Resolving the Solo vs. Co-op difficulty disparity (Destiny)
by RC 
, UK, Thursday, November 27, 2014, 14:56 (3447 days ago)
edited by RC, Thursday, November 27, 2014, 15:04
Bungie changed the damage scaling in Strikes to make it so having more people is always a help rather than a hindrance. Fair enough.
But more than having multiple times the firepower, co-op is always orders of magnitude easier because the revive and respawn mechanics mean you can die many times in the same encounter, come back, and keep your progress. A very similar thing applies to Halo, BTW.
This disparity is perhaps most evident at the Nightfall Weekly Strikes. Where solo runs are super-hardcore no-death affairs, whereas co-op can be kinda leisurely. Plenty of mistakes can happen, but as long as one person is cautious and can camo/bubble-revive, self-revive or slowly work through enemies it'll always get done.
So to fix this:
Standard Strikes
- Lift all Darkness Zones (effectively)
- Respawn in 10 seconds (even for solo players)
Nightfall Strikes
- Have checkpoints
- No revives in Darkness Zones
- No respawns in Darkness Zones
- Dead players auto-revive at checkpoints/exit from Darkness Zones (like Hard Mode Raid)
- Join-in-Progress players are dead until next checkpoint
- *Introduce additional reward for zero team deaths / generalised performance bonus mechanic
The advantages are that co-op and solo difficulty are brought much closer together, Solo Players feel less screwed and it maintains the idea that extra people are always a help.
Some disadvantages are that it'd be necessary to totally redefine the Nightfall Skull, the revive feature is not used as much and co-op nightfall might be harder than it is now.
Co-opers would get checkpoints in exchange though, and maybe they could reduce the damage a little so it's easier. Solo Players would especially appreciate that as there have been quite a few complaints over the last couple of weeks.
Personally, I can't conceive of a way to really keep the revive feature as-is that doesn't unduly screw over people who don't have a teammate or two. If it was like the above, extra people would pretty much always be a help except if you were going for a no-deaths reward. Then you'd want to pick your teammates carefully. That would probably be OK because that's how it works with the Flawless Raider achievement already.
Changing the revive mechanic so solo-ers can have some use out of it goes down a whole new rabbit hole that I haven't put enough thought into exploring yet. Maybe some other time.
More Challenge?
With checkpoints re-introduced to Nightfall, and revives eliminated, it'd be conceptually simple to increase the challenge again (if desirable) by reducing the frequency of checkpoints. At the extreme end, you could eliminate checkpoints entirely again. But this time, if a co-op teammate died, they'd stay dead for the rest of the strike. You'd have to think carefully whether to continue with fewer players or start over.
A good way to have this ability might be to split nightfall into a few skulls (like the Heroic/Epic duality). How about so:
- Nightfall: No revives or respawns in Darkness Zones. Auto-revives at checkpoints.
- Endure: Checkpoints occur 1/3 as often.
- Survive: No Checkpoints. Good luck.
Thus, Destiny is made a better game.
That's my armchair game design done for the day. ;)
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It seems like a good way to do it. Enemies are easier solo, darkness zone deaths send you to orbit. Don't die. Your way just makes it a weekly strike. The Nightfall is supposed to be hard. With people it should be easier. That's the point.
Critical communication failure...
by RC , UK, Friday, November 28, 2014, 08:42 (3446 days ago) @ Funkmon
edited by RC, Friday, November 28, 2014, 08:54
Everything you just said is off. I can't be communicating very well at all.
It seems like a good way to do it. Enemies are easier solo, darkness zone deaths send you to orbit. Don't die.
From the Weekly update I linked in the first sentence:
Emphasis mine. Unless I've got the meaning of that passage wrong, that means the enemies are now the same with any number of players.
In the very next paragraph James Tsai say's that the degree of difficulty for solo players now is a recognised problem. Moreover, one that they intend to try and fix.
Therefore, it seems to me less a question of 'should it change?' but rather 'how will it change?'
Additionally, Darkness Zone deaths send solo players back to Orbit. Only wipes (i.e. everyone has to be dead at once) send co-op players back to Orbit. Believe me, I've exploited the heck out of this with many poorly judged manoeuvres. Without a teammate revive mechanic in co-op, not dying would arguably be more important than it is now.
For a Solo Player, checkpoints mean that a single, minor, slip-up resulting in a death wouldn't be as total and complete a failure as it now.
Your way just makes it a weekly strike.
Far from it. I considered that in the initial posting:
- Weekly Heroic strikes would be easier with my suggestion to alter their mechanics as well. Widening the gap between Heroic and Nightfall.
- Weekly Heroic Strikes would still not contain as many skull modifiers as the Nightfall Version. The Epic skull in particular.
- Co-op Nightfall would be noticeably different with the lack of revives. Not dying would be important as you might not be able to come back for a long time.
- I additionally suggest reducing the checkpoints to up the difficult again.
Heck, why not throw in Matchmaking for Heroic Weekly Strikes since it'd be easier? That'd make it more different still.
The Nightfall is supposed to be hard. With people it should be easier. That's the point.
I don't see how, with what I've suggested, that would change. Enemies hit just as hard. There are just as many of them. With just as many other skulls. Someone has to survive through every checkpoint.
There is also a big difference between a good challenge and something that's just stupidly hard. I'd like it more towards the former, personally.
Resolving the Solo vs. Co-op difficulty disparity
by Cody Miller 
, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, November 29, 2014, 09:53 (3445 days ago) @ RC
More Challenge?
With checkpoints re-introduced to Nightfall, and revives eliminated, it'd be conceptually simple to increase the challenge again (if desirable) by reducing the frequency of checkpoints. At the extreme end, you could eliminate checkpoints entirely again. But this time, if a co-op teammate died, they'd stay dead for the rest of the strike. You'd have to think carefully whether to continue with fewer players or start over.
This is how it is in the raid on hard. If you are about to finish a segment, you will more than likely plow forward. If not, usually everybody just wipes so you have a full team again. There are about 4 checkpoints over the course of the raid where dead players will be revived (after all the confluxes, after oracles, after templar, after gatekeeper.) All this does is place an execution barrier in place, so that it is harder to carry weaker players. For the raid, this makes sense, but for nightfall I think players should be able to help each other out more easily.
I like the way it is currently.
Resolving the Solo vs. Co-op difficulty disparity
by RC , UK, Saturday, November 29, 2014, 14:13 (3445 days ago) @ Cody Miller
For the raid, this makes sense, but for nightfall I think players should be able to help each other out more easily.
I like the way it is currently.
So what about Solo Players then? Screw 'em?
(from the low volume and type of replies I'm getting, I think this may be a "stop smoking your crack pipe, RC" kind of moment :( )
Resolving the Solo vs. Co-op difficulty disparity
by Xenos , Shores of Time, Saturday, November 29, 2014, 14:28 (3445 days ago) @ RC
For the raid, this makes sense, but for nightfall I think players should be able to help each other out more easily.
I like the way it is currently.
So what about Solo Players then? Screw 'em?(from the low volume and type of replies I'm getting, I think this may be a "stop smoking your crack pipe, RC" kind of moment :( )
Nah, I think they just mean if anything they should just dial back the difficulty a little bit for solo players, but the leave rest the same.
Resolving the Solo vs. Co-op difficulty disparity
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, November 29, 2014, 16:54 (3445 days ago) @ RC
For the raid, this makes sense, but for nightfall I think players should be able to help each other out more easily.
I like the way it is currently.
So what about Solo Players then? Screw 'em?
Kinda. The best stuff in the game is done with friends. That's just how it is.
Resolving the Solo vs. Co-op difficulty disparity
by scarab , Sunday, November 30, 2014, 14:26 (3444 days ago) @ Cody Miller
I'd like to do the dust palace strike solo (I know I can) but the game always finds me someone in the last part.
But I do have more fun with other people.
Talking about the dust palace strike... I've soloed from the start about 4 times now. I assume the other players quit as soon as it started; they weren't there when I had to open the first door. What is it about that strike? Why do people quit out of it?