Avatar

The Numbers

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, February 27, 2013, 14:01 (4069 days ago)

There must be something I am not seeing.

First, the decision to require an internet connection cuts out literally 75% of the people who own current gen consoles. I am not kidding, because as of last year, I believe it was the NPD that said 75% of current gen game consoles are never taken online. That's a huge chunk of potential players that are out of the picture. Destiny has been in development for how long? I have no doubt it's going to be 100+ million. How are enough people going to buy it?!

Second, since they've already decided to go with the always connected model, not making a PC version seems insane. You have China and South Korea, both of which are huge markets for MMO or 'Shared World' games as Bungie wants to call it. Several MMOFPS games are popular in Korea. Software piracy is pretty much non existent for these types of games due to the connection requirement, and thus since they are popular, they are pretty lucrative. Console gaming is not popular in Korea, and I believe consoles can;t even be sold in China, so keeping the game console only seems maddening unless for some reason they don't think they can get this market.

Lastly, if you look at the numbers, console revenue has been declining steadily, while PC revenue has been rising, actually eclipsing and passing console revenue. So, the PC is where the money's at, and the console is on it's way out. Why stay excusively on this sinking ship?

If I had to guess, the only thing I can come up with is that due to the way XBL and PSN servers work, that the cost of support (which is any MMO's biggest expense) could possibly be quite low compared to that of a PC release, sustainable by the retail price and DLC packs.

The Numbers

by kapowaz, Wednesday, February 27, 2013, 14:14 (4069 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Lastly, if you look at the numbers, console revenue has been declining steadily, while PC revenue has been rising, actually eclipsing and passing console revenue. So, the PC is where the money's at, and the console is on it's way out. Why stay excusively on this sinking ship?

We're at the end of a console generation AND in the middle of a global economic downturn; I wouldn't necessarily interpret this as meaning they're staying with a ‘sinking ship’.

As for the other points you've raised; I've wondered about that myself too, but it seems that at least Microsoft is going down an always-online route for their new hardware platform. If that turns out to be true then maybe people will just have to get used to that requirement? Certainly the trend is for fewer and fewer people to not be connected, so eventually you have to extrapolate a point where not being online is as unlikely as not having running water or electricity. We're a way off that right now, but when you're building a game universe with a 10 year plan, you tend to look a bit further ahead than last year's numbers.

Avatar

The Numbers

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Wednesday, February 27, 2013, 14:33 (4069 days ago) @ Cody Miller
edited by Xenos, Wednesday, February 27, 2013, 14:41

You've actually got it backwards, doing a search on Google, it's 75%-85% of consoles ARE connected to the Internet. Here's an example article:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/the-all-digital-console-is-a-myth-despite-steam-box-and-discless...

Also, they have done research I am sure. Pure speculation, but I bet that the majority of people that don't connect their consoles to the Internet do not buy that many games for it, especially games like Halo, CoD, or Destiny.

Edit: I believe I found the statistic you were thinking of, only ~30% of households own a console connected to the Internet but that is out of all households, not just households with consoles.

Here's another article that talks about it:
http://www.ecommercetimes.com/story/75140.html

Specifically:

Today, approximately 40 percent of all U.S. broadband households own at least one Internet-connected device, with game consoles accounting for 75 percent of these products.

Avatar

The Numbers

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, February 27, 2013, 14:46 (4069 days ago) @ Xenos

You've actually got it backwards, doing a search on Google, it's 75%-85% of consoles ARE connected to the Internet. Here's an example article:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/the-all-digital-console-is-a-myth-despite-steam-box-and-discless...

Also, they have done research I am sure. Pure speculation, but I bet that the majority of people that don't connect their consoles to the Internet do not buy that many games for it, especially games like Halo, CoD, or Destiny.

Edit: I believe I found the statistic you were thinking of, only ~30% of households own a console connected to the Internet but that is out of all households, not just households with consoles.

Ahhh yes, you're right. I was mistaken in my recollection!

The Numbers

by electricpirate @, Wednesday, February 27, 2013, 18:08 (4069 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I agree with your overall point: leaving money on the table with the PC would be foolish. Partly, because I want that! Given that you seem to hate the F2P model, aka "the dominant FPS model in Asia", I'm not sure why you'd advocate for Bungie to make a push for the asian market.

EDIT: I saw that you corrected your mistake regarding the numbers above, my bad.

Avatar

Armchair Speculation Pt 1

by narcogen ⌂ @, Andover, Massachusetts, Wednesday, February 27, 2013, 21:21 (4069 days ago) @ Cody Miller

There must be something I am not seeing.

First, the decision to require an internet connection cuts out literally 75% of the people who own current gen consoles. I am not kidding, because as of last year, I believe it was the NPD that said 75% of current gen game consoles are never taken online. That's a huge chunk of potential players that are out of the picture. Destiny has been in development for how long? I have no doubt it's going to be 100+ million. How are enough people going to buy it?!

Citation? The nearest figure I see is the ratio between XBL subscribers and total 360 sales, which is about 50/50.

http://www.statisticbrain.com/xbox-statistics/

For Xbox 360, it's likely the requirement won't mean much more for users than "logged into XBL"-- similar to what's required for owners of XBLA titles linked to a certain account, which is just about anyone who's had to replace an out of warranty 360 and redownload their purchases.

My internet is crap, but my 360 still logs into XBL at startup and usually manages to stay connected. If Destiny's servers are smart, they'll let me play solo and not force anyone into my laggy game, and it was recently confirmed that you can play solo.

So the question is how much overlap is there between the attach rate for a Bungie shooter on the 360, and the conversion rate or XBL on the 360. Then again, from Bungie's perspective, the online populations of both the 360 and the PS3 combined might very well equal their usual shooter population.

In fact, not being on the PlayStation in the last 2 generations probably had a much larger effect on the potential player base for a Bungie game than an online requirement across 4-5 platforms (Xbox 360, Durango, PS3, PS4, PC) will have on Destiny. And if Bungie is being smart, their infrastructure will have been built to support all those platforms from the start, plus mobile interaction. Parsons has practically said as much already.

Second, since they've already decided to go with the always connected model, not making a PC version seems insane.

They probably will. I'd venture to guess that the issues involved in making a title cross-platform between the 360 and the PS3 and/or the Xbox 720 and the PS4 dwarf those involved in making a PC port from any of the above. (Although PS4-PC is obviously going to be easier than it was with PS3.)

The problem is that MS investment in the Xbox essentially leaves PC gaming without a stakeholder. Bungie's history with MS meant they got first dibs, but only for platforms that are officially announced: so that means Xbox 360, confirmed at the first reveal. As a third party, MS is not going to let Bungie steal their thunder by confirming the Durango at the Destiny reveal.

Bungie being new to Sony's ecosystem, and Sony announcing the PS4 first, meant they got the first next-gen announcement, along with the "exclusive content" thing tacked on to sweeten the deal.

MS hasn't announced the next Xbox yet, and they're the closest thing that PC gaming has to a stakeholder. So there's no way that Bungie is going to confirm a PC release before they confirm a Durango release, especially since there's probably as much or more overlap there than anywhere else.

You have China and South Korea, both of which are huge markets for MMO or 'Shared World' games as Bungie wants to call it. Several MMOFPS games are popular in Korea. Software piracy is pretty much non existent for these types of games due to the connection requirement, and thus since they are popular, they are pretty lucrative. Console gaming is not popular in Korea, and I believe consoles can;t even be sold in China, so keeping the game console only seems maddening unless for some reason they don't think they can get this market.

I doubt China or Korea have been significant markets for Bungie in the past, just as Japan has not. While it would certainly be wise to target those markets, it would be risky to make significant investments based on expectations in those markets. Given Bungie's narrow focus on action, I'd guess that their take on the MMOFPS will lack may of the elements that appeal to gamers in those markets.

That said, I think there will be a PC version. It's just a very, very open question how well that version will do in those three markets. It's quite likely they will have content issues there, as WoW has had in China for quite some time.

Avatar

Armchair Speculation Pt 2

by narcogen ⌂ @, Andover, Massachusetts, Wednesday, February 27, 2013, 21:22 (4069 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Lastly, if you look at the numbers, console revenue has been declining steadily, while PC revenue has been rising, actually eclipsing and passing console revenue. So, the PC is where the money's at, and the console is on it's way out. Why stay excusively on this sinking ship?

This is ludicrous even for you. This is almost certainly due to the stage we're at in the console cycle. The existing generations have hit the point of diminishing returns-- more work on a AAA title for 360/PS3 now is not going to deliver an improvement in graphics or features over games released 1-2 years ago because all the possible optimization has already been done. Meanwhile, the PS4 is already announced and the next Xbox will be shortly. The current platforms are lame ducks-- they have a nice installed base, but everyone knows the party is coming to an end soon. The new platforms will have excitement, but it will take them years to build up a population of gamers. This is why Bungie is doing what they are doing-- releasing on both the new and old platforms. Since they're not owned by a platform holder, there is no reason to be an exclusive on a particular platform or generation, so it makes sense to be everywhere.

The PC is certainly not where the money is at. That's loony. This is a transition period to the next generation. We've seen it before, and the only doomsayers calling this "the end of console gaming" are the same ones who've been saying it since E.T. ended up in a landfill.

I could certainly see it happening that the PC version of Destiny might, if it were launched simultaneously, outsell one or both next-gen console versions, at least temporarily, just due to installed base, but frankly I'd be willing to bet heavily that the last-gen versions would outsell both, possibly combined.

The only places doomsaying about no PC versions are PC gaming evangelists.

What would the entire gaming and tech press be saying if Bungie had gone PC-only, eschewing both current and next-gen consoles? It'd be suicide, and rightly labeled as such. The only PC-first, PC-only franchise that worldwide does the kind of business that could justify that is WoW itself, and that's because of the subscription model. The market so far does not seem to really have room for a second player in that space, hence the F2P + microtransactions model than every so-called "WoW killer" is now employing.

If I had to guess, the only thing I can come up with is that due to the way XBL and PSN servers work, that the cost of support (which is any MMO's biggest expense) could possibly be quite low compared to that of a PC release, sustainable by the retail price and DLC packs.

I don't expect those costs to be anywhere near what an MMO's is. An MMO needs to track the location of all players in a shard at all times. I do not expect Destiny to do that. Their description of "shared world" reads a lot more like seamless drop-in drop-out coop, which probably means an invisible playlist that activates when you enter a level or area and puts a few players into each others' games once in awhile so that the world feels less empty than if you were playing solo. It's not tracking hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of players and their inventories plus mobs over a huge continuous territory. I think they're trying to get as close as possible to the feel of that without actually having to wrangle all the bits.

It's entirely likely that being independent, the structure of the new deal gives Bungie enough of the take to cover their own infrastructure costs and then some, compared to the MS days where there was no "Bungie take" since they were a subsidiary, or the last two Halo titles, where they were subcontractors. It seems likely to me that if Bungie is invested in the "shared world shooter" model from the top down (which I believe it is) they are willing to take the hit for any infrastructure over and above what XBL or PSN provide if it enables their vision for the game. It's reasonable to assume that as a publisher, not an owner, Activision's end of the Destiny contract gives them less of a share than MS got from Halo as an owner. Bungie may be able to make the same amount of revenue per copy after the extra expenses as they did with Halo.

Pure speculation, of course.

Armchair Speculation Pt 2

by electricpirate @, Thursday, February 28, 2013, 07:02 (4068 days ago) @ narcogen

Lastly, if you look at the numbers, console revenue has been declining steadily, while PC revenue has been rising, actually eclipsing and passing console revenue. So, the PC is where the money's at, and the console is on it's way out. Why stay excusively on this sinking ship?


This is ludicrous even for you. This is almost certainly due to the stage we're at in the console cycle. The existing generations have hit the point of diminishing returns-- more work on a AAA title for 360/PS3 now is not going to deliver an improvement in graphics or features over games released 1-2 years ago because all the possible optimization has already been done. Meanwhile, the PS4 is already announced and the next Xbox will be shortly. The current platforms are lame ducks-- they have a nice installed base, but everyone knows the party is coming to an end soon. The new platforms will have excitement, but it will take them years to build up a population of gamers. This is why Bungie is doing what they are doing-- releasing on both the new and old platforms. Since they're not owned by a platform holder, there is no reason to be an exclusive on a particular platform or generation, so it makes sense to be everywhere.
The PC is certainly not where the money is at. That's loony. This is a transition period to the next generation. We've seen it before, and the only doomsayers calling this "the end of console gaming" are the same ones who've been saying it since E.T. ended up in a landfill.

I could certainly see it happening that the PC version of Destiny might, if it were launched simultaneously, outsell one or both next-gen console versions, at least temporarily, just due to installed base, but frankly I'd be willing to bet heavily that the last-gen versions would outsell both, possibly combined.

Just a few points. PCs growth as a gaming platform comes from experimentation in games, business models, and distribution systems. Thee fact that you can outpace the current gen consoles with a 600 dollar PC at this point is a bonus, but the games driving PC gaming growth are decidedly low spec. PCs are growing because of Minecraft, LoL, Dota2, Team Fortress 2, and the massive back catalog that can be had for cheap.

For AAA releases like destiny though, the PC market is still a fraction of the console market. I'm trying to find a link, but Far Cry 3 had something like 16% of it's sales on PC, so while the market is growing, it's still small.

In the future, i'd expect the excitement over next gen consoles to slow the PC's rise, not stop it. The correct position for Bungie is to be releasing on PC IMO, you want that market to have your game as it is a platform on the rise.

The only places doomsaying about no PC versions are PC gaming evangelists.

This is dead on. That Rock Paper Shotgun clickbait was awful.

I don't expect those costs to be anywhere near what an MMO's is. An MMO needs to track the location of all players in a shard at all times. I do not expect Destiny to do that. Their description of "shared world" reads a lot more like seamless drop-in drop-out coop, which probably means an invisible playlist that activates when you enter a level or area and puts a few players into each others' games once in awhile so that the world feels less empty than if you were playing solo. It's not tracking hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of players and their inventories plus mobs over a huge continuous territory. I think they're trying to get as close as possible to the feel of that without actually having to wrangle all the bits.

It's entirely likely that being independent, the structure of the new deal gives Bungie enough of the take to cover their own infrastructure costs and then some, compared to the MS days where there was no "Bungie take" since they were a subsidiary, or the last two Halo titles, where they were subcontractors. It seems likely to me that if Bungie is invested in the "shared world shooter" model from the top down (which I believe it is) they are willing to take the hit for any infrastructure over and above what XBL or PSN provide if it enables their vision for the game. It's reasonable to assume that as a publisher, not an owner, Activision's end of the Destiny contract gives them less of a share than MS got from Halo as an owner. Bungie may be able to make the same amount of revenue per copy after the extra expenses as they did with Halo.

Yea, I've kind of been figuring that the "Seamless co-op" model was in large part to reduce bandwidth and server costs, while having the benefit of removing some of the awfulness of large scale MMO clusterfucks.

Avatar

Armchair Speculation Pt 2

by narcogen ⌂ @, Andover, Massachusetts, Thursday, February 28, 2013, 22:45 (4067 days ago) @ electricpirate

Just a few points. PCs growth as a gaming platform comes from experimentation in games, business models, and distribution systems. Thee fact that you can outpace the current gen consoles with a 600 dollar PC at this point is a bonus, but the games driving PC gaming growth are decidedly low spec. PCs are growing because of Minecraft, LoL, Dota2, Team Fortress 2, and the massive back catalog that can be had for cheap.

I don't think that can be substantiated.

These sorts of titles certainly do make up a lot of the PC sales that do exist. (Although Minecraft also did really, really well on XBLA as well.) Myself, I started playing on XBLA and moved over to my Mac so I could access mods.

But it's a different thing to say that indies and experimental games and models are driving PC sales than to say they are driving PC growth as a platform.

For AAA releases like destiny though, the PC market is still a fraction of the console market. I'm trying to find a link, but Far Cry 3 had something like 16% of it's sales on PC, so while the market is growing, it's still small.

It's not really growing, though. It's gaining in comparison to the console markets, which are slowing at the end of a cycle. As a platform, Windows (which is really what you mean when you say PC gaming) is not really growing as a platform for gaming. It is being beat out by consoles and now, in past few years, mobile devices and tablets.

What I expect to see in the coming years is not significant growth on the PC side of the gaming industry, but rather consolidation under ecosystems like Steam and Origin. Those platforms will grow, but as other kinds of devices take up residence in niches that before would have had PCs in them, and expand to fill other niches that PCs never could, we may in the future look back at some point around this time and realize that this was the peak for traditional PCs-- not just for gaming, but for a whole range of applications. These kinds of shifts-- from general purpose to specific purpose and back again-- tend to be cyclical, but I think we're still at the beginning of a special purpose cycle, not heading back the other way yet.


In the future, i'd expect the excitement over next gen consoles to slow the PC's rise, not stop it. The correct position for Bungie is to be releasing on PC IMO, you want that market to have your game as it is a platform on the rise.

I pretty much expect it to be reversed entirely, at least in terms of market share. That doesn't mean that PC games won't have an absolute increase in titles sold, year over year, or that platforms like Steam and Origin won't continue to increase their market share, but I think by the time that the current consoles are so old that no more new releases are coming out, the new consoles will have enough installed base to take up the slack. Perhaps 2-3 years.

The only places doomsaying about no PC versions are PC gaming evangelists.


This is dead on. That Rock Paper Shotgun clickbait was awful.

Which is a shame, because when they write about games that just happen to be on the PC (as well as on other platforms) they're a cut above. There's a kind of bunker mentality groupthink in there that reminds me a lot of what it was like to be a Mac user in the darkness of Apple's Gil Amelio days.

Yea, I've kind of been figuring that the "Seamless co-op" model was in large part to reduce bandwidth and server costs, while having the benefit of removing some of the awfulness of large scale MMO clusterfucks.

I think that's only part of it. I don't really think Bungie is that bottom-line motivated, although they are not immune to commercial considerations. It'd be silly to think so.

I think what they're looking at is accessibility. Matchmaking is much more accessible than a server list, but a system that does matchmaking behind the scenes is even more so. I think Bungie is very aware of how the multiplayer Halo community is perceived, and how much of those interactions are colored by the nature of the experience. I think Bungie wants to make a cooperative experience just as accessible, and just as seminal, as the solo and vs multiplayer experiences are.

Armchair Speculation Pt 2

by electricpirate @, Friday, March 01, 2013, 11:54 (4067 days ago) @ narcogen

I don't think that can be substantiated.

These sorts of titles certainly do make up a lot of the PC sales that do exist. (Although Minecraft also did really, really well on XBLA as well.) Myself, I started playing on XBLA and moved over to my Mac so I could access mods.

But it's a different thing to say that indies and experimental games and models are driving PC sales than to say they are driving PC growth as a platform.

I think it can be easily substantiated, look at the top 5 PC games being played online, 3 out of the top 5 came from independant/smaller developers. 4 out of the top 10 are Free to play, and most of them aren't on consoles. I overfocussed on Indy/Experimental games there, I should have put in, Indy/ experimental business models.
(link)

It's not really growing, though. It's gaining in comparison to the console markets, which are slowing at the end of a cycle. As a platform, Windows (which is really what you mean when you say PC gaming) is not really growing as a platform for gaming. It is being beat out by consoles and now, in past few years, mobile devices and tablets.

I'd disagree with that, Here's a chart of revenue. http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/97047-thank-you-farmville-pc-gaming-will-soon-overtake-consoles

PC gaming has grown ~30 percent in the last 6 years, while consoles have basically been stagnant. That is Tremendous growth, and it's growth that EA has also pointed out.

Given that the installed userbase of windows is so fricken huge, I don't think looking at windows platform growth is instructive, focusing on actual revenues is more important.

Those platforms will grow, but as other kinds of devices take up residence in niches that before would have had PCs in them, and expand to fill other niches that PCs never could, we may in the future look back at some point around this time and realize that this was the peak for traditional PCs-- not just for gaming, but for a whole range of applications. These kinds of shifts-- from general purpose to specific purpose and back again-- tend to be cyclical, but I think we're still at the beginning of a special purpose cycle, not heading back the other way yet.

I actually think you are right in this, the number of PCs in the wild is going to go down, and tablet/smartphones/smart Tvs etc will rise.

As it applies to gaming, I'm not sure that this fact necessarily matters. Looking again at the most popular online PC games, those aren't casual games, these are very niche games, that cater to a really big Niche. I mean, League of legends alone has nearly as many active players as Xbox Live, and LoL is about as hardcore as can be (Link). As long as the gamers playing on PC are there (and they seem to be growing, or at least spending more) the trajectory of windows as a platform is less important.

I pretty much expect it to be reversed entirely, at least in terms of market share. That doesn't mean that PC games won't have an absolute increase in titles sold, year over year, or that platforms like Steam and Origin won't continue to increase their market share, but I think by the time that the current consoles are so old that no more new releases are coming out, the new consoles will have enough installed base to take up the slack. Perhaps 2-3 years.

Let's come back in 2-3 years. I'll say in 2-3 years, PC gaming revenue will be on par with console revenue. Deal?

I think that's only part of it. I don't really think Bungie is that bottom-line motivated, although they are not immune to commercial considerations. It'd be silly to think so.

I think what they're looking at is accessibility. Matchmaking is much more accessible than a server list, but a system that does matchmaking behind the scenes is even more so. I think Bungie is very aware of how the multiplayer Halo community is perceived, and how much of those interactions are colored by the nature of the experience. I think Bungie wants to make a cooperative experience just as accessible, and just as seminal, as the solo and vs multiplayer experiences are.

True, I don't think I phrased that well. Here's what I mean, You could achieve what Bungie is attempting with a well designed standard client-server system, and just showing players those that fit the matchmaking criteria. The Hocus pocus of constant connection swapping seamlessly *seems* like it's there to keep costs down. The matchmaking, and the idea of the game nudging us into these great multiplayer moments is what's exciting though. I Lumped in implementation tech with game design there. Shame on me ;).

Blah, I have more to say, but I'm running up against the character limit. Who set the DB up with a fixed VARCHAR field? ;)

Avatar

Armchair Speculation Pt 2

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, February 28, 2013, 14:33 (4068 days ago) @ narcogen

This is ludicrous even for you. This is almost certainly due to the stage we're at in the console cycle.

Nope. 100% wrong.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/181343/Not_even_November_can_save_US_game_retail_now.php

Armchair Speculation Pt 2

by kapowaz, Thursday, February 28, 2013, 20:21 (4068 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Nope. 100% wrong.

More like not 100% correct.

Three things:

* Post-2009 is about the midpoint of the current generation of console hardware
* The global economic downturn was well in effect by this point (whereas in 2008 it had affected some, but by no means all)
* The iPhone was starting to gain traction, starting the current trend of reduced expectation of cost for games.

You can't look at where we are now and say one thing alone caused this; it's a product of many causes.

Avatar

Armchair Speculation Pt 2

by narcogen ⌂ @, Andover, Massachusetts, Thursday, February 28, 2013, 23:09 (4067 days ago) @ kapowaz

Nope. 100% wrong.


More like not 100% correct.

Three things:

* Post-2009 is about the midpoint of the current generation of console hardware
* The global economic downturn was well in effect by this point (whereas in 2008 it had affected some, but by no means all)
* The iPhone was starting to gain traction, starting the current trend of reduced expectation of cost for games.

You can't look at where we are now and say one thing alone caused this; it's a product of many causes.

I agree more or less completely.

What I'm saying is that it's probably not one of the causes that "PC gaming is so awesome".

All of the above-mentioned are much, much better candidates. There are probably other potential causes as well.

Avatar

Armchair Speculation Pt 2

by narcogen ⌂ @, Andover, Massachusetts, Thursday, February 28, 2013, 23:05 (4067 days ago) @ Cody Miller

This is ludicrous even for you. This is almost certainly due to the stage we're at in the console cycle.


Nope. 100% wrong.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/181343/Not_even_November_can_save_US_game_retail_now.php

Please point to a single sentence in that article that disputes my thesis. I can't find one, because there isn't one there.

If you think there is, I think you're probably misinterpreting this:

In previous generations, I believe there have been contractions in the lull before and during the launch of a sequence of new platforms. However, I don't believe that the industry has grown during a generation and then returned to its starting size at the end of that generation - until now.

It's long past the time when the industry should be asking if retail will ever rebound. It won't.

He's not denying here that there is a cycle. What he's saying is that the last cycle hasn't dropped as low as the start of the previous one before the next one starts before, but that is happening now. Also, he's talking about bricks and mortar retail, not the entire market, which he points out here:

Perhaps that is what it will finally take to encourage publishers and other outlets to begin publishing digital sales figures at least in the very modest detail we get for retail. Even if digital distribution revenue isn't keeping pace with the decline at retail, it would help soften the image of a physical market in freefall.

So the contraction in the total market may be smaller than it looks from just the retail market figures. He's not even sure that digital sales don't completely make up for the shortfall, which would mean that as far as developers and platform holders are concerned, there is no contraction-- there is only a shift from retail to digital. He can't be sure which is the case because nobody reports those figures in a way comparable to the NPD's retail figures, so there's no reliable metric for it.

(The fact that a global economic crisis intervened between the start of the last generation and this one just might be a factor, but if you think the real cause is how awesome Windows 8 is going to be for gaming, be my guest.)

In other words, it can simultaneously be true that:

A) The coming console generation might not ever reach the highest total installed base for all platforms as the previous generation-- or, more specifically, that holiday 2012 sales will not be enough to stop a multi-year decline in bricks and mortar retail sales, and that it may be possible that video game yearly sales as tracked by NPD may, at the peak of the next generation, be lower than the peak for the last generation;

and

B) PC gaming is not becoming ascendant over any of the console platforms individually, or even over all consoles in aggregate.


B) requires much, much larger shift in the market than A) does.

There is no reason to believe that an economic downturn should actually shift sales from consoles to PCs-- it will lower console sales more than PC sales, which is something different. The higher barriers to entry for the PC gaming market still exist-- more expensive hardware, more complex setup, support issues-- even while platforms like Steam try to mitigate those, but there are fundamental levels of irreducible complexity in the platform.


There is also some in that article that supports my thesis.

Looking out into the coming year it appears that the next 12 months will be just like the last 12, since Sony and Microsoft have made no public moves yet that suggest they will bring updated systems to the market any sooner than November 2013.

The clear implication there is that 2013 will be like 2012 because Sony and MS are not yet bringing new hardware to market.

In other words, that the decline over the past 2-3 years is at least in part due to the aging of the hardware, the inability of developers to make (or wish to make) compelling new content for it, the increasing price/performance gap that inevitably opens up between top of the line or even midrange gaming PCs and a platform that was designed a decade ago.

So even though he's saying the top and bottom of the cycle has shifted, he's not saying there is no cycle anymore, nor is he saying that console gaming isn't going to rebound. He is saying that retail-- which is what NPD tracks-- is not rebounding for 2012. (That was not a particularly bold a prediction when he made it because he already acknowledged there was no new hardware coming that year, and is even easier to make now, five months after the fact).

Along the axis of "the sky is falling, PC gaming is coming back, consoles are dead" a routine report of an ongoing decline in NPD brick and mortar retail sales doesn't even register.

Avatar

Armchair Speculation Pt 2

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, March 01, 2013, 15:52 (4067 days ago) @ narcogen

So the contraction in the total market may be smaller than it looks from just the retail market figures. He's not even sure that digital sales don't completely make up for the shortfall, which would mean that as far as developers and platform holders are concerned, there is no contraction-- there is only a shift from retail to digital. He can't be sure which is the case because nobody reports those figures in a way comparable to the NPD's retail figures, so there's no reliable metric for it.

There is a huge contraction even accounting for digital sales. Pretending digital sales make up for it and saying there's nothing wrong is how bubbles start.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-02-25-industry-turmoil-worst-since-80s-crash-says-bleszinski

One of the biggest designers in the business even says he won't come back till things straighten out.

Avatar

Armchair Speculation Pt 2

by ShadowOfTheVoid ⌂, South Carolina, Saturday, March 02, 2013, 22:25 (4065 days ago) @ Cody Miller

This gloom and doom crap has been giving me a headache. It's all you ever hear from the games media anymore. We're at the tail end of an unusually long generation and just now entering the beginning phases of the next generation (the Wii U being the only eight-gen system out right now, with the PS4 and "720" not coming out until Q4). This is when the market is always at its lowest point. They forget that these things are cyclical: a new generation of systems debuts, hardware & software sales start off slow and low, pick up steam, reach their peak several years after the system launches (and the PS3 and 360 actually didn't reach their peak until like 2011), and then decline and peter out, and their successors debut to renew the cycle all over again.

This has been the most successful generation in gaming history. The Wii, PS3, and 360 are the third, fourth, and fifth best-selling consoles ever, respectively, while the DS became the best-selling handheld system ever and the PSP becoming a surprising success as well. Also, more software sales records have been broken than ever before: Super Mario 3 sold 18 million copies, holding the record of "Best-selling non-bundled console title" until GTA: San Andreas unseated it. Now we've had close to a dozen titles (not including pack-ins) released since 2005 that have gone on to sell 20 million copies. All told, more systems and games have been sold this generation than in any prior generation. Yet despite this massive success, the games media, perhaps as part of a cynical attempt to garner readers by generating artificial controversy, proclaim that the sky is falling and that it's like 1983 all over again. Gimme a break with all the Chicken Little BS.

Avatar

No Microtransactions?

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, February 28, 2013, 23:36 (4067 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Can someone point me to where Bungie said there will be no Micro Transactions? The only place I heard this was Claude, and every other outlet says Activision did not comment on that particular topic.

No hats?

by kapowaz, Thursday, February 28, 2013, 23:41 (4067 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Can someone point me to where Bungie said there will be no in-game wearable hats? Activision hasn't commented on the subject, which to me is tantamount to evasion. I demand answers!

Avatar

Hats confirmed *IMG*

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Friday, March 01, 2013, 00:06 (4067 days ago) @ kapowaz

[image]

Avatar

Glad I wasn't drinking anything right now

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Friday, March 01, 2013, 06:43 (4067 days ago) @ Xenos

- No text -

Avatar

4 8 15 16 23 42

by car15, Friday, March 01, 2013, 10:12 (4067 days ago) @ Cody Miller

- No text -

Avatar

4 8 15 16 23 42

by Mr Daax ⌂ @, aka: SSG Daax, Friday, March 01, 2013, 10:33 (4067 days ago) @ car15

[image]

Thanks to Ibeechu for sharing the GIF awhile back!

Back to the forum index
RSS Feed of thread