Losing the information war

I feel like the biggest issue I have with Crucible at the moment is I feel like I'm doing something wrong because I'm lacking information.

When I find out things like guns with higher impact rating but a lower attack numerical value can cause more damage than guns with lower impact rating but a higher attack numerical value, I get confused.

In Crucible, when I'm shooting that dude and he's shooting me and I die first, I'm left wondering--did he just out play me, or does he have a gun with a slightly better rate of fire or impact rating or something.

- Instead of the useless gun class icon that displays when players are killed by other players, I would like to see the name of the gun. That way, I know what gun just killed me, and if I see that gun killing me a lot, I know, hey, maybe I should get that gun.

- Detailed post game stats with this information would also be super useful--what guns killed you and how many times.

- And to top it all off, how about having a vendor that always has available the top used gun from matchmaking for each weapon type? So if Auto Rifle Bingo is currently the most used Auto Rifle, that vendor will have that weapon available.

- Also, can we get numerical values for our gun stats, please?

- Also, add deaths back in to the post game carnage report. We're adults. I want to see how many times I died, not that I got a new common t-shirt that I'm just going to convert to glimmer anyway. I also don't care what rewards anyone else got since we can't trade, it is completely useless information, whereas deaths actually matter in a competitive multiplayer experience.

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You can see the name of the gun that killed you. Look in the upper left near the Beta watermark.

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You can see the name of the gun that killed you. Look in the upper left near the Beta watermark.

Okay, cool. Did not know that.

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When I find out things like guns with higher impact rating but a lower attack numerical value can cause more damage than guns with lower impact rating but a higher attack numerical value, I get confused.

Impact is the amount of damage a shot does.

Attack affects the damage reduction for level and armor. Higher attack means there's less damage penalties applied.

Thus, in Crucible impact is what you want. In Iron banner, you need to balance both.

It's not as clear as it could be, but it's not that complicated when you know.

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Impact is the amount of damage a shot does.

Attack affects the damage reduction for level and armor. Higher attack means there's less damage penalties applied.

Thus, in Crucible impact is what you want. In Iron banner, you need to balance both.

It's not as clear as it could be, but it's not that complicated when you know.

That is the exact opposite of what my brain concluded based on the information provided.

So, theoretically, an Attack 10 Auto Rifle and Attack 60 Auto Rifle with identical Impact would do the same damage against an enemy the same level as you?

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That is the exact opposite of what my brain concluded based on the information provided.

This. In fact, I still don't get it, and if Impact is the actual damage rating of my weapon, I want a number for it, not a bar. Bars are fairly meaningless without context.

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if Impact is the actual damage rating of my weapon, I want a number for it, not a bar. Bars are fairly meaningless without context.

My god, a million times this.

If a weapon has higher RoF but lower Impact, I want to know how much higher and lower. I can take it out on a test run but if thats the only way to get a proper measure, why bother listing the stats at all?

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Numbers for everything would be a good idea. I don't have much issue basing it off of the bars but I can't see a downside to making it more clear.

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Dont get me wrong, bars are great for giving a general idea (Sahara vs Cydonia for example), but theyre not as great for giving you an understanding of more subtle differences.

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This. In fact, I still don't get it, and if Impact is the actual damage rating of my weapon, I want a number for it, not a bar. Bars are fairly meaningless without context.

Not entirely. If you assume that in PvP with players of identical level, you'd always want a level playing field where weapons are concerned. In that case the bars are relative indicators of an individual weapon's strengths and weaknesses assuming a level playing field. This is, I'm pretty certain, the reason why there are no numbers shown beside these bars, as the numbers themselves are meaningless in PvP.

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Uh, what? The numbers being asked for would just gauge the length of the bar. They aren't asking for the Attack Rating to be replaced with an Impact number, they just want numbers attached to the bars which quite clearly have a hidden numerical component (hint: it's the length). I don't really have any idea what you were trying to say...

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Uh, what? The numbers being asked for would just gauge the length of the bar. They aren't asking for the Attack Rating to be replaced with an Impact number, they just want numbers attached to the bars which quite clearly have a hidden numerical component (hint: it's the length). I don't really have any idea what you were trying to say...

So you want a number out of 10 for each bar?

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5, 10, 100, 1000, whatever.

I'd like to be able to understand the relationship between Attack and Impact. Where's the actual indication of how much damage these guns are doing? I think I have an idea after Cody's explanation, but it still to my mind is confusing. What he says implies math is going on behind the scenes. I'd like to be able to calculate that math for myself if possible. I can't do that if all I'm offered is one number and a bar. At least it certainly seems like I can't.

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5, 10, 100, 1000, whatever.

I'd like to be able to understand the relationship between Attack and Impact. Where's the actual indication of how much damage these guns are doing? I think I have an idea after Cody's explanation, but it still to my mind is confusing. What he says implies math is going on behind the scenes. I'd like to be able to calculate that math for myself if possible. I can't do that if all I'm offered is one number and a bar. At least it certainly seems like I can't.

Well, the relationship between attack, impact and actual damage dealt is definitely something I'd like to understand more clearly. Maybe I'm idealising or misunderstanding how it works versus how I imagine it ought to work.

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5, 10, 100, 1000, whatever.

I'd like to be able to understand the relationship between Attack and Impact. Where's the actual indication of how much damage these guns are doing? I think I have an idea after Cody's explanation, but it still to my mind is confusing. What he says implies math is going on behind the scenes. I'd like to be able to calculate that math for myself if possible. I can't do that if all I'm offered is one number and a bar. At least it certainly seems like I can't.

Well, the relationship between attack, impact and actual damage dealt is definitely something I'd like to understand more clearly. Maybe I'm idealising or misunderstanding how it works versus how I imagine it ought to work.

Explained math or not, I'd like to be able to tell the bars apart more precisely without going up to my TV and laying a ruler on it.

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Explained math or not, I'd like to be able to tell the bars apart more precisely without going up to my TV and laying a ruler on it.

You can hold R2 to compare, and any differences in bar length between weapons will be red or green. It's pretty easy to see which has longer / shorter bars.

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I'd like to have more precise way to compare stuff, so I can judge compromises without having to go and test them extensively.

E.g. "Oh, this gun 30 more Stability, but 20 less Rate of Fire. Based on my previous experience, 30 points in Stability outweighs about 200 of Rate of Fire, so bye-bye!"

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I'd like to have more precise way to compare stuff, so I can judge compromises without having to go and test them extensively.

Just count some pixels.

;)

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In the Crucible they would do the same damage regardless of the level of the one you were shooting. In the Iron Banner or the main game the higher attack rating the more damage they would do, all things being equal. The other thing is that a low Impact and high fire rate can still do good damage (I'm looking at you, Sahara); Impact is the damage per bullet fired.

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I can't tell if an enemy is above me or directly beside me. When they're close by, the little circle in the center turns red. This is completely unhelpful because I have no idea if they're on the other side of an object or directly beside me or just above me. I'm spinning in circles trying to find the person. Bungie, I know you can do this because my teammates are right there as little icons right beside me. Put a red dot on there so I can deal with the person near me or know that they actually aren't. Thanks Bungie!

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I can't tell if an enemy is above me or directly beside me.

It's a different color (dimmer) if they are above or below you.

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I can't tell if an enemy is above me or directly beside me.

It's a different color (dimmer) if they are above or below you.

This.

I really love the radar. Its enough to keep us engaged with combat, knowing where to run or keep a sharp eye, but doesn't hold our hand or insist on precise tracking (save for vehicles).

I hope it doesn't change any time soon! :)

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I liked Halo's style of radar, but Destiny's is good too. It's not really an issue of better or worse since everybody has the same radar.

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Yep. I love the radar. It is balanced. It makes the game dependent on Skill/Map Knowledge and not from hiding, crouching, camping... :) BUT is still helpful enough to not get overrun by people with great map knowledge.

Here's my sum of the radar:
You know when someone is coming, but you have to use the radar, your own eyes, and map knowledge to approach the situation - then you make your attack. It adds so much depth, and far more depth than "walk around the corner and get blasted by a shotgun camper."

Also, if you didn't know - crouching doesn't make you invisible, it just makes you ping half as often for the other team.

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For real? Thanks. In a way that's actually awesome. I seriously haven't even noticed a difference though, and it's still not helpful to me. It's definitely not apparent to me. I'll be hopping into Crucible soon and I'll be keeping an eye out for that, but I still think actual icons for enemies (like we have for allies) on the radar would be better.

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Maybe a compromise would work? We could have the general indicator wedges like what is currently in place, but as soon as you (or an ally?) make visual contact with your opponent they will appear as icons on the radar?

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I can't tell if an enemy is above me or directly beside me.

It's a different color (dimmer) if they are above or below you.

Too subtle to notice on 360 no matter how big the screen is.

When the center circle fills in, I think of that as meaning directly above/below me, but that's not true.

I think the radar as implemented works great in PVE-- better than using dots for individual enemies, since it gives you some information, but not too much. In PVP it's borderline misleading, and the range is far too short to be useful anywhere outdoors, or even in a large room.

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I've noticed it many times, just never correlated with height difference.

It is solid red when they're in the same plane and dark red with a regular red outline when not.

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I can't tell if an enemy is above me or directly beside me.

It's a different color (dimmer) if they are above or below you.

Clear as mud.

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- Also, add deaths back in to the post game carnage report. We're adults. I want to see how many times I died, not that I got a new common t-shirt that I'm just going to convert to glimmer anyway. I also don't care what rewards anyone else got since we can't trade, it is completely useless information, whereas deaths actually matter in a competitive multiplayer experience.

But we have kills and k/d ratio. Aren't deaths redundant?

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But we have kills and k/d ratio. Aren't deaths redundant?

I'm not that good at math, and no. I would rather see deaths than k/d.

It's like 343 Industries telling us a visual display of the secondary weapon is redundant because you could just press Y twice to find out.

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It's like 343 Industries telling us a visual display of the secondary weapon is redundant because you could just press Y twice to find out.

Oh man...

Shots fired.

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It's like 343 Industries telling us a visual display of the secondary weapon is redundant because you could just press Y twice to find out.

Hehehehe :P

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But we have kills and k/d ratio. Aren't deaths redundant?

I'm not that good at math, and no. I would rather see deaths than k/d.

Well, unless you hop out of matchmaking, you're staying on that screen for a LOT of time. Might as well brush up your math.

Bungie: teaching you stuff since 1991

On serious note, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't even need to take out the reward column to include death count. Just move stuff around a bit

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I feel like the biggest issue I have with Crucible at the moment is I feel like I'm doing something wrong because I'm lacking information.

When I find out things like guns with higher impact rating but a lower attack numerical value can cause more damage than guns with lower impact rating but a higher attack numerical value, I get confused.

In Crucible, when I'm shooting that dude and he's shooting me and I die first, I'm left wondering--did he just out play me, or does he have a gun with a slightly better rate of fire or impact rating or something.

I couldn't find it elsewhere in the thread, but the above only applies to PVE (campaign, story, explore, etc) and not to Crucible matches.

In ordinary Crucible matches, NONE of that matters. Damage is based on weapon type only, just like in Halo. Your gear does not matter.

In Iron Banner matches, some item stats matter, but others don't-- but as far as I understand, the ones that don't are the ones that affect damage-- so again, the above is not relevant. I believe the ones that are relevant are things like reload time, magazine size, etc.

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I couldn't find it elsewhere in the thread, but the above only applies to PVE (campaign, story, explore, etc) and not to Crucible matches.

In ordinary Crucible matches, NONE of that matters. Damage is based on weapon type only, just like in Halo. Your gear does not matter.

In Iron Banner matches, some item stats matter, but others don't-- but as far as I understand, the ones that don't are the ones that affect damage-- so again, the above is not relevant. I believe the ones that are relevant are things like reload time, magazine size, etc.

Damage in the Crucible is still determined by your gun's impact, its fire rate is still determined by its fire rate bar, its magazine size is the same as is listed in its description, etcetera, and you still get the unique bonuses from Uncommon gear. As far as I know, the only stat that is equalized in the Crucible is its Attack number, which does not happen in the Iron Banner.

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Are you sure? I'm 90% certain that's incorrect. Even the difference between a Cydonia-AR2 and a Cydonia-AR3 is noticeable, and theyre the same archetype, except the AR3 has longer bars.

Unless its all in my head? Wish I could set up a custom game to test it all out and be sure.

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Trust me, I have a Sahara and I think I'd notice if it wasn't firing at a ridiculously fast pace, so Impact and Fire Rate can't be equalized; it stands to reason that the others wouldn't either, and that leaves just the Attack Rating to be the thing that gets equalized in the Crucible, along with armor's defense rating.

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In ordinary Crucible matches, NONE of that matters. Damage is based on weapon type only, just like in Halo. Your gear does not matter.

Not true. It takes everything things like rate of fire and impact into account.

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Losing the information war (Destiny)