Destiny is Not Canon

How does this happen? How do you create a compelling world and backstory, then completely have no idea at all how to tell a compelling narrative in it?

Shit Bungie. Destiny is fun as hell (up to level 20 anyway, we'll see how it plays out to 30), but man you guys absolutely suck at creating a narrative. I don't mean to be rude, but it was really not a good showing in the story department, and you guys have consistently failed at this since Halo 3.

We can discuss this here after everybody has finished and spoilers are allowed.

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Something, something traveler, guardians are fighting aliens. Something, something darkness returning to fight the traveler... Shoot more bad aliens.

That was my Beta impression and I have yet to purchase Destiny... How far off am I?

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Pretty much, actually. There are a few intriguing sub-plots thrown in there, but they're never really followed up on. The game just throws information at you and then promptly forgets about it.

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After the Beta I was really worried about the story aspects of Destiny . . . but I assumed they were just laying off the story because it was a Beta and they didn't want to get into it.
You mentioned Halo 3, honestly as long as the game tells a story as well as OSST or 3, I would be happy. The impression I got from the Beta was much less compelling than either of those.

I haven't started playing yet though. I hope I end up disagreeing with you . . .

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You mentioned Halo 3, honestly as long as the game tells a story as well as OSST or 3, I would be happy. The impression I got from the Beta was much less compelling than either of those.

Not. Even. Close. It's the worst one by far of all their games in terms of story.

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Going to have to agree. If anything Bungie's greatest storytelling achievements were with Halo 1 and Halo 2.

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I'm only level 15 so not quite done yet, but I'm kind of peeved by the fact that a game with a budget like this couldn't afford to change up the cutscenes and dialogue to acknowledge the race of the player's character (ie. why does my Awoken warlock come back to life in old Russia and have no idea who the Awoken are or what they're all about?)

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That still begs the question of why an Awoken or Exo was dead in a car in Russia.

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There's some fairly nice fiction in *shudder* The Grimoire. Indicates that, at least in Bungie's eyes, this is a coherent universe with a structure and a history.

Just a shame not much of that seems to be in the game proper.

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If it "fails" like Halo 3 and ODST, my favorite campaigns, color me excited! We've been so often on opposite sides of the spectrum in the past that your negative reviews actually gets me excited now, hah. :)

Maybe I'm a slowpoke or I walk when I could run, but I don't know how anybody is already judging any aspect of the game - it's taken me most of the day to just catch up with the Beta, let alone anything new, hah. :) I still have all of the Moon, Venus and Mars ahead of me and I'd be over half complete with a Halo campaign at this stage. And I've already learned so much about the universe from just listening to NPCs and examining styles of architecture that I know I'll be pulling new elements out of this game months, perhaps years, down the road like the rest of Bungie's games.

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If it "fails" like Halo 3 and ODST, my favorite campaigns, color me excited! We've been so often on opposite sides of the spectrum in the past that your negative reviews actually gets me excited now, hah. :)

No. The main narrative fails worse than anything I have seen in a long time.

Like:

Nothing makes sense.
Stuff is not connected to any other stuff.
Stuff that seems important is just forgotten about.
There are no good characters.
The speaker must be an idiot.

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No. The main narrative fails worse than anything I have seen in a long time.

Like:

Nothing makes sense.
Stuff is not connected to any other stuff.
Stuff that seems important is just forgotten about.
There are no good characters.
The speaker must be an idiot.

This is the first day of a project that is expected to be in development for the next ten years. I'd have been shocked if anything made sense at this juncture, if anything seemed connected to anything else, and that important story elements seem to have been forgotten about along the way. I'm surprised that you're surprised by this. We have the next ten years to experience the story as it unfolds through sequels and expansions. With the amount of time Bungie's had to prepare, I have every expectation that all these loose threads you're complaining about will come together.

As to your fourth point, well, I haven't finished the game yet (still on Venus), but I've enjoyed the little interactions I've had with various NPCs, both wandering through the Tower and vicariously via cutscene. I'd love to have more, but again, Day 1...

And if you can provide a non-spoilery explanation for your last point, I'd be interested to hear it (because apparently I'm a glutton for punishment).

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This is the first day of a project that is expected to be in development for the next ten years. I'd have been shocked if anything made sense at this juncture, if anything seemed connected to anything else, and that important story elements seem to have been forgotten about along the way. I'm surprised that you're surprised by this.

I haven't beaten it yet (and thus won't be checking this thread too deeply) but honestly, I just payed $60 for this. If this was intended to be just the tip of a ten year experience (as opposed to a AAA series with releases every couple years for a ten year period) then it should have been priced accordingly. I think Bungie intended this to be a stand-alone title worth $60. If I'm wrong I guess I just didn't do my research.

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This is the first day of a project that is expected to be in development for the next ten years. I'd have been shocked if anything made sense at this juncture, if anything seemed connected to anything else, and that important story elements seem to have been forgotten about along the way. I'm surprised that you're surprised by this.

You are surprised that I want a story that is good? They may have a ten year plan, but that doesn't mean the first story in it has to suck.

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I'm caught up to the first moon mission right now.

What irked me about the Speaker was when he said "oh, i could tell you of massive battles and how the traveler sacrificed himself...."

I was thinking, "yeah that would be nice know, since you expect me to risk death (again) for the traveler."

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Jury is out for me. I realize that this isn't going to be a Last of Us experience for me, but I went in not expecting that.

Dan Miller dropped in my party yesterday and said this is like Halo 1--the basis of much that will follow, and, to paraphrase, seeds are being planted now that won't be harvested for a long while.

This discussion reminds me of my experience with Breaking Bad. I liked the first episode, but didn't love it. I certainly didn't expect that show to become what it did when it hit its stride.

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Good comparison. I think some people might be going in expecting a movie when this is much more like a TV show just starting.

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For me I guess it just isn't what I expected. I feel like they advertised a theatrical release, asked me to pay for a theatrical release, but delivered an episode of TV show instead.
I don't mean length wise, I'm just continuing the example Kermit made.

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For me I guess it just isn't what I expected. I feel like they advertised a theatrical release, asked me to pay for a theatrical release, but delivered an episode of TV show instead.
I don't mean length wise, I'm just continuing the example Kermit made.

Actually, they didn't.

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For me I guess it just isn't what I expected. I feel like they advertised a theatrical release, asked me to pay for a theatrical release, but delivered an episode of TV show instead.
I don't mean length wise, I'm just continuing the example Kermit made.

Actually, they didn't.

That's fine and all, but each episode of a TV series like that is part of a larger story, but each one also has a beginning middle and end and is satisfying on its own. Destiny wasn't. It was the worst pilot episode ever.

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For me I guess it just isn't what I expected. I feel like they advertised a theatrical release, asked me to pay for a theatrical release, but delivered an episode of TV show instead.
I don't mean length wise, I'm just continuing the example Kermit made.

Actually, they didn't.

That's fine and all, but each episode of a TV series like that is part of a larger story, but each one also has a beginning middle and end and is satisfying on its own. Destiny wasn't. It was the worst pilot episode ever.

Wow. Worse than Cop Rock? Damn.

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Actually, they didn't.

You can't make the argument that the impression Bungie gave of Destiny was one of a "first episode of a ~30 ep. TV series". There are expectations of a game at full retail price launching on multiple platforms, and Bungie in no way tried to deter those expectations. They were inspired by telling stories in an episodic way, not releasing 30 bit-sized games over the space of 10 years each being $60.

What that article shows is nothing more than Bungie embracing episodic story telling, which can certainly be a positive. Bungie led us to beleive that this game would be a full title; something that would fully immerse us in their world. After my hours of playing there has been no story immersion.

If they are saving all the good story telling for later smaller episodes and just cramming this game with great gameplay but no story, that makes no sense. They want us immersed in the world. They would not intentionally release a "pilot episode" in the way the released Destiny.

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Are you saying it's not worth $60?

The game is more than story. I'll be disappointed if the story is bad like you say, but maybe the value is measured by fun and time spent playing. Cough, Titanfall, cough.

I'm a story guy, and I don't like this trend, yet I've bought three copies, and I think/hope I'll get my money's worth.

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Are you saying it's not worth $60?

I'm saying that if it is like the first episode of a TV series (30 minutes, ~29 episodes per season) then no, it is absolutely not worth $60. Having not finished it, I can't make that call yet. All I can say now is that I currently think the story and character development are falling flat. If that is Bungies intent (and they are use the next "episodes" to introduce good story telling) then I think that is a bad idea. I don't think that is the case though.

The game is more than story. I'll be disappointed if the story is bad like you say, but maybe the value is measured by fun and time spent playing. Cough, Titanfall, cough.

I agree, it is still very very fun for me to play. I fear though, that because there isn't good lore to get me engaged, I won't stick around much.
I understand too, that I shouldn't feel entitled to exactly the game I was expecting.

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I understand too, that I shouldn't feel entitled to exactly the game I was expecting.

But you do have the right to be disappointed. Don't let anyone make you feel bad for expressing your disappointment in something.

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This discussion reminds me of my experience with Breaking Bad. I liked the first episode, but didn't love it. I certainly didn't expect that show to become what it did when it hit its stride.

At least the first episode of breaking bad told a story, one that made sense, where things happened, and it was emotionally gripping.

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This discussion reminds me of my experience with Breaking Bad. I liked the first episode, but didn't love it. I certainly didn't expect that show to become what it did when it hit its stride.

At least the first episode of breaking bad told a story, one that made sense, where things happened, and it was emotionally gripping.

On some levels, yes, but go back and watch it now and you can see they were struggling with tone and some of the characters aren't quite defined. Jesse is a foil to Walter's big brain, not to his evil.

You may be right this time, Cody. I don't know yet.

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This discussion reminds me of my experience with Breaking Bad. I liked the first episode, but didn't love it. I certainly didn't expect that show to become what it did when it hit its stride.

At least the first episode of breaking bad told a story, one that made sense, where things happened, and it was emotionally gripping.

On some levels, yes, but go back and watch it now and you can see they were struggling with tone and some of the characters aren't quite defined. Jesse is a foil to Walter's big brain, not to his evil.

You may be right this time, Cody. I don't know yet.

Yeah, it's obvious they were feeling things out, but the point was you came for a narrative and you at least got one. Look at Halo. Huge world and universe, and the first game gave you a story without spoiling any of that.

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At least the first episode of breaking bad told a story, one that made sense, where things happened, and it was emotionally gripping.

On some levels, yes, but go back and watch it now and you can see they were struggling with tone and some of the characters aren't quite defined. Jesse is a foil to Walter's big brain, not to his evil.

Isn't that just character development?

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At least the first episode of breaking bad told a story, one that made sense, where things happened, and it was emotionally gripping.

On some levels, yes, but go back and watch it now and you can see they were struggling with tone and some of the characters aren't quite defined. Jesse is a foil to Walter's big brain, not to his evil.

Isn't that just character development?

Precisely. Character development you would not have seen coming were you judging the show by its first episode.

I'm not going to get too defensive about Destiny's story (yet) because I've seen so little of it. It might take me a long time to get my head around the story, which is rough, because, like Levi, I'm used to being done or close to done by now with the Halos (except the first one, which took me about a week--that was before I got into the habit of taking time off to play games).

Maybe all of Destiny 1 is foundational, with very few big events, but it's stupid for me to keep typing. You guys have finished the game (I assume), and you're entitled to your opinions.

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I'm going to give it at least a month before I decide if I'm done with it. But so far, it's too repetitive in terms of level design and too unengaging in terms of story to draw me in. The gameplay itself is fun, though, and I do love Crucible. So we'll see.

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Maybe all of Destiny 1 is foundational, with very few big events, but it's stupid for me to keep typing. You guys have finished the game (I assume), and you're entitled to your opinions.

That is exaclty my thought. WE've been given a (very) light introduction to the universe. The Grimoire Cards provide some context. I think the issue is the story that was being told in this, the pilot episode, was not told very well. We don't understand why we're doing what we're doing.

In Halo CE, the reason we didn't know much was because there was a mystery and that was part of the narrative (Why are the Covenant attacking? Where did the Flood come from? What does Halo do? Forerunner?!). The player knew that and could reconsile with not knowing and each level in the campaign had set objectives that fit in the larger mystery and advanced us closer to resolution.

In Destiny, there's mystery in the big, decade long picture, but I have no idea why I did what I did in the campaign, how it fits in the larger mystery, or what resolution mght look like. I'm completely clueless. The Grimoire Cards helped a little, but I had to fill in the gaps with my own opinions, which I don't know to be true.

I'm hoping the DLC will provide some clarity, we'll see.

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I've been accused of being confrontational, so please don't take this the wrong way. But do you see how disgruntled players have very little incentive to spend even more money on DLC in the blind hope that it will expand upon a story that should have been better explained in the first place? Even if you personally disagree that the story is bad or that downloading paid DLC to make sense of it is bad?

re: Grimoire cards - As with so many aspects of this game, I actually like the concept. I just hate the execution. Why are these not in-game? Why do so many of them have absolutely no text? Why is almost all of the game's backstory told in this format when the key points could (and should, IMO) have been expressed in the main narrative? Why does the game fail to explain at any point what Grimoire cards even are?! I wonder what percentage of players actually reads them...

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I do not take this as confrontational, no worries.

I may disagree with your opinion on the game (though I'm glad you're giving it time before you finalize), I agree with you on the story and not wanting to go on blind faith. I get it. I'm a Missouri Tigers fan, and I go on blind faith to the coaching staff every year. Subsequently, I get my heart broken every year.

I think it's reasonable for you to feel the way you do. I just feel differently. I think the biggest difference is that I am hopeful and you are not. That's not a bad thing, or a good thing, the concept itself is indifferent. It's just how we are basing our opinions.

Hope.

We both probably hope the DLC is great, but you are not hopeful that it will be. I am hopeful.

Also, I don't like that Grimoire Cards are not in game (I agree the execution is a bit wonky) - but it does give me the benefit of reading them while I'm at work!

If you're playing, I'm off for the rest of the week. I'm on PS4. PSN ID: SpleenCarnival. We should get together.

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I'm an Xboner, sorry. :(

But thanks for the offer. My roommate has a PS4 with Destiny, I'll see if he will let me create a character on his Gamertag. (Or whatever it is on PS.)

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I've been accused of being confrontational, so please don't take this the wrong way. But do you see how disgruntled players have very little incentive to spend even more money on DLC in the blind hope that it will expand upon a story that should have been better explained in the first place? Even if you personally disagree that the story is bad or that downloading paid DLC to make sense of it is bad?

re: Grimoire cards - As with so many aspects of this game, I actually like the concept. I just hate the execution. Why are these not in-game? Why do so many of them have absolutely no text? Why is almost all of the game's backstory told in this format when the key points could (and should, IMO) have been expressed in the main narrative? Why does the game fail to explain at any point what Grimoire cards even are?! I wonder what percentage of players actually reads them...

I don't mind that they're not in the game. I've viewed them as extras for the hardcore, but that assumes that they are supplemental, not primary. I've gone to look at them once after I started playing, and immediately found a "come back after the beta" card, and I was like, huh?

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Don't get too excited, I think there's going to be a lot of people agreeing with Cody this time.

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Don't get too excited, I think there's going to be a lot of people agreeing with Cody this time.

It's expected. Cody created a civil war last time around. This seems tame in comparison, so far, hah. :)

After every release there's a big hoopla and lots of complaints and rants, found often in a vehement voice and split into multiple threads. People have built up passion, hype, and huge expectations; it can't be helped! As days and weeks go by the tone settles and some of the people who were once pissed see the game for what it's trying to do and not what they wanted it to be and come to appreciate it. Sometimes, years later, the game that was once trashed into oblivion on fan forums is fondly remembered and wanted to be bought all over again! From Halo2Sucks.com to Halo 2 Anniversary, hah. I myself loudly criticized ODST upon release and now I absolutely adore it.

This is also a whole new series, too. I always assumed there would be departures after people actually played it. Different boats for different folks... If that's a saying? A fan forum highlights passion - all kinds - so it's impossible to see how Destiny will fare by the most immediate and loudest opinions. Now I want to go play Destiny and soak it all in, not write about it more (and that's another reason why positive reviews often come later and quieter). :)

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Er, not canon with respect to what? The Destiny universe? The Halo universe? The... real... universe?

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Er, not canon with respect to what? The Destiny universe? The Halo universe? The... real... universe?

It's a long story, but when I say 'not canon' I just mean the story was bad.

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It's a long story

It's a bad story. I think you're not canon!

[image]

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Okay, I have a story issue / gameplay complaint that I don't want to start a whole new thread for.

What the hell is a Vanguard? And how do I get their "marks"? Is this part of a story I missed?
I'm assuming they are some kind of "reward" you get as their name is similar to "Crucible marks". But the game has made any mention to me at all about what Vanguards or their marks mean.
I keep completing bounties but I can't really figure out what I get for doing so. Am I getting loot / glimmer?
The interface is entirely "click and forget" so I quickly forget whatever it gives me. Is it like that time the Speaker gave me a free "pass" for a gun?
Why would I buy a ship / sparrow?
They all seem to have the same stats and cost butt loads of glimmer. The game hasn't told me anything about them yet and you only ever see your ship in between levels, I must have missed the reason I would want it.

Also just a comment on story progress:
I am currently level 8, having played through all of Old Russia, and a couple missions on the Moon. I haven't not yet gotten any story information that I didn't know going into the game. The fact that Rasputin had control of defenses is sort of interesting, but currently irrelevant. The fact that the hive have a presence on the moon is already known. The Darkness is coming(tm) is old news.
Are you supposed to talk to people between missions or something to get the story? Like, I currently don't care about any of these NPCs (I can't call them characters because I know nothing about them) and I have been playing for hours.

Should I settle myself in for more of the same, with tidbits of uninteresting story given by Dinklebot, or do things change soon?

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the game is beautiful and fun to play, but like you, I don't really know what's going on. I've only played earth and one moon mission, I guess i need to start talking to NPC's and reading grimoire cards.

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I guess i need to start talking to NPC's and reading grimoire cards.

I tried talking to NPCs to no avail. I went online to read Grimoire cards but it is almost entirely back-story and general descriptions of stuff we already know. Plus, Grimoire cards aren't the game, it would bug me if I have to go to some other medium and read text in order to contextualize the game experience.

Maybe I'm not being creative enough, but I'm doing everything I can think of to get this game to explain story/mechanics to me. I guess I just need to play more and maybe it will eventually explain things to me?

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Huh, barrel rolls? Does that unlock later and I just don't know? I honestly wasn't going to go back to the ship lady, but if I can get new abilities from her I might check it out.

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Some Sparrows have it, some don't. They are listed just like weapon "skills" usually are on weapons. Use Inspect to be sure.

One thing I noticed is that every shop-Sparrow has Brake, whereas the plot-Sparrow does not.

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I have questions as well.

How often am I supposed to find those green loot chests? Am I just not noticing them on many missions?
who was that masked guy that told me about the traveller, and why did he wait until I'd already finished a mission?
is my character's race and gender purely cosmetic, or does it affect my stats?
is there a good reason not to use my heavy machine gun for every enemy, since purple ammo drops happen all the damn time?
I went into some caves in the russia area, and there were enemies in them that I couldn't damage. they said 'resist' when I shot them. what's going on there? do I need some other kind of damage to hurt them?

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How often am I supposed to find those green loot chests? Am I just not noticing them on many missions?

Not very often. One or two per mission, they are hidden.

[*]who was that masked guy that told me about the traveller, and why did he wait until I'd already finished a mission?

That was explained in dialogue.

[*]is my character's race and gender purely cosmetic, or does it affect my stats?

You can easily look that up. Consmetic.

[*]is there a good reason not to use my heavy machine gun for every enemy, since purple ammo drops happen all the damn time?

Heavy ammo does not drop frequently at all.

[*]I went into some caves in the russia area, and there were enemies in them that I couldn't damage. they said 'resist' when I shot them. what's going on there? do I need some other kind of damage to hurt them?

Yes.

No offense, but all of your questions can be answered by simple googling. I was asking more story /comprehension questions that I think the game failed to properly explain, or that I missed and can't find online.

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Shit Bungie. Destiny is fun as hell, but man you guys absolutely suck at creating a narrative.

This is my first impression as well. I'm only up to level 5, but so far the story has been scant and I have no idea what's going on. I got revived by some ghost robot (was I the skeleton in that car?) and I spent two hours making an extraordinarily handsome blue fellow who looks like Ziggy Stardust. OK that part was amazing. but then the game just dumps me into the hub world with no context whatsoever? I finished an entire mission before my character was even briefed on what the hell a guardian even is. I've finished a bunch more missions after that, and nothing has really happened! I think I found an ancient AI, but that's all I was told. So what? Where's the relevance? Who gives a rip?

I know lots of people on the internet like to bemoan modern games narratives as unnecessarily hand-holding the player and shoving narrative down his throat (MGS4...!) but surely there must be a happy medium between no story at all and too much.

Full disclosure: I barely watched anything before the game was released and didn't play the beta. I didn't buy the game either (got it for free) so I'm not feeling any of that "must defend my purchase" emotion.

I agree though, the gameplay is awesome. it's very rewarding to shoot those 4 armed alien guys and also those explodey zombie dudes. I like it when you shoot that knives dude's head off and steam shoots out of his corpse. So far the actual shooty part of the game has been a blast, and the game is beautiful, the art direction is great, and I love the UI. but holy hell does the writing suck sometimes ("That's a wizard! Kill it!") and what the hell is going on with the ghost's voice? did they forget to replace the placeholder dialogue? Is that why Marty isn't at Bungie anymore?

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Destiny is Not Canon (Destiny)

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