ cheapLEY

It seems like every time it started to get really interesting, he pulled her in a different direction instead of just letting her continue or asking compelling questions to dig deeper.

Didn't see this yet, but man this is interviewing 101. If they are talking about something interesting, let them keep talking about it!

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Honestly

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, November 15, 2023, 10:04 (157 days ago) @ cheapLEY
edited by Kermit, Wednesday, November 15, 2023, 10:37

Regardless of his Bungie lore knowledge, and as much as I enjoyed listening to Lorraine, I didn't find this to be a super compelling interview. I'll give him a bit of a break on interview prep, because I think it really was supposed to be a more casual chat than a proper interview, but even so, it feels like someone a little more skillful at doing that could have extracted a lot more here.

A more knowledgeable fan wouldn't have needed to prep very much, and the starting point would've been less shallow. I take your point, though. A better listener would not have needed much prep.

I'm not talking about juicy details of current Bungie; I just mean more of the stories Lorraine seemed willing and eager to tell. It seems like every time it started to get really interesting, he pulled her in a different direction instead of just letting her continue or asking compelling questions to dig deeper.

Exactly. It really bothered me.

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Agreed

by Robot Chickens, Wednesday, November 15, 2023, 11:58 (156 days ago) @ Kermit

It really bugged me that he was so ignorant of the previous context for Lorraine. When I said, "great interview," I meant it was great to let her digest her new situation in a long informal manner. I've never heard her talk outside of soundbites and it was refreshing to have that perspective.

As an interviewer, he's a nice enough guy, but he just was not informed on the subject matter. I think that can be forgiven because he runs a destiny-focused channel, they knew each other, and it was more informal in nature as a way to engage the community. In other words, this wasn't set up to be serious journalism.

Beyond that, we're all getting older and it may not be fair to expect everyone to "get it." I definitely have some knowledge gaps about things I came to be a fan of after they had already had a storied history. For instance, I love D&D and Heather and I have been running a game for friends for the last 6-7 years. However, I know nothing beyond some stories of the earlier versions of the game and its relation with the public. I wasn't around when people were ostracized for their passion for instance. I would have enjoyed an interview of this type for a grizzled ancient in D&D while an older fan would probably have found it more flat. Fathers and Sons, the Circle of Life, etc. It makes me wonder how many things I've come to later in their lifespan and enjoyed it just that little bit less because I was missing context. On the other hand, I wonder how much I enjoyed them just a little bit more because I was missing context.

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Agreed

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, November 15, 2023, 16:03 (156 days ago) @ Robot Chickens

It really bugged me that he was so ignorant of the previous context for Lorraine. When I said, "great interview," I meant it was great to let her digest her new situation in a long informal manner. I've never heard her talk outside of soundbites and it was refreshing to have that perspective.

As an interviewer, he's a nice enough guy, but he just was not informed on the subject matter. I think that can be forgiven because he runs a destiny-focused channel, they knew each other, and it was more informal in nature as a way to engage the community. In other words, this wasn't set up to be serious journalism.

Don't get me wrong. I didn't want Mike freaking Wallace. I didn't mind informal or casual.


Beyond that, we're all getting older and it may not be fair to expect everyone to "get it." I definitely have some knowledge gaps about things I came to be a fan of after they had already had a storied history. For instance, I love D&D and Heather and I have been running a game for friends for the last 6-7 years. However, I know nothing beyond some stories of the earlier versions of the game and its relation with the public. I wasn't around when people were ostracized for their passion for instance. I would have enjoyed an interview of this type for a grizzled ancient in D&D while an older fan would probably have found it more flat. Fathers and Sons, the Circle of Life, etc. It makes me wonder how many things I've come to later in their lifespan and enjoyed it just that little bit less because I was missing context. On the other hand, I wonder how much I enjoyed them just a little bit more because I was missing context.

I suspect I'm the oldest who still posts here, so let me be cranky, Robot! I just wish Lorraine didn't have to spend so much time explaining the significance of the MacWorld demo, for example. You're right. I'm not being fair to Myelin, and she chose him.

I certainly know what it's like to be a newbie fan. I've gotten into post-WWII Japanese cinema lately, and as much as I enjoy it, I know there's as mountain of context I just can't get as a 21st century American, and that's okay. It's prompted me to read, and the more I learn, the more there is to appreciate, and there's something awesome about understanding the past. It keeps you humble about the present, for one thing. Circle of life, like you said. We tend to think of people in the past as different from us, but they're mostly not, for better or worse. All that's a tangent, though.

I feel like I should've kept my feelings to myself. Sorry for being a grump. The interview got better the further it went, for sure, and I could have done a better job of acknowledging that. I certainly don't love Lorraine any less, and Myelin is a good bloke.

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Agreed

by Robot Chickens, Thursday, November 16, 2023, 11:14 (155 days ago) @ Kermit

I suspect I'm the oldest who still posts here, so let me be cranky, Robot!

My bad. We all get to yell at clouds every once in a while.

I just wish Lorraine didn't have to spend so much time explaining the significance of the MacWorld demo, for example. You're right. I'm not being fair to Myelin, and she chose him.

I certainly know what it's like to be a newbie fan. I've gotten into post-WWII Japanese cinema lately, and as much as I enjoy it, I know there's as mountain of context I just can't get as a 21st century American, and that's okay. It's prompted me to read, and the more I learn, the more there is to appreciate, and there's something awesome about understanding the past. It keeps you humble about the present, for one thing. Circle of life, like you said. We tend to think of people in the past as different from us, but they're mostly not, for better or worse.

Truth. The context can change, but the hardware is largely the same. We love, hate, experience joy, grapple with what it means to feel secure and it rarely is an exception to the vast experience of humanity. Dead people's thoughts are often very insightful.

I feel like I should've kept my feelings to myself.

Nope. Judging by the responses, I think we all felt it. For me, it felt like a mischaracterization of genre (perhaps on our part).

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