Last year's interview with Jason Jones is a revelation.

“I think the great tragedy of Halo is that for years and years it provided wonderful single-player and co-op content, and we provided people with almost no fun incentives or excuses, almost no reason besides their own enjoyment, to go back and replay it. So Halo 1 built these 10 labor of love missions, and only if you decided to go back and replay them was there any incentive to do so.

“If I would have done anything to Halo 1, it would have been to do something to draw people back into those experiences that they enjoyed the first time. Even in the smallest ways, just to give them an excuse to get together and do it again.”

There it is.
That's what made Destiny how it is. A complete apparent lack of understanding of why we who played Halo went back and played Halo again and again. Because it was fun. Not because we needed an incentive to get Marks or Engrams or Faction Rep. But because it was fun.

I don't even understand how they missed that.

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Destiny is fun. I miss your point.

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"Players will only want to play our missions if they want to play our missions, so let's use the investment system to make them want to play our missions instead."

Destiny's gameplay is fun, but I can tell you the only thing making me go back to replay Door Unlock Simulator Mission #23829348 is the weekly reward because very few of Destiny's story missions offer 'story' or unique experiences.

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And that's the major sin of player investment systems. People like being rewarded. It is scientifically based methods on how to make people 'addicted' to things.

What gamers instead take this manipulation as is having 'fun'. They don't realize that what they're having fun doing is 'getting things handed to them', and that ends up being the main motivator to play more, because they want to get more rewards. If you stripped Destiny of all player rewards, no one would play anything. The game is too bare otherwise to be enjoyable.

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This is what I'm struggling with. I usually avoid loot games for this very reason, and have never had trouble saying no to this format in the past, but I love the world and gameplay that Bungie has created. It gives me reason to want to come back, and then I get hooked on the reward system for the rest of that playtime. I wish this weren't so.

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This is what I'm struggling with. I usually avoid loot games for this very reason, and have never had trouble saying no to this format in the past, but I love the world and gameplay that Bungie has created. It gives me reason to want to come back, and then I get hooked on the reward system for the rest of that playtime. I wish this weren't so.

Just have discipline. I will say the one positive thing about Destiny is that only one piece of content (the raid) requires you to engage with the investment system in order to play. You can pretty much experience everything else without having to grind. Just quit once you reach level 20.

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I haven't ground in destiny once. I'm addicted to the tactical combat loop of destiny. I think it's Fantastic. It's the reason I keep coming back. Just as it was for Halo and Street Fighter (2 and 4). I genuinely find the core gameplay to be better than Halo 3. Which is my favourite Halo campaign whic I played just as much as Destiny but with out loot. The fact that I now occasionally get an RNG blessing is a bonus and the fact that I get to tweek weapons and subclasses brings a whole new level of depth and immersion for me. I KNOW what fun is. I personally find grind games appalling. I maintain that just because you can grind in Destiny it doesnt mean you have to in order to have fun. I just play for fun. Destiny is fun.

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Destiny is fun.

For you. Destiny is fun for you.

I can't believe we've been having this argument with Cody for years and now everyone's doing it.

For many people, myself included, who love bungie and love this community, Destiny is not as fun as we want it to be. That doesn't make us bad fans, bad gamers or fun haters. It means the game is divisive and ergo anyone's opinion on it carries more than the usual dose of subjectivity

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{Long post, warning you all now}

While there is validity to what you are saying in regards to today's carrot and stick systems in gaming, that doesn't make an investment system inherently "bad".

I'll say it again: Video games, in general, are all time wasters on one level or another.

What tangible thing do you get by replaying the campaign of Halo over and over again?

Absolutely nothing.

What tangible thing do you get by playing strikes in Destiny over and over again?

"You get a piece of loot"

No you don't. It's not tangible. You can't do anything with it. You got nothing.

In a perfectly balanced game of multiplayer, where you meet and best your opponent based purely on your skill beating theirs, what is your reward?

Absolutely nothing.

That all sounds pretty shitty, doesn't it?

Well, of course it does, because if that's how you approach gaming, with that mentality of "what's in it for me?" you're going to find that your time is much better spent doing almost ANYTHING else.

What do I have to show for myself if I sit down and binge on a videogame for 10 hours on a Saturday?

Nothing.

Video games are a waste of time. Or are they?

Being a part of the greater B.ORG community, most of us all know for a fact that there are plenty of things you can get out of gaming. What you "get" though, varies from person to person based on their needs.

This post is going to turn into an essay, so if you don't feel like reading, then I suggest you stop here.

Some people play these games because they like the exploration, or the combat, or the story, and that's all they need.

Some people play because it helps them physically with motor-skills, co-ordination, problem solving and critical thinking.

Some people play for the social aspects, the community meetings, the team work, the camaraderie.

Some people play for the rush, the possibility of failure, the competition aspects of meeting your opponent on the battlefield, and beating them.

Some people, believe it or not, like investment systems. It could be any reason- they like them because they like the rewards, they enjoy the chase, they like to level, their real lives aren't filled with much achievement for whatever reason, but goddammit, they worked hard to max out their character or chase an gamer achievement and sometimes that's all you need.

What's the difference between beating Halo on legendary in an afternoon and reaching the next level of Angry Birds while taking a shit at work?

Not much.

^^I know that's going to instantly make at least 2 specific people mad and argue differently, but you're wrong. On the surface, there is no difference. None. You get what you want out of it.

Why *I* do\do not play, should have NO bearing on why *YOU* do\do not play.

Your "fun" is just as valid as mine. If I want to play just because it kills 2 hours of my evening, who cares? If someone else wants to play to chase bounties or get that one gun, that's their prerogative. If someone wants to sit in front of a cave and shoot into it for hours, they can! And you know what? If I don't like it, I don't have to stay! It's fantastic! Maybe I want to keep playing that one encounter on AotCR over and over again and that's it- I can do that! Who cares!

Does it make my gaming experience any more legitimate or better than another persons experience? Hell no.

All the quarters I put into the arcades of my childhood trying to get to the end of the games- are those now less valid forms of fun because of the console games of today? Not on your life.

I hated CoD and GoW- but I don't shit all over the devs of those games and the people who play them because *I* don't enjoy it. And I'm also not going to go to their houses, and preach to them why I think they're wrong, that the way they have fun is bad and they should feel bad just like I wouldn't want anyone coming to mine and laying into me for spending hours in my garage making fantasy costumes for videogames.

People will get what they want to get out of their games. Fun, finds a way.

The bottom line, is that if you are still playing something and you aren't having fun*, then you should stop playing.

(*regardless of what that specific "fun" means to you in that context)

Where Destiny succeeds and fails is so dependent on the individual playing the damn game, that most of the reviews and critiques have no meaning from one person to the next.

So someone doesn't like Destiny- Ok. I'm not going to get all butt hurt over it.

So someone is having fun in Destiny- Ok. I'm not going to get all butt hurt over it.

Why, why are the above two statements so hard for people to accept?

If your argument for why Destiny sucks is that it isn't as fun as another game (because reason), why do you keep playing it in the first place?

And then why come around to a community where people ARE playing it and try to convince them otherwise?

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I agree.

Here's a quick story of fun and investment that happened to me last night. I had picked up the bounty for Thorn with my hunter. I was at the part where I had to get a lot of kills with void damage in crucible. I normally like to play as a titan in crucible, and leave my hunter to PvE. Anyway, I went in and after a few games realized that I was going to have to play differently than normal to make any real progress on the bounty. Unfortunately, that playstyle isn't fun for me. After 3 games of camping in corners hoping for someone to run by, I decided to abandon the bounty. Why play if I wasn't having fun?

Instead I went to play a couple of strikes before bed because I have fun playing them. On my last one The Last Word dropped at the endgame screen. I now feel like garbage today because I stayed up to shoot stuff with it. I don't really care anymore about grinding for weapons, but I know I'm going to keep on playing just because it's so much fun to shoot.

Point is, I quit playing something I didn't find fun and ended up finding something unexpected that is more fun than I imagined. Maybe that's a good thing about RNG. Play what you enjoy and every once in a while something new will pop up unexpectedly.

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Exactly!

Everyone saying that the only reason they play is for the rewards is doing it wrong. If the game or its missions aren't fun then stop playing. Why you people grind and grind through the investment system is beyond me. It's like you want something to complain about. Heh, for some of you I think complaining is your real fun. Destiny is just the thing that gives you something to complain about...

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Exactly!

Everyone saying that the only reason they play is for the rewards is doing it wrong. If the game or its missions aren't fun then stop playing. Why you people grind and grind through the investment system is beyond me. It's like you want something to complain about. Heh, for some of you I think complaining is your real fun. Destiny is just the thing that gives you something to complain about...

Right here with you guys. The core of Destiny is so fucking solid (shooting, moving, the combat feedback loops, etc). Feels a lot like Titanfall to me, which is huge praise.

The loot is just a bonus on top of it. I've never not enjoyed the gear I've had, from the very first gun on up. Rocket launchers that rend tears from the very earth are just gravy.

EDIT: And yeah seening bluerunner with that hand cannon last night giggling like a school boy was pure joy. "Destiny isn't fun why don't you know what fun is?" Man, eat my shorts.

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"Man, I really want to replay that mission on Venus so I can relive the time I defended a door against three waves of enemies"

"Gee whiz, I think I'll go play that crazy mission with the computer and the wave defense and the doors on Mars!"

Nobody says this.

They say "Man, I really need ascendant materials, guess I'll go re-do that thing with the door and the waves."

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"Man, I really want to replay that mission on Venus so I can relive the time I defended a door against three waves of enemies"

or

"Gee whiz, I think I'll go play that crazy mission with the computer and the wave defense and the doors on Mars!"

Nobody says this.

They say "Man, I really need ascendant materials, guess I'll go re-do that thing with the door and the waves."

This is true, but I also hear a lot of people while I'm playing with them say things like: "What do you want to do now? Play some strikes? Or jump in Crucible?"

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"Man, I really want to replay that mission on Venus so I can relive the time I defended a door against three waves of enemies"

or

"Gee whiz, I think I'll go play that crazy mission with the computer and the wave defense and the doors on Mars!"

Nobody says this.

They say "Man, I really need ascendant materials, guess I'll go re-do that thing with the door and the waves."

what are you talking about

"Oh, sweet! The Archon Priest! I love this strike."

"Bounty for Winter's Run! Sweet, that's super cool."

"Oh nice, bounty for Mars. I love Mars."

"Nightfall strike has all the burn modifiers on? Holy shit that'll be awesome."

"Oh, cool, a bounty for the mission where you open the radio tower for Rasputin. I solo'd that Daily Heroic once. Man that was awesome."

This is literally me all the time.

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Or Lil' Blue for the 100th time when I ask what he wants to play: "Sword of Crota! Sword of Crota!"

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Or Lil' Blue for the 100th time when I ask what he wants to play: "Sword of Crota! Sword of Crota!"

LOL oh god I can just imagine

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Like the multiple Scarab battle in Halo 3 or the Warthog run or the final level of Reach.

Like the only story missions that stand out is the assault on the Winter Kell and boarding his ship which was so hype and cool, and The Black Garden and the Sword of Crota.

Every other story mission is forgettable.

I can't think of a non memorable level in Halo

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Like the multiple Scarab battle in Halo 3 or the Warthog run or the final level of Reach.

Like the only story missions that stand out is the assault on the Winter Kell and boarding his ship which was so hype and cool, and The Black Garden and the Sword of Crota.
Every other story mission is forgettable.

I Agree to an extent, but that comes as a result of having far too many missions with similar "holdout door defense" portions.

The beauty of the Daily Story missions and the Queen's Orders is that you get a refresher of things that make certain story missions stand out. Playing the "Eye of a Gate Lord" with Solar burn highlights how intense and unique the approach to the Gate Lord is, as any Hobgoblin can send you back to the checkpoint, but you can flank them in many ways before they get a bead on you.

"The Garden's Spire" felt very much like a Halo level, with shades of "The Ark" from Halo 3.

Another issue was that many of the "story" missions had little to do with the actual story, and would have better served as secondary objectives within the plot-relevant missions, with stuff like "A Rising Tide" and "The Buried City" having little bearing on the actual story.

And lastly, a number of the missions feel like segments of what would be a larger level in the Halo games, which was likely done to have a larger number of "bite sized" missions for the more casual audience. If "The Ishtar Collective" and "The Archive" had been a single mission with multiple objectives to do in any order, or with dialogue that changed based on what you did first, they'd definitely be more memorable. The same could be said of the aforementioned "Rising Tide" and "Buried City"...

I can't think of a non memorable level in Halo

What were the defining moments of "Gravemind" or "High Charity"? Could you tell them apart at a glance? What were your mission objectives?

What about "Sacred Icon" and "Quarantine Zone"? Remember which had a Gondola portion*?

*Trick question

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What were the defining moments of "Gravemind" or "High Charity"? Could you tell them apart at a glance? What were your mission objectives?

What about "Sacred Icon" and "Quarantine Zone"? Remember which had a Gondola portion*?

In defense of those levels, they really felt more like one long mission rather than two. I'd hazard they split the content into two levels mainly for organization and technical reasons.

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What were the defining moments of "Gravemind" or "High Charity"? Could you tell them apart at a glance? What were your mission objectives?

I haven't played Halo 2's story in a couple of years but Gravemind was the mission where Chief goes 'boo', and High Charity had the rock music.

What about "Sacred Icon" and "Quarantine Zone"? Remember which had a Gondola portion*?
*Trick question

Sacred Icon and Quarantine Zone were my favorite Arbiter levels solely because I played them all the time to keep allies alive. Quarantine Zone allowed me to deck out my Elite buddies with energy swords and SI gave me Jackal Bros.

Love me some Jackal Bros.

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The beauty of the Daily Story missions and the Queen's Orders is that you get a refresher of things that make certain story missions stand out. Playing the "Eye of a Gate Lord" with Solar burn highlights how intense and unique the approach to the Gate Lord is, as any Hobgoblin can send you back to the checkpoint, but you can flank them in many ways before they get a bead on you.

That was the first Queen's Wrath mission I got, and it really opened my eyes. I slowed down a lot and learned the layout of the level more than I ever had before. Also, it gave me a new appreciation for my legendary solar fusion rifle, which was still a new acquisition for me at the time.

Also, it was hilarious when I finally got to the Gate Lord, prepared for a difficult fight, and that fusion rifle destroyed him in 4 shots. He was dead so fast that he never had time to fire at me, and his reinforcements spawned after the 30 second "mission end" countdown had started.

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"Man, I really want to replay that mission on Venus so I can relive the time I defended a door against three waves of enemies"

or

"Gee whiz, I think I'll go play that crazy mission with the computer and the wave defense and the doors on Mars!"

Nobody says this.

They say "Man, I really need ascendant materials, guess I'll go re-do that thing with the door and the waves."

Nobody says those thing because boiling missions of any game down like that is pretty darn dumb. Likewise nobody says about Halo, "I want to replay the mission where I fight through the covenant to get to the objective!" Or maybe you do? Perhaps Halo looks like this to you:

Pillar of Autumn: Run past enemies to objective one, fight through enemies to objective two.
Halo: Fight through enemies to objective one, fight waves, fight to objective two - four fighting waves at each.
Truth and Reconciliation: Fight through enemies to objective one, fight through waves, fight to objective two, fight to objective three.
Silent Cartographer: Fight to objective one, fight to objective two, fight to objective three, fight to objective four.
Assault on the Control Room: Fight to objective one.
343 Guilty Spark: Fight to objective one, fight to objective two.
The Library: Fight to objective one.
Two Betrayals: Fight to objectives one, two, and three.
Keyes: Fight to objective one, fight to objective two.
The Maw: Fight to objective one, fight to objectives two - five, drive to objective six, keep driving to objective seven.

No? That's silly? Stupid? Dishonest? So is the way you strip out the story content of Destiny. Yes, Destiny's story is not as strong as Halo's, but it's not the door defender you make it out to be either.

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You forgot the parts in The Library where you fight off waves of enemies while your floating robot ball unlocks the door.

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You forgot the parts in The Library where you fight off waves of enemies while your floating robot ball unlocks the door.

Remember how everyone hated The Library?......

I agree with the earlier post about boiling things down, but seriously, there is a LOT of door defense in Destiny. I don't really understand why, most of it is not very relevant. At least in Reach, they were pushing Firefight, so it made more sense to throw it into the story.

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Everyone saying that the only reason they play is for the rewards is doing it wrong. If the game or its missions aren't fun then stop playing. Why you people grind and grind through the investment system is beyond me. It's like you want something to complain about.

The problem is that the random reward & upgrade psychological hook (loot systems in general) overrides the fun factor for many, many, many people and they forget about the fun and focus on the grind for the new bling.

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So the question is, how do you entice people to play a level a second or tenth time without introducing the loot fun killer? Is it possible to reward the player without it becoming a distraction to the fun of the level/gameplay?

I've a buddy who's level 28, I'm 27, & another one of our group was 26, last night we helped him patrol the moon & find helium filaments to get him up to 27. I was surprised how fun patrol was in a group of 3 while helping him out. Our group vacillates between the questions of "what do you want to do for fun" versus "what do you need to do to level up" with the level up occupying 2/3rd of the time. I feel the driving force behind the "what do you need" question is so we can be ready for the raid. We're finally about ready to do the raid (next week maybe?) I expect after that we'll just be doing what we want for fun most of the time.

Maybe lowering the bar for the raid would have been helpful? I also really liked the idea of unlocking the "side missions" after finishing the campaign.

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So the question is, how do you entice people to play a level a second or tenth time without introducing the loot fun killer? Is it possible to reward the player without it becoming a distraction to the fun of the level/gameplay?

You make the levels varied enough to allow for different types of gameplay, opening up the game's sandbox to allow players to try different avenues of approach to complete a mission. You give the player an end-goal, and for the most part let them figure out how to get to it. Silent Cartographer is the perfect example of what made Halo great. It was a level that can be approached in numerous ways, a large open space with allies and enemies going at it with eachother and varied encounters that make the player try different ways to beat it.

Destiny is a tunnel. Nothing you do in the strikes isn't what you're supposed to do. Aside from breaking the game by pushing Atheon off a cliff or launching the Psion Flayers off the platform, nothing you do is ultimately up to you. There are small vehicle sections in SOME strikes that end and it is impossible to bring your vehicle with you. In Halo, there were many sections, but if you managed to do it you weren't punished for it.

Jason Jones said he didn't put incentives in the Halo games, but in fact he did. He really, really, did.

The Bungie that made the elaborate method of flying a Pelican or Phantom in Reach must not be the Bungie that made Destiny.

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The Bungie that made the elaborate method of flying a Pelican or Phantom in Reach must not be the Bungie that made Destiny.

Dan Miller did that, and I know for a fact that he worked very hard on Destiny.

One point that I don't think anyone has made, in all this nostalgia over Halo CE (which was awesome) is that one reason we played it to death was that there was nothing better to play. I think there are more good games now, and had the field been so crowded back then, we might not have discovered all the replayability that Halo offered.

Destiny keeps surprising me. My early opinions feel premature now. I wouldn't say the investment system is what has kept me playing, but it have prompted me to replay parts of the game I might not have chosen otherwise. I finished the game a while ago, but I jump into the daily, and it feels fresh, it's not like how I remembered it, and sometimes I find it hard to believe I'd actually played it before.

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One point that I don't think anyone has made, in all this nostalgia over Halo CE (which was awesome) is that one reason we played it to death was that there was nothing better to play.

No.

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On the Xbox then. I wouldn't know about most of those, and I think the majority of gamers had only one system, but I could be wrong.

This same point has been made about Halo 2 by others, though. One of the reasons it was king of the hill for so long on XBL was that there weren't any credible challengers.

EDIT: I will say that I enjoyed the original Project Gotham Racing much more than my time with Forza on the Xbone.

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One point that I don't think anyone has made, in all this nostalgia over Halo CE (which was awesome) is that one reason we played it to death was that there was nothing better to play.

No.

There are 3 Xbox games on that list. Very few buyers had multiple consoles in those days.

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That reminds me, I've always meant to try Shenmue out and find out what the big deal is.

Also, Ico really is as beautiful as everyone says it is.

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Maybe that's a good thing about RNG. Play what you enjoy and every once in a while something new will pop up unexpectedly.

As some of you may know, I'm not entirely fond of the Titan class. But getting a full set of Legendary/exotic armor for it (thanks, RNG!) inspired me to make one. Whatever happened, with whatever subclass, I knew that I had a full set of raid-ready gear waiting for me once I hit 20. So now, I had zero holes to dig in search of treasure. I had zero "incentive" to play the game. All I would have to do would be to grind quickly in the Venus atrium for a couple of hours and I'd be set...

But with this newfound freedom, I found myself putting restrictions on my gameplay, and I've ended up playing the game in so many new ways, that it doesn't feel like the same game. I've been going into missions at a difficulty above my own (My Warlock was typically five levels higher than the mission), I've been exclusively using weapons that I never touch as a Warlock, and the Defender build could not be more different from the Sunsinger... And I'm having fun. And I can thank RNG for getting me to open my eyes to that side.

But some folks think that the investment system itself is where people are getting their fun, simply because it can be addictive. And yet, completely unaffected by any progressional reward system, I've been having a blast simply because I'm playing the way I want to play, which is exactly what I was doing before, but now it can't be said that it was because the game was "handing me things", because there is nothing that the game can "hand" me, since I have zero inclination to rush towards the Exotic gear waiting for me. Playing with weapons that I don't use, at difficulties that slow my progress should say something about what people can get out of the game.

Take the Raid, for example. You are only rewarded once a week. I'm pretty sure I've joined at least ten Raid runs in the past week. What reward could I expect? What was the game going to "hand" me on the second run? On the third? Nothing. The past three times that it HAS given me something, it's been ascendant materials, two good weapons, and a Warlock bond. I haven't run to any forum crying about how the game ripped me off, or that my fun time was negated by the fact that I wasn't "rewarded" adequately...

I've even done this nightfall twice already, and will likely do it again a number of times before the week is over, and I'm not getting anything for it, other than the feeling of success, and the gratitude of whoever I run it with...

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I spent a lot of time in the beta, just jumping on trees and shit. I haven't done stuff like that since Halo 2. I explore maps and find stuff. I go into that game and punch people to kill time. Sometimes, on patrol bounties, just for fun I stick around and kill a few more dudes before moving on, because the game's fun.

DOES NOBODY THINK THIS GAME IS FUN INHERENTLY?!

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I spent a lot of time in the beta, just jumping on trees and shit.

I'm with you man. I signed up to kill aliens. It's the best, and with Destiny, you can do a whole helluvalotofit.

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I spent a lot of time in the beta, just jumping on trees and shit.

I'm with you man. I signed up to kill aliens. It's the best, and with Destiny, you can do a whole helluvalotofit.

This is a big reason I liked ODST's Firefight and ME3's co-op mode so much. They are significantly less interesting that Destiny haha

I mean jeeze ME3 was basically the same mission on different maps. How much of that did I play? Boggles the mind.

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You're right about ME3's gameplay repetition, but it had a rich and satisfying story to accompany it. (Well, *mostly* satisfying, anyway...)

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You're right about ME3's gameplay repetition, but it had a rich and satisfying story to accompany it. (Well, *mostly* satisfying, anyway...)

I dunno. The story didn't really bleed all that much over into the co-op for me. It was more the setting and universe as a playground to run around in.

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This is a big reason I liked ODST's Firefight and ME3's co-op mode so much. They are significantly less interesting that Destiny haha

The nature of Destiny's co-op, and the way that different classes feed off each other, is some of the most rewarding shit about this game. When a defender drops his bubble shield and orbs appear all over the place...mmm, bring them radiant solar grenades! Gameplay both increases in speed and chaos; that synergy is some of the best stuff Destiny has to offer.

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I'll say this in favor of Destiny.

Co-op works fundamentally. It just needs better content.

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I'll say this in favor of Destiny.

Co-op works fundamentally. It just needs better content.

I still don't really know how I feel about the game, to be honest. It's the first game I've ever attempted to play online with someone who wasn't in the room with me, on a split screen. Honestly, my biggest gripe with it is the lack of split screen. I understand why they made that decision; fundamentally, all of Bungie's games have been quite different, and some work better than others for co-op play (Oni, for instance, wouldn't really work, at least I don't think it would).

Initially, I felt Bungie had missed the boat with Destiny, but I think I was bringing an expectation from Halo, and I don't think Destiny and Halo are ultimately the same kind of game. At least, I don't ingest them in the same way.

I still don't really know how I feel about it as a story; it's certainly not equal to Bungie's other endeavors, in my opinion. The gameplay is enjoyable to me at the highest levels of difficulty, though, especially in the cooperative setting. Nightfall feels like legendary difficulty Halo 3, but with more insanity/randomness. I guess I haven't played enough to know if that will get old or not, but I've played over 80 hours in a month and I'm not bored.

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DOES NOBODY THINK THIS GAME IS FUN INHERENTLY?!

Plenty of us do on here, I promise :) I often find myself just running around jumping randomly killing bad guys as they appear for 10-20 minutes for no other reason then I find the combat fun.

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I spent a lot of time in the beta, just jumping on trees and shit. I haven't done stuff like that since Halo 2. I explore maps and find stuff. I go into that game and punch people to kill time. Sometimes, on patrol bounties, just for fun I stick around and kill a few more dudes before moving on, because the game's fun.

DOES NOBODY THINK THIS GAME IS FUN INHERENTLY?!

It's a blast! While running patrol I'll find myself eliminating a group of enemies just because they're there & the combat is fun. Sometimes I melee the whole group, because it's fun. I especially love punching shanks. I wish there were more variety to the shanks, bigger, different weapons, etc. Perhaps it's because they remind me so much of the drones in Marathon that I want the juggernauts too.

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After having now puy it aside ... no. I don't derive nearly as much enjoyment from it as I should. It's forgettable to me

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And that's the major sin of player investment systems. People like being rewarded. It is scientifically based methods on how to make people 'addicted' to things.

What gamers instead take this manipulation as is having 'fun'. They don't realize that what they're having fun doing is 'getting things handed to them', and that ends up being the main motivator to play more, because they want to get more rewards. If you stripped Destiny of all player rewards, no one would play anything. The game is too bare otherwise to be enjoyable.

I take back my other comment, you're being asinine, and I bet people are responding to it in predictable and negative (and maybe bad) ways-- I'm out.

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And that's the major sin of player investment systems. People like being rewarded. It is scientifically based methods on how to make people 'addicted' to things.

It might just be me, but you're too close to accusing game developers of measuring the marigolds for my taste. Or maybe I'm reading too much into the fact that "scientifically based methods" came off negative?

Of course, this is on top of everything else objectionable you've been saying, but others have been addressing that better than I could.

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And that's the major sin of player investment systems. People like being rewarded. It is scientifically based methods on how to make people 'addicted' to things.

What gamers instead take this manipulation as is having 'fun'. They don't realize that what they're having fun doing is 'getting things handed to them', and that ends up being the main motivator to play more, because they want to get more rewards. If you stripped Destiny of all player rewards, no one would play anything. The game is too bare otherwise to be enjoyable.

And that's why I stopped playing a few weeks ago. An awareness of whether I'm playing the game because it's enjoyable, or because I'm simply being drawn in by progression and rewards systems. I must've played Assault On the Control Room hundreds of times, and Halo never needed to reward me to make me want to. In fact, if it had tried to keep me playing after I no longer enjoyed it, I may have come to dislike the game. Years ago, I sunk more hours into Unreal Tournament than a decent human ever should. There was no loot, no achievements, and no locked content. It was just fun.

I might play Destiny again if the urge strikes me, but not for gear. That high level weapon looks cool, and might be fun to play with, but there are also 20 other games in my library that will be fun right now, and not in a week or two. I'd rather focus on those.

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Do you have a link to the interview? I never read it and would like to; I don't know if I'll find it myself. I ask because it's obvious you don't like Destiny (which is fine) and that you've got an ax to grind regarding its investment system (which is fine too) so it appears to me you're cherry picking this quote to support your view, and then declaring the whole enterprise rotten to the core.

I'd like to see the broader context of the quote, since, you know, Jason helped make Halo and actually makes video games and might have some good things to say about it even though it's intially off putting and maybe I won't agree with him at the end. I mean he used the phrase "great tragedy of Halo." Did that set you off or something?

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It's an IGN interview broken into 3 parts. Here's the link to the first part, and the other two parts are linked at the top of the article. OP's quote is from part 3.

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“I think the great tragedy of Halo is that for years and years it provided wonderful single-player and co-op content, and we provided people with almost no fun incentives or excuses, almost no reason besides their own enjoyment, to go back and replay it. So Halo 1 built these 10 labor of love missions, and only if you decided to go back and replay them was there any incentive to do so.

“If I would have done anything to Halo 1, it would have been to do something to draw people back into those experiences that they enjoyed the first time. Even in the smallest ways, just to give them an excuse to get together and do it again.”

There it is.
That's what made Destiny how it is. A complete apparent lack of understanding of why we who played Halo went back and played Halo again and again. Because it was fun. Not because we needed an incentive to get Marks or Engrams or Faction Rep. But because it was fun.

I don't even understand how they missed that.

The primary issue I have with your post is this sentence fragment:

"A complete apparent lack of understanding of why we who played Halo went back and played Halo again and again."

Many millions of copies of that game were sold - there is really NO generalization you can make about why 'we' played the game over and over again that will be accurate. You can speak for yourself - but you absolutely, positively cannot speak for all of us.

If I had to pick who 'understands' my gaming motivations more, you or Jones... I think I'd pick Jones.

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Many millions of copies of that game were sold - there is really NO generalization you can make about why 'we' played the game over and over again that will be accurate. You can speak for yourself - but you absolutely, positively cannot speak for all of us.

I can say with certainty that a reason we played over and over was NOT because we were offered investment rewards - because Halo had none. You can therefore conclude Halo was replayed over and over because the people doing so found it fun for its own sake, in whatever manner they chose to do so.

The only exception was if you were a pro getting paid to play.

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Many millions of copies of that game were sold - there is really NO generalization you can make about why 'we' played the game over and over again that will be accurate. You can speak for yourself - but you absolutely, positively cannot speak for all of us.

I can say with certainty that a reason we played over and over was NOT because we were offered investment rewards - because Halo had none. You can therefore conclude Halo was replayed over and over because the people doing so found it fun for its own sake, in whatever manner they chose to do so.

The only exception was if you were a pro getting paid to play.

And Jones' point was that SOME people DIDN'T play over and over again - but he wanted them to.

What you're missing - what Riceamike missed - is that Jones wasn't talking about you, or me, or anyone who reads this forum. He was talking about the people who WEREN'T obsessive about the game.

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What you're missing - what Riceamike missed - is that Jones wasn't talking about you, or me, or anyone who reads this forum. He was talking about the people who WEREN'T obsessive about the game.

Hmm... and who maybe never got to messing with the game like we do. Thinking about Korny's post above where Titan gear got him to try a bunch of stuff he'd never of thought to do.

I mean, how many people rolled through AotCR one time with the tank, and never went back to try it in the Warthog, or on foot? If an investment systems gets them to stick around long enough to try that stuff, then that's good yeah?

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Many millions of copies of that game were sold - there is really NO generalization you can make about why 'we' played the game over and over again that will be accurate. You can speak for yourself - but you absolutely, positively cannot speak for all of us.

I can say with certainty that a reason we played over and over was NOT because we were offered investment rewards - because Halo had none. You can therefore conclude Halo was replayed over and over because the people doing so found it fun for its own sake, in whatever manner they chose to do so.

The only exception was if you were a pro getting paid to play.

And Jones' point was that SOME people DIDN'T play over and over again - but he wanted them to.

I kind of resent that then. I feel like it should be up to me to decide whether to forgo playing a new game (or doing something else) in order to replay an old game.

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And Jones' point was that SOME people DIDN'T play over and over again - but he wanted them to.

I kind of resent that then. I feel like it should be up to me to decide whether to forgo playing a new game (or doing something else) in order to replay an old game.

Wow. So you're suggesting that the investment system is MAKING YOU DO SOMETHING YOU DON'T WANT TO DO?

It is up to you. It's an investment system - it's not a gun to your head, or someone holding your dog hostage.

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And Jones' point was that SOME people DIDN'T play over and over again - but he wanted them to.

I kind of resent that then. I feel like it should be up to me to decide whether to forgo playing a new game (or doing something else) in order to replay an old game.

Wow. So you're suggesting that the investment system is MAKING YOU DO SOMETHING YOU DON'T WANT TO DO?

It is up to you. It's an investment system - it's not a gun to your head, or someone holding your dog hostage.

It absolutely is making me do something I don't want to do (in Destiny's case). I had a choice to between grinding and playing the raid, or not grinding and not playing the raid. I did not want to grind, but wanted to play the raid. So I had to grind. Ultimately I'm happy with that since the raid was so cool, but it would have been better had the raid just opened up at level 20, with no real downside.

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No you didn't. I did not grind and I was only a couple days behind you hitting level 26. I could have played the Raid with all the DBO teams in the last week if I had wanted to, with no grinding. What you wanted to do was be one of the first to play the raid. That puts you in a totally different obsessed, speedrun-like category thats different than 99% of Destiny's players.

The only reason you had to grind was so you could be the first to complain about grinding.

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How could you have gotten from level 20 to level 26+ without grinding? If you enjoyed Crucible and played it over and over, that is still grinding (the way I define it anyway). Maybe our definitions of grinding differ?

To me, stretches of replaying content is definitely under the umbrella of grinding. I currently grind occasionally in the Crucible, and I love it now :)

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How could you have gotten from level 20 to level 26+ without grinding? If you enjoyed Crucible and played it over and over, that is still grinding (the way I define it anyway). Maybe our definitions of grinding differ?

They very much differ. To me it's called having fun playing the game. Grinding has all sorts of negatives attached to it. If all you're doing is playing to have fun then you aren't grinding. From Crucible Rank 2.5 to 3 I did grind just a bit because I wanted one specific Crucible Rank 3 gun. But now that I have my gun I just play because playing itself is fun. Iron Banner? I'm playing it because I wanted to see how more or less unbalanced it was. Not because I want some special shader or whatever.

The best example I have of the way I interact with Destiny's investment system is how I've bought three exotic helmets from Xur. I did it by... doing absolutely nothing special. I played the game the way I wanted, then I threw all my strange coins into the vault and was delighted to see I had, completely unintentionally, collected enough to buy any item he was selling. That's the way Destiny should be played, in my opinion. You should let the investment system delight you, not be a slave to it.

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Maybe our definitions of grinding differ?

They very much differ. To me it's called having fun playing the game.

Grinding to you is playing the game in order to have fun? I think we have the same definition actually . . .

The best example I have of the way I interact with Destiny's investment system is how I've bought three exotic helmets from Xur. I did it by... doing absolutely nothing special. I played the game the way I wanted, then I threw all my strange coins into the vault and was delighted to see I had, completely unintentionally, collected enough to buy any item he was selling.

I think we might resolve our differences by understanding that you have been incredibly lucky with regard to what the games gives you. I'm just speculating here, but the fact that you have been able to buy three helmets from Xur means that you have gotten much better drops and rewards than I have. After 3 weeks of playing I was able to get one item from Xur, and after 5 days following that of playing every day, I have earned 2 Strange coins. linky

Now either, you have been putting in significantly more hours than me, or you have lucked out more when it comes to rewards/drops. If either is the case, I'm happy for you, that's really awesome.
If it is the former though, I enjoy building my character more than replaying levels at the moment and that's just a difference of preference. Maybe you prefer playing levels and PvP over building a character. If so then I'm sure you would be just as happy playing a game where you were only able to buy one exotic in a month of playing.

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Maybe our definitions of grinding differ?

They very much differ. To me it's called having fun playing the game.

Grinding to you is playing the game in order to have fun? I think we have the same definition actually . . .

Eh. That was badly written on my part. Grinding is replaying content over and over because you have to in order to achieve a goal. It can be fun but generally it is repetitive and annoying. I don't do that. I just play the game the way I want and let whatever rewards come as they may.

The best example I have of the way I interact with Destiny's investment system is how I've bought three exotic helmets from Xur. I did it by... doing absolutely nothing special. I played the game the way I wanted, then I threw all my strange coins into the vault and was delighted to see I had, completely unintentionally, collected enough to buy any item he was selling.

I think we might resolve our differences by understanding that you have been incredibly lucky with regard to what the games gives you. I'm just speculating here, but the fact that you have been able to buy three helmets from Xur means that you have gotten much better drops and rewards than I have. After 3 weeks of playing I was able to get one item from Xur, and after 5 days following that of playing every day, I have earned 2 Strange coins. linky

It is much more likely time put in than extraordinary luck. I don't believe the random rewards are good enough on my end or bad enough on yours to make a big difference.

My point is you shouldn't worry about what you have or are able to buy. Playing a FPS to... buy an in-game helmet is silly. You should be playing because playing is fun. Ignore any quest or bounty or challenge that tries to make you do something you don't want to. And then be delighted when you do get something neat. I throw most of my stuff in the vault so I don't have to think about it. I check back every once in a while to see if I have enough stuff to upgrade something. Doesn't that sound so much better than replaying something over and over because you don't have enough reputation to start earning enough currency to buy an item in a couple of weeks?

Yes, with my way you'll end up a bit behind some people, I wasn't near ready to do the Vault of Glass day one minute one, but I didn't do something I didn't want to do either. Ultimately, who comes out ahead, the one who turns what should be an enjoyable activity (playing video games) into a grind by doing something he doesn't want to do and complaining about it or the person who has fun the entire time and gets around to the longer term challenges a couple of weeks later?

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It is much more likely time put in than extraordinary luck. I don't believe the random rewards are good enough on my end or bad enough on yours to make a big difference.

Let's find out. Can you link your character on B.Net? How many hours do you have logged?

My point is you shouldn't worry about what you have or are able to buy. Playing a FPS to... buy an in-game helmet is silly.

Uh, I find that fun. You can have the opinion that building a badass character isn't fun, but please don't call what I enjoy silly. It gives me the sads.

Ultimately, who comes out ahead, the one who turns what should be an enjoyable activity (playing video games) into a grind by doing something he doesn't want to do and complaining about it or the person who has fun the entire time and gets around to the longer term challenges a couple of weeks later?

You are grossly misrepresenting how and why I play the game. See above.

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It is much more likely time put in than extraordinary luck. I don't believe the random rewards are good enough on my end or bad enough on yours to make a big difference.

Let's find out. Can you link your character on B.Net? How many hours do you have logged?

Uh. No idea. A lot of hours I'm sure. Is this link good enough to find out?

My point is you shouldn't worry about what you have or are able to buy. Playing a FPS to... buy an in-game helmet is silly.

Uh, I find that fun. You can have the opinion that building a badass character isn't fun, but please don't call what I enjoy silly. It gives me the sads.

I like getting new gear and even buying new stuff, but it isn't the point of the game even though many people treat Destiny as if it is.

Ultimately, who comes out ahead, the one who turns what should be an enjoyable activity (playing video games) into a grind by doing something he doesn't want to do and complaining about it or the person who has fun the entire time and gets around to the longer term challenges a couple of weeks later?

You are grossly misrepresenting how and why I play the game. See above.

It's not a hard question. Were you having fun the entire time you were saving up for your badass character? If not then something is wrong. Maybe it's the investment system, but in my view it is more likely the person who chases after the investment system since in my view the base game of shooting aliens is in itself fun.

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How many hours do you have logged?

Uh. No idea. A lot of hours I'm sure. Is this link good enough to find out?

Hhm, it's a hard question because I'm guessing you traded items around with your characters? Your Warlock at 18 hours played has a significant gear loadout though, and it looks like at least one armor piece purchased from the Vanguard? Eh, it's a bad comparison because I have one main character that I am putting my time into.

That does make me think though. If to get the experience I want (what you have had with the ability to build your character) I need to put in the amount of time you have, maybe Destiny isn't the game for me. I just don't think I enjoy replaying stuff as much as you, so maybe I should put it down for a while. Hhm.

I like getting new gear and even buying new stuff, but it isn't the point of the game even though many people treat Destiny as if it is.

You can have your point and I'll have mine. It's okay for us to each enjoy different things, but there isn't any use in your telling me that the way I enjoy the game isn't the point. I don't care what the point is. I play my way to have fun, just like you play your way to have fun. You and I get fun out of different things.

It's not a hard question. Were you having fun the entire time you were saving up for your badass character? If not then something is wrong. Maybe it's the investment system, but in my view it is more likely the person who chases after the investment system since in my view the base game of shooting aliens is in itself fun.

Yeah, I was pretty much having fun. There are aspects of the game that I don't enjoy, but that is true for every game I will ever play. Look at it this way:

I don't enjoy replaying levels repeatedly (for the various reasons mentioned in the forum).
I enjoy playing the Crucible for an hour or so at a time.
I really enjoy building a badass character.

Therefore, I am willing to do some of the things that aren't fun to get at some of the things that are fun.

There is fun for me in Destiny, but I have to do something I don't enjoy at some point. If I were to just drop the game the moment I had to do something I didn't like, I would have stopped playing a while ago, but I still get enjoyment out of it.

As you can see, your case and my case are extremely different.

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If it is the former though, I enjoy building my character more than replaying levels at the moment and that's just a difference of preference. Maybe you prefer playing levels and PvP over building a character. If so then I'm sure you would be just as happy playing a game where you were only able to buy one exotic in a month of playing.

I think this is kind of where I'm at, and why I'm a little frustrated with the investment system. I want my character/myself to be presented in the world and to other people the way I want to be perceived. This means that a lot of focus goes into getting the right gear that feels appropriate for my character/me. A lot of this stuff seems like it was made harder to achieve for completely trivial reasons. Frankly, I think all shaders should unlock at level 20.

I dunno, I guess I just miss the Halo 2 days where you pick your colors and make an emblem on the first day, and that's who you are. Nobody has to work to present themselves how they want. You can just "be yourself" from the get go.

Reading this thread is giving me a lot of ideas about what I can do to have more fun with the game and spend less time frustrated by the "grind". So thanks for this discussion, and the ideas. I tried to keep uninvested in the investment system (ha), but it just sucked me in. I think in my perspective, on top of the desire for a more suitable character for myself, they've also just made it distracting. Bright shiny gear, good sound feedback, the sense of mystery when deciding an engram... It all FEELS good. It's like I'm exploring s level, thing are going good until I kill an enemy and OH LOOK HOW SHINY I AM COME GET ME I'LL MAYBE GIVE YOU SWEET STUFF. It's not that it's impossible to ignore or disregard... But it stands out so much from the rest of the experience that it just becomes distracting from everything else you want to do.

I guess I just don't like the fact that I feel like I need to actively try not to be too invested in the loot system. But I'm going to experiment with my gaming habits and see if I can't make it more enjoyable for myself.

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after 5 days following that of playing every day, I have earned 2 Strange coins. linky

I have the same 4 strange coins I had the last time we discussed this (a few days ago). For whatever reason, the game doesn't EVER give me strange coins.

As far as I can tell, all that means is that Xur is off-limits to me. I can live with that. :)

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As far as I can tell, all that means is that Xur is off-limits to me. I can live with that. :)

Yeah, I'm not all that upset by it anymore, just a little jealous when other people talk about how much stuff they can buy. Putting more time into the game does seem like a valid path to more coins, but I'm pretty comfortable with my level of playtime now. It's still fun without his shiny yellow items.

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Hey Claude! Xur loves us all, and his currency isn't that hard to get depending on your level. The game should tell you in a tooltip of any given currency the best ways to get it (And it does this a little bit) but here is how I roll:

From the wiki: Completing a weekly Heroic Strike mission will grant the player three (level 22), six (Level 26), or nine (Level 28) Strange Coins.

This is my source of guaranteed coins. I seem to get enough random on top to buy one bit of armor off of Xur a week (Except the first). I believe the difference gets paid out if you do a harder strike after practicing on an easier one.

A month+1 coin of 22 weekly strikes should be enough for one bit of exotic armor, which is all you can equip at a time anyway. I have gold 3 hats this way (One was from an engram I gave him motes of light for which is a good way to spend those, and one was off-class and is in storage).

http://www.bungie.net/en/Legend/2/4611686018428456836/2305843009215624493#gear

28 is gloriously hard, I was in a group of a 27,27 and a 26 on the archon raid the other night and we were stuck for a while. Seems to go that way most weeks but the Legendary Halo guy in me loves hitting a wall and working it for an hour till we crack it, then we dance! With Destiny it has to be done co-op, which should be easy for you being Mr HBO.

All exotic weapons seem to come at random from handing in bounties, so the only way to kind of guarantee them seems to be do bounties. But only do fun ones that stack, some nights I don't do any if I'm not in the mood for the relevant activity. (And some exotic weapons bounties take weeks to complete).

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How could you have gotten from level 20 to level 26+ without grinding? If you enjoyed Crucible and played it over and over, that is still grinding (the way I define it anyway). Maybe our definitions of grinding differ?

The difference to me comes down to a simple ideal: repetition. In a traditional RPG when you had to grind you had to literally do the same thing for hours on end to get to the next level. In Destiny, I can choose to play a few strikes, complete the daily story mission, and then jump in the Crucible for the remainder of my time and I will get rewarded in one way or another for my time, whatever I do. In a Final Fantasy game however, if I rushed through the story as quickly as I could without stopping to level throughout I would have to spend hours fighting AI monsters. That's literally the only option. I can't even replay a mission, I just have to get in random battles, preferably in an area with the highest level monsters I can kill to maximize efficiency. That's a big part of the reason I don't play classic RPGs anymore.

You CAN grind in Destiny, but my character is level 29 and I have never once played longer than I wanted to play. That would be almost completely impossible if the game REQUIRED grinding.

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I replied to Ragashingo and we agreed, our definitions of grinding differ. I call repeated play of the same exact encounters grinding, and neither him nor you do.

To me, grinding is required because I call that repetition that you mentioned grinding. I would not be replaying story missions like I am now unless I was getting something out of it. I would replay the Crucible, but I would become a chore after an hour or two of straight play. That's just me.

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No you didn't. I did not grind and I was only a couple days behind you hitting level 26. I could have played the Raid with all the DBO teams in the last week if I had wanted to, with no grinding.

I think it's entirely possible we just have different definitions of grinding.

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I think the difference in opinion here boils down to people who have no problem with the hunt (i.e. grind) and people who like instant gratification.

I can go and freeze my butt off sitting in a tree stand for hours (the grind) for the chance that a deer comes my way and I get to grill some delicious backstrap (the loot). Alternately, I can drive over to a steakhouse and have a nice steak in 20 minutes. Which is better and more enjoyable? There's some people who would never sit in the stand, and others who enjoy their time there. Would it be nice if that deer showed up as soon as you sat down and stood still right in front of you? Sure, but then you're missing out on the thrill and anticipation. Same thing if you just go get the steak, but for some people the steak is all they want. You seem to be a steak guy. That's cool, but some folks (oddly to your viewpoint) enjoy that time in the stand.

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I think the difference in opinion here boils down to people who have no problem with the hunt (i.e. grind) and people who like instant gratification.

I can go and freeze my butt off sitting in a tree stand for hours (the grind) for the chance that a deer comes my way and I get to grill some delicious backstrap (the loot). Alternately, I can drive over to a steakhouse and have a nice steak in 20 minutes. Which is better and more enjoyable? There's some people who would never sit in the stand, and others who enjoy their time there. Would it be nice if that deer showed up as soon as you sat down and stood still right in front of you? Sure, but then you're missing out on the thrill and anticipation. Same thing if you just go get the steak, but for some people the steak is all they want. You seem to be a steak guy. That's cool, but some folks (oddly to your viewpoint) enjoy that time in the stand.

One problem with this for me: the steak is its own reward. Loot in any game is only useful for playing the game. You a get a better gun in Destiny so that you can shoot enemies more efficiently for the purpose of getting an even better gun for the same purpose. Is there an endpoint?

If you're enjoying the grind itself, then perhaps it's not a grind. But if it is, there is no point in playing. Whereas the hunter freezing his butt off in a tree will have something to show for it when his grind is over.

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I think the difference in opinion here boils down to people who have no problem with the hunt (i.e. grind) and people who like instant gratification.

So, essentially, they have a character flaw.

I can go and freeze my butt off sitting in a tree stand for hours (the grind) for the chance that a deer comes my way and I get to grill some delicious backstrap (the loot). Alternately, I can drive over to a steakhouse and have a nice steak in 20 minutes. Which is better and more enjoyable? There's some people who would never sit in the stand, and others who enjoy their time there. Would it be nice if that deer showed up as soon as you sat down and stood still right in front of you? Sure, but then you're missing out on the thrill and anticipation. Same thing if you just go get the steak, but for some people the steak is all they want. You seem to be a steak guy. That's cool, but some folks (oddly to your viewpoint) enjoy that time in the stand.

That is a bad analogy because it doesn't reflect what is happening in the game.

An analogy that better fits what's happening in Destiny is...

A big Harry Potter fan is told that Deathly Hallows is out. Goes to the shop and asks for a copy, is told, "Can't have one, got to level up first, read first 6 chapters of each book twenty times and read thirty unique paragraphs where Hermione is upset about Harry or Ron. Also find and read every sentence with the word Slytherin in it twelve times. Anyone who just reads the previous books twenty times is cheating and measures will be put in place to prevent cheating.

Should fan say, "WTF? Can't I just buy and read it?" other fans accuse fan of character flaw.

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'Cause yours sure wasn't anything resembling Destiny, either...

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How so?

Arbitrary restriction: check
Doing things that a reader of HP books would do but not naturally (pieces of the natural experience but in arbitrary combinations): check

Don't just say it isn't a good fit because you leave nothing to respond to.

No it's not!

Yes it is!

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I fully expect you to disagree in some nitpick-y way, but here's the easy two:

1. Having to read previous books to read a new book doesn't make sense as you didn't have to play previous games to play Destiny.
2. Having read certain parts over and over doesn't make sense because one could play each Story Mission and Strike exactly once, in their proper order, and still reach the required level to play all of Destiny by earning experience in the Crucible.

Destiny isn't perfect, but damn, your analogy was terrible. Now you have me a bit angry because we both know what you wrote isn't worth defending, yet you still tried. :/

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I fully expect you to disagree in some nitpick-y way, but here's the easy two:

1. Having to read previous books to read a new book doesn't make sense as you didn't have to play previous games to play Destiny.

You are the one who is nit picking. It is not possible to read parts of the Deathly Hallows book before you are allowed to read it so, of course, I have to give tasks that use the previous books. DUH!

The point, that you are trying so hard to miss, is that you are given arbitrary tasks that are related to what a HP fan would do anyway but in a fashion that is contrived.

But if you prefer to nit pick instead then go ahead.

2. Having read certain parts over and over doesn't make sense because one could play each Story Mission and Strike exactly once, in their proper order, and still reach the required level to play all of Destiny by earning experience in the Crucible.

You get all the ascendant shards, coins, motes? In what time interval?

Should I change the analogy to say: read all the previous books once then read your favorite book 200 times?

Destiny isn't perfect, but damn, your analogy was terrible. Now you have me a bit angry because we both know what you wrote isn't worth defending, yet you still tried. :/

Well I am dealing with someone who is being deliberately obtuse. No analogy would be acceptable to someone with that frame of mind.

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I fully expect you to disagree in some nitpick-y way, but here's the easy two:

1. Having to read previous books to read a new book doesn't make sense as you didn't have to play previous games to play Destiny.

You are the one who is nit picking. It is not possible to read parts of the Deathly Hallows book before you are allowed to read it so, of course, I have to give tasks that use the previous books. DUH!

I don't understand. Why is it ok for you to make up a secnario that is completely unlike reality? Nobody was prevented from playing Destiny. Your analogy would work better if you let them buy the book but said they couldn't read the end until they did things.

2. Having to read certain parts over and over doesn't make sense because one could play each Story Mission and Strike exactly once, in their proper order, and still reach the required level to play all of Destiny by earning experience in the Crucible.

You get all the ascendant shards, coins, motes? In what time interval?

It'll take longer, probably. But, a big part of your analogy was about rereading parts and reading parts out of order, which you do not have to do in the Destiny equivalent of Missions and Strikes. That you're falling back to "In what time interval" is very telling. Certainly, your analogy had more problems than leaving me nothing to respond to. :)

Should I change the analogy to say: read all the previous books once then read your favorite book 200 times?

Nah, doesn't quite work. A crucible match isn't long enough to really equal a whole book. Favorite chapter maybe?

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what if he had to:

freeze his butt off in a freezer 100 times
shoot 100 sheep, 200 squirrels, and 500 mice
eat 500 steaks of venison
buy and dismantle 20 rifles

all before he would be granted a license to shoot a deer. ;-)

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- No text -

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Many millions of copies of that game were sold - there is really NO generalization you can make about why 'we' played the game over and over again that will be accurate. You can speak for yourself - but you absolutely, positively cannot speak for all of us.

I can say with certainty that a reason we played over and over was NOT because we were offered investment rewards - because Halo had none. You can therefore conclude Halo was replayed over and over because the people doing so found it fun for its own sake, in whatever manner they chose to do so.

The only exception was if you were a pro getting paid to play.

And Jones' point was that SOME people DIDN'T play over and over again - but he wanted them to.

I kind of resent that then. I feel like it should be up to me to decide whether to forgo playing a new game (or doing something else) in order to replay an old game.

Isn't it? How many times have people said if you aren't having fun go play something else?!

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Many millions of copies of that game were sold - there is really NO generalization you can make about why 'we' played the game over and over again that will be accurate. You can speak for yourself - but you absolutely, positively cannot speak for all of us.

I can say with certainty that a reason we played over and over was NOT because we were offered investment rewards - because Halo had none. You can therefore conclude Halo was replayed over and over because the people doing so found it fun for its own sake, in whatever manner they chose to do so.

The only exception was if you were a pro getting paid to play.

And Jones' point was that SOME people DIDN'T play over and over again - but he wanted them to.

I kind of resent that then. I feel like it should be up to me to decide whether to forgo playing a new game (or doing something else) in order to replay an old game.

Isn't it? How many times have people said if you aren't having fun go play something else?!

Didn't play Destiny yesterday. Won't play it today, I'll play it saturday if I get one more for the hard mode group. Probably won't play it next week because I'll be playing Golden Wake and Sherlock Holmes.

I am playing something else. Right now I've run out of fun in Destiny.

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But you still complain about it... So how about go have fun playing something else and leave those of us having fun playing Destiny alone?

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But you still complain about it... So how about go have fun playing something else and leave those of us having fun playing Destiny alone?

There is a thread not that far down about Bungie reading DBO.

I complain about it because I care about Bungie, and the future of Destiny since there's a lot of good inside the game. If nobody complained, you wouldn't be getting opt-in chat, better engram decoding, etc.

I've played a lot of bad games, but I don't go on their fan forums and complain. I don't care about them.

I ultimately want to convince players, journalists, and developers to start thinking more critically about their game design choices. I'm not talking about JUST investment systems, but any number of the topics I write about. I think many people here enjoy reading stuff like that. I know several people at Bungie and former Bungie employees do - they have told me.

I'm not complaining just to complain.

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I enjoy some aspects of the investment system, but it has set up a debate in my head when I play. I do have to ask myself more often whether I'm enjoying this. I gave up on that stupid fusion rifle bounty because I don't have a rifle powerful enough to get consistent double-kills with it. The frustration overwhelmed the fun. I stopped. I was able to.

I don't agree with your points 100%, but I've been thinking about criticism and how constructive it can be. Seems to me that you're not as dismissive of those who disagree with you, but maybe I've just gotten used to your style. But about the role of criticism, since playing the Raid, I've been thinking a lot about Luke Smith and how the Raid, which is one of the most enjoyable and unique gaming experiences I've ever had, came to be. Luke, back when he was a game journalist, savaged Halo 2. Bungie listened. 10 years later, we got the Raid. Here's to the critics!

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I enjoy some aspects of the investment system, but it has set up a debate in my head when I play. I do have to ask myself more often whether I'm enjoying this. I gave up on that stupid fusion rifle bounty because I don't have a rifle powerful enough to get consistent double-kills with it.

I promise you do.

Load up the first moon story mission, and play until you get to the 'We've woken the Hive!" part. If you play it on a low level, pretty much any fusion rifle can cut through the waves of thrall 2 at a time. Just keep doign that till you run out of thrall, then die to the knight, and you spawn again.

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I enjoy some aspects of the investment system, but it has set up a debate in my head when I play. I do have to ask myself more often whether I'm enjoying this. I gave up on that stupid fusion rifle bounty because I don't have a rifle powerful enough to get consistent double-kills with it.

I promise you do.

Load up the first moon story mission, and play until you get to the 'We've woken the Hive!" part. If you play it on a low level, pretty much any fusion rifle can cut through the waves of thrall 2 at a time. Just keep doign that till you run out of thrall, then die to the knight, and you spawn again.

I thought of that, actually. Didn't sound like much fun, so I didn't do it.

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Much more fun to kneecap everyone and then mop up with the Fusion rifle after they are down to a sliver.

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But you still complain about it... So how about go have fun playing something else and leave those of us having fun playing Destiny alone?

Broken record complaints are one thing, but well constructed criticisms I think are beneficial in general for people who have a desire for the game to be better. Which I think Cody does want that. He is a bit repetitive though ;)

I think most people here that complain do want the game to be better. Bungie does occasionally look here, which makes this a decent place to voice concerns and to suggest improvements.

EDIT: Cody beat me to it

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But you still complain about it... So how about go have fun playing something else and leave those of us having fun playing Destiny alone?

Why is there a highly vocal group of people in this community that are completely unwilling to tolerate negative opinions about this game? Is it so difficult to understand that those of us who dislike aspects of Destiny complain because we want the game to improve and we know Bungie reads these forums?!

I find it ironic that several members of DBO, myself included, have been regularly criticized for spreading negativity and "making the people who like Destiny feel bad about liking it". (Which is absurd, by the way.) Yet when someone has a negative POV, that's not allowed and they should just shut up and play something else?

How is that not the exact same thing you accuse us of doing to you?

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But you still complain about it... So how about go have fun playing something else and leave those of us having fun playing Destiny alone?

Why is there a highly vocal group of people in this community that are completely unwilling to tolerate negative opinions about this game? Is it so difficult to understand that those of us who dislike aspects of Destiny complain because we want the game to improve and we know Bungie reads these forums?!

I find it ironic that several members of DBO, myself included, have been regularly criticized for spreading negativity and "making the people who like Destiny feel bad about liking it". (Which is absurd, by the way.) Yet when someone has a negative POV, that's not allowed and they should just shut up and play something else?

How is that not the exact same thing you accuse us of doing to you?

Which specific person(s) are you referring to in this specific instance? Rice? If so, I don't mind his Destiny-hate, I mind how wrong most of his post was. Claude's contribution is one of the best retorts, have you not read it yet.

As far as you, I stopped taking you seriously when you declared Destiny "a deeply flawed game" (a crappy gamer-zeitgeist phrase if I ever heard one) one or two days after it was out. So far, no reason to put on you back on my "worth reading" list.

Here's a thing, car; I can't think of many groups that like it when a new person vists and starts dictating to them what's true and what isn't, constantly, under the guise of "fairness."

This isn't a university class or a debate contest. Think of DBO as more Claude's living room, or perhaps a local pub. You're the borish new person insisting we discuss politics or religion, while everyone else is looking to have a new time and see where the night takes us.

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Which specific person(s) are you referring to in this specific instance? Rice? If so, I don't mind his Destiny-hate, I mind how wrong most of his post was. Claude's contribution is one of the best retorts, have you not read it yet.

I'm not going to identify specific people by name any more. That only leads to flame wars, unhappiness, and bans.

As far as you, I stopped taking you seriously when you declared Destiny "a deeply flawed game" (a crappy gamer-zeitgeist phrase if I ever heard one) one or two days after it was out. So far, no reason to put on you back on my "worth reading" list.

It's silly to write someone off because of a single phrase they used. At any rate, I elaborated extensively (perhaps too much) on the reasons why I believe Destiny is deeply flawed.

Here's a thing, car; I can't think of many groups that like it when a new person vists and starts dictating to them what's true and what isn't, constantly, under the guise of "fairness."

This isn't a university class or a debate contest. Think of DBO as more Claude's living room, or perhaps a local pub. You're the borish new person insisting we discuss politics or religion, while everyone else is looking to have a new time and see where the night takes us.

It seems clear to me from the volume of people complaining about aspects of this game that it's not just "borish new people" that want to discuss the game's flaws. Certainly, Cody is not new to this community.

Either way, if you don't like reading the negativity, it seems logical to simply avoid reading the negativity. Nobody is saying you're not allowed to have fun with Destiny.

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It seems clear to me from the volume of people complaining about aspects of this game that it's not just "borish new people" that want to discuss the game's flaws. Certainly, Cody is not new to this community.

I'm not really sure why you're classing all response to the discussion of game flaws in one big pool. Yes, there are people here who've said "go away and leave us alone!" (they don't speak for everyone) and people who've reacted to you, specifically, instead of to what you're saying (though mostly that's AFTER you wore out your welcome the first time)... but the vast majority of criticism here is met with reasonable debate, and your ignoring that fact simply weakens your argument.

There's a difference between expressing a disappointment with the game, and harping on that disappointment in dozens of separate posts. I think if you look at the negative reactions to criticism, you'll find that most of them have inspirations in something other than the criticism itself.

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It's a certain group of people, as I said. It's not the entire forum.

It's enough to make this place less welcoming to newcomers like myself. I'd really like to get off this subject, but regarding my posting negative opinions in dozens of threads (which is somewhat exaggerated), I never felt that anything I had to say was off-topic until people began to complain about it. I always tried to address the issue posed in the OP, and usually what I had to say was negative, but it was at least germane to the topic.

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It's a certain group of people, as I said. It's not the entire forum.

It's enough to make this place less welcoming to newcomers like myself. I'd really like to get off this subject, but regarding my posting negative opinions in dozens of threads (which is somewhat exaggerated), I never felt that anything I had to say was off-topic until people began to complain about it. I always tried to address the issue posed in the OP, and usually what I had to say was negative, but it was at least germane to the topic.

I never said dozens of threads - I said dozens of times. Don't really have the time to back up that claim by going through and quoting all your posts that contain similar criticism, but I'd bet my estimate isn't far off. Whether it was 'dozens' or not is a little bit irrelevant - it was enough that pretty much the entire admin staff worried about what you were doing to the overall tone of the forum.

And it's not about being off-topic - it's about repeating yourself without adding anything new to the discussion. You can be totally on-topic and STILL annoying. :)

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And it's not about being off-topic - it's about repeating yourself without adding anything new to the discussion. You can be totally on-topic and STILL annoying. :)

*cough KORHAL

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But you still complain about it... So how about go have fun playing something else and leave those of us having fun playing Destiny alone?

Why is there a highly vocal group of people in this community that are completely unwilling to tolerate negative opinions about this game? Is it so difficult to understand that those of us who dislike aspects of Destiny complain because we want the game to improve and we know Bungie reads these forums?!

I find it ironic that several members of DBO, myself included, have been regularly criticized for spreading negativity and "making the people who like Destiny feel bad about liking it". (Which is absurd, by the way.) Yet when someone has a negative POV, that's not allowed and they should just shut up and play something else?

How is that not the exact same thing you accuse us of doing to you?

Obviously, you never understood that it wasn't your opinion but the way you expressed it (combined with your tendency to make everything into a critique of people here) that got you into trouble.

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Don't make this about me. I'm making an observation about the community as a whole.

My short temper was borne of my frustration with this exact problem. I didn't start out that way. I'm not passing my behavior off on other people, but the constant stifling of criticism did frustrate me immensely.

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No one here is trying to snuff out criticism.

Here is one example:

You've seen many, many people agree with the notion that the narrative in destiny is weak, lacking, unfinished, shit, or whatever descriptor you want to use. The founder of this site even said that much.

The difference is, that they express that sentiment once or twice, and move on to something else.

This brings me to my question:

Are you still playing Destiny?

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Not on a regular basis. I pop in for PvP every now and then, and I've actually been going hard on Iron Banner for the past few hours, which is what motivated me to stop by DBO... but I don't play the game much beyond that.

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Not on a regular basis. I pop in for PvP every now and then, and I've actually been going hard on Iron Banner for the past few hours, which is what motivated me to stop by DBO... but I don't play the game much beyond that.

Ok, so what is bringing you back to PvP at this point? Is it just to try out Iron Banner? Or is there a different reason?

I'm essentially trying to understand why someone who is vocally not a fan of the game, still playing it.

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As I've said before, I enjoy the moment-to-moment gunplay, and I also enjoy PvP even though it has a number of irritating balance issues. I take issue with the lack of story, the lack of variety in story missions and Strikes, the repetitiveness and tedium of story missions and Strikes, and the player investment system.

You make the mistake of assuming that I hate Destiny. I do not hate Destiny. It has an excellent foundation, but it just fails to realize its potential. I am a fan of Destiny's foundation and I want to see the game grow into what it can be with the right adjustments and content additions.

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Why is there a highly vocal group of people in this community that are completely unwilling to tolerate negative opinions about this game? Is it so difficult to understand that those of us who dislike aspects of Destiny complain because we want the game to improve and we know Bungie reads these forums?!

I don't find any of it as intolerant. There is a discussion going on in this forum right now about the differing opinions about investment systems and grinding. People disagreeing is not a problem. Someone said "this is a flaw in the game" and someone basically responded with "I don't think it is and here's why." This has been no different than the inverse of: "I really like this feature" and "I don't agree and here's why."

What needs to stop on both sides is stop taking it like a personal insult! We are on here to discuss. Part of that discussion will be disagreements about what's fun and what's not, which is a completely opinionated idea! If ANYONE expects to express their opinion and get no dissenting opinions then you are CRAZY!

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But you still complain about it... So how about go have fun playing something else and leave those of us having fun playing Destiny alone?

Why is there a highly vocal group of people in this community that are completely unwilling to tolerate negative opinions about this game? Is it so difficult to understand that those of us who dislike aspects of Destiny complain because we want the game to improve and we know Bungie reads these forums?!

I find it ironic that several members of DBO, myself included, have been regularly criticized for spreading negativity and "making the people who like Destiny feel bad about liking it". (Which is absurd, by the way.) Yet when someone has a negative POV, that's not allowed and they should just shut up and play something else?

How is that not the exact same thing you accuse us of doing to you?

I think the Queen of the Reef said it best: "Often when we guess at others motives we reveal only our own." It's funny how intolerant of negative opinions about negative opinions you are. You keep criticizing this "vocal group of people" but never naming them. I don't think the group of people you keep referring to actually exists. I've got to be one of the most "intolerant" people here in that I'll enter into running disagreements with some posters who post consistently negative opinions and yet I agree with everyone else that Destiny has some serious flaws that make it far less of a game than it should have been.

My admittedly harsh advice to people who have ragged on Destiny for years is to stop playing it if they aren't having fun and stop complaining about it if they aren't playing it. My advice to you is to stop criticizing this community (with vague, blanket accusations no less!) and... heh... start criticizing the game. You'll get a lot more support for the latter than the former. :)

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Experience dictates otherwise.

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The reason people use those "vague, blanket accusations" isn't because they CAN'T name names. It's because it's considered rude to do so. I, for one, can think of two very specific people off the top of my head who, whenever they see Cody has posted something, seem to immediately try to post something countering it without actually processing what he's saying at all.

TBH, while I do think Cody's sometimes (often, even) too unequivocal with his phrasing, I actually am much more annoyed lately by the knee-jerk reactions to his posts, most of which basically equate to "you have a different opinion than me, so please stop saying your opinion." I think if one were to read Cody's posts carefully, they'd notice that while he's often very set on his opinion and argues for it as far and as long as possible, he rarely if ever suggests that his opponent should just shut up.

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The reason people use those "vague, blanket accusations" isn't because they CAN'T name names. It's because it's considered rude to do so. I, for one, can think of two very specific people off the top of my head who, whenever they see Cody has posted something, seem to immediately try to post something countering it without actually processing what he's saying at all.

TBH, while I do think Cody's sometimes (often, even) too unequivocal with his phrasing, I actually am much more annoyed lately by the knee-jerk reactions to his posts, most of which basically equate to "you have a different opinion than me, so please stop saying your opinion." I think if one were to read Cody's posts carefully, they'd notice that while he's often very set on his opinion and argues for it as far and as long as possible, he rarely if ever suggests that his opponent should just shut up.

Another point is that even though he may be riding the same hobby horse, he's an interesting and articulate writer, who can dress it up and make it seem as if today he is riding a camel. I'm more bothered by boring rote repetition. Add in some boorishness, and I'm really annoyed.

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The reason people use those "vague, blanket accusations" isn't because they CAN'T name names. It's because it's considered rude to do so.

I suppose I find it rude for someone to be ambiguous. I'd much rather have directness and clarity.

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“I think the great tragedy of Halo is that for years and years it provided wonderful single-player and co-op content, and we provided people with almost no fun incentives or excuses, almost no reason besides their own enjoyment, to go back and replay it. So Halo 1 built these 10 labor of love missions, and only if you decided to go back and replay them was there any incentive to do so.

“If I would have done anything to Halo 1, it would have been to do something to draw people back into those experiences that they enjoyed the first time. Even in the smallest ways, just to give them an excuse to get together and do it again.”

There it is.
That's what made Destiny how it is. A complete apparent lack of understanding of why we who played Halo went back and played Halo again and again. Because it was fun. Not because we needed an incentive to get Marks or Engrams or Faction Rep. But because it was fun.

I don't even understand how they missed that.

You quote it and you don't even fucking read it. Here, let me try and help you:

... almost no reason besides their own enjoyment ...

Do I need to define enjoyment for you? He totally acknowledges you.

All that Destiny does with it's leveling and bounties and rpg-ness and whatever isn't meant to take away that '30 seconds of fun' but to simply...

... give them an excuse to get together and do it again.

For everyone outside the small percent of people who played it like it was a second job.

It's not perfect in it's execution by a long way. But we all acknowledge that.

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I can't speak for everyone, but I have no problem with the investment system in itself.

I have a problem with many of the activities the investment system is supposed to "give you an excuse" to go back to because many of them are bland, forgettable experiences that I, and I imagine many other people would not otherwise go back to.

Investment system for PvP? Great, each match is a new experience.

Investment system for raids? Great, it's interesting content from what I've heard. Haven't experienced it myself.

Investment system for strikes? Well, alright. The heroic/nightfall modifiers make them challenging enough to be fun for now.

Investment system for the phoned-in half-assed attempt at storytelling that feels like it only exists to show off the skyboxes and environments you're going to spend the next few years re-running? This is where I have an issue, especially because of the comparison Jones makes to the Halo's campaign.

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Investment system for the phoned-in half-assed attempt at storytelling that feels like it only exists to show off the skyboxes and environments you're going to spend the next few years re-running? This is where I have an issue, especially because of the comparison Jones makes to the Halo's campaign.

I ran through the missions, in order, the first time, by myself, so I could listen to the exposition and get a sense for the story. (Yes, I agree with a large number of people that the story is pretty weak at this stage. That's irrelevant to what I'm getting at here.)

After the first run-through, the storytelling wasn't what made me interested in replays - even the investment system wasn't REALLY what made me interested (though definitely when I'm having trouble picking the next place to go, a bounty will sway me to one mission over another). What made me interested was seeing how I could improve on my performance - I go back to the Archive and try to see if I can finish it without dying, or without taking damage, or without getting bracketed by invisible vandals, or without rockets, or with special weapons only, or WHATEVER. I don't give a crap that the 'story' elements (which I've heard a dozen times) are weak - because I'm not paying attention to them any more.

Yes, if I play a section exactly the same way as I did before, it becomes repetitive, because there's not a huge variation in where the enemies come from. (In fact, there may be none.) But I DON'T play it exactly the same way - and MY movement, and weapon choices, and order of attack, affects THEIR movement and actions, and new interplays open up. And personally, I find that really fun.

I'm still working on a technique for beating Draksis solo, when he's a level above me. I haven't figured it out yet - 2 or 3 people, it's no problem, but alone, in a small locked room... he kicks my ass every time, no matter what I try. Which makes me try new things. Eventually I'll figure it out. (Or get to a place where he CAN'T be a level above me, I guess.)

Personally, I find that really fun.

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Have you tried not going all the way in the room? The door stays open. He eventually comes to the doorway to shoot you, and from there it was just shoot, take cover to recover, then shoot some more. Easy with two, seems possible with one.

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Should I try it again?

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Should I try it again?

I would take a couple of shots at him, and he'd retreat behind cover. I could clear out a bunch of the little stuff (and even the two Kell's Guard that would hide in the back of the room, if my grenade throws were accurate enough), but Draksis would just stay where he was until I came in to the room. (Even went away and ate dinner once, came back, he was still hiding.)

So I'd play with the 'step in far enough to trigger the music then jump out' idea until I managed to get OUTSIDE the door as it closed. At which point it wouldn't reopen. (Went all the way back out of the Ketch, to the ground, and back in. Nothing I did would reopen the door, though I could spawn every group of enemies on the way.)

I'm surprised it worked for Kermit.

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Should I try it again?

I would take a couple of shots at him, and he'd retreat behind cover. I could clear out a bunch of the little stuff (and even the two Kell's Guard that would hide in the back of the room, if my grenade throws were accurate enough), but Draksis would just stay where he was until I came in to the room. (Even went away and ate dinner once, came back, he was still hiding.)

So I'd play with the 'step in far enough to trigger the music then jump out' idea until I managed to get OUTSIDE the door as it closed. At which point it wouldn't reopen. (Went all the way back out of the Ketch, to the ground, and back in. Nothing I did would reopen the door, though I could spawn every group of enemies on the way.)

I'm surprised it worked for Kermit.

It worked, but only with two people, and it's possible that my friend went and died first. I can't recall. I was surprised that Draksis made himself so shootable by presenting himself at the door like that. Short work.

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It worked, but only with two people, and it's possible that my friend went and died first. I can't recall. I was surprised that Draksis made himself so shootable by presenting himself at the door like that. Short work.

Yeah with two people I've found it's a great strategy for one person to stay in the hallway, but with one you can only get at most 4-5 sniper shots before he hides.

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Sounds like Mr. Draksis said, "Let him come in here and shoot at me? Screw that. Someone lock the door." :p

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My six-year-old said, "Dad, I like playing Destiny, but when can we play a level on Halo 3 again?"

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My six-year-old said, "Dad, I like playing Destiny, but when can we play a level on Halo 3 again?"

Your kid is cool.

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“I think the great tragedy of Halo is that for years and years it provided wonderful single-player and co-op content, and we provided people with almost no fun incentives or excuses, almost no reason besides their own enjoyment, to go back and replay it. So Halo 1 built these 10 labor of love missions, and only if you decided to go back and replay them was there any incentive to do so.

I don't get it. Is that supposed to be a bad thing or a good thing in his book? Some of the most replayable games I've experienced were the ones that were the most fun to play. Pretty much any Nintendo-developed game, especially the Super Mario and Mario Kart series, Super Metroid, A Link to the Past, Donkey Kong Country, Star Fox 64, and F-Zero, have been immensely replayable without modern carrot-and-stick/Skinner box methods to entice me to come back, and it's why Nintendo remains to this day my favorite game company. As for non-Nintendo games, the Halo trilogy plus ODST & Reach, Perfect Dark, the classic Mega Man and Mega Man X series, Genesis-era Sonic, Final Fantasy IV, Blaster Master, Gradius, Contra, and even more recent games like BioShock and Gears of War are all games I've played through many times, not because I felt like I had to because of some player investment system (they didn't have those... well, Reach sort of did, but it was for aesthetic items only), but because the game was that damn good. If your game is good, people will come back to it over and over. And that's a good thing. It's the way things should be, always.

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If your game is good, people will come back to it over and over. And that's a good thing. It's the way things should be, always.

Again (at the risk of repeating myself and becoming annoying), Jones was lamenting the fact that for a lot of people (not you, obviously, or me, but many, many others) there WASN'T anything pulling them back to Halo. They played it, they finished it, probably they even enjoyed it, they moved on to other games. It was good, but they didn't come back.

THOSE are the people he wanted to reach. Not you. Not me. He'd already reached us. :)

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Again (at the risk of repeating myself and becoming annoying), Jones was lamenting the fact that for a lot of people (not you, obviously, or me, but many, many others) there WASN'T anything pulling them back to Halo. They played it, they finished it, probably they even enjoyed it, they moved on to other games. It was good, but they didn't come back.

THOSE are the people he wanted to reach. Not you. Not me. He'd already reached us. :)

Are there really that many gamers out there that didn't really replay anything — just one and done and that's it — until developers started adding Skinner boxes, investment systems, or whatever you want to call them into the mix? That's... kind of sad, really, if it's true. If you told me that a decade ago, it would have come across as a totally alien concept to me. But I guess when you have people who play COD and grind all the way to 50, only to Prestige and voluntarily repeat that process again and again and again, it makes a sick sort of sense. COD didn't get popular until it started adding Skinner box crap to it, so maybe there really were that many people who need a carrot dangled in front of them to get them motivated, rather than the promise of a great gameplay experience and a real feeling of accomplishment.

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Again (at the risk of repeating myself and becoming annoying), Jones was lamenting the fact that for a lot of people (not you, obviously, or me, but many, many others) there WASN'T anything pulling them back to Halo. They played it, they finished it, probably they even enjoyed it, they moved on to other games. It was good, but they didn't come back.

THOSE are the people he wanted to reach. Not you. Not me. He'd already reached us. :)

Are there really that many gamers out there that didn't really replay anything — just one and done and that's it — until developers started adding Skinner boxes, investment systems, or whatever you want to call them into the mix? That's... kind of sad, really, if it's true. If you told me that a decade ago, it would have come across as a totally alien concept to me. But I guess when you have people who play COD and grind all the way to 50, only to Prestige and voluntarily repeat that process again and again and again, it makes a sick sort of sense. COD didn't get popular until it started adding Skinner box crap to it, so maybe there really were that many people who need a carrot dangled in front of them to get them motivated, rather than the promise of a great gameplay experience and a real feeling of accomplishment.

Times and demographics are changing. My evidence is anecdotal at best but I've seen plenty of people who would one and done a game only to trade it in. People would also complain about games being short or having no incentive to keep playing once it has been beaten. If the game has a carrot dangling in front of them though and they get hooked, they are more likely to keep the game in the tray longer and continue playing; COD's continued popularity is a great example of how these types of systems work and keep people in the game longer. I mean the existence of achievements and trophies proves this too. How many people did you see play games quickly, even bad ones, for the achievement payout and the increasing of their gamer score?

I'm not saying whether or not this is a good thing, just that it definitely happens.

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My evidence is anecdotal at best but I've seen plenty of people who would one and done a game only to trade it in.

I don't see anything necessarily wrong with that. As long as the experience was stimulating and challenging, that's fine. I've completed plenty of great games only once.

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If your game is good, people will come back to it over and over. And that's a good thing. It's the way things should be, always.

Again (at the risk of repeating myself and becoming annoying), Jones was lamenting the fact that for a lot of people (not you, obviously, or me, but many, many others) there WASN'T anything pulling them back to Halo. They played it, they finished it, probably they even enjoyed it, they moved on to other games. It was good, but they didn't come back.

THOSE are the people he wanted to reach. Not you. Not me. He'd already reached us. :)

Imagine you just get done watching a DVD of a film. You enjoy the film, but not enough that you want to watch it again. The person who made the movie tells you "Oh, I want you to spend more time with my movie". How would that make you feel? "Watch my movie again".

See how that's annoying?

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It's more like "Why don't you watch that again, maybe with a few deleted scenes/commentary?" and you are fully capable of politely declining; no need to be annoyed.

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"Why don't you play the Raid? It's the only part of the game with different mechanics! You gotta grind to level up, though!"

"No... Bungie. Plz stawp"

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You didn't keep the movie analogy.

Minus five points.

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Imagine you just get done watching a DVD of a film. You enjoy the film, but not enough that you want to watch it again. The person who made the movie tells you "Oh, I want you to spend more time with my movie". How would that make you feel? "Watch my movie again".

See how that's annoying?

Say you watch the movie Sucker Punch, and you thought it was an alright bit of loud entertainment, if nothing else. Then the person who made it starts bringing up points and hints that you missed the first time while watching the movie, because he wants you to see it from an angle that you hadn't considered.

Then you watch it again, with prior knowledge of what happens, but now you can pay attention to the things you missed the first time, and now you maybe watched the four animated shorts that flesh out certain story bits (DLC!).

Upon a second viewing, you might realize that the story was much deeper than you thought. You might gain a whole new appreciation for the twist that you probably completely missed the first time, and you might actually realize what a brilliant movie it is...

If you had no incentive to watch it again, you'd have missed out on a lot, and you wouldn't have even realized it...

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but if you want to pick up on all those fundamentally important extra points and details you missed the first time you watched the film, you need to go view them on your web browser or companion app! fun!

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but if you want to pick up on all those fundamentally important extra points and details you missed the first time you watched the film, you need to go view them on your web browser or companion app! fun!

God forbid anyone should ever have to take a single extra step to fully appreciate something. Everyone knows that things are only good if they're spoon-fed to us on a silver platter...

And actually, you did have to go to YouTube to view the four animated shorts that explain the context of a number of the scenes. How dare they not include them within the movie itself, along with a running commentary and deleted scenes in theaters...

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Yea... the Grimoire should be in game. Not only is it inconvenient as it is now, but the format is miserably, miserably bad.

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Yea... the Grimoire should be in game. Not only is it inconvenient as it is now, but the format is miserably, miserably bad.

I actually love the Grimoire cards and how they are implemented. IMHO, the problem with the Grimoire cards is not with the Grimoire cards, it's with the lack of narrative in the game that make us hunger for the information that is only in the Grimoire cards.

That's not that I wouldn't think a library in the tower would be cool, if we had one, but it wouldn't be conducive to playing with friends, and everything in Destiny seemed designed to push you in that direction.

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Yea... the Grimoire should be in game. Not only is it inconvenient as it is now, but the format is miserably, miserably bad.

I actually love the Grimoire cards and how they are implemented. IMHO, the problem with the Grimoire cards is not with the Grimoire cards, it's with the lack of narrative in the game that make us hunger for the information that is only in the Grimoire cards.

I'm pretty unhappy that the stats visible on some grimoire cards are not viewable on a computer (OSX, Chrome/Safari/Firefox). I CAN see them on a mobile device, however.

It's unclear to me how this passed QA - I have ZERO control over how these are displayed. (They're not affected by window size, or font size, or anything else I can modify on the client side.) They're broken across the board on all mac browsers I've tried. (I havne't tried PC browsers.)

If you're going to put a chunk of the game somewhere other than the game, you should spend extra effort making sure it works.

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It works for me in multiple versions of IE, but the UI is a nightmare and can be relatively confusing. Navigation between cards is also whack.

Also, I find it interesting that my character won't display on B.net in IE, but apparently it will in Firefox or Chrome.

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I thought i should illustrate the problem.

[image]

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“I think the great tragedy of Halo is that for years and years it provided wonderful single-player and co-op content, and we provided people with almost no fun incentives or excuses, almost no reason besides their own enjoyment, to go back and replay it. So Halo 1 built these 10 labor of love missions, and only if you decided to go back and replay them was there any incentive to do so.

“If I would have done anything to Halo 1, it would have been to do something to draw people back into those experiences that they enjoyed the first time. Even in the smallest ways, just to give them an excuse to get together and do it again.”

There it is.
That's what made Destiny how it is. A complete apparent lack of understanding of why we who played Halo went back and played Halo again and again. Because it was fun. Not because we needed an incentive to get Marks or Engrams or Faction Rep. But because it was fun.

I don't even understand how they missed that.

I don't understand how you missed that the goal is to have that plus more things to draw you in and keep you playing. Someone else probably already said that, but I feel like this thread is probably a mess and some other people told me in fact it is, so I'll just say that and go and maybe poke my head in later.

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The analogies in this thread are annoying as h*ck.

It's a very simple-to-understand dynamic between two different, and arbitrary, styles of game. And it's being obfuscated with wordy analogies.

It's as if you have a physicist trying to explain quantum mechanics to a truck driver. So the physicist comes up with a tenuous analogy using the works of Shakespeare. In order to communicate a concept he knows everything about to someone who knows nothing about it, he ends up using some subject that neither of them know anything about.

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Last year's interview with Jason Jones is a revelation. (Destiny)