Criticisms of the Crucible (Destiny)

by Monochron, Wednesday, November 19, 2014, 19:05 (3455 days ago)

In a bad mood after playing Crucible, so I thought I would finally compile the details of what exactly I think are flaws or just things that I hate in PVP in Destiny. I have been playing the Iron Banner recently because I want to buy those Lengendary armor pieces.

  • Blink often fails to work. This also happens with Glide but is less noticable. I have died too many times simply because when I press 'A' the game decides "Nah, I don't feel like doing what you tell me". Is Blink/Glide on some timer that has to recharge? That would be alright if the game attempted to communicate that to us at all. Why is it ambiguous? There is no need to hide this from me so that each jump is a risk
  • Time-to-kill is WAY to low. I'll admit, this might just be my preference because I know a lot of other respected games are similar. But honestly, entering a room and having NO way to turn around and leave before you are killed is ridiculous. Yes, getting the jump on someone should be beneficial, but it can get ridiculous. And especially after spawning, getting spawn killed in under 2 seconds is far worse.
  • That shit bag announcer shouts "FIGHT BACK!" at you if you are losing badly. For instance I just had a game where I spawned three times in a row and was killed within 10 seconds by someone's Super. When the other team is filled with one-hit-kill attacks you can just fuck off buddy, THERE IS NO FIGHTING BACK, you die as soon as they see you.
  • Speaking of the above scenario, if a team has momentum they are rewarded with more one-hit-kill attacks. This serves to dump all over the losing team and actively prevents a come-back. In Halo or other games preventing a comeback what generally reliant on map and weapon control. In Destiny those things help, but then the game hands out overpowered attacks like candy. When I am way up on the winning team it rarely feels satisfying because it becomes simple.
  • Spawn locations are occasionally horrendous. I don't notice this too often but when I do, it is bad. On my death cam I have seen allies spawn feet from enemies or in a room with 2-3 enemies.

Now smaller minutia things that just me crazy.

  • You have to face ammo to open it. I have to turn my back to a room just to get ammo?
  • Hitting X to respawn, and having a delay before you can press it. Not that bad, but it just reiterates the fact that I am now dead and I have to acknowledge my death by pressing a button.
  • The delay when you hit X to respawn. Waiting to respawn is always annoying, but when the games gives you control of when you spawn, but then the counter just freezes and you wait with no user feedback . . . ugh.
  • That stupid animation you do when spawning. MORE waiting after hitting X. And it's a nice show for your opponents giving them an extra second to line up their shots.

It is mostly encounter to encounter things that I don't enjoy here. Playing with or without friends, with or without voice doesn't have any effect on the mechanics above so I don't really notice any difference.

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Shaxx is great and he's disapointed you are garbage at mp

by Spec ops Grunt @, Broklahoma, Wednesday, November 19, 2014, 20:54 (3455 days ago) @ Monochron
edited by Spec ops Grunt, Wednesday, November 19, 2014, 20:59

Just how the cookie crumbles.

Seriously how the hell do people get their feelings hurt by him.


Grow some thicker skin seriously.


You should try playing dota 2 with the Glados announcer.

At least Shaxx is happy when you win

Shaxx is great and he's disapointed you are garbage at mp

by Monochron, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 08:56 (3454 days ago) @ Spec ops Grunt

Just how the cookie crumbles.

Seriously how the hell do people get their feelings hurt by him.


Grow some thicker skin seriously.

I don't know man, it just feels like getting kicked while you are down. If I didn't take issues with all the other things in PvP I certainly wouldn't mind as much. Specifically the time it happened (only heard it once so far), was after spawning and immediately getting killed by a Golden Gun behind me. I accept that those situations are going to happen in a game like this, but it would be nice if Bungie's lines didn't assume.

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Shaxx is great and he's disapointed you are garbage at mp

by Anton P. Nym (aka Steve) ⌂ @, London, Ontario, Canada, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 10:11 (3454 days ago) @ Spec ops Grunt

I don't think he'd bug me as much if I actually enjoyed playing in the Crucible, but since I don't it's adding insult to injury.

-- Steve used to play the occasional game of MP in the Halo series, but he's done with the Crucible. Just not his cup of tea.

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Shaxx is a dick and half the time he says the wrong thing

by iconicbanana, C2-H5-OH + NAD, Portland, OR, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 10:58 (3454 days ago) @ Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)

Don't know how many times he says "this is a massacre" or "looks like you misjudged your enemy" when the difference is razor thin. All he's good for is the heavy ammo notice, which I wish wasn't there (imagine the chaos random heavy ammo would spawn).

I could do without Shaxx and his douche-canoe attitude.

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Shaxx is love

by Spec ops Grunt @, Broklahoma, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 12:14 (3454 days ago) @ iconicbanana

Embrace the tough love

Shaxx is life

by R41, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 13:06 (3454 days ago) @ Spec ops Grunt

- No text -

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Listen to how he says "I will see you around."

by SonofMacPhisto @, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 13:43 (3454 days ago) @ R41

Dat lack of social skills. Clearly, Shaxx wasn't held enough as a child.

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Re: Shaxx's attitude

by Spec ops Grunt @, Broklahoma, Friday, November 21, 2014, 06:58 (3453 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

Maybe he's tired of arms manufacturers trying to bribe him to fix matches

Maybe he doesn't see the crucible as a playground but as a solemn duty.

Maybe he feels personally responsible for each life lost, each guardian felled to the darkness at the battle of Twilight Gap.

Maybe he sees the crucible as training to make sure such a loss never happens again, and its strained his relationship with his one time friend Saladin.

Maybe he wishes to return to the battlefield and sacrifice himself for the light out of a sense of guilt.

Maybe he knows there was nothing he could do to change Twilight Gap and now he sits, overseeing the cruicible with his aging combat frame, a memento of his past life.


I like Shaxx, I think he's a lot more complex than a lot of people take him for.

Twilight Gap spawns

by HavokBlue, California, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 04:09 (3454 days ago) @ Monochron

Some of the Twilight Gap spawns are now truly awful.

I've spawned three times in a row in the line of fire of a sniper camping the bridge to Bravo. The barrier they added to cut down the sniper corridor is still just short enough that someone can aim over it while presenting only their head as a target, and for whatever reason, the fact that they are watching the spawn point doesn't override the spawn.

Twilight Gap spawns

by Monochron, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 08:58 (3454 days ago) @ HavokBlue

Yeah those are rough. Usually I can get to cover quickly on those, but still. Firebase Delphi is where I noticed the worst personally. Watching allies spawn next enemies is just saddening, haha.

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Criticisms of the Crucible

by Morpheus @, High Charity, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 07:00 (3454 days ago) @ Monochron

Yeah, Shaxx is supposed to be "motivational", but all it does is piss me off. And the respawn bullcrap...just last night I was in a Clash match--we were neck and neck, but I had the highest amount of kills, and I was obviously helping out a lot. The other team got to the Lord Shaxx "near-the-end-of-the-game" stupid thing right as we did, and I had died during that message. We were only two kills behind. The little X fills up, and then I am just SPAMMING my X button, trying to get back in and help. NOTHING HAPPENS!!! So while I'm furiously smashing my X button, I can only watch as teammate after teammate after teammate after useless teammate dies, and it takes an additional thirteen seconds to spawn. Yeah, I couldn't even make the Auto-Respawn timer. I barely could materialize before--

"Defeat is not surrender."

Oh, fuck off.

There are options to report cheating players in the menus--how come we can't report Bungie?

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Criticisms of the Crucible

by Spec ops Grunt @, Broklahoma, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 07:08 (3454 days ago) @ Morpheus

I think thats some sort of spawning bug, I've had it happen to me before where I had to wait like 16 seconds.

I wonder if its related to available spawn points being occupied? Like the spawning for invasion in reach.

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I think it's a spawn-camping countermeasure.

by iconicbanana, C2-H5-OH + NAD, Portland, OR, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 07:37 (3454 days ago) @ Spec ops Grunt

I think thats some sort of spawning bug, I've had it happen to me before where I had to wait like 16 seconds.

I wonder if its related to available spawn points being occupied? Like the spawning for invasion in reach.

This was my initial thought. For all the issues I've had with that damn spawn button, I rarely find myself getting spawn camped. Maybe the spawn mechanic is driven by proximity to enemy players, and if there isn't a spawn far enough away from all enemies, you won't spawn?

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I think it's a spawn-camping countermeasure.

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 08:06 (3454 days ago) @ iconicbanana

Nah. It's probably just good old lag. Same as when you couldn't respawn in Halo. Now you have a button you can mash to further your anger when things aren't working.

I think it's a spawn-camping countermeasure.

by Monochron, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 09:03 (3454 days ago) @ Ragashingo

Now you have a button you can mash to further your anger when things aren't working.

This is a good observation. Honestly I probably wouldn't get annoyed if I had to wait entirely on the game to respawn me. But giving me control and then having that control not work is kind of crappy.

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Genuine question about spawn-camping

by iconicbanana, C2-H5-OH + NAD, Portland, OR, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 09:08 (3454 days ago) @ Monochron

Does anyone suffer from more than the occasional sniper spawn-camp? I have noticed it on blind watch more now that it's changed, but I'm curious if anyone is seeing/suffering from more systematic spawn-camping.

Not "spawn camping" exactly...

by Monochron, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 09:10 (3454 days ago) @ iconicbanana

Personally, I don't think I suffer from "spawn camping" per se, I suffer from spawning right next to, or in the line of sight of, enemies. Don't take my word for it though, I haven't been tracking it or anything, this is just a feeling that it happens way more often than it should.

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Not "spawn camping" exactly...

by iconicbanana, C2-H5-OH + NAD, Portland, OR, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 09:14 (3454 days ago) @ Monochron

Personally, I don't think I suffer from "spawn camping" per se, I suffer from spawning right next to, or in the line of sight of, enemies. Don't take my word for it though, I haven't been tracking it or anything, this is just a feeling that it happens way more often than it should.

Yeah, that's just the nature of the game. I'm talking about someone who figures out a spot to sit specifically to pick off newly spawning players. I brought it up because I think there is a spot on A that a guy was hiding back at while his team controlled C, and potting players as they ran from A to the door between A and B. In the past, I seemed to spawn randomly when a player was in proximity to A, even if my team controlled A.

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Genuine question about spawn-camping

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 09:13 (3454 days ago) @ iconicbanana

I don't think so. There's the occasional frustrating spawn but I rarely if ever get spawned and have someone waiting on me.

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Genuine question about spawn-camping

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 11:31 (3454 days ago) @ iconicbanana

Does anyone suffer from more than the occasional sniper spawn-camp? I have noticed it on blind watch more now that it's changed, but I'm curious if anyone is seeing/suffering from more systematic spawn-camping.

It's happened to me a handful of times, but usually after 2 or 3 people die in the same spawn I notice the game won't spawn someone there for a little while.

Criticisms of the Crucible

by Monochron, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 09:00 (3454 days ago) @ Morpheus

Have you had your respawn timer freeze after pressing X and then you have to wait upwards of 20 seconds to spawn? I reported that bug but it happens infrequently enough that I usually just laugh at it. Damn frustrating though.

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Criticisms of the Crucible

by JDQuackers ⌂ @, McMurray, PA, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 09:16 (3454 days ago) @ Monochron

Have you had your respawn timer freeze after pressing X and then you have to wait upwards of 20 seconds to spawn? I reported that bug but it happens infrequently enough that I usually just laugh at it. Damn frustrating though.

That just happened to me for the first time last night playing Iron Banner... I don't play Crucible very often so don't know if that's new with the latest patch or exclusive to IB or what. It was kind of frustrating though.

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Criticisms of the Crucible

by Morpheus @, High Charity, Friday, November 21, 2014, 15:58 (3453 days ago) @ Monochron

Happened again yesterday.

Died. 5 second wait.

X.

X,X,X,X,X,X...

Heavy Ammo on the way.


X,X,X,X,X,X,X,X,X,X,X,X,X,X,X,X,X,X,X,X,X...

Heavy Ammo Available.

X,X,X,X,X,X,X,X,X,X,X,X,X,X,X,XX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Swear to god, they made sure not to spawn me until the second both boxes have been picked up...by the other team, of course.

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Criticisms of the Crucible

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 07:15 (3454 days ago) @ Monochron

[*] Hitting X to respawn, and having a delay before you can press it. Not that bad, but it just reiterates the fact that I am now dead and I have to acknowledge my death by pressing a button.

I've always seen this as a good feature. There is an autospawn if you don't push the button, and the delay gives you a moment to adjust your equipment, if you need to.

Criticisms of the Crucible

by Monochron, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 09:07 (3454 days ago) @ Kermit

I've always seen this as a good feature. There is an autospawn if you don't push the button, and the delay gives you a moment to adjust your equipment, if you need to.

It's useful for changing your equipment, though I have found that I can almost always find a safe place to change in-game.

What makes it worse though is that the menu itself can take up to 10 seconds to load. Why in the world does it need to sync with the server before displaying what is already in my inventory? In hectic moments between spawns it certianly would be nice to swap things out, but I can never trust that as the auto-respawn will dump me out in the open if the menu takes too long.

Again, I would much rather be fully in control and hide somewhere to wait for the network, rather than let the auto-respawn put me somewhere compromising (as it often does).

If the menu and respawns worked properly, I would agree with you 100%.

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Criticisms of the Crucible

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 11:29 (3454 days ago) @ Monochron

What makes it worse though is that the menu itself can take up to 10 seconds to load. Why in the world does it need to sync with the server before displaying what is already in my inventory? In hectic moments between spawns it certianly would be nice to swap things out, but I can never trust that as the auto-respawn will dump me out in the open if the menu takes too long.

Is this on 360? It's almost instantaneous (most of the time) on XB1.

Yeah, 360 . . . it's crippling

by Monochron, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 12:21 (3454 days ago) @ Xenos

Wow, I never would have guessed that. The most I have ever waited has been 30 seconds, which is eye bleedingly crazy. Normal is around 4 - 5 seconds. When I am in the heat of battle it usually averages 5 - 6 seconds.

I will realize I need to switch to carrying my shotgun on a close quarters map, hit pause, and then stare at my Guardian looking blandly back surrounded by empty boxes. Often I just give up or start getting shot and try to change weapons again later . . .

I know I have heard other people complaining about this, but I have no idea how common it actually is.

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+1

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Thursday, November 20, 2014, 14:25 (3454 days ago) @ Monochron

I'm on 360 and, while it usually takes close to a full second (usually less), sometimes it does take over 10, which just plain sucks.

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+1

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, November 21, 2014, 17:53 (3453 days ago) @ ZackDark

I'm on 360 and, while it usually takes close to a full second (usually less), sometimes it does take over 10, which just plain sucks.

That's borderline unplayable.

+1

by Monochron, Friday, November 21, 2014, 20:43 (3453 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I'm on 360 and, while it usually takes close to a full second (usually less), sometimes it does take over 10, which just plain sucks.


That's borderline unplayable.

I often just quite whatever task I am doing to avoid getting too pissed off. But yeah, it's awful.

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Criticisms of the Crucible

by dogcow @, Hiding from Bob, in the vent core., Thursday, November 20, 2014, 10:36 (3454 days ago) @ Monochron

  • Time-to-kill is WAY to low. I'll admit, this might just be my preference because I know a lot of other respected games are similar. But honestly, entering a room and having NO way to turn around and leave before you are killed is ridiculous. Yes, getting the jump on someone should be beneficial, but it can get ridiculous. And especially after spawning, getting spawn killed in under 2 seconds is far worse.
  • Spawn locations are occasionally horrendous. I don't notice this too often but when I do, it is bad. On my death cam I have seen allies spawn feet from enemies or in a room with 2-3 enemies.

Last night I felt as if I were playing Halo 2 multiplayer at a time when I was ranked higher than I should have been. Losing 4 & 5 games in a row many times. Spawn, die, spawn, die, spawn, die. Apparently I am not very good at destiny pvp.

Criticisms of the Crucible

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Friday, November 21, 2014, 19:46 (3453 days ago) @ dogcow

I've had a lot of this tonight.

Was sat in Blind Watch and was lucky enough to have The Winning Spawn. Held it for most of the game, but we just couldnt kill anyone. We kept the game tied just barely, despite having two zones. Then they finally kicked us out and steamrolled us.

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Criticisms of the Crucible

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, November 21, 2014, 17:52 (3453 days ago) @ Monochron

[*]Time-to-kill is WAY to low. I'll admit, this might just be my preference because I know a lot of other respected games are similar. But honestly, entering a room and having NO way to turn around and leave before you are killed is ridiculous. Yes, getting the jump on someone should be beneficial, but it can get ridiculous. And especially after spawning, getting spawn killed in under 2 seconds is far worse.

You need to lean heavily on your radar to avoid such situations. You need to know where the enemy is, and delay engagement until you are on equal footing or you have the advantage. See tons of enemies on your radar in said room? Don't enter with out preparing!

[*]Speaking of the above scenario, if a team has momentum they are rewarded with more one-hit-kill attacks. This serves to dump all over the losing team and actively prevents a come-back. In Halo or other games preventing a comeback what generally reliant on map and weapon control. In Destiny those things help, but then the game hands out overpowered attacks like candy. When I am way up on the winning team it rarely feels satisfying because it becomes simple.

I find controlling the heavy ammo has a larger effect on the game than does super management. Good times to use your super are when enemies have heavy ammo. Yes, by doing well you get your super more often, but I feel that doesn't have as much of an effect on the game as you seem to. It's a small advantage, but if you can get it, you deserve to have it.

[*] You have to face ammo to open it. I have to turn my back to a room just to get ammo?

That is the idea. Grabbing heavy ammo should make you vulnerable.

I think Destiny is a superior multiplayer experience to Halo in just about every way. Except of course NO OBJECTIVE GAMETYPES like CTF, Team Oddball, and Team KoTH.

Criticisms of the Crucible

by Monochron, Friday, November 21, 2014, 20:52 (3453 days ago) @ Cody Miller

[*]Time-to-kill is WAY to low... And especially after spawning, getting spawn killed in under 2 seconds is far worse.


You need to lean heavily on your radar to avoid such situations. You need to know where the enemy is, and delay engagement until you are on equal footing or you have the advantage. See tons of enemies on your radar in said room? Don't enter with out preparing!

This brings up another issue I forgot to put in the post:
The radar's lack of precision makes it odd and easily misread. If I approach a room with one Guardian in it, the radar shows me a red slice ahead of me. If I approach a room with an entire team of Guardians in it, the radar shows me a red slice ahead of me. In part because the range for the semicircle of red is huge while the range for the slice of red is short.
Many times I have relied on the radar and assumed that I could take what was around the corner, only to stumble into 3 Guardians and possibly a super. Then, because of the fast time-to-kill, I am very quickly gone.

Still, what you say is good advice. Playing a bit more timid than I normal would and using the radar for the info it does give is a good strategy.

I find controlling the heavy ammo has a larger effect on the game than does super management. Good times to use your super are when enemies have heavy ammo. Yes, by doing well you get your super more often, but I feel that doesn't have as much of an effect on the game as you seem to. It's a small advantage, but if you can get it, you deserve to have it.

I'm not sure of the exact numbers here, but I get the impression that if the opposing team does well enough, they can have three supers per match. That is 9 kills for Golden Guns, etc. That feels really unbalanced to me. You are right that Heavy Ammo plays a huge role, but a whole team isn't going to get the heavy ammo, only a select few. They will get "guaranteed kills" from Heavy, assuming other BS doesn't stop them, but this doesn't compare to the kills from well executed supers.

That is the idea. Grabbing heavy ammo should make you vulnerable.

Fair enough. Other games seem to get by just fine without this, and I prefer them.
I'm not sure if Special ammo should make you face it though. It's just annoying to be a couple degrees the wrong direction.

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Criticisms of the Crucible

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Friday, November 21, 2014, 21:24 (3453 days ago) @ Monochron

Many times I have relied on the radar and assumed that I could take what was around the corner, only to stumble into 3 Guardians and possibly a super. Then, because of the fast time-to-kill, I am very quickly gone.

No. You are very quickly gone because you blundered into a room with three enemies. Assigning the blame to the time-to-kill is silly when you admit what you were doing wrong...

Criticisms of the Crucible

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Saturday, November 22, 2014, 07:53 (3452 days ago) @ Ragashingo

Blundered

Hardly blundered. The post specifically said it can be impossible to tell what's round a corner based on the radar. If you're in a Chat, you can call that kind of thing out, but if you're playing solo good luck finding people to talk to, even with the update. Which means the only way to find out is to see for yourself, and eat Suros for your troubles.

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Criticisms of the Crucible

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, November 22, 2014, 09:15 (3452 days ago) @ someotherguy

Blundered


Hardly blundered. The post specifically said it can be impossible to tell what's round a corner based on the radar. If you're in a Chat, you can call that kind of thing out, but if you're playing solo good luck finding people to talk to, even with the update. Which means the only way to find out is to see for yourself, and eat Suros for your troubles.

Come on.

If you had perfect information about enemy position and movements, the game would be much less fun. Imagine playing an RTS with no fog of war seeing what your enemy is doing at all times. Part of the fun and challenge is that you don't have this info, so you must find a way to gather it, or take a risk. You can use teamwork, sneaky tactics or whatever else you can exploit.

Likewise, you can get a leg up by hiding your positions from the enemy.

The radar SHOULD be just a ballpark, not an exact locator. You are right in that having a fireteam is really helpful. When I play with the DBO crew, we always call out who has heavy ammo, where the snipers are, who's a bladedancer and golden gun, etc. They've saved my ass many times.

Criticisms of the Crucible

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Saturday, November 22, 2014, 12:55 (3452 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I don't actually disagree, I just thought the phrase 'blundering' was a bit harsh. I quite like the radar tbh.

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Criticisms of the Crucible

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Saturday, November 22, 2014, 11:09 (3452 days ago) @ someotherguy

Blundered


Hardly blundered. The post specifically said it can be impossible to tell what's round a corner based on the radar. If you're in a Chat, you can call that kind of thing out, but if you're playing solo good luck finding people to talk to, even with the update. Which means the only way to find out is to see for yourself, and eat Suros for your troubles.

Or you can play it safe and wait for backup. I routinely hang back and wait for the enemy to make a move or wait for team members to arrive. Really we're just discussing basic FPS tactics here. Yeah, I had to adjust to Destiny's less specific radar but not blundering into a room when you don't know what's in there isn't rocket surgery...

Criticisms of the Crucible

by Monochron, Saturday, November 22, 2014, 10:09 (3452 days ago) @ Ragashingo

Many times I have relied on the radar and assumed that I could take what was around the corner, only to stumble into 3 Guardians and possibly a super. Then, because of the fast time-to-kill, I am very quickly gone.


No. You are very quickly gone because you blundered into a room with three enemies. Assigning the blame to the time-to-kill is silly when you admit what you were doing wrong...

Did you read my post? Who are you to say that walking into a room with some sort of enemy must be a "blunder"? You would never enter an area that has an enemy in it? Come on man.
The point of my post was the radar, not the time-to-kill, clearly.

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Criticisms of the Crucible

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Saturday, November 22, 2014, 11:03 (3452 days ago) @ Monochron

Many times I have relied on the radar and assumed that I could take what was around the corner, only to stumble into 3 Guardians and possibly a super. Then, because of the fast time-to-kill, I am very quickly gone.


No. You are very quickly gone because you blundered into a room with three enemies. Assigning the blame to the time-to-kill is silly when you admit what you were doing wrong...


Did you read my post?

No. I just correctly quoted a section then replied to it with my eyes closed... I'm that good.

Who are you to say that walking into a room with some sort of enemy must be a "blunder"? You would never enter an area that has an enemy in it? Come on man.

Did you read your post? You didn't just walk into a room. Many times you made a bad assumption and correctly got beat down for it. If you are constantly walking into room alone and trying to face down three enemies then yes, you are blundering. Skirt the room and watch your radar. Unless the enemies are standing on top of each other it will tell you there's more than one person there by briefly lighting up two segments. If you think there's an enemy in a corner or multiple enemies in a small space toss in a grenade and watch for multiple damage numbers. You may not be in a position to follow up but at least you'll know not to go in.

The point of my post was the radar, not the time-to-kill, clearly.

Ok then. Back when Sargent Avery Johnson joined the corps he didn't have any fancy smanchy radar. He had a motion tracker. One motion tracker and a Warthog for the whole team... and they had to share the Warthog!

You are complaining about blundering into a room because you made a bad assumption based on your radar. At least it always tells you that there's enemies nearby. In Halo an entire team could get taken out by one shotgun guy because he'd be crouched into a corner and invisible on the motion tracker. An entire enemy team could be waiting on you in the next room crouched but you'd never know based on your motion tracker. Having a radar system that always pings enemies is a luxury.

So buck up boy, you're one very lucky Guardian! :)

Criticisms of the Crucible

by Monochron, Saturday, November 22, 2014, 11:52 (3452 days ago) @ Ragashingo
edited by Monochron, Saturday, November 22, 2014, 11:57

Many times you made a bad assumption and correctly got beat down for it. If you are constantly walking into room alone and trying to face down three enemies then yes, you are blundering.

Stop making shit up.
My "bad assumption" was nothing more than "there is enemy(s) there". You are also assuming that I am "trying to face down three enemies". Nope. Sorry. Couldn't be more wrong. This goes back to how you misinterpreted my low time-to-kill comment. You die in less than a second if 3 people focus fire on you. You can't worm out of that one. Once they open fire, there is no escape because you will be dead in under a second.

Unless the enemies are standing on top of each other it will tell you there's more than one person there by briefly lighting up two segments.

Which it also does for 1 enemy. If you are trusting that then you are the one blundering around because that is a simple game play mechanic that you have had months to figure out by now.

You are complaining about blundering into a room because you made a bad assumption based on your radar.

You are really harping on this "blundering into a room" like you think I wander into the middle of room. Surely you have played Crucible and know that walking by a room with 3 enemies in it will get you killed right? Do you honestly play the game by just avoiding any red you see on the radar? I really don't believe that. I imagine you occasionally try to kill an enemy if you see them on your radar. If they there are more than one and they aren't terrible, you probably won't live.

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I don't get it, then

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Saturday, November 22, 2014, 11:58 (3452 days ago) @ Monochron

If you know getting jumped on by 3 enemies is sure death, I don't get what the complaint is. Surely you understand it happens sometimes, right? Unless you constantly coordinate with a team, there will always be occasions where the other team coordinates on you in overkill situations.

I don't get it, then

by Monochron, Saturday, November 22, 2014, 12:19 (3452 days ago) @ ZackDark

If you know getting jumped on by 3 enemies is sure death, I don't get what the complaint is. Surely you understand it happens sometimes, right? Unless you constantly coordinate with a team, there will always be occasions where the other team coordinates on you in overkill situations.

I guess first, in a skill based game when there are things that cause sure death, it is best if the circumstances are clear. If you don't have the skill to avoid these situations, then yeah you are going to die. But when the situation is murky, you are basically playing a small game of chance instead of a small game of skill. Randomness in competitive multiplayer sours the experience.

Let me put it this way: because there is no clear way for me to know what I am about to face AND because if it is > 3 enemies death the time-to-kill will be so unbelievable short, I cannot use my skill to win the encounter. It is the intersection of these two design decisions (which can work fine on their own) that create the bad experience.
Now sure, there can be situations where you luck out and not everyone in the are sees you (or don't look at their radar), or they suck butt and can't hit you. But in a given well matched game, that doesn't generally happen. Usually, there is no way to run before you die.


Second, this isn't a matter of coordination, it is a matter of happenstance. If there is a case where the other team has clearly outfoxed little old me, like flanking me, or holding control of an area, then it sucks but it isn't going to bother me and it isn't a problem with the game. This however isn't an instance of the other team having superior strategy, just decent aim and the ability to watch their own radar.

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Criticisms of the Crucible

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Saturday, November 22, 2014, 12:36 (3452 days ago) @ Monochron

Many times you made a bad assumption and correctly got beat down for it. If you are constantly walking into room alone and trying to face down three enemies then yes, you are blundering.

Stop making shit up.
My "bad assumption" was nothing more than "there is enemy(s) there". You are also assuming that I am "trying to face down three enemies". Nope. Sorry. Couldn't be more wrong. This goes back to how you misinterpreted my low time-to-kill comment. You die in less than a second if 3 people focus fire on you. You can't worm out of that one. Once they open fire, there is no escape because you will be dead in under a second.

Trying to control lines of sight is part of the game. Part of any FPS. I don't see the problem here. Perhaps you should play a bit more timid than you normal would and use the radar for the info it does give?

Unless the enemies are standing on top of each other it will tell you there's more than one person there by briefly lighting up two segments.

Which it also does for 1 enemy. If you are trusting that then you are the one blundering around because that is a simple game play mechanic that you have had months to figure out by now.

Not true. I just tested this in single and multiplayer on the chance I was misremembering. I wasn't. With one enemy you can only light up a single segment at a time. The inner ring does has a brief fade effect, but I can't find a way to keep two segments (inner or outer) lit no matter where I move or which way I face. Counting enemies via radar doesn't really work past two, but it can definitely tell you the difference between one enemy and more than one enemy.

You are complaining about blundering into a room because you made a bad assumption based on your radar.

You are really harping on this "blundering into a room" like you think I wander into the middle of room. Surely you have played Crucible and know that walking by a room with 3 enemies in it will get you killed right? Do you honestly play the game by just avoiding any red you see on the radar? I really don't believe that. I imagine you occasionally try to kill an enemy if you see them on your radar. If they there are more than one and they aren't terrible, you probably won't live.

I don't give a room full of enemies a line of sight on me if I can help it. I move cautiously and attack cautiously and immediately evade if there are too many enemies. Despite your protests, evading, withdrawing, and counter attacking are all very viable parts of Destiny. Really, the time to kill isn't much worse than Halo, and you have more, not less, options to fight back or evade.

Criticisms of the Crucible

by Monochron, Saturday, November 22, 2014, 12:49 (3452 days ago) @ Ragashingo

Trying to control lines of sight is part of the game. Part of any FPS. I don't see the problem here. Perhaps you should play a bit more timid than you normal would and use the radar for the info it does give?

Yeah that's what Cody suggested. It isn't very fun to avoid enemies and/or doorways, but it could certainly mitigate the effect.

Which it also does for 1 enemy.

Not true. I just tested this in single and multiplayer on the chance I was misremembering. I wasn't. With one enemy you can only light up a single segment at a time. The inner ring does has a brief fade effect, but I can't find a way to keep two segments (inner or outer) lit no matter where I move or which way I face. Counting enemies via radar doesn't really work past two, but it can definitely tell you the difference between one enemy and more than one enemy.

I agree with what you are saying. Unfortunately it only works when enemies are spaced out. In my initial post I only referred to the "1 slice" because that is the situation that causes issues. I agree that multiple slices lit at once is much more useful.

I don't give a room full of enemies a line of sight on me if I can help it.

If you already know it is a room full of enemies, then sure.

Really, the time to kill isn't much worse than Halo, and you have more, not less, options to fight back or evade.

I'm interested to find the numbers (though I imagine they would be more difficult to obtain because of Destiny's weapon variety), but I thing there is a significant enough difference. We can't really settle this without hard numbers though :/

I'm sure there used to be more than 4 maps?

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Friday, November 21, 2014, 19:55 (3453 days ago) @ Monochron

I counted tonights session. 6 Rusted Lands, 7 Firebase Delphi, 6 Twilight Gaps 3 Blind Watch and 1 Shores of Time.

And of those 4, the latter two are horribly designed maps - whoever grabs C&B first can easily stand well back and kill everything that crosses their path. I thought control was supposed to minImise camping, but Blind Watch and Shores of Time actually make it even more efficient.

Where are the rest? Where are my large maps? Hell, where Is Exodus Blue even?

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I'm sure there used to be more than 4 maps?

by bluerunner @, Music City, Saturday, November 22, 2014, 06:39 (3452 days ago) @ someotherguy

I counted tonights session. 6 Rusted Lands, 7 Firebase Delphi, 6 Twilight Gaps 3 Blind Watch and 1 Shores of Time.

And of those 4,

1. Rusted Lands
2. Firebase Delphi
3. Twilight Gap
4. Blind Watch
5. Shores of Time

Were you playing Iron Banner or regular control?

I'm sure there used to be more than 4 maps?

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Saturday, November 22, 2014, 07:08 (3452 days ago) @ bluerunner

Ha, Thats what I get for mid-post editing.

Iron Banner. Im assuming theres a smaller map pool, but my real issue is that I was playing one map 5+ times in a row, then another 5 times in a row. Thats an hour on one map before moving to the next.

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I'm sure there used to be more than 4 maps?

by bluerunner @, Music City, Saturday, November 22, 2014, 07:24 (3452 days ago) @ someotherguy

I've noticed the same problem with Iron Banner. I don't know why they don't have the other maps in there. I've gotten Twilight Gap 4 times in a row.

I'm sure there used to be more than 4 maps?

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Saturday, November 22, 2014, 07:47 (3452 days ago) @ bluerunner

I understand wanting to avoid vehicle-heavy maps, but could they not just remove vehicles from them? I dont know how hard that would be, Im no programmer, but it would sure be appreciated.

And I have no idea why Exodus Blue isn't included in there. Or maybe it is but I haven't seen it in 4 days.

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I'm sure there used to be more than 4 maps?

by iconicbanana, C2-H5-OH + NAD, Portland, OR, Saturday, November 22, 2014, 08:52 (3452 days ago) @ someotherguy

And of those 4, the latter two are horribly designed maps - whoever grabs C&B first can easily stand well back and kill everything that crosses their path. I thought control was supposed to minImise camping, but Blind Watch and Shores of Time actually make it even more efficient.

I'll agree with you on blind watch, which we've discussed ad nauseum on this and other threads. But Shores of time is, in my opinion, the best crucible map in this game. It requires enormous amounts of strategy, especially in how you approach b, but I've won on it many times when my team started at a. The problem is that most teams don't coordinate; when we've played organized teams, it's almost always extremely close.

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Shores of Time is my favorite smaller map

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Saturday, November 22, 2014, 09:15 (3452 days ago) @ iconicbanana

- No text -

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I'm sure there used to be more than 4 maps?

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Saturday, November 22, 2014, 11:16 (3452 days ago) @ iconicbanana

Agreed. Superficially, Shores of Time seems like it should be another Blind Watch. But I think it's smaller size, no choke points with doors that auto alert defenders, more even starting spawns, and fewer enclosed spaces help make it play great instead of crappy. Also, in SoT the point layout is basically a set of straight lines from A to B to C and they're all about an equal distance apart. On Blind Watch B and C are much closer to each other than they are to A.

I'm sure there used to be more than 4 maps?

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Sunday, November 23, 2014, 06:19 (3451 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I agree that it takes some strategy to capture B from whoever holds it, but the problem is that it's much easier to take and hold from the back BC corner than it is from the AB part of the map, because the lines of sight are much clearer from there than from any other part of the map.

Which means the team spawning there has an immediate advantage, as all they need to do is set up a couple of guys in that corner and they can hold those zones from the offset.

It's not as bad as Blind Watch because there's less cover back there, so a co-ordinated team can still take them out, but with a group of randoms it's far less do-able.

Criticisms of the Crucible

by Monochron, Saturday, November 22, 2014, 21:49 (3452 days ago) @ Monochron

What I have really noticed today is some sort of lag(?) related to melee animations. I was trying to go for that bounty to get 10 melee kills and I would constantly watch my Warlock finish his punching animation and then drop dead to what looked like a shotgun or that Titan shoulder thing. Being up close and personal isn't worth the network(?) issues.

I have to say, going for bounties in the Iron Banner can be a miserable experience. Just playing the games to win can occasionally be enjoyable, but hitting on one aspect over and over tends to draw out the weaknesses.

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Couple thoughts on Control

by SonofMacPhisto @, Sunday, November 23, 2014, 07:03 (3451 days ago) @ Monochron

Having read most of this thread, a couple apropos of sorta something thoughts:

Like our friend Half-Jaw once said, just because you're dead doesn't mean your threat has ended.

[image]

Thankfully, with respawning, you can use the tactic more than once. ;) Control is a points game, and if you've got two control points, you can trade kills for deaths 1-1 and win the game. Alternatively, if you've got one point, a well timed suicide attack can push the other team back just enough to let your buddies in. Jump in shotguns blazing, toss that grenade, and hope for the best. If you can trade your death for two kills or even one kill a critical time (say knocking out a guy who just got heavy ammo or popped his golden gun), do it. Got that Titan to waste his Fist of Havoc on killing you? That's a win, because he didn't use to wipe half your team from a control point.

Sometimes, it's better to be lucky than good, especially since fortune favors the bold.

Second, Supers are all about WHEN you use them. As a Defender Titan, I see this most clearly as one tactical Dawn deployment can change the flow of an entire match. Take yesterday - Lawnmower and I were on Shores of Time, near the "T" hallway in front of B. You know the one, everyone likes to camp there. Lawmower tossed up a Ward in the middle of it, and he and I proceeded to wreck face. Before long, our close match became a runaway.

So, I mean ultimately, step back and put on your critical thinking cap. Think of the whole match, start to finish, not the moment by moment battles.

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Couple thoughts on Control

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Sunday, November 23, 2014, 07:22 (3451 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

That's pretty much how I play, every time. Not only does it usually work with a coordinated team, it's a lot more fun than taking it slow.

In fact, the only match I remember taking it slow was that one you mentioned on Shores of Time. Since we were obviously going to win, I brought out my sniper and practiced a bit on C. :p

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Couple thoughts on Control

by SonofMacPhisto @, Sunday, November 23, 2014, 07:26 (3451 days ago) @ ZackDark

That's pretty much how I play, every time. Not only does it usually work with a coordinated team, it's a lot more fun than taking it slow.

In fact, the only match I remember taking it slow was that one you mentioned on Shores of Time. Since we were obviously going to win, I brought out my sniper and practiced a bit on C. :p

Yeah, coordination and call-outs make a huge difference. Also, it was good to play with you this week! The Murder-Fu is strong with you.

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Couple thoughts on Control

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Sunday, November 23, 2014, 07:48 (3451 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

Yeah, coordination and call-outs make a huge difference. Also, it was good to play with you this week! The Murder-Fu is strong with you.

Heh, thanks, right back at ya. Those Wards of Dawn felt insanely OP with you guys. :D

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Couple thoughts on Control

by SonofMacPhisto @, Sunday, November 23, 2014, 08:08 (3451 days ago) @ ZackDark

Yeah, coordination and call-outs make a huge difference. Also, it was good to play with you this week! The Murder-Fu is strong with you.


Heh, thanks, right back at ya. Those Wards of Dawn felt insanely OP with you guys. :D

Ward of Dawn + Invective. I CAN DO THIS ALL DAY SUCKERS.

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Couple thoughts on Control

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Sunday, November 23, 2014, 08:21 (3451 days ago) @ ZackDark

Yeah, coordination and call-outs make a huge difference. Also, it was good to play with you this week! The Murder-Fu is strong with you.


Heh, thanks, right back at ya. Those Wards of Dawn felt insanely OP with you guys. :D

This doesn't appear to be common knowledge, but the golden gun can destroy a ward of dawn. It's very satisfying when someone drops it over a control point at a critical time, only to blast it down and deny them.

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Couple thoughts on Control

by SonofMacPhisto @, Sunday, November 23, 2014, 08:57 (3451 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Yeah, coordination and call-outs make a huge difference. Also, it was good to play with you this week! The Murder-Fu is strong with you.


Heh, thanks, right back at ya. Those Wards of Dawn felt insanely OP with you guys. :D


This doesn't appear to be common knowledge, but the golden gun can destroy a ward of dawn. It's very satisfying when someone drops it over a control point at a critical time, only to blast it down and deny them.

Shhhhhhhhhhhh!!

Couple thoughts on Control

by Monochron, Sunday, November 23, 2014, 09:23 (3451 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

So, I mean ultimately, step back and put on your critical thinking cap. Think of the whole match, start to finish, not the moment by moment battles.

I do think there is a lot of good strategy to be played out in Destiny, the biggest one that comes to mind is Ward of Dawn shutting down areas or re-routing opponents. An occasional resurrection timed perfectly can go a long way as well.
I think the overall match, flow, and locations (mostly), are fine. I just think the moment by moment aspect needs a bit of work.

Couple thoughts on Control

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Monday, November 24, 2014, 03:55 (3450 days ago) @ Monochron

I played against a pair if Defenders taking it in turns to Bubble and feed each other kills to get super energy back. There was not, for the entire 12 minute game, a single moment where there wasn't a Ward of Dawn on that control point.

Wouldn't have been so bad if it wasn't zone B on Firebase Delphi. All my idiot teammates just kept charging in, charging in, charging in.

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Couple thoughts on Control

by SonofMacPhisto @, Monday, November 24, 2014, 06:04 (3450 days ago) @ someotherguy

charging in, charging in, charging in

I know that feel, but as a Defender, I hope that's a behavior that never changes. :P

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You needed an Arc Titan to ruin their day...

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Monday, November 24, 2014, 11:42 (3450 days ago) @ someotherguy

... or, you know, a Bladedancer :p

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