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There are stories… (Destiny)

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, September 26, 2014, 14:52 (3505 days ago)
edited by Cody Miller, Friday, September 26, 2014, 14:59

There are rumors surfacing. You obviously cannot believe everything you read on the internet, but here is the current explanation for why the story sucks. I'm not saying it's true, but is not inconsistent with facts I know.

1. In 2013 Destiny's story was different, and revolved around the darkness having been spawned from the traveler itself. The speakers manipulated the people to hide this fact. You essentially end up fighting the traveler.

2. Activision wanted to preserve the traveler as an aspirational image for marketing iconography, and this didn't jive with the story.

3. Story was revamped.

I'd love it if someone from Bungie could flat out deny this. If true, it's very sad that your publisher has that kind of power over you. I personally think it is a stretch, but I would rather believe this than believe Bungie is simply incompetent.

Angry Joe talks a bit about it in his post review discussion.

Fact, or fiction?

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There are stories…

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Friday, September 26, 2014, 15:03 (3505 days ago) @ Cody Miller

It'd make a lot of sense, but Bungie has banged on the "hopeful, upbeat story" key for far longer than that, no?

What I get from Destiny, the game itself, is pretty much what I get from Transformers 2 or Clash of Titans: very rash editing and lots of compromises allied with parallel development of different scenes. I.e. there were many things done, but not things that had much link between them by the time some higher-up decided to just go ahead and launch. As such, a lot had to be cut or revised without enough time to do the job right.

All, of course, just an opinion.

There are stories…

by Earendil, Friday, September 26, 2014, 15:17 (3505 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Not that I would want iconography to get in the way of a good story, but... They would have to have come up with a new iconography, something that is the image of what we are about, what we try and protect, what our goal in the universe is. The image of the Traveler over the city is an amazing and memorable image, and to twist that into a panoptic structure would destroy any iconography that was built. That is not to say that iconography is about advertisement, it is used there, but it's also powerful for story telling. Having a simple icon that reminds you of a people, a building, or an event is a powerful thing. Think of the Swastica, the Rod of Acslepius, or the Cross. These are symbols that bring about stories, emotions, feeling of good, evil, and conflict.

That said, they can make the Traveler "Not the good guy" without making him "The bad guy". Just pull a Babylon 5 style philosophical conclusion. I've actually been thinking that Applying that sort of conclusion to the Destiny Universe would be amazing, and doesn't conflict with anything we know about Destiny yet.

Edit: For example, the Halo Ring was awesome iconagraphy that was neither good nor evil, but extremely dangerous. Looking at it now brings up a lot of the Halo universe plot points, and motivations and philosophies about different races. That's beautiful, and could be done with the Traveler without (I would guess) Activision caring one bit.

There are stories…

by Jabberwok, Friday, September 26, 2014, 16:40 (3505 days ago) @ Earendil

Not that I would want iconography to get in the way of a good story, but... They would have to have come up with a new iconography, something that is the image of what we are about, what we try and protect, what our goal in the universe is. The image of the Traveler over the city is an amazing and memorable image, and to twist that into a panoptic structure would destroy any iconography that was built. That is not to say that iconography is about advertisement, it is used there, but it's also powerful for story telling. Having a simple icon that reminds you of a people, a building, or an event is a powerful thing. Think of the Swastica, the Rod of Acslepius, or the Cross. These are symbols that bring about stories, emotions, feeling of good, evil, and conflict.

That said, they can make the Traveler "Not the good guy" without making him "The bad guy". Just pull a Babylon 5 style philosophical conclusion. I've actually been thinking that Applying that sort of conclusion to the Destiny Universe would be amazing, and doesn't conflict with anything we know about Destiny yet.

Edit: For example, the Halo Ring was awesome iconagraphy that was neither good nor evil, but extremely dangerous. Looking at it now brings up a lot of the Halo universe plot points, and motivations and philosophies about different races. That's beautiful, and could be done with the Traveler without (I would guess) Activision caring one bit.

The Halo ring is a perfect example of why the story would not disrupt the iconography, and why this interpretation is believable. The Halos were revealed as weapons of horrific destructive force early on, and still retained their power as symbols of the series. Bungie has done this sort of change-up in the past. And that twist would only make the Traveler a more interesting icon, IMO, something beyond this childish black and white symbolism that we have right now in Destiny. If this story IS true, then Activision is staffed with busybodied halfwits. Though to be fair, they have revealed so little at this point, that the game's story could easily go in that direction.

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Then there are theories *SP*

by Grizzlei ⌂ @, Pacific Cloud Zone, Earth, Friday, September 26, 2014, 15:18 (3505 days ago) @ Cody Miller
edited by Grizzlei, Friday, September 26, 2014, 15:24

1. In 2013 Destiny's story was different, and revolved around the darkness having been spawned from the traveler itself. The speakers manipulated the people to hide this fact. You essentially end up fighting the traveler.

I don't see how this isn't true when there are so many big and little hints towards this in Destiny and the Grimoire. It's totally obvious that the Speaker has an agenda that isn't in the best interest of us or in the inhabitants of the City as a whole. Everything that we've been doing, even with a somewhat half-assed story, seems like there are things that neither he nor our Ghost are telling us or are obscuring the truth from.

In any case, however, I do believe we did end up fighting the Traveler in Destiny. Not as the white globe we see looming over the City, of course, but as a morphing form blacker than the night sky, the Heart of the Black Garden. Like the citizens of the City, people kneeled at its precense and revered it as a holy artifact, but also did all they could to safeguard it from harm. Speaking of the Heart itself, look at what it can do. It gives life. It brought out three Vex lords from an ancient, petrified slumber. Some could say these warriors were dead. There was such an emphasis on how they came to life, with energy shot from its core, in a manner so like the Traveler's light.

Sure, this wasn't totally evident in the story Bungie provided for us in the final product, but for me, it was crystal clear. Our existence as Guardians of the Light is total bullshit and foundations of the City Age were cemented in deceit.

Sol Progeny

by Earendil, Friday, September 26, 2014, 15:24 (3505 days ago) @ Grizzlei

It brought out three Vex lords from an ancient, petrified slumber. Some could say these warriors were dead. There was such an emphasis on how they came to life, with energy shot from its core, in a manner so like the Traveler's light.


The Grimoire has something to say about them :)

To Commander Zavala - My Thoughts on Recent Events
Zavala -

How like you to ask me for the bad news, even in this moment of triumph. I've finished going over that Ghost's report.

It is my hypothesis - a hypothesis at best - that the Vex saw the abominable presence at the heart of the Garden as a divine power. I can hear your protest already: how can machines have a god?

The answer is simple. The Vex, for all their voracious intelligence, could not understand or decipher what they found. They searched through all available reactions, and they settled on the course with the greatest payoff...to worship this power, and to remake themselves in its image.

I believe the three Axis Minds found in proximity to the abomination were Vex machines built to serve as vessels for this power: a way to extend its reach across space and time, binding it to the Vex, and the Vex to it. If they had succeeded, I cannot begin to guess what horrors they would have unleashed.

Attend carefully. There is cause for hope. When endangered, the abomination activated these vessels and defended itself. This tells us that it was threatened. Whatever it was, Guardians could harm it.

And it activated only a single vessel at a time. Its strength was limited. Whatever it intended, it was not ready yet.

We must assume the abomination was part of something greater. And we cannot flinch from the terrible, obvious comparison: just as the Traveler acts through us, this power was able to act through its own servants.

Let us be wary. There may be other abominations, and other vessels.

Ikora

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Sol Progeny

by Grizzlei ⌂ @, Pacific Cloud Zone, Earth, Friday, September 26, 2014, 15:35 (3505 days ago) @ Earendil

The answer is simple. The Vex, for all their voracious intelligence, could not understand or decipher what they found. They searched through all available reactions, and they settled on the course with the greatest payoff...to worship this power, and to remake themselves in its image.

It is getting so obvious. :P

I believe the three Axis Minds found in proximity to the abomination were Vex machines built to serve as vessels for this power: a way to extend its reach across space and time, binding it to the Vex, and the Vex to it. If they had succeeded, I cannot begin to guess what horrors they would have unleashed.

Sounds an awful lot like the Guardians and their manipulation of the Light as a weapon. The Heart sits as a centerpiece for these three Vex, just as the Traveler looms high before the Tower.

Wait, Sol Progeny? Vex aren't from Sol, are they? Also, why would machines have progeny? They're created from artificial matter. But then again, we could say the same of resurrected Guardians. Three Axis Minds is a strange coincidence. It's not like some of us didn't roll up into the Black Garden in teams of three.

Who knows? Maybe humanity is the Vex!

Attend carefully. There is cause for hope. When endangered, the abomination activated these vessels and defended itself. This tells us that it was threatened. Whatever it was, Guardians could harm it.

Okay, the Heart is either the Traveler or its sibling. This is just getting... well, I dunno.

And it activated only a single vessel at a time. Its strength was limited. Whatever it intended, it was not ready yet.

Ugh. Just stop it, Ikora.

We must assume the abomination was part of something greater. And we cannot flinch from the terrible, obvious comparison: just as the Traveler acts through us, this power was able to act through its own servants.

Wait, what?

Let us be wary. There may be other abominations, and other vessels.

I see what you did there, Bungie.

Sol Progeny

by Jabberwok, Friday, September 26, 2014, 16:46 (3505 days ago) @ Earendil

I see what you guys are saying, and I like it, but from that quote, this could still just be a case of two equivalent powers, light vs. dark, duking it out. Which is pretty common. I certainly hope it's more complex than that, though.

It brought out three Vex lords from an ancient, petrified slumber. Some could say these warriors were dead. There was such an emphasis on how they came to life, with energy shot from its core, in a manner so like the Traveler's light.

The Grimoire has something to say about them :)

To Commander Zavala - My Thoughts on Recent Events
Zavala -

How like you to ask me for the bad news, even in this moment of triumph. I've finished going over that Ghost's report.

It is my hypothesis - a hypothesis at best - that the Vex saw the abominable presence at the heart of the Garden as a divine power. I can hear your protest already: how can machines have a god?

The answer is simple. The Vex, for all their voracious intelligence, could not understand or decipher what they found. They searched through all available reactions, and they settled on the course with the greatest payoff...to worship this power, and to remake themselves in its image.

I believe the three Axis Minds found in proximity to the abomination were Vex machines built to serve as vessels for this power: a way to extend its reach across space and time, binding it to the Vex, and the Vex to it. If they had succeeded, I cannot begin to guess what horrors they would have unleashed.

Attend carefully. There is cause for hope. When endangered, the abomination activated these vessels and defended itself. This tells us that it was threatened. Whatever it was, Guardians could harm it.

And it activated only a single vessel at a time. Its strength was limited. Whatever it intended, it was not ready yet.

We must assume the abomination was part of something greater. And we cannot flinch from the terrible, obvious comparison: just as the Traveler acts through us, this power was able to act through its own servants.

Let us be wary. There may be other abominations, and other vessels.

Ikora

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There are stories…

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Friday, September 26, 2014, 15:19 (3505 days ago) @ Cody Miller

AAAAAA.... I need to get my review thing out. I was wondering about this.

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There are stories…

by SIX min WHISTLE @, Michigan, Friday, September 26, 2014, 15:25 (3505 days ago) @ Cody Miller

2. Activision wanted to preserve the traveler as an aspirational image for marketing iconography, and this didn't jive with the story.

I really, REALLY doubt this. I doubt Activision gave a shit about what angle they came from. At worst they could have just did more zany adventure's with Led Zeppelin for advertising. I don't think the ads even really mention the Traveler. As far as marketing goes, all the Traveler really is is a powerful image. Looking up at that giant ball is like seeing a Halo for the first time.

If nothing else, Activision knows how to market games well. They'd have no need to intrude on the game to advertise better.

There are stories…

by Jabberwok, Friday, September 26, 2014, 16:48 (3505 days ago) @ SIX min WHISTLE

2. Activision wanted to preserve the traveler as an aspirational image for marketing iconography, and this didn't jive with the story.


I really, REALLY doubt this. I doubt Activision gave a shit about what angle they came from. At worst they could have just did more zany adventure's with Led Zeppelin for advertising. I don't think the ads even really mention the Traveler. As far as marketing goes, all the Traveler really is is a powerful image. Looking up at that giant ball is like seeing a Halo for the first time.

If nothing else, Activision knows how to market games well. They'd have no need to intrude on the game to advertise better.

Hmm, actually, I agree with you here. The ads closer to release were largely irrelevant fluff, it seemed to me, and I don't remember seeing much of the Traveler in them.

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There are stories…

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Friday, September 26, 2014, 15:33 (3505 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Where are these stories coming from? Is the Angry Joe video the only place to hear them or are there other places? I'd like to read these rumors to try and get a better feel for them.

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There are stories…

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, September 26, 2014, 15:35 (3505 days ago) @ Ragashingo

Where are these stories coming from? Is the Angry Joe video the only place to hear them or are there other places? I'd like to read these rumors to try and get a better feel for them.

Reddit is a good place to start. The initial post has since long been deleted, but it's around somewhere.

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There are stories…

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Friday, September 26, 2014, 15:44 (3505 days ago) @ Ragashingo

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Where there's smoke?

by Zeouterlimits, Ireland, Friday, September 26, 2014, 16:01 (3505 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Meaning that some of it might be partially true?
It doesn't sound too surprising that the twist resolves around the Traveller's true nature.
"We've" mentioned that possibility a lot.

As a Staten fan, I'm biased to believe this wasn't the narrative he had in mind.

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Perhaps that plot is now (much) further down the pipeline?

by Zeouterlimits, Ireland, Friday, September 26, 2014, 16:31 (3505 days ago) @ Zeouterlimits

- No text -

There are stories…

by Fuertisimo, Friday, September 26, 2014, 17:32 (3505 days ago) @ Cody Miller

While this fits neatly into my Activision is leprosy to everything they touch theory, and would also explain why Staten was like 'peace bitches I'm out', I doubt we'll ever get anything official. It's easier to just never acknowledge that the story was a hot steaming pile of feces than engage in any kind of public mea culpa and pledge to do better next time.

Still, I've been on record for a long time as wishing to drug Staten with some truth syrum and ask so many questions. You know, in a totally not weird way. Ahem.

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There are stories…

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, September 26, 2014, 19:12 (3505 days ago) @ Fuertisimo

While this fits neatly into my Activision is leprosy to everything they touch theory, and would also explain why Staten was like 'peace bitches I'm out', I doubt we'll ever get anything official. It's easier to just never acknowledge that the story was a hot steaming pile of feces than engage in any kind of public mea culpa and pledge to do better next time.

Still, I've been on record for a long time as wishing to drug Staten with some truth syrum and ask so many questions. You know, in a totally not weird way. Ahem.

He will open up to me when I get around to writing that book about Bungie.

There are stories…

by Fuertisimo, Saturday, September 27, 2014, 06:48 (3505 days ago) @ Cody Miller

If only that were true. NDAs have pretty much murdered our ability to see behind the scenes (or an industry workers innate sense of self preservation). It's a shame too because there's definitely stories to be told.

To be a fly on the wall during the development meetings for some games, man I'd give anything.

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There are stories…

by Grizzlei ⌂ @, Pacific Cloud Zone, Earth, Saturday, September 27, 2014, 08:58 (3504 days ago) @ Fuertisimo

Cue Cody talking about his role in the development of Portal 2 in 3... 2... 1!

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There are stories…

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, September 27, 2014, 09:47 (3504 days ago) @ Grizzlei

Cue Cody talking about his role in the development of Portal 2 in 3... 2... 1!

I know you're joking, but the game was being sent off to cert when I came up there. It was already set and done.

The next part of the Half Life series is an entirely different story :-p

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There are stories…

by ncsuDuncan @, Saturday, September 27, 2014, 10:28 (3504 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Cue Cody talking about his role in the development of Portal 2 in 3... 2... 1!


I know you're joking, but the game was being sent off to cert when I came up there. It was already set and done.

The next part of the Half Life series is an entirely different story :-p

I must have missed those headlines.

HALF-LIFE 3 CANCELLED. VALVE: "WHY BOTHER?"

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There are stories…

by Schooly D, TSD Gaming Condo, TX, Saturday, September 27, 2014, 10:19 (3504 days ago) @ Cody Miller

This is a cute theory, but it's not possible. I've been assured by many members of the Destiny.Bungie.Org forum that Activision has zero creative influence or control on anything Destiny-related. It's hogwash.

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There are stories…

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, September 27, 2014, 10:33 (3504 days ago) @ Schooly D

This is a cute theory, but it's not possible. I've been assured by many members of the Destiny.Bungie.Org forum that Activision has zero creative influence or control on anything Destiny-related. It's hogwash.

That's worse then, because that means the creative decisions were Bungie's alone, and they are therefore incompetent…

There are stories…

by Fuertisimo, Saturday, September 27, 2014, 13:45 (3504 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Sarcasm font needed.

This thread on /r/DestinyTheGame may shed light on things.

by Riceamike, Sunday, September 28, 2014, 18:04 (3503 days ago) @ Cody Miller

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