Legacy Characters in a 10 Year Franchise

by Kitekiller, Tuesday, February 26, 2013, 10:26 (4076 days ago)

Not sure if this has been discussed already, but having the same character over 10 years is an inciting idea to me. It is a conversation that me and a couple of friends have been having, and whether we should have the same character all the way through, or start fresh each time.

The heart of the conversation comes down to game balance and how legacy characters would be handled. In order to really feel like your character is being transferred down is by maintaining some level of skills and/or powers that were gained in the previous game. Importing a name or face doesn't really give a feel of continuation. I could play a Zelda game, name the character Master Chief, and despite retaining the green uniform, assault riffle or sword play skills don't really transfer over to either game.

The only other series that comes to my mind revolving around a single customizable character is Mass Effect. The focus of the Mass Effect series was carrying over your decisions, but since Commander Shepard is the same person in all 3 games, he should have the same skill set. Spoiler if you haven't played ME2, but you die in the opening scene, so they avoided continued progression. While serving as an exciting start, it gave an in game excuse for essentially building a new character. From ME2 to ME3 however, you maintain your skill progression and the game extend the skill trees to allow for further growth.

While I'd love to have the same character over 10 years, game balance is a real concern. Ideally, through the course of a game, you start weak and end strong. Carrying an already strong character into a new game could prove game breaking, but We've come up with a few ways around it.

A higher strength cap, where your previous skill get pushed to a new level can give. I think this is the most obvious answer, but poses the biggest disadvantage to new players.

A new set of skills, allowing parallel character progression. This is well balanced for new and returning characters, but is probably the most challenging to balance skills against each other, and potentially leads to unused or redundant talents.

Scaling enemies can lessen the effects of high leveled characters, but at some point, it becomes discouraging to still be fighting low level enemies with enlarged health pools, you worked hard to level up, and likewise, you should feel powerful when you get there.

I know this is pretty long winded, and based more on speculation than known information about Destiny, but it is the kind of conversation that the anticipation of a new Bungie game has lead to. I already know what I think, what I'm interested in hearing what you think; How should legacy characters be handled in this new 10 year, multi-game franchise?

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Legacy Characters in a 10 Year Franchise

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Tuesday, February 26, 2013, 11:13 (4076 days ago) @ Kitekiller

It's certainly an intersting question. I'm a bit surprised how often Mass Effect is coming up in Destiny conversations, but its a good starting point, so why not? My thought is that it's hard enough to do progression in a single game, like Skyrim, really hard to do it across single player games, like Mass Effect, so it must be really dang hard to do it across presistent world online games.

One place to look is EVE Online. A world with lots of complex "abilities" and stats and so on. It's been running for a long time now and from my few months with the game it seemed that they had something of a handle on things. They seemed to be doing balancing all the time, mostly in large waves. With this update they'd introduce a group of new ships that were mostly balanced to the existing universe. The next they might rebalance an entire class of ships (small fighter like Frigates for example). One thing they did though was plan long term but implement in the shorter term. They would state that they were doing this, and this, and this in order to reposition this group of ships and abilities even if it took four updates over a year and a bit (but not a whole lot) of things going slightly out of balane in the mean time.

One other thing EVE Online did was hold chances for players to give feedback on proposed changes, and they held large scale tests to let users try out the new ships and systems and try to find any flaw that was overlooked. I'm not sure how much that really affected things, (I just played the game :p) but it seemed like a good idea. Maybe Bungie will be doing something similar? Constant balance updates with bigger features and storylines being added over time. Not sure how they'll handle Destiny 2 though as that seems to be a somewhat different issue than "simply" maintaining and updating an ongoing universe. EVE also has pratically no story, where I expect Destiny will have a much more involved one... maybe.

Anyway, it'll be something to watch. :)

Legacy Characters in a 10 Year Franchise

by Kitekiller, Tuesday, February 26, 2013, 13:25 (4076 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I thought of EVE as well, but maybe for a different reason. I've never played EVE, but in one of the videos or talks, they (being bungie) talked about having a story told by the players, not the game and EVE is really the only game i could think about (besides maybe tabletop games) that really do that. All the stories I've heard about EVE focus on the antics of the players, not set piece story moments. I think if Destiny could achieve even a small level of that kind of player freedom (choice?) it would be extremely impressive.

I have no doubt Bungie will release a balanced game, especially if they hold a good sized beta.

*OT* The player story vs the game story

by Smee, Tuesday, February 26, 2013, 16:48 (4076 days ago) @ Kitekiller

I thought of EVE as well, but maybe for a different reason. I've never played EVE, but in one of the videos or talks, they (being bungie) talked about having a story told by the players, not the game and EVE is really the only game i could think about (besides maybe tabletop games) that really do that. All the stories I've heard about EVE focus on the antics of the players, not set piece story moments. I think if Destiny could achieve even a small level of that kind of player freedom (choice?) it would be extremely impressive.

Yeah, this is what I am wondering about too. I like single player story campaigns (Halo, Marathon, Half Life etc), but I don't expect that guided exploration method of story telling to work well in an shared world. To me the two extremes in this are World of Warcraft and SWTOR - WoW makes me feel like my character is mostly the agent of the main character. I don't feel like the story is really about me. Most of the epic moments I have had in wow has been in very large groups, or focusing around an NPC as the lead. SWTOR on the other hand made me feel emotionally tied to the character story, even though it was so heavily on rails. I felt my choices were meaningful, and the character dialog was well done. However in the end, it lacked dynamic moments where players interact at a level deeper then a set script, when it came to story development.

I wonder what path destiny will take? I am kinda hoping that quests/tasks will be voiced, rather then what amounts to a twitter feed of instructions. Then again, halo is full of epic cutscenes, so I reckon destiny will go for that too. The big question is if the character will be voiced, if there is dialog choices and if we can choose our paths a little more then: go kill this, fetch these.

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Legacy Characters in a 10 Year Franchise

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Tuesday, February 26, 2013, 13:46 (4076 days ago) @ Ragashingo

There's a difference between EVE and most other games when it comes to skills/abilities though.

In something like Mass Effect, you can max out your character in fairly short order, and be at a point where you have all the skills you're going to be able to have in that game. Then when the next game comes out, we run into the issue Kitekiller was talking about - do we reset all skills and start a new series of progressive upgrades (ME2), or keep the abilities the character already had (ME3)?

EVE is different. You are likely never going to get to a point where you have a maxed out character - most estimates for how long it would take to train all skills in that game are 25 years or more. And those are estimates made quite a while ago, before a bunch of new skills were introduced. So EVE expansions with new ships, enemies, modules, and sometimes even skills come out every few months, but this issue never comes up because your character simply continues progressing.

Might Destiny follow this model? Perhaps, but I think the EVE model is off-putting to a lot of people - it can take days, weeks, and in some cases months to upgrade a SINGLE aspect of your character - and in that time you are not progressing toward any other skills.

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Legacy Characters in a 10 Year Franchise

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Tuesday, February 26, 2013, 15:08 (4076 days ago) @ stabbim

Agreed on the off putting part. The reason I broke free from EVE is that after a few months it kinda turned into a time sink. I'd have to mine for dozens of hours to afford a ship, research for a month to be able to fly the ship, and the ship would go poof in under 5 minutes putting me back to mining. I couldn't justify sitting there targeting the next asteroid for my mining lasers when I could be having actual fun in one of many other games or activities.

Bungie makes it sound like they won't be going in that direction, with the quote about we know people are tired and don't have a ton of free time, and whatnot.

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Legacy Characters in a 10 Year Franchise

by Chewbaccawakka @, The Great Green Pacific Northwest!, Tuesday, February 26, 2013, 17:49 (4076 days ago) @ Ragashingo

The reason I broke free from EVE is that after a few months it kinda turned into a time sink. I'd have to mine for dozens of hours to afford a ship, research for a month to be able to fly the ship, and the ship would go poof in under 5 minutes putting me back to mining. I couldn't justify sitting there targeting the next asteroid for my mining lasers when I could be having actual fun in one of many other games or activities.


Heh, I had a similar experience but with a dramatic difference. Getting a new ship was well and good, but what I enjoyed the most was flying out to some secluded asteroid belt and mining away! Nothing better than taking a load of ore back to the station, refine it, and then using it to manufacture supplies and munitions to sell on the market to other players.

In my (admittedly brief) time with EVE I think my ship was destroyed once by another player. Predominately I just flew my freighters around, no guns, just a crap ton of mining lasers blasting away. I really enjoyed it.

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Legacy Characters in a 10 Year Franchise

by Harmanimus @, Tuesday, February 26, 2013, 11:37 (4076 days ago) @ Kitekiller


How should legacy characters be handled in this new 10 year, multi-game franchise?

It is an interesting discussion. My curiosity of it stems from whether or not it will feel like a multi-game franchise or not. Given the structure put forth of Mainline games broken up by large DLC content with potential opportunity for smaller DLC in the interim, will we ever see progression really stop? Each game might have its own isolated expansion content (allowing you to continue to play through the main story bulk of earlier games) to allow it to be played even after direct support has ended.

I think the mass effect comparison is pretty apt for ways to deal with it, but another that comes to mind is the pen-and-paper Warhammer 40k Roleplaying system. The first 3 corebooks in that actually step up the power level (as is appropriate to the universe) of characters you create.

Assuming that the game has a large amount of gameplay impacting customization, and that it functions on a linear level system allowing legacy characters across all games (say 50 levels per game, total with expansion content) then perhaps newly made characters for each game would start at 50, 100, and 150 respectively. That allows for an even footing for all characters, progression-wise, with the obvious opportunity for carry-over gear for legacy characters. This could also be handled with a 50 from Destiny being equal to a 1 from Destiny 2.

I will admit, this suggested option would come off very strange if the core gameplay is not based around player ability but more on character ability, depending on how transparent the combat and stats are. Though I don't expect that to be the case. Additionally, how much customization comes to new characters after each game if it fits modern skill-tree-style character building could be abysmally daunting come Destiny 4 if they choose the route of full customization of new characters.

I am very interested in seeing how they choose to handle this, especially given their underscoring of each player being their own, unique character. Carryover seems like it would be important. But escalation for the sake of escalation has a high probability of making things unenjoyably complex. Which is obviously not the Bungie way. Well, except when we talk about the depth of their stories.

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Legacy Characters in a 10 Year Franchise

by RC ⌂, UK, Tuesday, February 26, 2013, 12:50 (4076 days ago) @ Kitekiller

They talked a lot about customisation, and were also keen to mention the 'competitive multiplayer' aspect that is demanded of modern shooters. So I don't know if there is going to be a whole lot of 'powering up' your character over the course of the game - as that would obviously interfere greatly with the 'competitive' multiplayer.

Legacy Characters in a 10 Year Franchise

by Smee, Tuesday, February 26, 2013, 13:01 (4076 days ago) @ RC

Maybe campaign advancement will be through gear and ability trees, rather then levels and base stats (though screenshots suggest there are already base stats). I am hoping it won't follow the seemingly now standard path of levelling to max in the first 2 weeks, then being capped at a ceiling till the next expansion.

Maybe campaign progression will be decoupled from competitive multiplayer (which might be more load out based?)

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If it's like The Genre That Shall Not Be Named

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Tuesday, February 26, 2013, 13:07 (4076 days ago) @ Smee

Multiplayer will level out the character's levels so everyone is even in Competitive Multiplayer.

That also works!

by Smee, Tuesday, February 26, 2013, 16:32 (4076 days ago) @ Xenos

- No text -

Legacy Characters in a 10 Year Franchise

by mikefishr, Bloomington, IN, Tuesday, February 26, 2013, 20:59 (4076 days ago) @ RC

Maybe competitive multiplayer is really geared towards squads working together against other squads. Doing this would allow for the player to customize their character to their specific playstyle, and allow them to work well in a group with friends (which is another big emphasis for Bungie). I don't see leveling the playing field being popular with most people, unless it's something like older Halo multiplayer (i.e. no loadouts). If people are customizing their character to such a deep level, it would be safe to assume that they would want to play in a similar fashion (i.e. stealth, tank, support, etc.) to how they customized their character.

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Legacy Characters in a 10 Year Franchise

by Stephen Laughlin ⌂ @, Long Beach, CA, Tuesday, February 26, 2013, 21:12 (4076 days ago) @ mikefishr

I'm curious how they're going to approach cooperative and competitive multiplayer. Will there be privately instanced servers for competitive battles? Teamplay or free for all? Is the main landscape going to be seamless and cooperative? Will players be able to attack each other in the open?

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Legacy Characters in a 10 Year Franchise

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Tuesday, February 26, 2013, 21:17 (4076 days ago) @ Stephen Laughlin

Will players be able to attack each other in the open?

From the IGN article:

Naturally, of course, there will also be a fully featured competitive multiplayer mode, though neither Jones nor anyone else from Bungie was willing to offer even a hint about any details just yet. Well, other than the fact that you won’t be forced to engage in player-vs.-player combat unless you explicitly desire to.

So I think that would rule out attacking each other in the open.

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Legacy Characters in a 10 Year Franchise

by Stephen Laughlin ⌂ @, Long Beach, CA, Tuesday, February 26, 2013, 23:58 (4076 days ago) @ Xenos

Naturally, of course, there will also be a fully featured competitive multiplayer mode, though neither Jones nor anyone else from Bungie was willing to offer even a hint about any details just yet. Well, other than the fact that you won’t be forced to engage in player-vs.-player combat unless you explicitly desire to.


So I think that would rule out attacking each other in the open.

Unless it's a simple option to either enable or disable PvP.

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I really hope not

by kidtsunami @, Atlanta, GA, Wednesday, February 27, 2013, 01:26 (4076 days ago) @ Kitekiller

I find the basic notion of "levelling" very frustrating.

I don't want to have my character hit for more damage because they got to some level by grinding through levels or got a sweet loot drop.

I want my character to hit for more damage because I got better at targeting or if it's because of a sweet loot drop I want there to be downsides to the loot such as slower movement/reloading.

If it all worked that way, you could keep all your customization through each game without having to worry about it. And yeah it's tough to balance things, that's a part of good game design.

At its best, you don't play through each halo game picking up progressively more powerful guns and never touching others. You move through the game picking up weapons based off the given situation and what strengths the weapons have in that context.

Now if Destiny ends up having Levelling, I will deal with the frustration of being slightly off-level from my friends and the hollow satisfaction of doing more damage with the same character to the same enemy because I've simply been playing longer. I just hope it doesn't go that route.

And I guess that's mostly what we should be doing here... hoping.

I really hope not

by Kitekiller, Wednesday, February 27, 2013, 09:23 (4075 days ago) @ kidtsunami

I hear where you're coming from, even if I don't necessirialy agree. I greatly appreciated Bungie's view on an even footing for all players in the halo series, but this is a new franchise with new mechanics. Even if nothing has been confirmed by Bungie, role-playing mechanics have never been more pervasive, and I don't think Activision would have taken the deal without some form of investment to keep players coming back. I know that's a bit of a depressing way of looking at it, but that's the reality of it. Bungie wont push out a game without game mechanics they believe in, but something made Activision bite, and I don't think it was Bungie's name alone.

All that being said, nothing about leveling has been confirmed, and it may work out the way you purposed. Even better, the question still stands. If you end the first game with your favorite gear and weapons, would you want to bring that gear into a fresh game? You yourself expressed worry about being a better character because of time invested, so would it be balanced to start off with the gear you're experienced with?

If everyone could bring their gear along to the next game, would that limit what Bungie can do, having to dedicate memory to old gear, limiting what they can do with new gear for balancing reasons? Is the aspect of all new gear enough to give up a sense of continuation and growth in the universe?

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