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Now I'm confused! :)

What is the confusion/source of the confusion you speak of?

I'll try and replicate some screenshots I have to see if there's any difference. Everything just seems a little bit closer, even the loading screen.

Yeah. There's no way they would change the field of view. Especially without telling anyone!

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For a second there it was like all those times Chaos popped his bladedancer next to me in the crucible. I know you're on my team but you're givin' me a heart-attack, man!

How should I have known? Where did they say that before release? Where did they say anyone not paying for DLC would need to download it (and clog up their hard drive and Internet connection for stuff they can't use)?

How about the dozens of times in interviews when they said that this game would change over time and they had designed it such that they could change it over time. Did you assume they would make it smaller?

They never said they were going make massive, mandatory updates, and none of the updates so far indicated this would happen. The thing about "growing and changing with time" doesn't mean anything anyway, it's clearly marketing speak.

I want to say some things that Ragashingo will think are immature but I'll just reiterate: I shouldn't have to. Why not just make the game reserve all the space it'll ever need when you do the install (and tell you how much that is!) so no one has to do this dance?

How could they possibly know this?

planning? "hey guys, we can't go over this number for patches" "oh OK"
I'm not saying it has to be small or even that reasonable, I just would like it to exist.

...There's payment for the game, payment for the console, payment for Xbox Live, payment for all the auxiliary things like an Internet connection and electricity and a TV, and now this. I just want to play a game on my little game box (and enjoy this update that's supposedly so great), not invest in general-purpose storage so I don't permanently lose things that are currently safe and that I had minimal reason to mess with until now.

Your little game box that is seven years old (and if you bought it seven years ago, you've certainly gotten your money's worth). Your little game box is able to run a state of the art game because the developers cared enough to support your little game box. They compromised so you could play. Memory is relatively cheap and the only way keep your system viable, but it seems you're not willing to compromise on principle because you didn't hear the part about how the game would continue to grow with time?

I'll do it because I bought it and I'm this deep into it and I fortunately don't have to buy anything else for it at present.

How did we get to this? We're at point where PC games are "click a few times, download, click play", or "put in a disk, let it install, click play", or "load up a website, click play", while console games require a disk or a download, an Internet connection, space on what will inevitably become a quite limited hard drive (more so with the new consoles and with Destiny in particular), install time, the blood of nine and a half virgins, and prettified progress bars, until the mandatory update to make the game less broken when you have to repeat two thirds of it over again. Plus you have to wait for the console to start up, and for the game to start up, and for the game to check you're allowed to play and the DLC is in order and other things, before you can start playing. You can do that, or play the other game you want to play, but only once you've bought the new shiny game box that you can't afford for several months, and surprise! it has even more problems. How did we get to a point where PC gaming is (slightly) more convenient and capable than console gaming (and yet somehow less popular and just as expensive to stay current)?

PCs are still more expensive and less convenient, IMHO. [Note the spaces I'm putting between your mounds of text.]

It's a rant, it's immune to your English powers.

I mean heck, backwards compatibility, that's a no-brainer on PC, on consoles people drink the proverbial kool aid of it "holding things back", as if that means something other than "oops, we changed the processor and chipset on a fundamental level, again, and we can't include the old ones even though they're ancient and cheap now because fuck you".

PC gamers have some advantages. Maybe you should consider becoming one.

I'd love to. (Well, maybe not love to, I'm still working on getting some working memory, which I wouldn't be able to use with a new, more worthwhile computer, which we should probably get, but I'd be OK with a PC as the focus of my gaming.) I can't because every new thing I want to play is only on consoles.

Oh and the patch notes say "Improved patch installation process"-- looks the same to me-- and give no hint as to size.

They should tell you. I agree. Wasn't hard to find out, though.

I went and looked and I can't seem to find it. I know you said something about 2.44 GB, and I saw that, but I really doubt that's the same for every platform, just like the game itself and the initial install were all different. Plus that's almost half the size of the current installed content, that's DLC-sized, that makes it seem like they're forcing everyone to download the DLC whether they can access it or not, and they wouldn't do something that du-- no, I know this... they would probably do something that dumb, because if I'm playing this long and jumping through hoops I'll probably keep playing after this. Bungie, now you've got me using Cody Miller logic, are you happy?

I'm getting a headache thinking about all this.
Is this overly dramatic? Probably. Is it too long? That's what she said. Also probably. Do I think I'm justified in being upset? Yes. Do I think I'll still feel justified tomorrow or next week? Yes.

It's your energy you're expending. Keep in mind, though, the game is going to continue to get bigger. Now you know.

I don't know that because no one that actually has any say in it has said so. (I am getting so fucking sick of this lack of communication and people just being OK with it. [To be fair, it's not just Bungie, it's not just game developers, it's everyone, I detest this tight-lipped part of our culture that I discover more and more every year.]) Maybe I'm edging into unreasonable territory, but I have sobering news: there are people out there far less reasonable than me and even dumber than me, and they buy things too (and they vote, but I don't want to give anyone nightmares).

Well, it has been stated from day 0 that Destiny was a "evolving, online-only" game. In these days, it is implicit that constant server-side updates will happen regularly and almost as implicit that client-side will also. As such, you should've expected to download stuff.

Yeah, but not beyond-several-hundred-megabyte stuff, Halo never did that, not under Bungie or... well, crud, Halo 4 kind of did that, but I thought that was 343i being dumb.

On your "lack of transparency" point, I agree with your discomfort (if not anger). The number on the pre-game pop-up SHOULD be the final number, not some milestone that will be transgressed.

Now, one thing I think you should try is to delete every Destiny update you already have installed before installing a new one. Past experiences suggest to me that there is a lot of redundancy in these updates (and for your sake, I certainly hope so), so the final download would probably be less than what you currently have used.

You know, I thought of that, and then I thought I was being dumb. I'll try that, thanks.

PS: Whenever you hit the return key on posts like this, do it twice. Try to train yourself to do it. The lack of tabulation makes most of your post seem like walls, as stated previously. Hitting return twice will at least give us some sort of clearing. :)

I'll try to remember that.

Why not just make the game reserve all the space it'll ever need when you do the install (and tell you how much that is!) so no one has to do this dance?

Because then we could all see the future, and you'd have people bitching about why X game was taking up Y space when it was only using Z. This is a thing that people will do.

¯\°_°/¯ I don't care.

There's payment for the game, payment for the console, payment for Xbox Live, payment for all the auxiliary things like an Internet connection and electricity and a TV, and now this. I just want to play a game on my little game box (and enjoy this update that's supposedly so great), not invest in general-purpose storage so I don't permanently lose things that are currently safe and that I had minimal reason to mess with until now.

Welcome to gaming. It's an expensive hobby.

All the more reason to not make people pay more. I can't afford two hobbies that involve any purchasing, at all, because one of them would be gaming. (Which, OK, that would be a sly way of locking me in, but I don't think they thought that far ahead.)

How did we get to this? We're at point where PC games are "click a few times, download, click play", or "put in a disk, let it install, click play", or "load up a website, click play", while console games require a disk or a download, an Internet connection, space on what will inevitably become a quite limited hard drive (more so with the new consoles and with Destiny in particular), install time, the blood of nine and a half virgins, and prettified progress bars, until the mandatory update to make the game less broken when you have to repeat two thirds of it over again.

Ironically I think you have this completely backwards. My experience with PC gaming was loads of games want an internet connection. Also updated drivers. Also newer (expensive) hardware on a regular basis. Also many compatibility issues.

That's what I'm saying, that's supposed to be where console gaming is stronger, but it's losing that.

Console? Buy game. Insert disc. Install disc. Update game. Play. Done.

You don't see the flaw there? There are one or two steps I don't want to have (install and update). I understand about making the game better and making it run better, but I don't really care to install a game or anything I don't have to unless it's over and done before I have time to really think about it or I can do anything I want in the meantime, and installing on a console fails both points (at least on the 360, I've heard it's better on the newer consoles, but again I can't afford a magic future box yet), and as for updates, part of the problem is that's what alphas and betas are for, and part of it is this "compatibility pack" thing (which I'm not convinced is what this is). That's not an update to improve the game, that's an update just to stop it from being broken, that's not what I'd call a good and wise update-- sure, the game shouldn't be broken, but to devote so much to just that, and content that only certain people will see, seems like a waste of space and time, for the player if not for the developer.

I jumped to consoles specifically because I never wanted to troubleshoot a flipping game and my hardware ever again. I never wanted to have to worry about settings, or quality, or hardware. I just want to play games, not micromanage the behind the scenes.

I've never had to micromanage. The most I've had to do was download a newer engine for Doom and copy some files over, and try to sort things out with what was probably a badly planned multi-game Atari port that's since been discontinued.

And again, you're at this point micromanaging the behind the scenes because you're using a version of the console that's very old. Your solution is simple, and everyone else accepted it a long time ago. The games outgrew the hard drive. You're fighting a losing battle, and no amount of sticking to your principles is going to change that. If this was a PC game, and you didn't have enough space on your ten year old computer to run it, would you still be bitching? Or would you buy more storage, or accept the fact that your computer is maybe a little too old?

I'd probably be complaining about inefficiency. Do you know how big a gigabyte is, really? You could fit tens of thousands of books in that, you could fit thousands of pictures, a couple thousand songs, tens or dozens or even hundreds of thousands of programs from the dawn of the PC era or earlier, but for modern games it might not even be enough for the engine.
Yeah, I know, things progress, things get bigger because they progress, things get bigger because they accumulate inefficiencies, inefficiencies get harder to remove and easier to live with, I still feel like there's this wondrous huge amount we can do now and so much of it is being squandered because we let things bloat until they're uncomfortable or on the verge of being uncomfortable and then try to cut back.

Up until last gen, the console was entirely static. If you bought one on launch day, it'd serve you until the end of the line.

exactly, that's why you'd get a console

Things are different now that we're in the age of big games, cheap storage, and ubiquitous broadband. The launch console will probably take you to the end of the line, but it will not be ideal when you get there. I can guarantee you in a few years we'll have new PS4s and XOnes with storage that make the launch units look laughable.

I won't, I'm getting one soon and I won't get another one unless it breaks.

Now, that update went for an hour, here's-- fucking; how does it have insufficient space? I don't... what. I thought it stalled maybe, but.... I deleted the old updates, I moved things around, I deleted a very large thing, I had 7.5 GB for it to chew up, it was acting fine, it transferred stuff and then it said it was downloading... this is what I'm talking about, this shouldn't happen, on a PC or especially on a console.
Edit: that was after a restart of the update; after being at the dashboard a while it said something downloaded, I restarted again and it's transferring the original large chunk of whatever again
also someone mentioned elsewhere I might need a bit more free space than the size of the update, I should have almost a gigabyte more

I want to say some things that Ragashingo will think are immature...

I agreed with your main point! I said: "Having to download a big update twice can be frustrating..." and "I agree with your point but strongly disagree with the way you chose to make it." Bungie should tell people up front how big each update is. They should do better checking to make sure there is enough space before they start a long download. We agree on those things so don't you dare start talking as if I called your point immature.

It was your posting style and tone that I took issue with.

That's what I was talking about, I was going to use a complaining, angry tone and swear, and decided not to. Admittedly I ended up doing that anyway, but I had intended to have a short, to-the-point post. (side note, in real life, I never swear, because I was raised that way and I have weird anxieties about doing things I don't normally do and holding to it keeps me from possibly saying dumb things around the wrong people, but I realize that words are just words, so I've slowly let myself do it on-line)

If you weren't so busy disagreeing with everybody in sight you might have noticed that I said: "I don't think your immature, complaining tone was necessary or helpful. That's all. :)" But you didn't get that because you never listen to anybody, you never concede a point even when you are clearly wrong, and you always talk way way too much about things you clearly don't understand.

Well now that the gloves are off you bother me too, you seem like a sycophant, mainly for Bungie, and an occasional hypocrite.

Sadly no. It's in the patch notes, I think. Goddamn work firewall! Let me go to Bungie.net!

To me it's easy to hit their precision damage area up close, but at a distance I always have to aim lower than the visuals suggest I should-- still aiming at the white thing, but at the notch in the bottom part of it, and at very long distances I have to aim at where it meets the metal, and even that's not 100% reliable. I have yet to get a single precision kill on a Vex with the throwing knife and I've tried a couple dozen times aiming all up and down their bodies.

Yeah, I cannot reliably get precision kills with the knife against Vex. I've gotten a handful, but they were just dumb luck. I actually turn off juggler when I'm playing the Raid or a mostly Vex mission or strike.

I just had a thought, maybe you could practice on the overgrown Vex in the Black Garden-- it won't show you what gives precision damage but at least you can see where it's actually landing.
Come to think of it, suggestion for the next patch: add in stats for ability kills like there are for weapon kills.