Bungie turmoil

https://www.ign.com/articles/bungie-devs-say-atmosphere-is-soul-crushing-amid-layoffs-cuts-and-fear-of-total-sony-tak...

Assuming the reporting is accurate, this is all very sad and unfortunate. And Bungie could conceivably lose its independence, again.

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Assuming the reporting is accurate, this is all very sad and unfortunate. And Bungie could conceivably lose its independence, again.

https://www.ign.com/articles/bungie-devs-say-atmosphere-is-soul-crushing-amid-layoffs-cuts-and-fear-of-total-sony-tak...

While the exact details of Sony’s deal to acquire Bungie remain unknown to the public or employees, sources say they were told by leaders that the current split board structure is contingent on Bungie meeting certain financial goals. If Bungie falls short of its financial goals by too great an amount, Sony is allowed to dissolve the existing board and take full control of the company.

Along with the recent layoffs, this has resulted in a massive decay in morale within the company, according to IGN’s sources, one of whom told us that the mood within the studio has been “soul-crushing” over the last month. And it doesn’t sound like management is making any significant efforts toward improving the atmosphere, either.

"I’m angry. I’m upset. This isn’t what I came here to do,” one person said. “It feels like many higher ups aren’t listening to the data and are like, ‘We just need to win our fans back, they still like us.’ No. They don’t...We got rid of some of our most knowledgeable beloved folks who have been here for 20+ years. Everyday I walk in afraid that I or my friends are next. No one is safe."

Others said they were rebuffed repeatedly and discouraged from even discussing the layoffs whenever they tried to ask questions. Employees in one department recalled a post-layoffs Q&A session where a department head was asked if leadership taking salary cuts to prevent layoffs had been considered, only to respond that Bungie was “not that type of company.”

Another anxiety sources discussed with us was that many of the reductions made at Bungie recently were part of a broader move toward outsourcing. Multiple individuals across various departments told us they’d heard discussions within their teams of plans to increase outsourcing both before and in the wake of the layoffs.

It's over. Laying off key people with decades of knowledge. Sony being able to dissolve the board if financial goals aren't met. Outsourcing work. Any one of those three things is an existential threat. But all of them at once?

I think it's time to emotionally prepare for the death of this company. We can hope for a miracle, but I wouldn't expect it.

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department head was asked if leadership taking salary cuts to prevent layoffs had been considered, only to respond that Bungie was “not that type of company.”

I can pretend to be surprised if you want.

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… Right?

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… Right?

I AM rooting for the 1000 odd folks getting fucked over by market conditions and management.

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As am I.

In all honesty, I almost wonder if the best thing for Bungie and its remaining employees would, in fact, be... a Sony board takeover. I know that's a little crazy to say out loud, but could they really do any worse than the current management?

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department head was asked if leadership taking salary cuts to prevent layoffs had been considered, only to respond that Bungie was “not that type of company.”

I can pretend to be surprised if you want.

Yeah, that quote in particular feels like it is ripe to be taken out of context. I’m not saying bad actors don’t exist, I just get skeptical when the villains begin to twirl their mustaches in a narrative.

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It’s a shame (and very understandable) that morale is this low. Lately, Bungie has been delivering great content.

The reprise of Crota was fantastic
Season of the Witch was really good
The Coil activity is fun and has a firefight element that adds some challenge
Warlord’s Ruin had great atmosphere and was a perfect challenge level the whole way through
Going back another season, I loved the Season of the Deep, but I may be alone in that enthusiasm.

If Lightfall was bad enough that it killed Destiny/Bungie, that’s saying something (I personally thought the story was the worst thing Bungie has written since Halo 3’s “to war” line).

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It’s a shame (and very understandable) that morale is this low. Lately, Bungie has been delivering great content.

The reprise of Crota was fantastic
Season of the Witch was really good
The Coil activity is fun and has a firefight element that adds some challenge
Warlord’s Ruin had great atmosphere and was a perfect challenge level the whole way through
Going back another season, I loved the Season of the Deep, but I may be alone in that enthusiasm.

If Lightfall was bad enough that it killed Destiny/Bungie, that’s saying something (I personally thought the story was the worst thing Bungie has written since Halo 3’s “to war” line).

Everything bad that we read may be true, but I'm sure that everything we read is far from everything there is. I work for a big software company. Whether it's the best company ever or total shit depends greatly on who you ask, but it's easy to get testimonies for both points of view--especially the latter if you know where to look because the latter is the coin of the internet realm.

I mean no offense to people who I like to call friends, but it's interesting to me that the people who seem most eager to "share the good news," as the evangelists used to say, are people who don't play anymore or who show up when there's this kind of thing to share. Not to get too psychoanalytical, but it's almost if they need or want public vindication for how they've chosen to spend their time--especially from those who have chosen differently. And I say good news because it feels like it might be that. I mean, who wants to be the guy who swore off buying gold when the price rebounds and starts breaking records. For that guy a gold crash is vindication.

TL;DNR The new dungeon is fun, y'all.

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Things are obviously horrible for Bungie right now. I don't see how you can hand-wave that away with bothsidesism. We talk about it because we care.

I haven't played Destiny since Beyond Light. Why? Because I got tired of the MTX squeeze and the "minimum viable product" decisions impacting project scope and the in-game economy. Does that make me a "bad fan"? Does it mean that my voice holds less weight than yours?

Dude, I want Bungie to pull through and find their way back to excellence.

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Dude, I want Bungie to pull through and find their way back to excellence.

"Bungie" is just a legal fiction. Especially now that essentially nobody there now was a part of the games that many of us loved. I care about talented people making great games. That can happen under any label.

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There are still many talented people capable of producing great games at Bungie today. They deserve better management. I have full confidence that the existing team can produce AAA-quality masterpieces with the right changes to culture and management. It starts with Parsons, who should have been fired years ago; all of the company's poor decisions since 2016 are his responsibility as CEO, but since he sits on the board as well, I think we're probably stuck with him.

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There are still many talented people capable of producing great games at Bungie today. They deserve better management. I have full confidence that the existing team can produce AAA-quality masterpieces with the right changes to culture and management. It starts with Parsons, who should have been fired years ago; all of the company's poor decisions since 2016 are his responsibility as CEO, but since he sits on the board as well, I think we're probably stuck with him.

I think we agree, sorry about the confusion.

I was saying that Bungie could crash and burn, but it wouldn't matter, if the talented people there now were able to go somewhere else and make great games.

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If there was any confusion, it was my fault... or so my wife has taught me (and she is always right, of course).

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Things are obviously horrible for Bungie right now. I don't see how you can hand-wave that away with bothsidesism. We talk about it because we care.

Look, the layoffs were bad news, indisputably. Where is my bothsidesism? The fact that I don't claim to know everything? I can speak with more authority to the example I gave about my company--I do believe both appraisals are wrong and the truth is very complicated. (And honestly, I hate the way "bothsidesism" is used dismiss nuance in a world where seemingly every effing issue is between the self-righteous good and self-evident evil, and you gotta choose. No one has the humility to admit blind spots. Not on the internet anyway.)

I haven't played Destiny since Beyond Light. Why? Because I got tired of the MTX squeeze and the "minimum viable product" decisions impacting project scope and the in-game economy. Does that make me a "bad fan"?

Of course not, no more than I'm a fool for continuing to play (and liking it).

Does it mean that my voice holds less weight than yours?

No, but we may have different perspectives, and for better or worse, I speculated about how we all tend to operate, which is we seek to confirm our biases and justify our choices. In my case, Bungie's content has been the main course of my gaming diet since 1994, and I've seen some stuff. The great betrayal of '96, the fiasco of '97, the second great betrayal of 2000--the list is long, and I've heard a good bit of dirty laundry along the way. I know a much of it is true, and that's bad.

And yet... do you know what's obviously not horrible for Bungie right now? A lot of people had a great time playing their game in the last week, including some people here. That affects what I think about articles such as these, and my degree of hope. How could it not?

Dude, I want Bungie to pull through and find their way back to excellence.

Good. [fist bump]

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who wants to be the guy who swore off buying gold when the price rebounds and starts breaking records. For that guy a gold crash is vindication.

There may be a hint of that, but I suspect we are all victims of algorithms. Those who don't enjoy Destiny, are likely to find content that reinforces that position. I know that when I have a strong reaction to a game, I often will look up what people are saying and it isn't uncommon for me to gravitate towards write-ups that share my reaction. That's totally normal, but it also trains the algorithms. My supposition is that old (former?) Bungie fans don't get the news when the game is doing something great. Or, if they do, it's channeled through a medium that is more akin to their viewpoint. When they come here to discuss concerning news about Bungie/Destiny (something that used to mean a lot to them), it's not out of malice, but its because that is the news they are getting.

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who wants to be the guy who swore off buying gold when the price rebounds and starts breaking records. For that guy a gold crash is vindication.

There may be a hint of that, but I suspect we are all victims of algorithms.

For certain. I didn't say I was immune.

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I don't even think it's as nefarious as the almighty algorithm.

That some people are still playing Destiny and it's still fun isn't news-worthy. No one is out there writing that story. Bungie firing a bunch of people and tanking employee moral with seemingly no real answers or way forward is. I can't see or come here and post stories that don't exist.

And counter to what's implied, I'm not sitting around waiting for bad Bungie news so that I can rush here and gleefully post it. I just post the stuff I see that's relevant and either interesting or worth talking about. I've actually done what I can to cull my feeds of Destiny stuff (seriously, YouTube, I don't want to be recommended Datto, I never have, how many times do I have to tell you this?), but actual news still breaks through.

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That some people are still playing Destiny and it's still fun isn't news-worthy. No one is out there writing that story.

People are making posts here about it, and speaking of YouTube, the videos I've watched about the new dungeon in particular are pretty enthusiastic, but this is true: if it bleeds it leads.

Bungie firing a bunch of people and tanking employee moral with seemingly no real answers or way forward is.

The first is no longer news, the second is predictable, and the last is speculative. There's a lot of hearsay in that article. Believable hearsay, admittedly.

I do think Bungie's made some big mistakes. As I've posted before, I care about the people that were laid off, and I also care about the people who are still there, who are wanting to make something cool.

I guess I'm just very suspicious of media in 2023. They just want clicks.

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That some people are still playing Destiny and it's still fun isn't news-worthy. No one is out there writing that story.

People are making posts here about it, and speaking of YouTube, the videos I've watched about the new dungeon in particular are pretty enthusiastic, but this is true: if it bleeds it leads.

Speaking of youtube, I watched your Death of Cinema link.

https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=181327

Thread was now locked, so here we go:

So I watched it.

The title should actually be “Who is killing adult oriented dramas?”

Now, I’m not an expert, and this is just my own rumination. Everything he says is probably a little bit right and certainly factors, but I think it’s more cultural. You might think I’m totally wrong here. I’m willing to tell you it’s a narrow perspective.

I think it has to do with the declining emotional intelligence of younger generations.

The data are pretty clear here. Younger generations are less horny. They are less socially insightful. They are more neurotic. Dreadful. Nervous. More isolated from community.

Adult Oriented Dramas are all about emotions. That’s the whole point of them. So when we have younger generations that are emotionally impoverished, then it makes absolute sense why they would not want to see these types of films.

Young people don’t think sex scenes should go in movies anymore. What the fuck? An emotionally intense action, that can be riddled with joy, passion, conflict, shame, and who knows how many other complex emotions, is seen as ‘unnecessary’! That might have to do with all the antidepressants people are on now decreasing their sex drives, but it goes even beyond just sex. ANY sort of fraught or emotionally charged situations are met with revulsion. The mere existence of trigger warnings proves their inability to properly navigate painful emotions.

I don’t think it’s their fault. Like, I totally get why people would WANT these warnings, because having a fucking panic attack in the middle of a theater sucks. But such a person has been done a disservice when they’ve been told the way to avoid that is to avoid intense emotions altogether, rather than learning to deal with and process them.

I probably sound like a boomer, but yeah. Adult Oriented Dramas are dying because people genuinely do not seem to want to navigate complex adult feelings anymore.

Paramount Plus spent 200 million dollars on a Halo TV show. Do you know anyone who actually watched that show? No, of course not.

😂

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That some people are still playing Destiny and it's still fun isn't news-worthy. No one is out there writing that story.

People are making posts here about it, and speaking of YouTube, the videos I've watched about the new dungeon in particular are pretty enthusiastic, but this is true: if it bleeds it leads.

Speaking of youtube, I watched your Death of Cinema link.

https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=181327

Thread was now locked, so here we go:

So I watched it.

The title should actually be “Who is killing adult oriented dramas?”

Now, I’m not an expert, and this is just my own rumination. Everything he says is probably a little bit right and certainly factors, but I think it’s more cultural. You might think I’m totally wrong here. I’m willing to tell you it’s a narrow perspective.

I think it has to do with the declining emotional intelligence of younger generations.

The data are pretty clear here. Younger generations are less horny. They are less socially insightful. They are more neurotic. Dreadful. Nervous. More isolated from community.

Adult Oriented Dramas are all about emotions. That’s the whole point of them. So when we have younger generations that are emotionally impoverished, then it makes absolute sense why they would not want to see these types of films.

Young people don’t think sex scenes should go in movies anymore. What the fuck? An emotionally intense action, that can be riddled with joy, passion, conflict, shame, and who knows how many other complex emotions, is seen as ‘unnecessary’! That might have to do with all the antidepressants people are on now decreasing their sex drives, but it goes even beyond just sex. ANY sort of fraught or emotionally charged situations are met with revulsion. The mere existence of trigger warnings proves their inability to properly navigate painful emotions.

I don’t think it’s their fault. Like, I totally get why people would WANT these warnings, because having a fucking panic attack in the middle of a theater sucks. But such a person has been done a disservice when they’ve been told the way to avoid that is to avoid intense emotions altogether, rather than learning to deal with and process them.

I probably sound like a boomer, but yeah. Adult Oriented Dramas are dying because people genuinely do not seem to want to navigate complex adult feelings anymore.

Okay, boomer. I kid. Hate when people say that. You said I might think you're totally wrong, but what if I think you're totally right? Sssshh, don't tell anyone, but I'm pretty sure you are. I don't completely trust my opinion because it's so perfectly natural for anyone my age to say "these kids today" followed by the kinds of things you are saying. Plus, generalizations get people's back up, understandably. Channeling the social psychologist Jonathan Haidt, I think screens have done much damage to people, especially young ones. Covid cranked everything to 11. Throughout human history, the vast majority of interactive activity involved other humans. Now so much of it is mediated. We've lost or failed to gain skills we used to have. Skills to relate, skills to persuade, skills to be kind. You've done a great job connecting your observations to our taste in entertainment. I think it's a brilliant thesis.

That other thread was in some respects about the decline of physical media. To do my part, I decided that I'd spend $100 a year on Criterion Collection 4K titles when they go on sale. (The technology is never going to get better to an extent that these old eyes could detect, so why not?). For your judgment, amusement or entertainment, this week I ordered:

The Last Picture Show
Notorious
Time Bandits
Blow Out

A few I already had on DVD because they're favorites. Thank goodness I had some "Adult Oriented Dramas" in there.

Paramount Plus spent 200 million dollars on a Halo TV show. Do you know anyone who actually watched that show? No, of course not.

😂

Yeah, I chuckled at that, too.

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I mean, who wants to be the guy who swore off buying gold when the price rebounds and starts breaking records. For that guy a gold crash is vindication.

Gold never laid people off a month before their stocks would vest.

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I mean no offense to people who I like to call friends, but it's interesting to me that the people who seem most eager to "share the good news," as the evangelists used to say, are people who don't play anymore or who show up when there's this kind of thing to share. Not to get too psychoanalytical, but it's almost if they need or want public vindication for how they've chosen to spend their time--especially from those who have chosen differently. And I say good news because it feels like it might be that. I mean, who wants to be the guy who swore off buying gold when the price rebounds and starts breaking records. For that guy a gold crash is vindication.

I’m not sure if this was directed at me, but I didn’t have any bad intentions with my sharing it, and I’m definitely not pleased to see Bungie in this state. I don’t speak up on Destiny, good or bad, because I don’t have anything to contribute. I haven’t been rooting for Destiny to fail, and I don’t want Bungie to fail. I just don’t play Destiny anymore and haven’t in a long time. I still follow what Bungie’s doing, and I’m just waiting for whatever future projects may appeal to me that aren’t Destiny. And, unfortunately, this new Bungie news really sucks, is pretty big news (I had no idea Sony could take away their independence), and figured people here would like to know and discuss.

I just thought I’d let you know where I was at in case you thought I was rooting against Bungie or something.

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I mean no offense to people who I like to call friends, but it's interesting to me that the people who seem most eager to "share the good news," as the evangelists used to say, are people who don't play anymore or who show up when there's this kind of thing to share. Not to get too psychoanalytical, but it's almost if they need or want public vindication for how they've chosen to spend their time--especially from those who have chosen differently. And I say good news because it feels like it might be that. I mean, who wants to be the guy who swore off buying gold when the price rebounds and starts breaking records. For that guy a gold crash is vindication.

I’m not sure if this was directed at me, but I didn’t have any bad intentions with my sharing it, and I’m definitely not pleased to see Bungie in this state. I don’t speak up on Destiny, good or bad, because I don’t have anything to contribute. I haven’t been rooting for Destiny to fail, and I don’t want Bungie to fail. I just don’t play Destiny anymore and haven’t in a long time. I still follow what Bungie’s doing, and I’m just waiting for whatever future projects may appeal to me that aren’t Destiny. And, unfortunately, this new Bungie news really sucks, is pretty big news (I had no idea Sony could take away their independence), and figured people here would like to know and discuss.

I just thought I’d let you know where I was at in case you thought I was rooting against Bungie or something.

That's fair, but know that I did not assume bad intentions.

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I will once again call specifically for the dismissal of Pete Parsons ASAP.

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Its crap like this is the reason I retired in April. No more having to deal with the greed, stupidity and seeing the decay of our society within the work force. I've seen what its like working in a company that is committing suicide.

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https://www.ign.com/articles/bungie-devs-say-atmosphere-is-soul-crushing-amid-layoffs-cuts-and-fear-of-total-sony-tak...

Assuming the reporting is accurate, this is all very sad and unfortunate. And Bungie could conceivably lose its independence, again.

This is awful considering how much I'm loving the game at the moment. The ease with which I'm trying builds from https://mobalytics.gg/destiny-2/builds the fun of the coil activity, going to the lighthouse on my first card of the season with a character I haven't played since Lightfall launch.

The game is actually in such a good spot (starter pack not withstanding) while the company is on fire.

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Eh. I'd say the game is in an "okay" spot. Content updates continue to be pretty meager and certain game modes continue to be pretty much neglected. They just killed Gambit earlier this year.

Things have absolutely been much worse than this before, so it's doing "okay" for now, but it's not exactly great either.

The more relevant issue is that 2023 has been a red letter year for gaming in general. (Not for the industry, mind you, but certainly for the hobby.) "Okay" isn't good enough when masterpiece titles like Baldur's Gate 3, Alan Wake 2, Spider-Man 2, and Tears of the Kingdom are competing for players. Destiny 2 needs to be evolving continuously to keep up with new developments in the industry, but it just... isn't. It's an old game that feels old, and that's no bueno in 2023.

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Eh. I'd say the game is in an "okay" spot. Content updates continue to be pretty meager and certain game modes continue to be pretty much neglected. They just killed Gambit earlier this year.

I'd say the things they add are more significant than anything in the Halo days, and yet we never complained about any lack of content like you see online nowadays (for any game, not just Destiny).

The difference? Community content. Every day we had new custom games to play, new screenshots, new maps, machinima, puzzles, montages, and so on. Tools like Forge, Theater, and Customs allowed Bungie to outsource the work of bringing new content to the game, completely for free, to the players themselves. And we loved it.

TL;DR - Destiny needs Forge, Theater, and Customs.

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Eh. I'd say the game is in an "okay" spot. Content updates continue to be pretty meager and certain game modes continue to be pretty much neglected. They just killed Gambit earlier this year.

I'd say the things they add are more significant than anything in the Halo days, and yet we never complained about any lack of content like you see online nowadays (for any game, not just Destiny).

The difference? Community content. Every day we had new custom games to play, new screenshots, new maps, machinima, puzzles, montages, and so on. Tools like Forge, Theater, and Customs allowed Bungie to outsource the work of bringing new content to the game, completely for free, to the players themselves. And we loved it.

TL;DR - Destiny needs Forge, Theater, and Customs.

Even today, everyone's hatred of 343 not withstanding, it's wild seeing what the community is doing with Forge in Halo Infinite.

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Eh. I'd say the game is in an "okay" spot. Content updates continue to be pretty meager and certain game modes continue to be pretty much neglected. They just killed Gambit earlier this year.

I'd say the things they add are more significant than anything in the Halo days, and yet we never complained about any lack of content like you see online nowadays (for any game, not just Destiny).

The difference? Community content. Every day we had new custom games to play, new screenshots, new maps, machinima, puzzles, montages, and so on. Tools like Forge, Theater, and Customs allowed Bungie to outsource the work of bringing new content to the game, completely for free, to the players themselves. And we loved it.

TL;DR - Destiny needs Forge, Theater, and Customs.

Even today, everyone's hatred of 343 not withstanding, it's wild seeing what the community is doing with Forge in Halo Infinite.

I’d argue that 343 has hit its No Man’s Sky threshold. People are finally happy with the state of Halo Infinite (store prices and bundles notwithstanding), and the addition of things that should have been in the game at launch are finally being met with celebration rather that this-should-have-been-in-the-game-at-launch-isms.

This week alone saw the initial launch of a proper Firefight mode, more coatings have been made cross-core, and the networking is receiving significant improvements. And with stuff like cross-core shoulders and some as-yet-unrevealed content being teased, I think we’re looking at a healthy relationship between 343 and its community finally being the norm.

Say what you will about how hard 343 pivots to cater to the vocal fans, but at least it’s finally paying off. Infinite’s population has never been more consistently active. Now we just need ODST 2 and I’ll declare them the better Halo dev.

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Say what you will about how hard 343 pivots to cater to the vocal fans, but at least it’s finally paying off.

They even fixed all those graphical bugs in Halo 1! Most people didn't care. But I did.

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Say what you will about how hard 343 pivots to cater to the vocal fans, but at least it’s finally paying off.

They even fixed all those graphical bugs in Halo 1! Most people didn't care. But I did.

Wait, really?

I’m going to fire up 343 for some swamp vibes.

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Say what you will about how hard 343 pivots to cater to the vocal fans, but at least it’s finally paying off.

They even fixed all those graphical bugs in Halo 1! Most people didn't care. But I did.

Wait, really?

I’m going to fire up 343 for some swamp vibes.

So I'm told! All the weirdness that was the 'classic' mode is now apparently fixed to actually match the real xbox game.

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So I'm told! All the weirdness that was the 'classic' mode is now apparently fixed to actually match the real xbox game.

Also H2.

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So I'm told! All the weirdness that was the 'classic' mode is now apparently fixed to actually match the real xbox game.

Also H2.

MCC is by far the best Halo anything around in 2023. They’ve done masterful work fixing up the campaigns and multiplayer, adding mod support, and on and on.

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People are finally happy with the state of Halo Infinite (store prices and bundles notwithstanding),

That’s still the rub for me. When you look at the value of Baldur’s Gate 3 or Remnant 2, it’s hard for me to get excited about a game that wants $25 for a set of armor. Lord knows I’ve spent my fair share of money on stupid microtransactions, but god damn there’s got to be a limit. That the game is free only goes so far towards mitigating it. I’d have much rather pairs $70 for a complete Halo Infinite in which I could make a cool looking Spartan on day one instead of being expected to buy it piece meal over years.

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I’d have much rather pairs $70 for a complete Halo Infinite in which I could make a cool looking Spartan on day one instead of being expected to buy it piece meal over years.

Business has won out over what's best artistically.

I would love to see the revenue breakdown of Whales vs Normals. I'm really curious if most money comes from whales, or from the long tail of occasional purchasers.

Edit:

Wikipedia says:

As a result of this distribution, whales typically provide most of the revenue in free to play games, and in some cases, 50% of the revenue comes from 0.15% of players ("white whales") in one report.[36][37]

This tells me the problem in profitability is the price cap that a game's purchase price sets. So higher price points won't really help, since it would always be less than the level of the average Whale. Free to Play is essentially maximally effective Price discrimination.

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It's particularly odd given how strongly "in" MS is with GamePass. What is the value of Gamepass in a world of FTP games? Or vice versus.

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It's particularly odd given how strongly "in" MS is with GamePass. What is the value of Gamepass in a world of FTP games? Or vice versus.

I'm not sure if it applies to all F2P games or if there's some other condition involved, but there is a discount on DLC and game-specific currencies with Game Pass. For example, back when Destiny was in Game Pass, you could get a discount on purchasing Silver.

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The difference? Community content.

My grumpy old man soap box says that we've become a society of "I want everything, now, for free, and it has to be awesome." And if it doesn't check all those boxes, 5% of people go online and rage against it, then that's viewed as "everyone hates it"

Halo was different because there was no reward to earn. The reward was, playing it and having fun. Whether it's matchmaking or customs with friends. Then they added ranks, and you had a little number by your name. With that, a little bit of fun died and sweat began to form. The chase of seeing that number go up consumed us.

Fast forward to now and how often do you play a game just for the fun of it. And I'm genuinely asking that question! The games I play, I have fun playing them but the thing I'm playing for is "to unlock this mod" or "to complete this challenge". It's the chase of that gratification.

And if we aren't constantly being served a gratifying moment, well it's hot garbage on fire and there's no other option.

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Halo was different because there was no reward to earn. The reward was, playing it and having fun. Whether it's matchmaking or customs with friends. Then they added ranks, and you had a little number by your name. With that, a little bit of fun died and sweat began to form. The chase of seeing that number go up consumed us.

Fast forward to now and how often do you play a game just for the fun of it. And I'm genuinely asking that question! The games I play, I have fun playing them but the thing I'm playing for is "to unlock this mod" or "to complete this challenge". It's the chase of that gratification.

#codywasright

https://forums.bungie.org/halo/archive35.pl?read=1039755

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369 views

Halo was different because there was no reward to earn. The reward was, playing it and having fun. Whether it's matchmaking or customs with friends. Then they added ranks, and you had a little number by your name. With that, a little bit of fun died and sweat began to form. The chase of seeing that number go up consumed us.

Fast forward to now and how often do you play a game just for the fun of it. And I'm genuinely asking that question! The games I play, I have fun playing them but the thing I'm playing for is "to unlock this mod" or "to complete this challenge". It's the chase of that gratification.

#codywasright

https://forums.bungie.org/halo/archive35.pl?read=1039755

What's interesting is that just a couple of days ago I was having a conversation with someone about a baffling take I'd seen. Someone ran content dry in a game with just 5-10 minutes of optional low effort daily investment in-between frequent content drops and quit out of boredom; however, despite there now being years of new content, they still feel like other games are more deserving of their time. Essentially, the mentality being that a game without constant "meaningful" progression available at all times is not a good enough value of time invested, even if the vast majority of your time spent in the game is novel content, not even repetitive content like Halo MP or Destiny's playlists.

Games are now expected to give your time spent a long-term value outside of the momentary joy and are worth less if they do not. The old school sentiment has been entirely flipped around for some folk, and I find that so tragic. Luckily there are still games out there that cater to the idea that a finite amount of novel content is a worthy use of time spent, but man is it a shame that there are some who view that as a poor time investment.

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What's interesting is that just a couple of days ago I was having a conversation with someone about a baffling take I'd seen. Someone ran content dry in a game with just 5-10 minutes of optional low effort daily investment in-between frequent content drops and quit out of boredom; however, despite there now being years of new content, they still feel like other games are more deserving of their time. Essentially, the mentality being that a game without constant "meaningful" progression available at all times is not a good enough value of time invested, even if the vast majority of your time spent in the game is novel content, not even repetitive content like Halo MP or Destiny's playlists.

Let's talk about that word:

Progression

Let's just say social media is to blame. Progression used to mean working toward something in your own head - enjoyment, the building of skills, or the having of unique experiences. But you can't always share or show off what's in your head. So now, Progression is linked to Trophies, checklists, counters, and STUFF. Things you can easily point to.

Pics or it didn't happen.

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Disagree.

It's how leveling has been applied to games that was the problem.

D&D leveling was to simulate your character getting better at a skill over time. YOU aren't actually firing a bow, your character is. So YOU can't really have a sense of mastery or improvement over that, hence the leveling system to simulate your character mastering a skill.

But in games… well you can actually perform those actions and get better at them. But, early designers just used the numbers go up you get more powerful mechanic of D&D, without understanding WHY it worked there, but not in a video game where you have direct control over actions.

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338 views

Halo was different because there was no reward to earn. The reward was, playing it and having fun. Whether it's matchmaking or customs with friends. Then they added ranks, and you had a little number by your name. With that, a little bit of fun died and sweat began to form. The chase of seeing that number go up consumed us.

Fast forward to now and how often do you play a game just for the fun of it. And I'm genuinely asking that question! The games I play, I have fun playing them but the thing I'm playing for is "to unlock this mod" or "to complete this challenge". It's the chase of that gratification.

#codywasright

https://forums.bungie.org/halo/archive35.pl?read=1039755

What's interesting is that just a couple of days ago I was having a conversation with someone about a baffling take I'd seen. Someone ran content dry in a game with just 5-10 minutes of optional low effort daily investment in-between frequent content drops and quit out of boredom; however, despite there now being years of new content, they still feel like other games are more deserving of their time. Essentially, the mentality being that a game without constant "meaningful" progression available at all times is not a good enough value of time invested, even if the vast majority of your time spent in the game is novel content, not even repetitive content like Halo MP or Destiny's playlists.

Games are now expected to give your time spent a long-term value outside of the momentary joy and are worth less if they do not. The old school sentiment has been entirely flipped around for some folk, and I find that so tragic. Luckily there are still games out there that cater to the idea that a finite amount of novel content is a worthy use of time spent, but man is it a shame that there are some who view that as a poor time investment.

Are they playing the game to complete bars, or is the game that they’re playing the type that can be played with friends and won/lost regardless of the “progression” taking place? We’ve seen some version of this even with achievement hunters over a decade ago who would drop a game the moment they got every achievement. If they’re having fun doing completionist activities, I understand why they would be “bored” after they’ve done them. Different play styles and all, right?

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Halo was different because there was no reward to earn. The reward was, playing it and having fun. Whether it's matchmaking or customs with friends. Then they added ranks, and you had a little number by your name. With that, a little bit of fun died and sweat began to form. The chase of seeing that number go up consumed us.

Fast forward to now and how often do you play a game just for the fun of it. And I'm genuinely asking that question! The games I play, I have fun playing them but the thing I'm playing for is "to unlock this mod" or "to complete this challenge". It's the chase of that gratification.

#codywasright

https://forums.bungie.org/halo/archive35.pl?read=1039755

What's interesting is that just a couple of days ago I was having a conversation with someone about a baffling take I'd seen. Someone ran content dry in a game with just 5-10 minutes of optional low effort daily investment in-between frequent content drops and quit out of boredom; however, despite there now being years of new content, they still feel like other games are more deserving of their time. Essentially, the mentality being that a game without constant "meaningful" progression available at all times is not a good enough value of time invested, even if the vast majority of your time spent in the game is novel content, not even repetitive content like Halo MP or Destiny's playlists.

Games are now expected to give your time spent a long-term value outside of the momentary joy and are worth less if they do not. The old school sentiment has been entirely flipped around for some folk, and I find that so tragic. Luckily there are still games out there that cater to the idea that a finite amount of novel content is a worthy use of time spent, but man is it a shame that there are some who view that as a poor time investment.

Are they playing the game to complete bars, or is the game that they’re playing the type that can be played with friends and won/lost regardless of the “progression” taking place? We’ve seen some version of this even with achievement hunters over a decade ago who would drop a game the moment they got every achievement. If they’re having fun doing completionist activities, I understand why they would be “bored” after they’ve done them. Different play styles and all, right?

The thing that confused me was that, continuing from your analogy, the person supposedly enjoyed the experience of getting these achievements, quit when there were none left to get, but the game continues to get new achievements with the same degree of fun. It's not worth going back to, though, because it does not perpetually offer new achievements for them whenever they want them. Because there is a wait, because it is not able to gratify at all times, it's not even worth going back when there are new experiences to be had.

It's a quantity over quality thing. Even if it's quality, because the quantity is not infinite, it's worth less, even if the quantity does rise frequently.

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342 views

Halo was different because there was no reward to earn. The reward was, playing it and having fun. Whether it's matchmaking or customs with friends. Then they added ranks, and you had a little number by your name. With that, a little bit of fun died and sweat began to form. The chase of seeing that number go up consumed us.

Fast forward to now and how often do you play a game just for the fun of it. And I'm genuinely asking that question! The games I play, I have fun playing them but the thing I'm playing for is "to unlock this mod" or "to complete this challenge". It's the chase of that gratification.

#codywasright

https://forums.bungie.org/halo/archive35.pl?read=1039755

What's interesting is that just a couple of days ago I was having a conversation with someone about a baffling take I'd seen. Someone ran content dry in a game with just 5-10 minutes of optional low effort daily investment in-between frequent content drops and quit out of boredom; however, despite there now being years of new content, they still feel like other games are more deserving of their time. Essentially, the mentality being that a game without constant "meaningful" progression available at all times is not a good enough value of time invested, even if the vast majority of your time spent in the game is novel content, not even repetitive content like Halo MP or Destiny's playlists.

Games are now expected to give your time spent a long-term value outside of the momentary joy and are worth less if they do not. The old school sentiment has been entirely flipped around for some folk, and I find that so tragic. Luckily there are still games out there that cater to the idea that a finite amount of novel content is a worthy use of time spent, but man is it a shame that there are some who view that as a poor time investment.

Are they playing the game to complete bars, or is the game that they’re playing the type that can be played with friends and won/lost regardless of the “progression” taking place? We’ve seen some version of this even with achievement hunters over a decade ago who would drop a game the moment they got every achievement. If they’re having fun doing completionist activities, I understand why they would be “bored” after they’ve done them. Different play styles and all, right?

The thing that confused me was that, continuing from your analogy, the person supposedly enjoyed the experience of getting these achievements, quit when there were none left to get, but the game continues to get new achievements with the same degree of fun. It's not worth going back to, though, because it does not perpetually offer new achievements for them whenever they want them. Because there is a wait, because it is not able to gratify at all times, it's not even worth going back when there are new experiences to be had.

It's a quantity over quality thing. Even if it's quality, because the quantity is not infinite, it's worth less, even if the quantity does rise frequently.

That’s definitely more baffling than what I was thinking this was. Is it along the lines of because the content they were seeking “ran out” and ended for a bit, they moved on to some other game that maybe met the needs better? I’ve known people who move on from a game once they’ve put it down, even if it was still enjoyable and did things they enjoyed, primarily because some other game took its place when they “paused” to play it. I don’t know, maybe I’m overthinking it while trying to figure out why someone would do what you’ve described.

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Halo was different because there was no reward to earn. The reward was, playing it and having fun. Whether it's matchmaking or customs with friends. Then they added ranks, and you had a little number by your name. With that, a little bit of fun died and sweat began to form. The chase of seeing that number go up consumed us.

Fast forward to now and how often do you play a game just for the fun of it. And I'm genuinely asking that question! The games I play, I have fun playing them but the thing I'm playing for is "to unlock this mod" or "to complete this challenge". It's the chase of that gratification.

#codywasright

https://forums.bungie.org/halo/archive35.pl?read=1039755

What's interesting is that just a couple of days ago I was having a conversation with someone about a baffling take I'd seen. Someone ran content dry in a game with just 5-10 minutes of optional low effort daily investment in-between frequent content drops and quit out of boredom; however, despite there now being years of new content, they still feel like other games are more deserving of their time. Essentially, the mentality being that a game without constant "meaningful" progression available at all times is not a good enough value of time invested, even if the vast majority of your time spent in the game is novel content, not even repetitive content like Halo MP or Destiny's playlists.

Games are now expected to give your time spent a long-term value outside of the momentary joy and are worth less if they do not. The old school sentiment has been entirely flipped around for some folk, and I find that so tragic. Luckily there are still games out there that cater to the idea that a finite amount of novel content is a worthy use of time spent, but man is it a shame that there are some who view that as a poor time investment.

Are they playing the game to complete bars, or is the game that they’re playing the type that can be played with friends and won/lost regardless of the “progression” taking place? We’ve seen some version of this even with achievement hunters over a decade ago who would drop a game the moment they got every achievement. If they’re having fun doing completionist activities, I understand why they would be “bored” after they’ve done them. Different play styles and all, right?

The thing that confused me was that, continuing from your analogy, the person supposedly enjoyed the experience of getting these achievements, quit when there were none left to get, but the game continues to get new achievements with the same degree of fun. It's not worth going back to, though, because it does not perpetually offer new achievements for them whenever they want them. Because there is a wait, because it is not able to gratify at all times, it's not even worth going back when there are new experiences to be had.

It's a quantity over quality thing. Even if it's quality, because the quantity is not infinite, it's worth less, even if the quantity does rise frequently.

That’s definitely more baffling than what I was thinking this was. Is it along the lines of because the content they were seeking “ran out” and ended for a bit, they moved on to some other game that maybe met the needs better? I’ve known people who move on from a game once they’ve put it down, even if it was still enjoyable and did things they enjoyed, primarily because some other game took its place when they “paused” to play it. I don’t know, maybe I’m overthinking it while trying to figure out why someone would do what you’ve described.

Yes, and what you've described is totally reasonable. The baffling part is the judgement call passed upon it when told that the game now has a ton of content since the person last played, which is that they have better games to spend their time on (despite at the same time saying they enjoyed the game when there was content). Basically, even if the game could sustain their play for, let's say hypothetically, another six continuous months of play, they still don't think it's worth returning, because it's not an endless font.

Grinding repetitive content, ala Diablo, Destiny, or many other games of their nature, are appealing to folks even if they do nothing "new" for months at a time, because any amount of boredom that might set in is offset by the investment value of that playtime. Even if you're running a Strike for the 1,000th time, you're getting loot that you can use in future new content, you're gaining BP levels that gain you materials and loot you can use to strengthen yourself for future new content, etc. You're always investing in the future, so it's not time wasted, even if it's not always time 100% enjoyed.

A game that provides a minimal and rather dull daily grind (let's say, 10-15 minutes total per day) of investment in future content, when the game doesn't even really need that past a certain point because there's no raising power ceiling, becomes less valuable of an investment in future content. You could just...stop playing and wait for more content, like watching other movies while waiting for the sequel to come out. I don't not watch a sequel because it took a year for them to make the next film, but some now view games as needing to fill this continuous void.

Keep in mind, this is single player content. Imagine if Halo, instead of having taken three years to come out with new story content, took three months. I would've been overjoyed! (I always loved the promise of the "episodic content" promise) But this mentality would have one move on from new single player content because it's not something that can be played ad nauseum. It's just weird to me that a person could find the single player content really enjoyable but then decide it's not worth continuing once they realized it's finite and discrete.

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Grinding repetitive content, ala Diablo, Destiny, or many other games of their nature, are appealing to folks even if they do nothing "new" for months at a time, because any amount of boredom that might set in is offset by the investment value of that playtime. Even if you're running a Strike for the 1,000th time, you're getting loot that you can use in future new content, you're gaining BP levels that gain you materials and loot you can use to strengthen yourself for future new content, etc. You're always investing in the future, so it's not time wasted, even if it's not always time 100% enjoyed.

How is that any different than playing a single player game with a definite end? I play level one to invest in my future of seeing the ending, and enjoying all the future levels while getting there!

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Grinding repetitive content, ala Diablo, Destiny, or many other games of their nature, are appealing to folks even if they do nothing "new" for months at a time, because any amount of boredom that might set in is offset by the investment value of that playtime. Even if you're running a Strike for the 1,000th time, you're getting loot that you can use in future new content, you're gaining BP levels that gain you materials and loot you can use to strengthen yourself for future new content, etc. You're always investing in the future, so it's not time wasted, even if it's not always time 100% enjoyed.

How is that any different than playing a single player game with a definite end? I play level one to invest in my future of seeing the ending, and enjoying all the future levels while getting there!

I somewhat agree with your point, but there is still a difference, in that the game is set up to sustain long-term play through continuous updates. That means there are still some of these types of incentive systems, daily login/quests (very minimal though), and so on that underpin a long-term game. And, regardless of whether or not these systems exist to further strengthen this implication, the implication is that the game will continue on a regular basis. Depending on your outlook, you're not just playing to the end of the present story, you're playing with the expectation that you're going to have more to play. When more does not come quickly enough, or what comes does not satisfy you, you could turn to other games that are more fulfilling more regularly.

But you're right, if one were to approach the game with as much of a classic, single-player, one-time game attitude and just look at updates as much faster, bite-sized releases than sequels tend to be, it's suddenly the best shit ever, IMO. As I've said before, it feels like the fulfillment of the promise of episodic narrative; the ability to partake in an on-going story that updates several times a year rather than having to wait years for a chunked release. But, the implementation of such a concept blurs the line with the current live service model, and so players' expectations have been set by the live service status quo, where in that regard it fails. I think that failure is its strength, because the status quo live service model sucks, but to those who have been conditioned to expect its trappings, and even like them, this idea falls short.

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But you're right, if one were to approach the game with as much of a classic, single-player, one-time game attitude and just look at updates as much faster, bite-sized releases than sequels tend to be, it's suddenly the best shit ever, IMO. As I've said before, it feels like the fulfillment of the promise of episodic narrative; the ability to partake in an on-going story that updates several times a year rather than having to wait years for a chunked release.

Critical Mass.

I think we've seen in general how frequent 'bite sized' releases are lacking. Look at Destiny. What are the most highly praised parts of the game? The big expansions. Taken King. Forsaken. Witch Queen.

It's because when you drop little pieces at once, there isn't that critical mass for that cohesive experience. If I'm telling you a joke, and that joke requires 60 seconds of setup for the punchline, then I can't tell you the joke in 6 separate ten second chunks. It doesn't work like that.

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But you're right, if one were to approach the game with as much of a classic, single-player, one-time game attitude and just look at updates as much faster, bite-sized releases than sequels tend to be, it's suddenly the best shit ever, IMO. As I've said before, it feels like the fulfillment of the promise of episodic narrative; the ability to partake in an on-going story that updates several times a year rather than having to wait years for a chunked release.

Critical Mass.

I think we've seen in general how frequent 'bite sized' releases are lacking. Look at Destiny. What are the most highly praised parts of the game? The big expansions. Taken King. Forsaken. Witch Queen.

It's because when you drop little pieces at once, there isn't that critical mass for that cohesive experience. If I'm telling you a joke, and that joke requires 60 seconds of setup for the punchline, then I can't tell you the joke in 6 separate ten second chunks. It doesn't work like that.

Does this argument also apply to television? It's not like they've chunked out one episode across multiple updates. Each release tells a relatively self-contained part of the story, with a "to be continued" to varying degrees depending on where in the major patch cycle you are.

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But you're right, if one were to approach the game with as much of a classic, single-player, one-time game attitude and just look at updates as much faster, bite-sized releases than sequels tend to be, it's suddenly the best shit ever, IMO. As I've said before, it feels like the fulfillment of the promise of episodic narrative; the ability to partake in an on-going story that updates several times a year rather than having to wait years for a chunked release.

Critical Mass.

I think we've seen in general how frequent 'bite sized' releases are lacking. Look at Destiny. What are the most highly praised parts of the game? The big expansions. Taken King. Forsaken. Witch Queen.

It's because when you drop little pieces at once, there isn't that critical mass for that cohesive experience. If I'm telling you a joke, and that joke requires 60 seconds of setup for the punchline, then I can't tell you the joke in 6 separate ten second chunks. It doesn't work like that.

Does this argument also apply to television? It's not like they've chunked out one episode across multiple updates. Each release tells a relatively self-contained part of the story, with a "to be continued" to varying degrees depending on where in the major patch cycle you are.

Yes, but that's the key. Each episode is supposed to stand on its own. You're given a complete story, that is part of a larger one.

You see this fail with lots of streaming shows. They drop all episodes at once, and it's pretty insufferable because it's expected to be binged, and each episode is just full of filler and not really a complete experience on its own.

But what's required for critical mass in 22 or 44 minutes of TV is vastly different than in a video game, because video games contain what TV does and more.

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But you're right, if one were to approach the game with as much of a classic, single-player, one-time game attitude and just look at updates as much faster, bite-sized releases than sequels tend to be, it's suddenly the best shit ever, IMO. As I've said before, it feels like the fulfillment of the promise of episodic narrative; the ability to partake in an on-going story that updates several times a year rather than having to wait years for a chunked release.

Critical Mass.

I think we've seen in general how frequent 'bite sized' releases are lacking. Look at Destiny. What are the most highly praised parts of the game? The big expansions. Taken King. Forsaken. Witch Queen.

It's because when you drop little pieces at once, there isn't that critical mass for that cohesive experience. If I'm telling you a joke, and that joke requires 60 seconds of setup for the punchline, then I can't tell you the joke in 6 separate ten second chunks. It doesn't work like that.

Does this argument also apply to television? It's not like they've chunked out one episode across multiple updates. Each release tells a relatively self-contained part of the story, with a "to be continued" to varying degrees depending on where in the major patch cycle you are.

Yes, but that's the key. Each episode is supposed to stand on its own. You're given a complete story, that is part of a larger one.

You see this fail with lots of streaming shows. They drop all episodes at once, and it's pretty insufferable because it's expected to be binged, and each episode is just full of filler and not really a complete experience on its own.

But what's required for critical mass in 22 or 44 minutes of TV is vastly different than in a video game, because video games contain what TV does and more.

Okay but each patch has hours of story. I think it clears the bar, for the most part. Additionally, it's not like the game is asking you (like Destiny) to play repetitive content in order to keep your account "relevant." If you walk away for a patch or two and come back to play a larger mass of content, difficulty does not constantly raise, so your account state has not changed relative to the rest of the game. So it's essentially just like television.

Honestly, Cody, it's very hard to explain all of the elements of the game necessary to convey how it sums up to be different than many of its peers. All I can say is that it is the only service based game, from the classic MMOs to the modern looter shooter, to make me continually log in every day, even if only for a few minutes, and to continuously satisfy me in both amounts of gameplay and amounts of story delivered. And all of it for free. Yes, the game will underserve anyone looking for a game that can provide continuous play like Destiny, Warframe, or a classic MMO, because it releases finite content. A world that can only be explored once, stories than can only be played once. Then it says, "hey if you want, you can log on for 15 minutes a day tops to keep building new characters, improving old ones, and getting some daily free currency, but otherwise, go play something else or touch some grass."

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All I can say is that it is the only service based game, from the classic MMOs to the modern looter shooter, to make me continually log in every day, even if only for a few minutes, and to continuously satisfy me in both amounts of gameplay and amounts of story delivered.

For me, at this stage in my life, I do not want to be 'satisfied'. I want to be in awe. I want to be changed and challenged. I want to have a profound experience. I want my imagination to blow up.

I don't want gaming comfort food. I want a meal I'll remember forever.

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All I can say is that it is the only service based game, from the classic MMOs to the modern looter shooter, to make me continually log in every day, even if only for a few minutes, and to continuously satisfy me in both amounts of gameplay and amounts of story delivered.

For me, at this stage in my life, I do not want to be 'satisfied'. I want to be in awe. I want to be changed and challenged. I want to have a profound experience. I want my imagination to blow up.

I don't want gaming comfort food. I want a meal I'll remember forever.

The overall experience I've had and will have had by the time this game is over is one no game will ever beat. It can not be compared to a meal because it is a "diet." No one will ever be able to replicate the effect that diet will have on you with a single meal or even an entire series of meals once every few years. It is an entirely different kind of experience.

That said, the analogy you just made has absolutely nothing to do with the kind of outlook I'd started this thread with. The kind of person I talked about with my first observation is the antithesis of you. They do not want to have a profound experience or be transformed; they simply want their time to matter toward something tangible other than the moment itself. The experience itself is not enough, nor is its personal impact. It needs to have a material impact, one that will manifest itself in the game at a later point in time.

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That said, the analogy you just made has absolutely nothing to do with the kind of outlook I'd started this thread with. The kind of person I talked about with my first observation is the antithesis of you. They do not want to have a profound experience or be transformed; they simply want their time to matter toward something tangible other than the moment itself.

That's the point. What they are asking for is paradoxical. "Mattering toward something tangible other than the moment itself" in the context of video games precludes something that actually matters. The 'tangible' thing has no inherent meaning, while chasing it devalues the thing that actually does have inherent meaning. The moment itself is the thing that actually matters!

The way I see it.

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All I can say is that it is the only service based game, from the classic MMOs to the modern looter shooter, to make me continually log in every day, even if only for a few minutes, and to continuously satisfy me in both amounts of gameplay and amounts of story delivered.

For me, at this stage in my life, I do not want to be 'satisfied'. I want to be in awe. I want to be changed and challenged. I want to have a profound experience. I want my imagination to blow up.

I don't want gaming comfort food. I want a meal I'll remember forever.

Also, on a specific note, there are absolutely many moments in this game I will remember forever. Leitmotifs that will make me cry in remembrance. Characters I will forever love.

You have some very good insights sometimes, Cody, but this is one of those times where I think you think you know something when you've got no clue. I think you've made a lot of assumptions that have no founding. Plenty of things can be stretched over time and be fulfilling (if not, life would be completely unfulfilling. You're forced to experience that over time). Maybe not to you, but that doesn't make the thing flawed.

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Plenty of things can be stretched over time and be fulfilling (if not, life would be completely unfulfilling. You're forced to experience that over time).

Never denied this.

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But you're right, if one were to approach the game with as much of a classic, single-player, one-time game attitude and just look at updates as much faster, bite-sized releases than sequels tend to be, it's suddenly the best shit ever, IMO. As I've said before, it feels like the fulfillment of the promise of episodic narrative; the ability to partake in an on-going story that updates several times a year rather than having to wait years for a chunked release.

Critical Mass.

I think we've seen in general how frequent 'bite sized' releases are lacking. Look at Destiny. What are the most highly praised parts of the game? The big expansions. Taken King. Forsaken. Witch Queen.

It's because when you drop little pieces at once, there isn't that critical mass for that cohesive experience. If I'm telling you a joke, and that joke requires 60 seconds of setup for the punchline, then I can't tell you the joke in 6 separate ten second chunks. It doesn't work like that.

The original point of this post was that the person preferred the Destiny approach. You're looking at what I'm describing and saying it shares the same flaws when I'm speaking about the kind of person who finds a clear preference for one over the other. You say, "it doesn't work like that," but it does for the person in question. So...what are you even trying to get at here?

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I think we've seen in general how frequent 'bite sized' releases are lacking. Look at Destiny. What are the most highly praised parts of the game? The big expansions. Taken King. Forsaken. Witch Queen.

It's because when you drop little pieces at once, there isn't that critical mass for that cohesive experience. If I'm telling you a joke, and that joke requires 60 seconds of setup for the punchline, then I can't tell you the joke in 6 separate ten second chunks. It doesn't work like that.

Stories where the story is something that you make/happens vs. story is provided by the creator may align well with the success/failure dividing line for this strategy.

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It's a live service game. The whole selling point is the developer's ability to maintain a constant stream of new content and game modes. Combined with the looter-shooter genre, the "chase for gratification" you describe so well is built into Destiny's DNA.

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Halo was different because there was no reward to earn. The reward was, playing it and having fun. Whether it's matchmaking or customs with friends. Then they added ranks, and you had a little number by your name. With that, a little bit of fun died and sweat began to form. The chase of seeing that number go up consumed us.

Fast forward to now and how often do you play a game just for the fun of it. And I'm genuinely asking that question! The games I play, I have fun playing them but the thing I'm playing for is "to unlock this mod" or "to complete this challenge". It's the chase of that gratification.

And if we aren't constantly being served a gratifying moment, well it's hot garbage on fire and there's no other option.

Might derail the thread a bit, sorry.

A Producer working at Criterion on Black (2006) was quoted as saying "It's got to be fun to shoot a gun in an empty room". Meaning that a game has to be its own reward, fun just to play. I'd say most great games achieve this. But I don't really like the modern trend of style over substance.

For example, Alan Wake 2. Now it's very immersive, and I've been loving the story. But the gameplay is just the most basic 3rd person shooter you can get. I'd struggle to call it a good video game. They chose incredible production value over gameplay substance. AW2 feels more like modern Sony games. Incredible stories, but story isn't really important to a video game like it is for a movie or comic etc. Gameplay is what sets video games apart.

You can have a great game with a bad story, but you can't have a good game with bad gameplay.

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You can have a great game with a bad story, but you can't have a good game with bad gameplay.

I don’t think that’s true. Or at least it depends on having a very loose definition of what good and bad gameplay are. Pathologic 2 is a phenomenal video game that borders on nearly being unplayably annoying. The moment to moment is awful in the traditional sense of a game feeling good to play. But it does that intentionally in service of its story and themes in a way that only video games can.

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You can have a great game with a bad story, but you can't have a good game with bad gameplay.

I don’t think that’s true. Or at least it depends on having a very loose definition of what good and bad gameplay are. Pathologic 2 is a phenomenal video game that borders on nearly being unplayably annoying. The moment to moment is awful in the traditional sense of a game feeling good to play. But it does that intentionally in service of its story and themes in a way that only video games can.

From what I can tell, looks like a first person point and click, what's wrong with it? Aren't the puzzles the main draw? Are they good?

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I’m genuinely not sure how you got that impression. It’s a sort of survival game in a smallish town that has a plague. It’s just brutally hard, but it’s also just like deliberately annoying to play. It’s difficult to describe.

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For example, Alan Wake 2. Now it's very immersive, and I've been loving the story. But the gameplay is just the most basic 3rd person shooter you can get. I'd struggle to call it a good video game.

But is shooting the entirety of the 'gameplay'? What else do you do in the game? Lots of things are fun to do in games that don't involve combat.

Mass Effect combat was absolute dogshit, yet people still seemed to love the game fine because it had other roleplaying elements to do.

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For example, Alan Wake 2. Now it's very immersive, and I've been loving the story. But the gameplay is just the most basic 3rd person shooter you can get. I'd struggle to call it a good video game.

But is shooting the entirety of the 'gameplay'? What else do you do in the game? Lots of things are fun to do in games that don't involve combat.

Bare-bones inventory management and braindead puzzles. GREAT atmosphere though...

Mass Effect combat was absolute dogshit, yet people still seemed to love the game fine because it had other roleplaying elements to do.

Right, shooting was bad but (I haven't played it) wasn't there more to it? Powers, and companions, and managing your cover? Seem to recall discussion of that nature, that if you're playing Mass Effect by shooting your way out then you're doing it wrong.

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You can have a great game with a bad story, but you can't have a good game with bad gameplay.

Every JRPG in the 90s would disagree.

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The difference? Community content.

My grumpy old man soap box says that we've become a society of "I want everything, now, for free, and it has to be awesome." And if it doesn't check all those boxes, 5% of people go online and rage against it, then that's viewed as "everyone hates it"

Halo was different because there was no reward to earn. The reward was, playing it and having fun. Whether it's matchmaking or customs with friends. Then they added ranks, and you had a little number by your name. With that, a little bit of fun died and sweat began to form. The chase of seeing that number go up consumed us.

Fast forward to now and how often do you play a game just for the fun of it. And I'm genuinely asking that question! The games I play, I have fun playing them but the thing I'm playing for is "to unlock this mod" or "to complete this challenge". It's the chase of that gratification.

And if we aren't constantly being served a gratifying moment, well it's hot garbage on fire and there's no other option.

And our monkey brains LOVE it. All of modern gaming has simply become our version of a Boomer's slot machine in a casino. The lights go off, a sound chimes, and a 'lil dopamine gets released even when you lose. Just enough to keep you playing.

If it didn't work, it wouldn't sell. But it does. The model hasn't really changed fundamentally.

Arcade games had to be balanced in such a way that they are fun to play, but get you to keep spending quarters.
Home console gaming in theory made it cheaper but for every Super Mario or Sonic the Hedge Hog, there was an Atari ET or Superman 64. If you bought a shit game, that was it. If you bought a hit, well that was in your favor. Hours\days\years of entertaiment on that purchase, all the vendor can do is sell more units of the game, but once you have it they can't make more money off you. Darn!

Online gaming (minus that golden era of peer-to-peer) puts favor back to the Arcade, er, Studio\publisher... the Casino, as it were.

Doing anything, anywhere, feels like this these days.

It really does feel like some company somewhere is literally trying to make money off me every minute I actually exist.

Many gamers are spoiled brats these days, for sure. Yet, they\we keep perpetuating the cycle. No incentive to change, I guess. Remember when McDonalds was cheap? Still making billons off people.

When people say "vote with your wallet!" it's such a crock of shit, because clearly not enough people are actually doing that lol. They complain and keep spending.

THAT SAID....

I guess the main reason I wanted to reply to you is to agree\vent but to say that these days, when I do find time for gaming it really is for the pursuit of fun. I've been having a blast with MCC and Infinite and I chase nothing. Not a thing, except wanting to win the match. Yeah, I see the news about SBMM woes (for many games) and that gaming feels 'sweatier' has some truth to it (save us, Max Hobermen of the world) when you tune out all the in-game stores, cosmetics and hooplah, games are still fun. Playing with the right people helps. Or playing old favorites, like you'd eat a comfort meal.

If you can make it past the slot machines sometimes the Casino has a great kitchen.

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Gaming has never been better. You just have to avoid the AAA games as service shit.

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Which I do. That's why I stopped playing Destiny ;)

Or, I'm that weirdo that plays a AAA game 5-10 years after it was a hit.

(In Destiny's defense, I loved the atmosphere and lore, and the PVP was fun I just couldn't keep up with the time demands... too much would change between rounds and I'd get frustrated re-learning the game again. Nuts to that.)

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Gaming has never been better. You just have to avoid the AAA games as service shit.

Not only better, but there is a way wider range of experiences that games can give us these days. The diversity compared to ages past is significant greater.

That does unfortunately, range from sublime, to total skinner box bullshit. Highs got higher, lows got lower.

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And our monkey brains LOVE it. All of modern gaming has simply become our version of a Boomer's slot machine in a casino. The lights go off, a sound chimes, and a 'lil dopamine gets released even when you lose. Just enough to keep you playing.

Wow! Twice in one thread such ageist rhetoric is casually deployed. That can get you into real trouble. In all seriousness, I know you weren't trying to be too derogatory. I'm not the biggest fan of the boomer generation, although I'm on the border of it. Such labels cut against my philosophy to judge individuals by how they are rather than what they are, but when talking about cultural trends (as you are), they sure are convenient.

If it didn't work, it wouldn't sell. But it does. The model hasn't really changed fundamentally.

Arcade games had to be balanced in such a way that they are fun to play, but get you to keep spending quarters.
Home console gaming in theory made it cheaper but for every Super Mario or Sonic the Hedge Hog, there was an Atari ET or Superman 64. If you bought a shit game, that was it. If you bought a hit, well that was in your favor. Hours\days\years of entertaiment on that purchase, all the vendor can do is sell more units of the game, but once you have it they can't make more money off you. Darn!

Online gaming (minus that golden era of peer-to-peer) puts favor back to the Arcade, er, Studio\publisher... the Casino, as it were.

Doing anything, anywhere, feels like this these days.

Hilarious, but sadly true.

It really does feel like some company somewhere is literally trying to make money off me every minute I actually exist.

Many gamers are spoiled brats these days, for sure. Yet, they\we keep perpetuating the cycle. No incentive to change, I guess. Remember when McDonalds was cheap? Still making billons off people.

When people say "vote with your wallet!" it's such a crock of shit, because clearly not enough people are actually doing that lol. They complain and keep spending.

THAT SAID....

I guess the main reason I wanted to reply to you is to agree\vent but to say that these days, when I do find time for gaming it really is for the pursuit of fun. I've been having a blast with MCC and Infinite and I chase nothing. Not a thing, except wanting to win the match. Yeah, I see the news about SBMM woes (for many games) and that gaming feels 'sweatier' has some truth to it (save us, Max Hobermen of the world) when you tune out all the in-game stores, cosmetics and hooplah, games are still fun. Playing with the right people helps. Or playing old favorites, like you'd eat a comfort meal.

Max Hobermen of the world. 👏

If you can make it past the slot machines sometimes the Casino has a great kitchen.

Hope you're doing well, Rev. Say hello to your better half.

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You sure are taking quite the confrontational tone. Even pulling up things from that long ago, eh? And making odd connections about when someone shows up to post as if it’s somehow about flaunting gameplay choices made that others haven’t made even though it was entirely irrelevant to the link and topic. But hey, I’m amused, so hey, got anything else fun you’d like to bring up from the past or create false equivalence with? :P

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You sure are taking quite the confrontational tone. Even pulling up things from that long ago, eh? And making odd connections about when someone shows up to post as if it’s somehow about flaunting gameplay choices made that others haven’t made even though it was entirely irrelevant to the link and topic. But hey, I’m amused, so hey, got anything else fun you’d like to bring up from the past or create false equivalence with? :P

Hey, sorry! I’m poking fun at the practice of using “boomer” perjoratively and remembered when I got accused of taking shots across the generational divide. We quickly made peace then and I’d like to now.

I still think there’s merit in the idea that people who have quit the game perceive bad news about the game differently and have different motivations for sharing the bad news. I thought it was something obvious about human nature but what the heck do I know?

Hey, off topic, thanks again for helping me secure those autographs all those years ago. Never forgot that. Was telling someone about it tonight.

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You sure are taking quite the confrontational tone. Even pulling up things from that long ago, eh? And making odd connections about when someone shows up to post as if it’s somehow about flaunting gameplay choices made that others haven’t made even though it was entirely irrelevant to the link and topic. But hey, I’m amused, so hey, got anything else fun you’d like to bring up from the past or create false equivalence with? :P

Hey, sorry! I’m poking fun at the practice of using “boomer” perjoratively and remembered when I got accused of taking shots across the generational divide. We quickly made peace then and I’d like to now.

I still think there’s merit in the idea that people who have quit the game perceive bad news about the game differently and have different motivations for sharing the bad news. I thought it was something obvious about human nature but what the heck do I know?

Hey, off topic, thanks again for helping me secure those autographs all those years ago. Never forgot that. Was telling someone about it tonight.

Haha, I think we're mostly on the same page, and I couldn't really tell entirely if you were having fun or were angry with a lot of what's been said in the thread (by myself and others), so I figured I'd see if there was something deeper there. As for people sharing bad news in general about Destiny or other games, there's absolutely merit to that. Over the past few years, I've tried to abstain from posting if I didn't have anything positive or worth while to contribute (I'm not perfect with it), but I definitely still lurk.

Although I haven't been posting frequently for a while now, I have noticed a lot of the same arguments and things occur in cycles here with Destiny. In my opinion, I'm sure some of it has to do with what you mentioned about wanting to share bad news, and a bunch of it is unrelated to that and appears to me like it's out of frustration at what Bungie is or isn't doing (potentially with no other motive than that beyond needing to vent, even if for the hundredth time). For what it's worth, while I don't find Destiny enjoyable to play, Bungie will always hold a special place in my heart, and I want nothing but the best for them. I still keep up with news about them because they are one of my favorite game studios of all time.

Oh and hey, it was my pleasure! Those were really good times, and I still think back on them. In our collective group of Bungie.org peoples (speaking beyond just you and me), we've had a ton of great and fun experiences and gaming, nifty conversations and debates, and while we may not always get along and might be unnecessarily mean to one another from time to time, as a whole, I think a lot of people have made awesome friendships and memories over the years.

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Haha, I think we're mostly on the same page, and I couldn't really tell entirely if you were having fun or were angry with a lot of what's been said in the thread (by myself and others), so I figured I'd see if there was something deeper there. As for people sharing bad news in general about Destiny or other games, there's absolutely merit to that. Over the past few years, I've tried to abstain from posting if I didn't have anything positive or worth while to contribute (I'm not perfect with it), but I definitely still lurk.

If you detect barbs in my responses, assume they're aimed at Cody, not you. (Love ya, Cody!)

Although I haven't been posting frequently for a while now, I have noticed a lot of the same arguments and things occur in cycles here with Destiny. In my opinion, I'm sure some of it has to do with what you mentioned about wanting to share bad news, and a bunch of it is unrelated to that and appears to me like it's out of frustration at what Bungie is or isn't doing (potentially with no other motive than that beyond needing to vent, even if for the hundredth time). For what it's worth, while I don't find Destiny enjoyable to play, Bungie will always hold a special place in my heart, and I want nothing but the best for them. I still keep up with news about them because they are one of my favorite game studios of all time.

I think another big disconnect is that I'm having more fun this season than I have in a while, so I'm not psychologically inclined to take in an anonymously sourced article as iron-clad evidence that the ship is sinking, even if turns out that every word of it is true.

Oh and hey, it was my pleasure! Those were really good times, and I still think back on them. In our collective group of Bungie.org peoples (speaking beyond just you and me), we've had a ton of great and fun experiences and gaming, nifty conversations and debates, and while we may not always get along and might be unnecessarily mean to one another from time to time, as a whole, I think a lot of people have made awesome friendships and memories over the years.

I have. The LANs I attended were great (which I acknowledge were long after the regular HBO LANs our proprietor used to host). Halofest was a seminal event for the community. 343 had not yet stumbled. Never before or since had so many of us gotten together. It was truly special.

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I'd like to add that perhaps Boomer might not be quite a pejorative here as pointing out that slot machines were of that generation, and the modern generation simply has its equivalent. Interesting, it bridges any divide that might be perceived, by (whether intentional or not) demonstrating that this newfangled way of hitting the happy button in our brains is not unique to our time or the presently young, just a new way of doing what has long been done.

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I'd like to add that perhaps Boomer might not be quite a pejorative here as pointing out that slot machines were of that generation, and the modern generation simply has its equivalent. Interesting, it bridges any divide that might be perceived, by (whether intentional or not) demonstrating that this newfangled way of hitting the happy button in our brains is not unique to our time or the presently young, just a new way of doing what has long been done.

Yeah, context matters and I got Rev's point. That's why I said he didn't intend it as too derogatory. But "boomer" isn't neutral, else we'd say baby boomer, right? I've had it used against me as a malicious insult, but Rev has nothing to do with that. I playacted as the uptight language police when I noticed two 30-somethings using it on the same thread. It was a weak joke not worth this much discussion.

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But "boomer" isn't neutral, else we'd say baby boomer, right?

That's now how I read it. Excluding the "baby" is a common abbreviation. It's fair to say that most usage excluding the "baby" is as insult, but that feels contextual to me.

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But "boomer" isn't neutral, else we'd say baby boomer, right?

That's now how I read it. Excluding the "baby" is a common abbreviation. It's fair to say that most usage excluding the "baby" is as insult, but that feels contextual to me.

Yeah, I said in my last response context matters. I wasn't offended--more like amused at the idea of acting offended. Really, though, the juice of my joke isn't worth all this squeeze.

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The more relevant issue is that 2023 has been a red letter year for gaming in general. (Not for the industry, mind you, but certainly for the hobby.) "Okay" isn't good enough when masterpiece titles like Baldur's Gate 3, Alan Wake 2, Spider-Man 2, and Tears of the Kingdom are competing for players.

"Don't hold us to these standards!!! Those studios had UnIQuE ConDItIOns."

-AAA devs in 2023

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Bungie turmoil (Destiny)

Bungie turmoil

Y’all are rooting for them to pull through, though, right?

Y’all are rooting for them to pull through, though, right?

Y’all are rooting for them to pull through, though, right?

Bungie turmoil

Sad Indeed

Sad Indeed

Sad Indeed

Sad Indeed

That is where we differ.

That is where we differ.

That is where we differ.

Sad Indeed

An alternate explanation

An alternate explanation

An alternate explanation

An alternate explanation

Who's Killing Cinema?

Who's Killing Cinema?

Sad Indeed

Sad Indeed

Sad Indeed

Management needs to be cleaned out big-time.

Bungie turmoil

Ugh

Ugh

Interesting.

Interesting.

Interesting.

Interesting.

Interesting.

Interesting.

Interesting.

Interesting.

<3

Just verified. It’s glorious

Interesting.

Interesting.

Interesting.

Interesting.

Interesting.

Interesting.

Interesting.

Interesting.

DnD and leveling ruined everything

DnD and leveling ruined everything

Interesting.

Interesting.

Interesting.

Interesting.

Interesting.

Interesting.

Interesting.

Interesting.

Interesting.

Interesting.

Interesting.

Interesting.

Interesting.

Interesting.

Interesting.

Really should sit and ruminate before posting.

Counterpoint: Fortnight (sp?)

Interesting.

Also Interesting.

Also Interesting.

Also Interesting.

Also Interesting.

Also Interesting.

Also Interesting.

Also Interesting.

Also GTA

Playing for 'fun' is still possible, it just seems harder

You all just need to play less bullshit.

You all just need to play less bullshit.

You all just need to play less bullshit.

Playing for 'fun' is still possible, it just seems harder