I'm done with Destiny. I said I'd give the game a month before I made up my mind, but I just can't go through with it. It's too depressing. Playing this game is an exercise in frustration and disappointment. I cannot justify continuing to play when I know nothing is going to get any better about it. I actually decided I was done with Destiny yesterday, but today's "free content update" sealed the deal for me.

Too many members are saying that Bungie don't owe us this or that and that we should be grateful for "free content".

This is not "free content". It's all rehash. All of it.

The purpose of Queen's Wrath is simply to shorten the dull grind, not expand the game. It doesn't make Destiny better, it makes it minutely more functional by guaranteeing better drops.

The grind is awful. The RNG system is awful. If that's "the real game" that supposedly starts at level 20, then the real game sucks. People hate grinding for random loot drops. That's why so many players farm the cave in Old Russia. If Bungie has no actual content to sustain this game beyond the paid DLC, and if permutations on the grind are all we get included with the price of the main game, Destiny will fail.

And it already has failed for me.

Half of this community is willing to criticize the failings of this game. The other half retort with "don't like it, don't play".

Such a comment is the reason that gamers are still stigmatized. We should we allowed to remark on the shortcomings of the game without being made to feel like shit for doing it. This is not about entitlement or instant gratification. It's about the game's value proposition. Criticism of the game's flaws is the only chance we have to change that value proposition.

And make no mistake. I want Destiny to change. I don't want to see this game fail. Bungie is onto a great concept here and the foundations for a great game are all there, but the way they're going about executing on that concept is just pathetic. This cannot sustain a player base for any respectable length of time.

Bungie: Either provide a more complete experience at launch or go through with your promises for substantial free content updates. But don't do what you're doing now. Revise your strategy. Staying vigilant to your "vision" of the game won't mean anything when the game world becomes next to empty.

We ARE owed, because this game has siphoned money from our wallets and given us too little value in return. Things need to change or players will walk. Mark my words.

I'm getting out early.

If you enjoy the game, I am sincerely happy for you. I only wish that I could see what you see in it.

I had a similar community problem with Mass Effect 3, except I was on the "I love this" side, and the community I was part of were extremely aggressive about their hatred for the ending (this forum has nothing on that, my friends). I get that it's quite upsetting for people to read how other people don't like the stuff you like.

But I also think that it is the community here that is my major draw, I want to talk about a game that many admmit is flawed, and I want to have an open and honest discussion about that.

I'll be sad to see you go, Car, I like the chats we're having about Destiny. I hope you continue to invest in us, if not the game :)

Too many members are saying that Bungie don't owe us this or that and that we should be grateful for "free content".

It's not bonus content. It's stuff they said long ago would be part of the evolving ecosystem. Entitled kids that want everything now now now are the whiny bunch that have complained about not finding high-level gear or cry about being locked out of things that they have zero chance of completing alone.

We ARE owed, because this game has siphoned money from our wallets and given us too little value in return.

Ummm... No. No, you can always take the game back if you don't feel you're getting your money's worth. Titanfall was a glorified Beta test, sold for $60, had far less content, and got rave reviews. The value of a dollar is entirely subjective, and some people think Titanfall's actually a good game, while I can't stand more than 30 minutes of it, with ten of those being loading screens. Destiny's given me my money's worth and then some. More stuff will be coming for it, whether I'm owed or not, and that's great. I'm not blind to the industry trying to give us less for more, but Destiny's not a simple flat release. It will grow and evolve.

I'm getting out early.

Okay, bye.

If you enjoy the game, I am sincerely happy for you. I only wish that I could see what you see in it.

Could have fooled everyone by the way you love to repeatedly point out that you dislike the notion of anyone finding anything good about the game. But yeah, bye. So long.

I'm not going to bother with any of that except for the last part.

I have consistently praised this game for the things I think it does well and, while I disagree vocally when people praise elements that I dislike, I don't make them feel like shit for liking the game. (Last night notwithstanding. I lost my cool.)

My problem isn't with your opinion. My problem is with your urge to repeatedly state that opinion over and over and over when anyone finds something they enjoy about the game. They can't have fun without you jumping in and pointing out why they shouldn't be having fun. Get over it. Seriously. People will like this game. You don't need to justify your feelings. If it's not for you, it's not for you! Return it and stop moaning about it!

We ARE owed, because this game has siphoned money from our wallets and given us too little value in return.

Ummm... No. No, you can always take the game back if you don't feel you're getting your money's worth. Titanfall was a glorified Beta test, sold for $60, had far less content, and got rave reviews. The value of a dollar is entirely subjective, and some people think Titanfall's actually a good game, while I can't stand more than 30 minutes of it, with ten of those being loading screens. Destiny's given me my money's worth and then some. More stuff will be coming for it, whether I'm owed or not, and that's great. I'm not blind to the industry trying to give us less for more, but Destiny's not a simple flat release. It will grow and evolve.

I'm with Korny on this. Don't speak for me and what I do or do not find value in, especially since it appears your apprasial of the game boils down to a cold-hearted economic transaction. Life, games, and Destiny are more than "X" amount of content fairly traded for "X" amount of money.

It boils down to a cold hard economic transaction because the game offers nothing more than that to engage me.

There is some level of truth to that. I never intentionally set out to ruin anyone's fun, but I'm not the best communicator either. I wrote this piece as a thought-out and deliberate parting shot to make up for that and to explain my opinions in a more calm and measured fashion.

Such a comment is the reason that gamers are still stigmatized. We should we allowed to remark on the shortcomings of the game without being made to feel like shit for doing it. This is not about entitlement or instant gratification. It's about the game's value proposition. Criticism of the game's flaws is the only chance we have to change that value proposition.

I hate that you feel like people are hating on the haters. But I also have to say that for a fan site, it is very discouraging to me to read the constant repetitive stream of negativity. I think once you've made your points, then that should be that. I'm not attempting to be rude or mean, just making my point. I love criticism. It's how we make things better. However I feel it would be better spent on bungie.net forums that maybe get a little more review from the developers.

We ARE owed, because this game has siphoned money from our wallets and given us too little value in return. Things need to change or players will walk. Mark my words.

I don't think we are owed anything. This isn't a house, or car, or other vital service. We all choose to play games knowing that they could suck. We've all bought games that suck and felt stuck with them. (Yay gamefly!) We all have been to big ticket movies that sucked too. Such is life. I'm sure if you trade in now they'll give you good money for destiny and you will be out very little for the amount of time you have put in.

Best of luck!

The community is part of what make Bungie's games great, and you're ruining that as much as you're trying to ruin Destiny for people that are a part of that community. Even Cody, a massive detractor of Destiny, posted his well thought out opinion one time. He never posted it again. He got his point across and let everyone else enjoy themselves. Learn from that.

I'm happy people like you exist, because you are what make game developers strive to be better. Fans like myself will give them passes. The trick is in your communication and execution. There's an opportunity there for you. Say it once and be done.

EDIT: words

It boils down to a cold hard economic transaction because the game offers nothing more than that to engage me.

Now THAT response makes me sad. I'm not sure I even want to know what the view is like from your perspective if you can't find anything engaging in Destiny. I'm not about to go extrapolating; but there is a wealth of beautiful art, spectacular music, a growing canon, and even tons of good ol' fashioned face-blasting on tap, and you can't find anything to engage you?

Fare well out there, man. I hope something at some point changes your mind.

~m

(•_•)

( •_•)>⌐■-■

(⌐■_■)You ran on empty.
-------------------------------------

Au revoir car15. See you st-...oh. Right.

The grind is awful. The RNG system is awful. If that's "the real game" that supposedly starts at level 20, then the real game sucks. People hate grinding for random loot drops. That's why so many players farm the cave in Old Russia. If Bungie has no actual content to sustain this game beyond the paid DLC, and if permutations on the grind are all we get included with the price of the main game, Destiny will fail.

I think far too many people have no idea what the post-20 game is. Here's a hint: It doesn't involve standing in front of a cave in Old Russia. In a week you can reach rank 2 with the Vanguard with just bounties and start purchasing Legendary gear with a shocking 100% success rate. No random loot drops, no Cryptarch involved.

There is nothing in Destiny that is reliant --RELIANT-- on random loot drops. Random loot drops may be one path towards your goal, but there is always a reliable alternative. Maybe that reliable alternative doesn't suit your timetable, but that doesn't negate it.

Bungie: Either provide a more complete experience at launch or go through with your promises for substantial free content updates. But don't do what you're doing now. Revise your strategy. Staying vigilant to your "vision" of the game won't mean anything when the game world becomes next to empty.

For Pete's sake, the game has been out for two weeks. Be reasonable in your expectations, maybe?

But that's what confuses me. You say this is a community that values active discussion, but apparently that only holds true if said active discussion is of a positive nature. Stating your opinion once and having everyone nod and say, "Yes, well spoken sir" is just about as far as you can get from an active discussion. That's just people talking at each other.

This is a Bungie fan forum. Perhaps it's just not the right venue for the type of discussion that I want to have. It does seem like negativity is, at the very least, discouraged here.

I don't just want to rag on this game 24/7. I'd like to come up with constructive, grounded ideas about how it can be fixed. Every time I offered ideas, I was being entitled and expecting too much free stuff from Bungie.

I've never been a very good communicator when it comes to things that I'm passionate about, but it seems to me that if you state your opinion once and then never mention it again, you're stifling your own ability to comment on developments as they happen, which includes game world events as well as discussions taking place here on the forums.

For Pete's sake, the game has been out for two weeks. Be reasonable in your expectations, maybe?

Well, it does offer redeeming qualities. The art is beautiful, the music is spectacular. But as great as all of that stuff is, none of it provides a reason to continue playing. The core game simply doesn't do it for me.

Thanks.

You can have that discussion on the post you make with your opinion. In your case, you've made that post at least three times, and in countless other replies to other threads. The loot cave discussion somehow turned into a heated argument about the game when you got involved.

Post it. Discuss it. Move on.

You don't need to jump into every thread and explain why I shouldn't enjoy grinding faction rep to buy legendary gear. It's exhausting to read, and no, it's not avoidable. You're literally on every thread in this forum explaining how I shouldn't enjoy Destiny.

And in order to reach Vanguard rank 2... you have to grind.

A game like this is too repetitive to sustain itself without regular content drops. Real content, not rehashed old content.

That's my opinion.

I'd rather not discuss the loot cave thread in any great detail as the moderators have made it pretty clear that we aren't to start that shit storm back up again. And for the record, I agree that it got way out of hand and that I was out of line in my tone.

But not in my point.

What sparked the argument in my mind was the comment from a certain user gloating about griefing other players. The notion that any one of us has the authority to enforce the "correct" way to play this game. It's one thing to talk/complain about it here. It's quite another to actually go out into the game world and screw with other players for enjoyment. The comment got to me, particularly after several other people saw nothing wrong with it and even congratulated it.

Destiny. The anti-social social game.

At any rate, I will continue to reply to this thread for the time being, but I am not allowing myself to post anywhere else, so my opinion will remain confined here from this point forward, and as ridiculous as it sounds, I honestly believe this game affects my mood and makes me more confrontational. Notice I wasn't this way before it came out.

I'm not blaming the game, but it's another good reason for me to stop playing and move on.

I don't understand the mentality that playing the game = grinding.

It's the investment system. It's a manifestation of the old story about the kids playing on the old man's lawn. He tells them to leave him alone, but they ignore him, so he finally gets them to go away by paying them each a dollar for the privilege to play on his lawn, waiting a few weeks, and then cutting their pay to 50 cents with no explanation. Dejected, they leave and go find another lawn.

It's the investment system. It's a manifestation of the old story about the kids playing on the old man's lawn. He tells them to leave him alone, but they ignore him, so he finally gets them to go away by paying them each a dollar for the privilege to play on his lawn, waiting a few weeks, and then cutting their pay to 50 cents with no explanation. Dejected, they leave and go find another lawn.

The point of that story was the kids were idiots for allowing a bit of rewards get in the way of what was always legitimate fun. You're, unfortunately, playing the part of the kids with a big helping of rudeness and name calling. Others here are just as negative as you if not more so and have been negative literally for years yet they are still welcome. Why? Because they learned to at least be civil. They knew that NO community wants a member who resorts to telling them that they're a, and I quote, a circle-jerk bullshit excuse for a community.

That's not bad communications. Thats not a difference of opinions about a game feature. That's you being a bad, uncivil, trouble maker who in my opinion should have at least gotten a temp ban. It's always sad when someone feels they need to leave a community. It's less sad when they treat that community the way you treated us.

It's the investment system. It's a manifestation of the old story about the kids playing on the old man's lawn. He tells them to leave him alone, but they ignore him, so he finally gets them to go away by paying them each a dollar for the privilege to play on his lawn, waiting a few weeks, and then cutting their pay to 50 cents with no explanation. Dejected, they leave and go find another lawn.

Yeah I guess I'm immune to the Jedi Mindtricks. The old man is handing out Crucible Marks while I have a great time playing Control. He's giving me rep and marks while I wander around mars on partrol just taking it in and seeing how quickly I can tear through the cabal. He's dropping random engrams while I'm whooping after finishing a strike. When I turn in that engram and it gives me something worthless, I shrug, dismantle it and merrily run to the bounties guy in the tower to see what adventure I could go on.

If getting to Level 20 took any more time than it took for me to get through the main story then I'd probably gripe as I'd have felt like the game was forcing me to do something repeatedly to see more of the game. This has never happened to me, aside from the raid which is an extremely special case*, so I haven't had an issue yet.

And yeah look, if the game came with every ability unlocked and every gun with every upgrade unlocked, and I had access to every activity, I'd probably enjoy it even more, but I'm under the impression that some progression addicts would write the game off and leave the world pretty empty. I'm fine with the balance they struck.

* I'd have more of an issue if the Raid wasn't so hard sounding. I'm happy to wait until I happen to be the right level for it, because I'm hoping by that time I've got a crew of 6 guardians.

And in order to reach Vanguard rank 2... you have to grind.

A game like this is too repetitive to sustain itself without regular content drops. Real content, not rehashed old content.

That's my opinion.

And in order to reach the Tower for the first time, you have to grind through the first mission.

At some point, dude, you have to actually play the game. There are so many ways to reach Vanguard rank 2: bounties, patrols, material exchanges, strikes, and the daily heroics/weekly heroics. If you can't find a single way to gather Vanguard points that you consider fun, then set down the controller and walk away. If playing the game at all is a "grind" to you then stop playing--which is what you say you're doing so okay good.

I don't know what kind of continually unique content you expect Bungie to deliver every 2 weeks for the next 10 years. What studio in this industry has ever delivered that?

What Pete said.

There is no grind.

It's Halo with better co-op netcode and more characters with more to say and less plot (But the story is pretty much the same but with a high fantasy focus. Screw around for a bit then destroy the ultimate evil)

The investment system is one of the best I have used. It's not wasting my time. It gives me gear, very slowly at a guaranteed minimum rate with some extras that actually means something to me and requires me to reward that luck with work. None of it is so crazy that it full on breaks the Halo (more than the ultimate attacks I guess), but the most subtle of perks makes all the difference in the Crucible and harder PvP missions. I can feel the change in that legendary Handcannon. I will use it for days or weeks. If a slightly better one dropped tomorrow it would be Diablo and that game is not for me or many others.

Is playing Halo Legendary for the 8th time a Grind? No. I've put that equivalent in hours into this game already. It already paid for half itself in the Alpha/Beta. Having loot dosn't make it a grind. Being a crappy game makes it a grind. If you think the Halo gunplay mixed with Dota ultimate abilities sucks, then you will hate it and the loot you are sad you didn't get wont make the game more fun.

It's also Ok to think the game sucks. Nobody wants anyone to shut up. Bungie wants criticism to make it better. But complain about parts of the game that are actually well thought out and progressive compared to it's contemporaries sucks.

Diablo III has one guaranteed Legendary an hour. I suggest you check it out. If they did that in Destiny I would be really annoyed. Special drops that drop every hour are not special.

I don't think that Destiny is gods gift, but I haven't spent 15 days straight with a game ever. And it's not because I want to collect stuff, it's because I want to shoot stuff with others and get the odd random reward whilst working towards achievable ones. It may not be, minute for minute, as white knuckle awesome as a better Halo. But it's closer than most shooters and there is a lot more of it with a lot more variables.

Too many members are saying that Bungie don't owe us this or that and that we should be grateful for "free content".

It's not bonus content. It's stuff they said long ago would be part of the evolving ecosystem. Entitled kids that want everything now now now are the whiny bunch that have complained about not finding high-level gear or cry about being locked out of things that they have zero chance of completing alone.

I mean, games are supposed to be fun, and I pay to buy them. If they are not fun, and make you do bullshit before having fun, you can voice your dissatisfaction. There are tons of games that do not waste your time, and try to be fun every second. It's entirely reasonable for he, or me to stop playing until a new raid comes out when right now the game is completely boring, and from the looks of it those queen's bounties are exactly the same type of thing, just dressed up with a different name.

It boils down to a cold hard economic transaction because the game offers nothing more than that to engage me.

Now THAT response makes me sad. I'm not sure I even want to know what the view is like from your perspective if you can't find anything engaging in Destiny. I'm not about to go extrapolating; but there is a wealth of beautiful art, spectacular music, a growing canon, and even tons of good ol' fashioned face-blasting on tap, and you can't find anything to engage you?

Those things are great, but there is so much bullshit mixed in. There are plenty of games that give you all that without the baggage.

More and more people on here are reaching level 20, and more and more people on here are agreeing with me that the end game sucks monkey nuts.

I reached Vanguard 2 with no grind at all. Just played the game.

Try to change the perspective. Rather than "To get this (insert legendary/exotic item) I have to play so many of these missions", Look at it as "I replayed some of these missions on heroic difficulty and I got this exotic awesomeness as a reward" :)

I think you are focusing on the reward as the goal, rather than bungie saying "hey, you liked replaying these missions, here's a little something in return!"

If you just don't like replaying the missions, then that's unfortunate, but MCC comes out soon.

More and more people on here are reaching level 20, and more and more people on here are agreeing with me that the end game sucks monkey nuts.

It sounds like you are trying to convince people that this game sucks (in your opinion). Y at this point would you continue to participate in a group/forum that is for people who like/enjoy/are fans of this game? I'm not suggesting you leave, but it just seems odd.

Some people just like to hear themselves talk.

I've had no trouble finding people from this community that are still loving this game post level 20. I play with them every night. Cody+Hyokin equals more and more people apparently.

Too many members are saying that Bungie don't owe us this or that and that we should be grateful for "free content".

It's not bonus content. It's stuff they said long ago would be part of the evolving ecosystem. Entitled kids that want everything now now now are the whiny bunch that have complained about not finding high-level gear or cry about being locked out of things that they have zero chance of completing alone.

I mean, games are supposed to be fun, and I pay to buy them. If they are not fun, and make you do bullshit before having fun, you can voice your dissatisfaction. There are tons of games that do not waste your time, and try to be fun every second. It's entirely reasonable for he, or me to stop playing until a new raid comes out when right now the game is completely boring, and from the looks of it those queen's bounties are exactly the same type of thing, just dressed up with a different name.

Yeah and right now I find playing all the activities in Destiny a lot of fun. Shame you don't.

If you just don't like replaying the missions, then that's unfortunate, but MCC comes out soon.

Speaking of replaying missions...

- No text -

If Hyokin would have liked the game more if there were customs? I feel like that's his cup of tea.

If you just don't like replaying the missions, then that's unfortunate, but MCC comes out soon.

Speaking of replaying missions...

But just think of all the loot you will get from replaying those missions...
And how that will let you change up how you play...
At least you can customize your look...
And have special events...

Well, at least there's the nostalgia.

- No text -

If Hyokin would have liked the game more if there were customs? I feel like that's his cup of tea.

And I will say that's one thing that's missing for me as well. I just assume that wasn't high on the priority for launch. Hopefully it will be added in before my next LAN. I'm already considering a raid centered LAN sometime in the future. Having some customs to go with that would be nice.

Halo after a while sucks. (Not just Halo 4 guys and gals, all of em)
Destiny after a while sucks.

What makes these games fun is who you play with.

There are many people on HBO who've said "Halo 4 sucks ass, but when I was playing with so and so, I forgot about that and it was fun, briefly."

That's how I look at Destiny.

I don't have time to sink 40 hours a week into this game to keep up. I don't have any desire to play MP unless I want that bounty.

BUT, if I've got community to play with, a place to socialize, it makes it more worthwhile.

Not interested in farming loot cave.

Not interested in chasing loot.

I am interested in the quest, the puzzle, and playing with others.

Find some friends to play with.

- No text -

When is your next LAN, Blue? I'm determined to make at least one DBO-related LAN in the next year or so!

No idea. I want to do another one, but there's a lot of moving pieces. Plus there may be one or two other people in the South considering one as well.

I agree. Hearing about them for the past 4 years and not ever participating makes me sad. :(

I gotta get to one of these before a mini breitzen comes into the picture!

Cool. I'll keep my eyes and ears peeled. I probably wouldn't be able to make one until at least next Spring anyway.

raid centered LAN

awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww yiss

Almost as good as a hunting Bones centered LAN.

Maybe we will still be able to unlock the Halo 3 recon helmet! I never did that :)

Hows the LAN gonna work with an online only game bro? Can your connection handle all that data?

And am I invited?

We were playing over Xbox live with no problem at our cabin last time.

Invites depend on what you pay me.

I don't know what kind of continually unique content you expect Bungie to deliver every 2 weeks for the next 10 years. What studio in this industry has ever delivered that?

None. And none can. Even with this huge budget they aren't doing it. Video game development is simply too labor and cost intensive to give players substantial integrated content every 2 weeks. That's why the idea of a game you play everyday like an MMO or Destiny is a bad idea, since you will quickly run out of things to do.

We were playing over Xbox live with no problem at our cabin last time.

That's not entirely accurate.

We didn't play as a group online, nor invite any outside gamers that weekend. What we did, was essentially all "check in" to XBL, but played via system link. This allowed everyone to use their GT, to be seen online, however we were not sending 16 players worth of actual gameplay data out to the internet and back to the cabin.

The XBONE will require that check in then you can system link, so you should be OK for the MCC in the future. Theoretically. We know it worked for us on the 360s.

Where Destiny differs, and has yet to be seen, is if one home grade connection can handle 16 unique clients and the content that destiny requires. Personally, unless you've got somewhere in mind with a big pipe, up AND down, I don't think a Destiny LAN is gonna work well.

Won't know till we try! XBONERS VS PISSFOURS, bring it.

Invites depend on what you pay me.

Red, in order to level up your rep with the Blue faction leader, you'll need to complete some bounties to harvest the tears of a foul creature known as Bones. It will be a test of your skills, but the rewards I hear are moon pies and RC cola ;)

We played Iron Brigade over Live while Korny and Sammy and a few others played BF4 and Titanfall. I don't think we had all 16 online at the same time, but we did have a good portion.

We played Iron Brigade over Live while Korny and Sammy and a few others played BF4 and Titanfall. I don't think we had all 16 online at the same time, but we did have a good portion.

And then the Iron Brigade game crapped out on us when we were *almost* finished with it.

Damn I was pissed.

Like I said, won't know till someone tries. If it doesn't work out, be sure to have a plan B.

I lived with the beast that is Bluerunner for 3 years. That is payment enough.

Totally agree, WOW was such a flop.

Don't forget locking ourselves in a barn in the middle of Arkansas for 4 days and playing Halo 2 nonstop.

It boils down to a cold hard economic transaction because the game offers nothing more than that to engage me.

Halo after a while sucks. (Not just Halo 4 guys and gals, all of em)

Does it? I haven't noticed. Sometimes it seems to get better over repeat playthroughs, even.

Destiny after a while sucks.

In certain respects, but the core gameplay experience getting old isn't one that gets brought up much. What people are complaining about is ultimately that they're being encouraged to do things they don't want to do by the progression system. (Outside of some milder behaviours in Reach and Halo 4), it's not comparable to what happens with Halo, even if we could agree that Halo gets old (which it doesn't in a matter of days like Destiny seems to have with some people).

What makes these games fun is who you play with.

That's... one of the things that makes them fun. :/

I guess not every game is for every body. Personally, I'm enjoying the hell out of this game, and I love the dungeon grind. The fact that these dungeons are still fun the 20th time I've played them makes me very, very happy. And they still challenge me, which is equally amazing.

Did I expect a larger, more open world? Yes.

Do I want many, many more places to explore? Yes.

Does the story make any sense whatsoever? No.

BUT: Is the game fun? HELL YES.

And that's what really matters to me. I'm sorry that you don't feel the same way and I hope your next game scratches all the right itches for you.

I'll re-phrase, it's MORE fun with your friends than solo.

Destiny is not a game that encourages solo play (not that it isn't possible). The encounters are designed to be played with other players, hopefully friends.

Many of the frustrations that people have with this game are legitimate , and I experience them too. Destiny is a fun game to play. But when you get to a point in ANY game where you're not playing it because it's fun, then I think it's time to stop and go to something else.

(If I hadn't started posting to HBO around ODST, I would have been done with Halo after I beat the campaign on H3. It was getting stale for me at that point. It was still a great game, but I realized I needed people to play with to keep me interested in it. In Destiny this is even more obvious.)

You made it this long? I haven't even fired it up to do multiplayer in three days.

That being said, did you really need a farewell post for this?

What sparked the argument in my mind was the comment from a certain user gloating about griefing other players. The notion that any one of us has the authority to enforce the "correct" way to play this game. It's one thing to talk/complain about it here. It's quite another to actually go out into the game world and screw with other players for enjoyment. The comment got to me, particularly after several other people saw nothing wrong with it and even congratulated it.

Destiny. The anti-social social game.

My hope is that a full reading of what I said about this makes it clear that gloating and enjoyment were not my motivating factors. I did attempt to be funny about it a few times in later posts and that may have fallen flat, at least for you. I also can't help but feel that since we've disagreed before, there was something of a tripwire that was tripped for you, which is unfortunate. I suspect that you've not gotten the validation you wanted here, and I've been there, believe me. I know a lot of people here, but I didn't always. It's easier to assume the best of someone you know, and it follows that it's easy for you to assume the worst of me. Fortunately for me, several people here know I'm not a troll, that that's not my thing, and gave me the benefit of a doubt. Others took me to task, but were respectful about it. The latter is key, regardless of whether you've been here 20 years or two hours. I make mistakes, misjudgments, and later get defensive about them (until I don't), and maybe I shouldn't have sat in that cave, but most of all it saddens me if you are leaving here because of anything to do with me.

I wish you the best.

Yeah, well at that point I'd already decided I was done anyway, and I had lost my cool, so I didn't really care about being a member of the community anymore.

I have apologized for losing my cool in that thread. I apologize for it again now. I made generalizations about the community based on the behavior of a few and said things that were unwarranted.

Yes.

I'm not sure whether this is farewell or hello then, from my perspective. Farewell Destiny, hello people not playing Destiny? We'll go with the ambivalent Ciao! then.

Well, I'm only commenting in this thread from now on, so I'd call it "Car15 Corner", or "Kar15 Korner" if you're feeling krazy.

Respectful hand shake. It's behind us. I lost my cool in that thread and I apologize for my venom.

Don't worry, I didn't leave because of you. I left because of me.

even if we could agree that Halo gets old (which it doesn't in a matter of days like Destiny seems to have with some people).

I'm all for pointing out Destiny's flaws, but let's be fair, at least some of those people sunk 40 hours into the game in the first few days before getting "bored". I've taken my time, never done anything I would consider "grinding" or that I didn't find fun, and I'm at 27 hours and just reached a level 24 warlock. Maybe an hour of that was Crucible. I don't know about others, but I'm pretty sure I never put 24 hours of game play into any Halo single player campaign.

I wonder if half of what people are experiencing with Destiny is a feeling that it didn't reach its potential, even if what it reached was (to many) an entertainment level that many games have not.

I have to disagree with this. Even a terrible movie is fun to watch with friends, but that doesn't make it as good as other movies. I want a game I can enjoy when I play it alone (and my friends are mostly not interested in games anyway). And I have to agree that Destiny is not really being that game right now. It desperately needs a story with presence and characters, and more dynamic missions and level design. In other words, things need to HAPPEN. With all of Bungie's prior games, I played through the campaign alone, and enjoyed myself thoroughly. Yes, if you play it 100 times, it is less fun, but Destiny's missions have an even shorter shelf life because they are so generic.

The focus on community is interesting, but there is no reason that the only fun to be had in the game should come from interacting with people, and not from the game itself. If that's the case, something is wrong.

That said, I am not giving up yet, and I'm waiting to see how they are going to change things as time goes on. There are still good things, it's just not living near its potential so far.

And I agree with the initial post that grinding is awful. Even if all games are time wasters, I don't have the time to waste on things that are not inherently fun.

Halo after a while sucks. (Not just Halo 4 guys and gals, all of em)
Destiny after a while sucks.

What makes these games fun is who you play with.

There are many people on HBO who've said "Halo 4 sucks ass, but when I was playing with so and so, I forgot about that and it was fun, briefly."

That's how I look at Destiny.

I don't have time to sink 40 hours a week into this game to keep up. I don't have any desire to play MP unless I want that bounty.

BUT, if I've got community to play with, a place to socialize, it makes it more worthwhile.

Not interested in farming loot cave.

Not interested in chasing loot.

I am interested in the quest, the puzzle, and playing with others.

Find some friends to play with.

I'm all for pointing out Destiny's flaws, but let's be fair, at least some of those people sunk 40 hours into the game in the first few days before getting "bored".

It is indeed a lot of hours in a short timespan, I'd be exhausted.

I don't know about others, but I'm pretty sure I never put 24 hours of game play into any Halo single player campaign.

I don't usually play in huge bursts that would cause 24 hours to be filled rapidly, but I'm pretty sure I've never put less than 24 hours of play into a Halo campaign; Waypoint says that even Halo 4 has commanded 38 hours of my time.

I haven't the foggiest idea how much time I've put into Halo 1's campaign, but I'd be very surprised if it's under 1000 hours.

I wonder if half of what people are experiencing with Destiny is a feeling that it didn't reach its potential, even if what it reached was (to many) an entertainment level that many games have not.

Yes, disappointment is definitely a big factor. For a lot of people it's a combination of Destiny not being as grand as the marketing cracked it up to be, and the game not really nailing the social side; my Destiny gameplay would probably already be dropping away if I didn't have active friends on, because the game relies on coop and trying to group with people sucks. In some ways it's awkward to join people up even when they're in your friend's list.

repeatedly state that opinion over and over and over

Personally, I appreciate his posts. I didn't pre-order Destiny and wanted to wait to see what DBO (and to a lesser extent, r/DestinyTheGame) had to say about it before deciding. If these dissatisfied players only posted once about their disappointment, a lot of good discussions would never have taken place.

Before the game was released, I didn't understand why people thought Destiny was going to be so good and I even questioned if I was missing something and was seriously questioning my perception/sanity. Now that the game is out and people are posting about all the disappointing things and how frustrating it is that the game didn't even come close to all the BS Bungie spouted as part of their marketing campaign, I feel free from having to figure out what was "wrong" with my opinion. Thanks to car15 and others, I have been able to satisfactorily decide to not buy Destiny (at least, not until they have a deeply discounted version).

Lots of people in this thread seem to be sharing how happy they are that car15 leaving; this really saddens me as it's not something I expect to see on *BO. I realize this is a fansite but come on, is there no appreciation for varying viewpoints?

@car15: If it helps at all, your understandably frustrating experience has helped others like me avoid such frustrations. Thank you for putting in the time to post here.

repeatedly state that opinion over and over and over

Personally, I appreciate his posts. I didn't pre-order Destiny and wanted to wait to see what DBO (and to a lesser extent, r/DestinyTheGame) had to say about it before deciding. If these dissatisfied players only posted once about their disappointment, a lot of good discussions would never have taken place.

Before the game was released, I didn't understand why people thought Destiny was going to be so good and I even questioned if I was missing something and was seriously questioning my perception/sanity. Now that the game is out and people are posting about all the disappointing things and how frustrating it is that the game didn't even come close to all the BS Bungie spouted as part of their marketing campaign, I feel free from having to figure out what was "wrong" with my opinion. Thanks to car15 and others, I have been able to satisfactorily decide to not buy Destiny (at least, not until they have a deeply discounted version).

Lots of people in this thread seem to be sharing how happy they are that car15 leaving; this really saddens me as it's not something I expect to see on *BO. I realize this is a fansite but come on, is there no appreciation for varying viewpoints?

@car15: If it helps at all, your understandably frustrating experience has helped others like me avoid such frustrations. Thank you for putting in the time to post here.

Then there are people like me that are having an absolute blast with this game, despite the small flaws. I've had to reconcile some of my unfounded expectations with the real product Bungie delivered, sure. But man, Destiny is a game I am loving. There isn't a flaw in it that overshadows the amazing time I had beating the story missions with Avateur or tackling Crucible alone or with my clan. The first time we took down Phogoth was an exhilarating experience, and coming back to that battle in the Weekly Heroic with those freaking Wizards was another great challenge. Destiny is awesome, and I haven't even touched the Raid.

Glad you found someone that reaffirmed your prejudice, but I hope you realize that there are opposing viewpoints. Maybe when Destiny hits that lower price point you'll check it out yourself and get the chance to form a solid opinion based on your personal experiences.

Lots of people in this thread seem to be sharing how happy they are that car15 leaving; this really saddens me as it's not something I expect to see on *BO. I realize this is a fansite but come on, is there no appreciation for varying viewpoints?

DBO is made up of more than those who comment in this thread. Don't judge to silent majority based on the vocal minority.

Through the years there were stretches where I thought Cody was going to leave us but I'm so glad he didn't because of his unique view on things. He's great!

It's up to each individual whether they stay or leave. Understandably many who don't enjoy the game will probably leave and that is fine.

If you do stay though, there should be a common understanding of respect towards each other and not antagonize people with different viewpoints.

Debating and trolling can sometimes get blurred in one's mind when on the internet, but that is what the community is here for. I hope if anyone ever thinks I've lost focus in a debate on the forums, the community will call me out on it. We need accountability.

It boils down to a cold hard economic transaction because the game offers nothing more than that to engage me.

If there's no such thing as a free lunch, I can't imagine the opportunity cost car15 is accumulating in this thread.

Too many members are saying that Bungie don't owe us this or that and that we should be grateful for "free content".

It's not bonus content. It's stuff they said long ago would be part of the evolving ecosystem. Entitled kids that want everything now now now are the whiny bunch that have complained about not finding high-level gear or cry about being locked out of things that they have zero chance of completing alone.

I mean, games are supposed to be fun, and I pay to buy them. If they are not fun, and make you do bullshit before having fun, you can voice your dissatisfaction. There are tons of games that do not waste your time, and try to be fun every second. It's entirely reasonable for he, or me to stop playing until a new raid comes out when right now the game is completely boring, and from the looks of it those queen's bounties are exactly the same type of thing, just dressed up with a different name.

*Game comes out*

"It's too hard to get good gear! I can't get anything good to level up past 20! The game sucks!

*Queen's bounty comes out, rewards simple Bounties and mission with Legendary gear*

"This is the same stuff we've been doing! It's nothing new! The game sucks!"

Bungie did everything short of flat-out giving away Legendary armor, addressing a major complaint, and people STILL aren't happy.

Glad you found someone that reaffirmed your prejudice, but I hope you realize that there are opposing viewpoints. Maybe when Destiny hits that lower price point you'll check it out yourself and get the chance to form a solid opinion based on your personal experiences.

I've read the posts from people who love the game, too. One thing I've noticed, though, is that the posts praising Destiny often don't provide solid reasons for loving the game, while anti-Destiny posts have explicit reasons for disliking the game. I've seen "having a blast" more times than I can count but haven't seen a real reason why people are having a blast. Sure, the FPS mechanics are good but that alone doesn't make a game fun, in my opinion.

I have played through Destiny's campaign at a friend's house, so I'd say have solid (negative) opinion of that aspect of the game. I've been using the forums to figure out if the end-game content was as good as Bungie said it was going to be. "The game starts at level 20."

Hope you come back soon one day, and best wishes!

Hope you come back soon one day, and best wishes!

That... what am I looking at?

Internet magic ;)

ok

Glad you found someone that reaffirmed your prejudice, but I hope you realize that there are opposing viewpoints. Maybe when Destiny hits that lower price point you'll check it out yourself and get the chance to form a solid opinion based on your personal experiences.

I've read the posts from people who love the game, too. One thing I've noticed, though, is that the posts praising Destiny often don't provide solid reasons for loving the game, while anti-Destiny posts have explicit reasons for disliking the game. I've seen "having a blast" more times than I can count but haven't seen a real reason why people are having a blast. Sure, the FPS mechanics are good but that alone doesn't make a game fun, in my opinion.

The core mechanics of a game can't be responsible for what makes it fun? Isn't that precisely what OUGHT TO make it fun?

I like the lore; I like the character creation options; I like the 3 classes; I like the Warlock subclasses; I like the Tower; I like selecting bounties; I like Patrol; I like Public Events; I like my character's growth; I like tweaking my subclass and loadout to face different challenges, such as fighting in different PvE scenarios; I like tweaking my subclass and loadout because I'm going into PvP and it's time for my Warlock to go Voidwalker and Nova Bomb some Guardians; Oh now I'm a Sunsinger and I'm frozen, mid-air, while I finish off my enemy; I like going to Venus; Mars; the Moon; But I'll always love going back to Old Russia for the feels; I like fighting the Fallen; I like the Vex, probably my favorite Bungie enemy ever because of those crazy scary teleport troop advances; I liked the introduction to the Cabal, how powerful and relentless they felt; I liked getting in an Interceptor and showing the Cabal how powerful and relentless I am; I liked playing a story mission and scanning my environment, preparing for the inevitable onslaught that I know is going to happen as soon as I deploy my Ghost--better check for fallback positions, where the enemy is likely to come from, reload my weapons, --okay, let's do this; I loved the final battle of The Last Array; I loved plenty of other moments from the campaign, like the Sword of Crota or Shrine of Oryx, etc. etc. etc. There's too much that I like about Destiny to list it all. And there's still so much more of Destiny I haven't had the chance to explore--the perks of Exotic gear, the Raid, the content to come in future DLC..

In other words, I'M HAVING A BLAST! :D

It's easier to list negative things because that list is so much shorter.

I have played through Destiny's campaign at a friend's house, so I'd say have solid (negative) opinion of that aspect of the game. I've been using the forums to figure out if the end-game content was as good as Bungie said it was going to be. "The game starts at level 20."

Ah, your original post made it sound like you skipped even playing because of negative posts, which was a little alarming. Glad you had a chance to actually play.

I'm a total failure as a site maintainer - I've had a grand total of 8 hours of gameplay since the game launched. (I'm FINALLY back at home now, and hope to increase that total a little bit... but I promised someone I'd play on a different console tonight, so I'll be starting from scratch.)

You're quitting the game - and I haven't even played it yet. Amazing.

Did you ever consider that maybe subconsciously you were finding things to keep yourself busy in real life so that you wouldn't have to play Destiny because deep down you just knew that Cody was right?

Did you ever consider that maybe subconsciously you were finding things to keep yourself busy in real life so that you wouldn't have to play Destiny because deep down you just knew that Cody was right?

Heh. I nearly bought a new console so I could play this past week, even though I wasn't home.

Nearly.

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Did you ever consider that maybe subconsciously you were finding things to keep yourself busy in real life so that you wouldn't have to play Destiny because deep down you just knew that Cody was right?

I sometimes wonder if Cody talking about investment systems is what it's like when other people hear me talk about Forge.

The core mechanics of a game can't be responsible for what makes it fun? Isn't that precisely what OUGHT TO make it fun?

Necessary but not sufficient. At least for me.

Thank you for the big list of things you like; it conveys to me what you like about the game pretty well (specifically the items with "why"s). They're all good reasons to like the game but to me they don't outweigh the negatives that I've read about. You're right that the list of negatives is shorter than the list of positives, but that doesn't necessarily mean negatives are less impactful (unfortunately).

You're quitting the game - and I haven't even played it yet. Amazing.

Hey, some people are just living life in the fast lane. I just hit level 20 yesterday! ;-D

I honestly don't get the objection about the repetition. As a mostly campaign-only player, all there ever was, was repetition. Any variations you had to add yourself-- change difficulty level, change approach. The skulls gave more precise control but didn't actually add content.

Playlists, bounties, special events-- they're all just incentive to play the same bits over again, but could anybody have expected anything else? The only other choice is to lock more content down behind high requirements, and that's the OTHER thing people complain about.

I really don't see it as a question of requiring people to grind before giving them something they think they deserve.

I see it more as rewarding some people with a little extra for the repetition they were going to do anyway.

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Funny that you automatically assume it is because they aren't getting loot fast enough and not realize that the game doesn't have the content to make the grinding required any fun. Which it isn't, it is more fun and rewarding exploiting the loot cave then doing one more montonous strike, all of which use the same bad forula. I wonder what the outcry wil be when they patch the exploit out.

Also this comes from someone who used to raid in vanilla WoW and Wrath of the Lich King, so the loot and rep grind is something I have done before. Bungie implemented it poorly and just made it frustrating when you get a rare purple drop that for some reason hardly ever is purple gear. That is just bait and switch, and is poor design that they had to know would cause anger.

It's fine that you don't like Destiny.

I don't like Final Fantasy or Metal Gear Solid very much. You're not forced to play the game, or talk about the game, or anything like that. Sometimes we buy games and end up not liking them much. No problem.

If you're "leaving" as in, no longer communicating with people who have a particular investment in a video game, or video game company, it's not a huge deal. There's no reason anyone should be offended by the fact that you don't feel a strong enough connection to it to identify as a dedicated fan.

Go on and do what you enjoy doing.

This game is very strange. Its like an odd drug that doesn't get you as high as you want, but its more addictive than crack hoping that the next hit will be more potent. Id be very interested in hearing your opinion of it after a few days of play.

I finally got my Legendary Armour last night and the grind felt worth it.. kinda.

Once I play the Vault of Glass I will know if this game will be worth continuing, but currently that is all that's driving me on. Get to Level 26, beat the raid. I've no idea what I'm going to after that.... Destiny might get dull very fast I fear.

And Hey Claude! Hope you are keeping well.

I honestly don't get the objection about the repetition. As a mostly campaign-only player, all there ever was, was repetition. Any variations you had to add yourself-- change difficulty level, change approach. The skulls gave more precise control but didn't actually add content.

I think the problem is most people (including myself) are comparing Destinys single player with games like borderlands which has far far too many missions for me to even remember and such a massive world to explore.

Creating a game that feels like there should be more without giving more and instead, recycling.. I would say that is a risky move.

Funny that you automatically assume it is because they aren't getting loot fast enough and not realize that the game doesn't have the content to make the grinding required any fun. Which it isn't, it is more fun and rewarding exploiting the loot cave then doing one more montonous strike, all of which use the same bad forula. I wonder what the outcry wil be when they patch the exploit out.

I did say it was a major complaint, not THE main complaint.

I agree that Destiny's Loot system is a problem. I have eight exotics so far, and far more Legendaries than I care to count, while Sammy, who has been fighting the darkness by my side since day one, has struggled to earn gear decent enough to even join me in certain difficult missions (the game won't even let me taxi her), and the only Exotic she has is a shotgun (Universal Remote), which she doesn't like using. That's a problem. In Borderlands and Warframe, you get pickups and drops when others get them. It's equal, and everyone is happy. Destiny is a great example of Bungie dropping the ball on what works and what doesn't, in favor of a mostly-random system that can dump the lottery on the least deserving, while denying the best and most dedicated players basic loot. THAT'S an issue, yes. And for some people, the notion of doing missions over and over, regardless of how fun they are, is something that repels them from the game as a whole, because MAYBE after countless matches they'll get a purple engram, which fills them with hope, but eventually just turns into a blue cosmetic item after a slow trip to the Tower.

THAT'S a problem, yes, and no fun missions will ever make this appealing.

That was evident in today's bounties. We went after the gate lord together, and had fun with the modifiers. The final fight was brief, but intense, since we approached it with non-standard weapons... It was a change of pace, and the mission felt fresh... But then the rewards happened... I got a chest armor AND a rare Queen-branded ship. Sammy got a helmet that she had already... Her reaction was less than joyous... While we played to have fun, and it WAS fun, the game failing to reward us equally spoiled that for her. A purple ship isn't my style (I have two Rare ships, but bought a ship that reminded me of my CQB armor anyway), but I can't even gift it to her. There's no way for her to trade me her shotgun for the Devil You Know hand cannon that I got today, but don't really need since I'm perfectly happy with my Regulator.

These things are problems that hurt the experience, but if there wasn't a loot system, or if Engrams gave you correctly-colored (or better) gear, and dropped for everyone equally (even if they didn't give the same stuff and dropped far less often)... Would people have such an issue with the content of Destiny? Would the missions be as criticized for being repetitive if people could play them with modifiers at will, or with guaranteed rewards?

I play just to have fun, and to spend time with friends. When we go into the crucible, and they go 0.05 and our team loses, I don't care. I had a good time with friends, and they probably got a rare shader and 10 strange coins while I got nothing.

But I can see how all of these things are a problem for people, and rightly so. So I understand exactly how people feel. It's okay to dislike the horrible way the investment system was implemented (Cody was right), but if you play it strictly because you want to chase the carrot in front of you rather than seeing the world beyond, then you're missing out on a whole lot more than some fancy loot...

Also this comes from someone who used to raid in vanilla WoW and Wrath of the Lich King, so the loot and rep grind is something I have done before. Bungie implemented it poorly and just made it frustrating when you get a rare purple drop that for some reason hardly ever is purple gear. That is just bait and switch, and is poor design that they had to know would cause anger.

I agree. See above.

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You're quitting the game - and I haven't even played it yet. Amazing.

Hey, some people are just living life in the fast lane. I just hit level 20 yesterday! ;-D

Hit 20 the day after release, and I'm still having fun and new experiences with it. Go figure...

I honestly don't get the objection about the repetition. As a mostly campaign-only player, all there ever was, was repetition. Any variations you had to add yourself-- change difficulty level, change approach. The skulls gave more precise control but didn't actually add content.

Investment system blinders aside, I think I can see the complaints about repetition:

Halo=

(PoA) Corridor shooter. Familiar, but this feels good. Limited gear, escape mission. Neat.

(Halo) Open space banshee fight, defense mission with allies, driving mission, rescues and holdouts. Sniper rifle and Jackals introduced. Neat.

(T&R) Stealthy sniper mission, assault on deployed enemies, defense mission with allies, infiltration rescue, VIP escape. Hunters and Camo Elites introduced. Neat.

(SC) Beach assault. Driving mission with open world freedom, varied Hunter encounters. Infil/exfil mission. Rocket Launcher and Gold sword Elite introduced. Neat.

(AotCR) Narrow corridors leading into open rooms, multi-tiered bridge fight with mini-boss battle gold elite, wraith fight, driving mission, Tank-optional mission, possible Banshee mission, narrow corridors leading into open rooms, twin Bridge fight, assault up and into Control Room. Tank, Ghost, Wraith, and usable Banshees introduced. Neat.

(343GS) Mysterious infiltration mission with low-tier enemies, empty rooms... The flood... Escape mission, then escape with allies. Holdout with new allies. Shotgun, the Flood, sentinels, 343 GS introduced. Neat.

(Library) Long corridor mission against flood, long corridor mission against flood with Sentinel allies, holdout against flood, long corridor mission against flood. Overshield and Carrier flood introduced. Neat(?).

(TB) Fight against Sentinels, three-way fight against Covenant and sentinels. Sniper-optional push against Covenant. Rocket-optional fight against wraith, banshee flying, infiltration missions with low-shield-initiated fights against flood/sentinels, driving mission, narrow corridors leading into open rooms with flood/Covenant. Banshee missions, On-foot mission against flood and Covenant across large open spaces, Attack on Wraith and covenant fighting flood, fighting Sentinels with Banshee. Sentinels, fuel rod Grunts, three-way fights introduced. Neat.

(Keyes) Narrow corridor flood fight. Dark, narrow canyon three-way fights, Hunter fight, infil/exfil mission among three-way fights in narrow corridors. Nothing new, but familiar elements combined in new ways. Neat.

(The Maw) Infiltration against flood and Sentinels. Narrow corridor battle against Hunters and Spec Ops covenant. Narrow corridor three-way fights, four-stage open-room objective mission with rockets amid three-way fight, elevator battle against Spec Ops Elites, timed driving mission, on-foot race to escape. Grenade-throwing Spec Ops Elites and Camo flood introduced. Neat.

======

Halo had variety, whereas Destiny has a huge chunk of its missions being "infiltration mission, holdout against enemy waves, repeat", or "infiltration mission, stationary boss fight, repeat" as their main objectives. Not all missions are like this, though. Charging the eye of the gate lord was different, and provided a variety of objectives and scenarios, and that was the Daily story yesterday. Had it had more modifiers, that mission alone would be fun to replay over and over. Same goes for many other missions in Destiny. Can Bungie fix this by changing Boss behaviors or objectives? Definitely.

What if a modifier allowed the Nexus to slowly move his shield to cover its weak spot, and your team had to either split up or move to a new spot to get a momentary advantage?

What if someone on your team had to manually pry a door open instead of letting Ghost scan a keypad, and the other teammate(s) had to protect that person? Titans could be able to pry the door open faster, so it would add value to their class, but maybe a Blade Dancer could use their Arc Blade to power a security system, shutting some doors to reduce the number of enemies while taking longer than the other classes to get the door open...

What if you did a mission where enemies were immune to all but specific elements, yet dropped only special/heavy ammo?

Bungie can definitely fix the existing missions with modifications, but denying people the freedom to add skulls (or simply stacking more with each of the many difficulty selections, while improving the rewards or odds of reward) is an issue that can be fixed.

Repetition is inherent to campaign-only games, but even within, a lot of variety can usually be found, and when 60% of Destiny's missions look like the two examples above... Then that's a different type of repetition... But not something that's unfixable.

Playlists, bounties, special events-- they're all just incentive to play the same bits over again, but could anybody have expected anything else? The only other choice is to lock more content down behind high requirements, and that's the OTHER thing people complain about.

I really don't see it as a question of requiring people to grind before giving them something they think they deserve.

I see it more as rewarding some people with a little extra for the repetition they were going to do anyway.

The problem is entitlement. People want the best gear/weapons as soon as possible, rather than being content with what they have. It's an inherent problem in any loot game, where stats and perks ultimately mean more than individuality or playstyle.

I honestly don't get the objection about the repetition. As a mostly campaign-only player, all there ever was, was repetition. Any variations you had to add yourself-- change difficulty level, change approach. The skulls gave more precise control but didn't actually add content.

Investment system blinders aside, I think I can see the complaints about repetition:

Halo=

[snip breakdown of levels of Halo]

This is all accurate, but I'm not so much talking about the repetition of activity from level to level or mission to mission as I am over the lifetime of a title.

Regardless of how much levels vary in their activities over a title, once you've played each level at every difficulty setting available, you've seen most of what there is to see. The rest is repetition and slight variation (your actions, skulls, random happenstance).

Either way, I am having fun.

======

Halo had variety, whereas Destiny has a huge chunk of its missions being "infiltration mission, holdout against enemy waves, repeat", or "infiltration mission, stationary boss fight, repeat" as their main objectives. Not all missions are like this, though. Charging the eye of the gate lord was different, and provided a variety of objectives and scenarios, and that was the Daily story yesterday. Had it had more modifiers, that mission alone would be fun to replay over and over. Same goes for many other missions in Destiny. Can Bungie fix this by changing Boss behaviors or objectives? Definitely.

While Halo levels do vary in their approaches for set pieces, there are a lot of encounters around the edges of those that are the same, not just within the levels, but across all the levels. (Find a group of Grunts/Elites/Jackals, shoot them, rinse, and repeat.)

What I do see is that the factional distinctions are making encounters less varied within themselves than they were in Halo. I was gratified to see the Cabal Phalanx units that bring back the shield mechanics we're used to from Jackals... but these ONLY appear on Mars and against Cabal groups, so that mechanic is never mixed with some of the others that you only see from Fallen or Hive.

I'm not sure that's a big deal, but I did notice it.

By the time you've hit the level cap, done each story mission and strike with the available modifiers, you've probably spent about the same amount of time as you would have exhausting the campaign content of the average Halo title, and you're down to the same thing: what can you do different to maintain interest? Destiny I think has a much bigger potential upside here than Halo did, but I'm wondering if they possible changes are set (like the story) to a very slow drip feed, or whether we have, indeed, seen it all.

What if a modifier allowed the Nexus to slowly move his shield to cover its weak spot, and your team had to either split up or move to a new spot to get a momentary advantage?

I don't know what that is, but I suppose I will soon...

What if someone on your team had to manually pry a door open instead of letting Ghost scan a keypad, and the other teammate(s) had to protect that person? Titans could be able to pry the door open faster, so it would add value to their class, but maybe a Blade Dancer could use their Arc Blade to power a security system, shutting some doors to reduce the number of enemies while taking longer than the other classes to get the door open...

Possibly for strike/raid but I think Bungie still wants story missions to be doable in solo, which means any class should be able to do any required action without penalty.

What if you did a mission where enemies were immune to all but specific elements, yet dropped only special/heavy ammo?

Perhaps the real question here is-- instead of the traditional custom game mode, what if the community was able to submit and then Bungie was able to approve, new bounties that altered the game's behavior in this way?

We know drops can be altered by inventory items, and rewards can be altered by bounties, and bounties are given by factions-- what if they could also be given by clans, for instance?

I really don't see it as a question of requiring people to grind before giving them something they think they deserve.

I see it more as rewarding some people with a little extra for the repetition they were going to do anyway.

The problem is entitlement. People want the best gear/weapons as soon as possible, rather than being content with what they have. It's an inherent problem in any loot game, where stats and perks ultimately mean more than individuality or playstyle.

The faster anyone is able to get the best gear, the sooner everyone will have them and everyone looks the same. So we're back to the Master Chief in mjolnir armor, it just takes you the whole game to get there.

I guess I don't get it. You can get a very similar effect-- if what you're after is power fantasy fulfillment-- by not adding modifiers and just running roughshod over low-leveled enemies. Oh well.

I honestly don't get the objection about the repetition. As a mostly campaign-only player, all there ever was, was repetition. Any variations you had to add yourself-- change difficulty level, change approach. The skulls gave more precise control but didn't actually add content.

I think the problem is most people (including myself) are comparing Destinys single player with games like borderlands which has far far too many missions for me to even remember and such a massive world to explore.

I can see the comparison, but to be honest, while I'm enjoying Destiny, I loathed Borderlands. I call it the worst game I ever finished.

Everything the worst critics of Destiny are saying about it now, are how I felt about Borderlands. The core mechanic hooked me well enough to make me continue playing until the end, always looking forward to more, and ultimately it was a huge letdown. I didn't really like its style, its sense of humor, the story, or... anything about it. For me, it was the grindfest others say Destiny is.

A compromise that might help things is if they allowed trades of random drops between fire team members upon their return to the Tower. The trade window would close when you leave for a new activity. This would also add incentives to cooperative play.

I haven't had loot lust yet. I'm good about not desiring things that are more than I can afford. At some point though, I'll probably decide exactly how I want my guardian to look and there'll be some piece that is just out of reach, and I'll be frustrated.

I couldn't get into to it. You just made me feel better.

I think the overall point behind "there's so much repetition" is not about having to go back and repeat the content, but that each mission is so very similar to every other mission. There's very little variety from story mission to story mission, compared to Halo where each mission had its own flavor. NOW, compound this problem with the going back and repeating story missions at higher levels. Repeating the repetitious...that's a lot to ask.

This is all accurate, but I'm not so much talking about the repetition of activity from level to level or mission to mission as I am over the lifetime of a title.

Which I was also trying to point out, but probably not very clearly.

Regardless of how much levels vary in their activities over a title, once you've played each level at every difficulty setting available, you've seen most of what there is to see. The rest is repetition and slight variation (your actions, skulls, random happenstance).

Yeah, but think about what variety still remained in each level, which had features to make it distinct:

Assault on the Control Room:

Approach with AR, pistol, Plasma Pistol, or Needler?
Will you take the Warthog, Tank, Ghost, or go on Foot?
Will you try to sneak the Banshee early on?
Will you go for the Rockets, Sniper, both, or none? If co-op, who gets what?
If playing Co-op, who will drive the tank? Who will gun on the Warthog? Who will fly the Banshee?
Fight the Wraiths, or avoid them?
Go through the bottom of the bridge, or through the enemies?
Steal the Banshee, ghost, or continue on foot?
Sneak the Banshee into the cutscene?

In Destiny, it's much more limited, because the levels don't have that variety of options with how to appoach situations, not do they have a variety of different situations to approach.

Sepiks Prime:

Hide on top, in the back, or by the entrance? (Applies to most objectives)
Use Full-auto, burst, single shot, or sidearm? Does it matter? (Applies to most encounters.)
No tough choice regarding special weapon, because you likely have one of each.
Boss battle. Hide in right side, left side, or back while you slowly whittle down enemy health? (applies to most boss battles)

The problem with games these days is that the more stuff they have, and the more they get polished, the more devs make us play the way THEY want us to play. Freedom is lost. I was having a conversation with someone regarding this issue. The more we get, the less choice we have, because now situations have to accommodate what we might have, rather than us developing a strategy for what is to come, or being able to think with all of the tools at our disposal (which includes exploits and outside-the-box thinking, such as stealing the Banshee early in AotCR...

One game that brought player freedom back was Wolfenstein: The New Order, oddly enough. You could approach the same scenario a number of ways, with two timelines adding further variety to some encounters. Odd that a game born of mindless shooting evolved to have more depth than most modern shooters.

Either way, I am having fun.

As am I. I see Destiny through the eyes of someone who saw what Warframe was, and what it has become, so I know how much the same scenarios can evolve and change to produce a game with longevity.

======

While Halo levels do vary in their approaches for set pieces, there are a lot of encounters around the edges of those that are the same, not just within the levels, but across all the levels. (Find a group of Grunts/Elites/Jackals, shoot them, rinse, and repeat.)

Yeah, and that's where the age-old "30 Seconds of Fun" was born. It's the scame scenario being presented over and over, but with enough variety that it still feels fun and fresh every time (hopefully). Attacking an Elite with a plasma rifle is different from attacking him with a Needler, or a Pistol, or a Tank, or a Banshee, etc. It's still the same Elite, but there is variety within the same Elite. What if the Elite is also on a platform above you? What if he has a vehicle? What if he is facing away from you, unaware of you?

Now in Destiny, think of a Fallen captain. Because the odds of a player having every element in their arsenal are high, enemies can now have shields that are extemely resistant to all but one specific element. In this instance, it's arc damage. The player has been given the illusion of preparedness, because he just so happens to have some arc weapons on him. The shield is now pooped, so what's the best tool to finish the Captain? It doesn't matter, they're all pretty much the same, and you have a whole slew of them.

What if the captain is in a vehicle? ... Except, at what point in the story do you ever encounter enemies using vehicles? One single encounter on the Moon is all that I can recall, and like the Patrol Pikes, they were piloted by weak Dregs. Interceptors never get used, so the inclusion of vehicles seems to be an afterthought. There is no "tank level", it's mostly just using vehicles as a travel tool.

What I do see is that the factional distinctions are making encounters less varied within themselves than they were in Halo. I was gratified to see the Cabal Phalanx units that bring back the shield mechanics we're used to from Jackals... but these ONLY appear on Mars and against Cabal groups, so that mechanic is never mixed with some of the others that you only see from Fallen or Hive.

I'm not sure that's a big deal, but I did notice it.

I noticed that too, as that's another thing that Warframe addressed in-universe with the Void missions, where you fight a mix of all three factions across a number of objectives in a unique setting.

Destiny could actually do this at some point. What if the Cabal ally themselves with the Fallen? The Cabal are essentially half of the Covenant (Jackals, Brutes, Skirmishers, and Hunters), with the Fallen being the other half (Grunts and Elites). Fallen have no heavy hitters, nor do they have any aerial troops (something noticeably missing from the entire game).

By the time you've hit the level cap, done each story mission and strike with the available modifiers, you've probably spent about the same amount of time as you would have exhausting the campaign content of the average Halo title, and you're down to the same thing: what can you do different to maintain interest? Destiny I think has a much bigger potential upside here than Halo did, but I'm wondering if they possible changes are set (like the story) to a very slow drip feed, or whether we have, indeed, seen it all.

Like I said. Early on, Warframe reeked of wasted Potential. It was a Mass Effect 3 MP clone that showed promise, but little else, and I fully expected it to die a quiet death. But every single update had patch notes longer than the credits to an Assassin's Creed game, and now it's a completely different game. Just today, update 14.5 has released for consoles, and it completely reworks one of the worlds (the moon Eris), while adding a ton of new content and changes. I'd argue that it's the best games out there, and Bungie should definitely look to it for inspiration, but I doubt that Destiny itself will stagnate. Ten years worth of planned content shows ambition, and if Warframe's one-year transformation is anything to go by... I'm very optimistic.

Possibly for strike/raid but I think Bungie still wants story missions to be doable in solo, which means any class should be able to do any required action without penalty.

I meant strictly for co-op. Would add a nice twist. It could even be a modifier skull.

Perhaps the real question here is-- instead of the traditional custom game mode, what if the community was able to submit and then Bungie was able to approve, new bounties that altered the game's behavior in this way?

Brilliant.

We know drops can be altered by inventory items, and rewards can be altered by bounties, and bounties are given by factions-- what if they could also be given by clans, for instance?

Clans would need a resource pool. Players could donate resources/glimmer to a clan, which the Treasurers could use to enter challenges and such. There's a whole ecosystem out there waiting to appeal to people who like a different approach.

The faster anyone is able to get the best gear, the sooner everyone will have them and everyone looks the same. So we're back to the Master Chief in mjolnir armor, it just takes you the whole game to get there.

Which is exactly the reason that I like the slower rate of loot drops, although the stream of Exotics and Legendaries that I've gotten make it pretty pointless to keep armors and weapons with inferior stats. If only Bungie had learned from Monster Hunter about applying stats to gear instead of having gear with stats... I'd be happy with a stat pack that we could apply to an armor we like, destroying the second armor pack in the process. That way, people could buy armors that they liked (The PS4 exclusive helmet looks awesome, and I'd wear it if I could apply my Legendary helmet's stats to it), and there wouldn't be ten thousand hunters with the generic-looking Lucky Raspberry running about.

I guess I don't get it. You can get a very similar effect-- if what you're after is power fantasy fulfillment-- by not adding modifiers and just running roughshod over low-leveled enemies. Oh well.

It's the desire to be better than others, not just your enemies. Gear envy, and all that, as Cody said. If you couldn't tell how good a person's gear was at a glance, maybe people wouldn't be so quick race for better gear, and maybe they wouldn't dump their level 1 helmet if they knew that eventually they could make it as good as a Legendary... Heck the Queen's Legendary helmet is visually identical to the level 1 helmets in all but paint, so that's already a thing in-game..

(Library) Long corridor mission against flood, long corridor mission against flood with Sentinel allies, holdout against flood, long corridor mission against flood. Overshield and Carrier flood introduced. Neat(?).

Overshield was introduced on POA, in the covenant boarding craft.

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(Library) Long corridor mission against flood, long corridor mission against flood with Sentinel allies, holdout against flood, long corridor mission against flood. Overshield and Carrier flood introduced. Neat(?).

Overshield was introduced on POA, in the covenant boarding craft.

And was also in Silent Cartographer's bottom floor... Sorry, I was working off of distant memory and a sleepless night. But yeah, it was most prevalent in PoA. You'd think I'd remember that.

Bait and switch is the perfect way to describe the Legedary Engrams. Well said.

I especially liked the points you made by comparing Warframe and Destiny. When Destiny get's to patch 14.5, what will it look like? Modern WoW is a completely different game than vanilla WoW.

The Raid is the most rewarding gaming experience I've had since jumping on my first Goomba in Super Mario for NES. But, like you, I'm not sure what to do afterward - aside from the dailies and weeklies. I find myself in The Crucible a lot. I'm thinking about rolling a new class, too.

The Queen's Wrath is...meh. New faction, same mechanic, and the gear is similar to what you can buy from other faction vendors at any time. We still have plenty of time left, but I was hoping it would provide some new missions to explain the Reef situation we entered into during the story.

I am; however, really looking forward to The Iron Banner.

(Halo) Open space banshee fight, defense mission with allies, driving mission, rescues and holdouts. Sniper rifle and Jackals introduced. Neat.

And needler. :D

(TB) Fight against Sentinels, three-way fight against Covenant and sentinels. Sniper-optional push against Covenant. Rocket-optional fight against wraith, banshee flying, infiltration missions with low-shield-initiated fights against flood/sentinels, driving mission, narrow corridors leading into open rooms with flood/Covenant. Banshee missions, On-foot mission against flood and Covenant across large open spaces, Attack on Wraith and covenant fighting flood, fighting Sentinels with Banshee. Sentinels, fuel rod Grunts, three-way fights introduced. Neat.

Three-way fights are introduced on 343 Guilty Spark.

(The Maw) Infiltration against flood and Sentinels. Narrow corridor battle against Hunters and Spec Ops covenant. Narrow corridor three-way fights, four-stage open-room objective mission with rockets amid three-way fight, elevator battle against Spec Ops Elites, timed driving mission, on-foot race to escape. Grenade-throwing Spec Ops Elites and Camo flood introduced. Neat.

Spec-ops elites are introduced previously on Keyes.

Also, The Maw includes a FOUR-way fight right before the armory and engine room.

//==========================

Simply what the levels include, though, isn't really a good description of the relevant difference. It's more about the high-level structure. Almost every level in Destiny is a variation on an "upbeat Kizingo Boulevard" structure. When discussing what Destiny level to play, the answer in my head is always roughly "I don't care," because every one of them is a slightly different retelling of the same story. I don't usually choose Halo levels by which one happens to include one or two choice encounters, I choose them based on what overall experience I'm looking for. Destiny (roughly) only offers one overall experience. It's a good experience, and an easy one to hop into without funky reservations, but it has two issues: the game doesn't have the same dynamic range that Bungie's previous games do, and it cannot combine these missions effectively in constructing an overall narrative.

The problem is entitlement. People want the best gear/weapons as soon as possible, rather than being content with what they have. It's an inherent problem in any loot game, where stats and perks ultimately mean more than individuality or playstyle.

The problem is not entitlement.

The problem is that gear should be a reward for playing well, but the RNG system prevents that from manifesting in the game.

It's simply not rewarding to play for hours in the Crucible, get the most kills on your team in every match, and watch them get better gear than you anyway.

Please don't drag "entitlement" into this. I feel like you're going to tell me to stay off your lawn or stop listening to the rap music. It's a video game, not real life. Ideally, it should reward you for doing well.

If character progression is going to be in this game, it should be done well. Using "entitlement" as an excuse for Bungie's failed investment system is disingenuous. I don't want to play a game that doesn't reward me for doing well when:
a) That's supposed to be one of the main focuses of the game, and
b) The game itself isn't very engaging anyway.

This game is very strange. Its like an odd drug that doesn't get you as high as you want, but its more addictive than crack hoping that the next hit will be more potent. Id be very interested in hearing your opinion of it after a few days of play.

Agreed 100%. It's a consequence of the game's failed potential. The underlying gunplay is fun, the graphics and art style are sublime, the music is incredible, the lore is interesting (but poorly implemented)... there are many elements of a great game here. They just never come together to actually make that game.

(Library) Long corridor mission against flood, long corridor mission against flood with Sentinel allies, holdout against flood, long corridor mission against flood. Overshield and Carrier flood introduced. Neat(?).

Overshield was introduced on POA, in the covenant boarding craft.

For some of us, the Overshield was introduced on Wizard :-p

Aren't you supposed to be gone? You remind me of those girls who say "I'm deleting my facebook" then spend the next day receiving attention from people, while never going through with what they say. Deer Lord...

Read the thread.

But anyway, I love how it's totally acceptable to write off people who dislike the RNG system as "entitled".

Edit: Dear Lord. Dear. Otherwise you are an idol-worshipping heathen.

Read the thread.

Nah, I'm cool. There always needs to be "that one kid" in every community, I suppose.

But anyway, I love how it's totally acceptable to write off people who dislike the RNG system as "entitled".

Getting a treat every time you perform well is how dogs are trained to do tricks. RNG is a random benefit of doing normal actions and completing missions that you should already be enjoying. If you don't enjoy a mission without expecting things just for doing it, then you're no longer playing the game for fun, so obviously you're not going to have fun. Destiny's not going to change just to match your view of what it should be. Don't like that? Don't play it. But stop whining about it. Debate and dissent is one thing, but complaining, and then telling me "I don't do the things you say I do, except for when I do" doesn't really give you credibility here.

But yeah, every community needs "that one kid", and so here we are.

Deer Lord...

- No text -

I really enjoy your baseless presumption that I am a "kid".

And who decreed from on high that I "should" already be enjoying anything about this game? Why "should" I be enjoying lazy repetitive missions? The game has to earn the player's enjoyment on its own merits.

However, I have stopped playing, as I explained in the OP. That doesn't mean I don't want Destiny to change or improve. If it gets better, who knows, maybe I'll come back.

I noted in the OP that half of this forum is willing to criticize the game and the other half stifles debate at every turn. You are firmly in the latter category.

If you are enjoying the game, then that's great. Keep enjoying it. I'm happy that you like it.

But that has no bearing on my enjoyment of the game or on my privilege to comment here. If you don't like it, TOO BAD. If you think I'm simply "whining", TOO BAD. Put up with it. You come off like a bitter old man constantly telling me to stop whining and referring to me as a "kid". I'm 28 years old. Maybe that makes me a kid relative to the centuries of wisdom you've evidently accumulated, but it's more than a little condescending.

I feel like an idiot for stepping into this. Whatever.

I really enjoy your baseless presumption that I am a "kid".

Korny's "that one kid" comment was a metaphor, a remark about your behaviour. It was not a guess at your age.

the other half stifles debate at every turn

Sort of. That half doesn't like things being constantly repeated, and I sort of agree with them, although I have to admit it sometimes generates worthwhile discussion, even in the midst of this firestorm.

What Pete said.

There is no grind.

It's Halo with better co-op netcode and more characters with more to say and less plot (But the story is pretty much the same but with a high fantasy focus. Screw around for a bit then destroy the ultimate evil)

Also, better skulls.

The investment system is one of the best I have used. It's not wasting my time. It gives me gear, very slowly at a guaranteed minimum rate with some extras that actually means something to me and requires me to reward that luck with work. None of it is so crazy that it full on breaks the Halo (more than the ultimate attacks I guess), but the most subtle of perks makes all the difference in the Crucible and harder PvP missions. I can feel the change in that legendary Handcannon. I will use it for days or weeks. If a slightly better one dropped tomorrow it would be Diablo and that game is not for me or many others.

The investment system seems hit or miss for people, but it keeps hitting for me... I wish I could gift some of its rewards, to balance it out for others (I'd have no problem doing some of the exotic Bounties for others, simply because I have fun doing them. Thanks to PS4's upcoming Share Play, I might be able to do just that)...

Is playing Halo Legendary for the 8th time a Grind? No. I've put that equivalent in hours into this game already. It already paid for half itself in the Alpha/Beta. Having loot dosn't make it a grind. Being a crappy game makes it a grind. If you think the Halo gunplay mixed with Dota ultimate abilities sucks, then you will hate it and the loot you are sad you didn't get wont make the game more fun.

The Burn modifiers make any mission much more fun, even....

It's also Ok to think the game sucks. Nobody wants anyone to shut up. Bungie wants criticism to make it better. But complain about parts of the game that are actually well thought out and progressive compared to it's contemporaries sucks.

It's subjective, for the most part, with the loot system being a huge division point, but constructive criticism should never be stifled. Incessant whining, on the other hand...

Diablo III has one guaranteed Legendary an hour. I suggest you check it out. If they did that in Destiny I would be really annoyed. Special drops that drop every hour are not special.

If everyone has a special armor, it's no longer special. See: Lucky Raspberry.

I don't think that Destiny is gods gift, but I haven't spent 15 days straight with a game ever. And it's not because I want to collect stuff, it's because I want to shoot stuff with others and get the odd random reward whilst working towards achievable ones. It may not be, minute for minute, as white knuckle awesome as a better Halo. But it's closer than most shooters and there is a lot more of it with a lot more variables.

I was extremely critical of numerous aspects of Destiny in this very thread, and yet I still have a ton of fun with it, because rewards and loot aren't why I play this game. It's a blast to play, and a solid co-op game (Now if it only allowed teams of four).
I don't see myself getting tired of it for a good long while, assuming the DLC expands significantly on the content.

The problem is entitlement. People want the best gear/weapons as soon as possible, rather than being content with what they have. It's an inherent problem in any loot game, where stats and perks ultimately mean more than individuality or playstyle.

The problem is not entitlement.

The problem is that gear should be a reward for playing well, but the RNG system prevents that from manifesting in the game.

It's simply not rewarding to play for hours in the Crucible, get the most kills on your team in every match, and watch them get better gear than you anyway.

Please don't drag "entitlement" into this. I feel like you're going to tell me to stay off your lawn or stop listening to the rap music. It's a video game, not real life. Ideally, it should reward you for doing well.

If character progression is going to be in this game, it should be done well. Using "entitlement" as an excuse for Bungie's failed investment system is disingenuous. I don't want to play a game that doesn't reward me for doing well when:
a) That's supposed to be one of the main focuses of the game, and
b) The game itself isn't very engaging anyway.

I'm no expert on the investment system (I just haven't given it close attention--plus, I'm only a 20), but haven't several people already established that the best way to get what you want in the game is to buy it? And given that anything you get can be converted to a kind of currency, doesn't anything you get move you closer to the purchase you want to make?

That also raises the question, doesn't a lot of anger over the RNG really come from the availability bias at work? You see someone else get something, and you magnify the significance of that, and perceive that they are getting more than you over time when in reality, that's not even possible.

I'm not sure what you mean by that last bit. It's not possible?

I was extremely critical of numerous aspects of Destiny in this very thread, and yet I still have a ton of fun with it, because rewards and loot aren't why I play this game. It's a blast to play, and a solid co-op game (Now if it only allowed teams of four).
I don't see myself getting tired of it for a good long while, assuming the DLC expands significantly on the content.

It's shooting mans perfected. Everything else is just gravy.

I'm not sure what you mean by that last bit. It's not possible?

Humans are pre-disposed to spot patterns. These powers are so great they will see patterns even where none exist.

And/or they will extrapolate from too few samples that a truly random system is somehow biased against them, personally.

I'm not sure what you mean by that last bit. It's not possible?

If you both play the same scenario 1000 times, you'd both end up with the close to the same value in loot drops because you both have the same odds. What I'm not certain of is how much performance actually factors in. I would hope it does, but it still may be subtle enough to where you don't perceive that you getting better loot over time than a lesser performer, when actually you are.

Well, I'm not sure what others are saying about the RNG system. I certainly don't think it's biased against anyone. It's random. How can it be biased?

The problem is that some players have had really crappy luck with it and still haven't earned much of anything valuable in spite of their accomplishments. That's not a rewarding game mechanic.

Well, I'm not sure what others are saying about the RNG system. I certainly don't think it's biased against anyone. It's random. How can it be biased?

The problem is that some players have had really crappy luck with it and still haven't earned much of anything valuable in spite of their accomplishments. That's not a rewarding game mechanic.

I don't know. Can't the problem be that people have unrealistic expectations of an RNG?

If I expect my car to fly and it doesn't, does that make it a crappy car, Car?

I think the problem is more than people did not anticipate an RNG system being part of this game in the first place.

Well, I'm not sure what others are saying about the RNG system. I certainly don't think it's biased against anyone. It's random. How can it be biased?

The problem is that some players have had really crappy luck with it and still haven't earned much of anything valuable in spite of their accomplishments. That's not a rewarding game mechanic.

http://youtu.be/meiU6TxysCg?t=1m18s

- No text -

I acknowledge that being able to see what other people have received impacts your perception of what you received. That doesn't negate my point.

A compromise that might help things is if they allowed trades of random drops between fire team members upon their return to the Tower. The trade window would close when you leave for a new activity. This would also add incentives to cooperative play.

O HAIL NO. Diablo III got rid of that (well, the auction house) for a reason... though they also modified the loot drops to compensate.

-- Steve thinks the big problem with Destiny's loot system is its opacity; often there's no way to tell what you got until afterward, and there are many miscues. (Particularly with Legendary Engrams.)

A compromise that might help things is if they allowed trades of random drops between fire team members upon their return to the Tower. The trade window would close when you leave for a new activity. This would also add incentives to cooperative play.

O HAIL NO. Diablo III got rid of that (well, the auction house) for a reason... though they also modified the loot drops to compensate.

-- Steve thinks the big problem with Destiny's loot system is its opacity; often there's no way to tell what you got until afterward, and there are many miscues. (Particularly with Legendary Engrams.)

Well, good. This is all new to me, so I'm thinking of solutions without having a lot of experience with similar games. You did catch the part about it being a limited window, though, right?

Well, good. This is all new to me, so I'm thinking of solutions without having a lot of experience with similar games. You did catch the part about it being a limited window, though, right?

I didn't consider it that closely, I confess, having been horrified by tales of folks farming/gaming the D3 auction house and thereby breaking the game's economy.

I think keeping everyone's loot separate is actually the right decision; keeps the munchkinism down, nearly eliminates the "Chinese gold farm" problem, lets Bungie fix game economy problems without huge disruptions. The problem (IMO) is how the end-game focuses on loot but the loot system offers so many false cues that lead to disappointment.

-- Steve'd be much happier if Engrams always decoded to their respective rarities*, even if that meant reducing the drop rate for Legendaries.

* Or to upgrade materials of comparable value; doesn't always have to be weapons or armour.

Well, since you can't be arsed to actually read the conversation you're contributing to...

This is a thread about why I'm leaving Destiny.

Destiny.

The video game.

Nowhere does it say that I am leaving the forums.

Anything I said in the loot cave thread was said in a state of profound loss of coolness and should be taken as hyperbole. Which is also something I addressed in the thread that you can't be arsed to actually read.

Bro it's totally cool you don't like the game - you are 100% entitled to your opinion...

But...

Really with all the melodrama?

http://carnage.bungie.org/haloforum/halo.forum.pl

I'm not sure what you mean by that last bit. It's not possible?

If you both play the same scenario 1000 times, you'd both end up with the close to the same value in loot drops because you both have the same odds.

You're wrong here in saying it is impossible that they won't get a similar outcome. The word you're looking for is "improbable", which is relevant as some players are stuck in improbable situations relative to another player. Compounding this would be if higher level characters get better random loot past level 20, as that would be a positive feedback loop that would tend to increase the distance between the characters.

Edit: Also, it isn't that improbable as characters would most likely (I can only make conjecture) tend to diverge earlier, when it is not that improbable that there would still be significant difference.

I'm not sure what you mean by that last bit. It's not possible?

If you both play the same scenario 1000 times, you'd both end up with the close to the same value in loot drops because you both have the same odds.

You're wrong here in saying it is impossible that they won't get a similar outcome. The word you're looking for is "improbable", which is relevant as some players are stuck in improbable situations relative to another player. Compounding this would be if higher level characters get better random loot past level 20, as that would be a positive feedback loop that would tend to increase the distance between the characters.

Edit: Also, it isn't that improbable as characters would most likely (I can only make conjecture) tend to diverge earlier, when it is not that improbable that there would still be significant difference.

You're right. I used the wrong word. What I don't know is just how random everything is, but my point is that to the degree that they are random, loot drops can be perceived to be more unfair than they are.

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Well, since you can't be arsed to actually read the conversation you're contributing to...

This is a thread about why I'm leaving Destiny.

Destiny.

The video game.

Nowhere does it say that I am leaving the forums.

I understand his confusion. I think the common phrase is "I'm quitting," as in I'm quitting Destiny. I think when you title a post: "Why I'm leaving", the assumption is that you're leaving where you are, which is here. That assumption was evident in many of the replies you got. There's a gbcw tradition, and your post fell right in line with it, including the requisite lead-up of potshots at the community at large, and so we dutifully said our goodbyes and so longs, fully expecting not to see you for a week or more. Alas, you've challenged our expectations. :)

I'm glad you're still around, mind you. I'm going to assume that you like us more than you say even though you don't like Destiny.

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.