Bungie GDC panel rundown (Destiny)

by electricpirate @, Saturday, March 07, 2015, 03:23 (2668 days ago)

Polygon had some nice rundowns of bungie's panels at GDC.

Story about how the loot cave ended up in the game, and why Bungie thought it wouldn't be an issue.
http://www.polygon.com/2015/3/6/8152719/destiny-loot-cave-omnivore-bungie-gdc-2015

A session on localaziation in Destiny, especially in regards to the tower,
http://www.polygon.com/2015/3/6/8159595/destiny-bungie-localization-gdc

I liked this bit from it,

Slattery said that the game's opening cinematic featuring a trio of astronauts setting foot on Mars was also a problem. Originally, Bungie planned to render the cinematic in the game's seven languages, but as development progressed, they quickly ran out of disc space for those different versions of the video. Their compromise? Include a handful of languages to make the opener feel international — perhaps the three astronauts were Brazilian, American and Japanese, he mused.

Finally, my favorite piece on getting the first person camera right. Lots of really smart, granular stuff here, and a few gif's and movies to help; make the point. I really like this one, as it's all super chunky, usable information. The writeup (or the talk?) kind of skims over some interesting points though (Namely, how lowering the crosshairs improves the amount of peripheral vision).
http://www.polygon.com/2015/3/5/8158001/destiny-animation-motion-sickness

All three are worth reading.

Deej, is Bungie going to put these slides up on B.net?

They can never get their story straight with the loot cave.

by scarab @, Saturday, March 07, 2015, 06:50 (2668 days ago) @ electricpirate

Article claims some Bungie dude said,

The funny thing is, we knew about this before launch," he said. "We knew this was a potentially exploitable activity. But we didn't care, because we said the actual drop rate per minute spent is not any different than anything else. So you actually will get less loot doing this per hour than just playing the game.

So the loot cave activity will give the same loot per minute as any other activity therefore you will get less loot per minute doing the loot cave activity.

Wat?

The article says,

To Bungie, it wasn't a big deal. The developers believed that, even if players discovered the Loot Cave, they wouldn't waste their time there because the enemies were low-level and unlikely to drop anything of significant value.

There may have been a patch released much later on to have higher level enemies drop better loot but at the time of the loot cave all enemies dropped the same loot.

Were the article writers just talking out of their arses or did Bungie say that in the talk? Did Bungie lie about their own game or did they just, conveniently, forgot how their game used to work?

They can never get their story straight with the loot cave.

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Sunday, March 08, 2015, 09:46 (2667 days ago) @ scarab

So the loot cave activity will give the same loot per minute as any other activity therefore you will get less loot per minute doing the loot cave activity.

Wat?

Presumably the drop rate is the same but you're not getting "end of mission" rewards, so overall you're getting less than doing say, Tiger Strikes?

in those days you weren't guaranteed drops end strikes

by scarab @, Sunday, March 08, 2015, 21:51 (2666 days ago) @ someotherguy

And the loot cave gave more mats, more chance of public events with better chance of gold tier success. More kills. Yada yada.

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Also:

by uberfoop @, Seattle-ish, Saturday, March 07, 2015, 07:10 (2668 days ago) @ electricpirate

High-level software engineering:

http://www.gamespot.com/videos/destiny-six-years-in-the-making-gdc-2015/2300-6423668/

Also also, from the Polygon article:

Only late in the design process did they finally settle on 72 degrees.

Wish I'd seen this talk...

Also:

by electricpirate @, Monday, March 09, 2015, 01:23 (2666 days ago) @ uberfoop

High-level software engineering:

http://www.gamespot.com/videos/destiny-six-years-in-the-making-gdc-2015/2300-6423668/

Also also, from the Polygon article:

Only late in the design process did they finally settle on 72 degrees.


Wish I'd seen this talk...

FOV is a fraught design issue. Lots of players demand configurable FOV, but it's a pretty valuable component to have control over in design. Changing the FOV changes the relative values of long range combat, close range combat and flanking. There can also be technical issues especially on those previous gen consoles though, feel free to correct me here, as you are a much more experienced graphics programmer than I). For some players though, the wrong FOV generates motion sickness (which is why this talk sounds really interesting).

Not to mention that FOV is pretty fluid when you are talking about a game that relies on ADS, and routinely pops out to third person view.

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6 Years in the Making

by Blackt1g3r @, Login is from an untrusted domain in MN, Monday, March 09, 2015, 16:06 (2666 days ago) @ uberfoop

That talk was really great from a software engineering perspective. It's very validating to see that other people find the same kinds of problems with software engineering even when they are from completely different fields.

Bungie GDC panel rundown

by EffortlessFury @, Saturday, March 07, 2015, 12:23 (2668 days ago) @ electricpirate

I dunno if its entirely true that the Loot Rate/Hour was the same with and without the Loot Cave at that time period was actually the same. I could play for an hour and get like, 3 or 4 loot drops through normal play vs. the Loot Cave's 20-30.

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Maybe they mean...

by Blackt1g3r @, Login is from an untrusted domain in MN, Saturday, March 07, 2015, 12:25 (2668 days ago) @ EffortlessFury

Good loot drops? So you get more loot but it's generally low quality loot. The higher quality loot spawns at the same rate as elsewhere?

That's what I was thinking

by Dagoonite, Somewhere in Iowa, lost in a cornfield., Saturday, March 07, 2015, 13:03 (2668 days ago) @ Blackt1g3r

They mention that the enemies are rather low level, so the rate of good loot drops being low. I mean, I get many more blues when doing a ROC strike than I do out of running two hours of patrols (unless I'm hunting public events) so I took it as the loot cave gives you vendor trash.

That said, I do still find the weak loot cave on Venus helpful when I'm low on class-specific mats. In twenty minutes, I've gotten enough greens to give me some breathing room and get all my upgrades done.

It dropped purples and they were pretty rare in those days

by scarab @, Saturday, March 07, 2015, 13:44 (2668 days ago) @ Dagoonite

- No text -

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Maybe it meant actual purples.

by Funkmon @, Sunday, March 08, 2015, 20:32 (2666 days ago) @ scarab

- No text -

yes let's just grasp at straws and make stuff up

by scarab @, Sunday, March 08, 2015, 20:54 (2666 days ago) @ Funkmon

Actual purples, pretend purples...

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yes let's just grasp at straws and make stuff up

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Sunday, March 08, 2015, 21:21 (2666 days ago) @ scarab

Well, back then, engram colors meant nothing at all, so it's not actually grasping at straws here...

Still, for the exact same reason, the loot cave was probably a higher meaningful loot/time activity than anything else at the time.

loot cave purples were no less real than any other purples

by scarab @, Sunday, March 08, 2015, 21:47 (2666 days ago) @ ZackDark

There wasn't a special set of unreal purples made just for the loot cave.

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loot cave purples were no less real than any other purples

by Robot Chickens, Sunday, March 08, 2015, 22:39 (2666 days ago) @ scarab

At that point, purple engrams were not guaranteed to decode to legendary gear. They could decode green- hence the fake purples. Later, Bungie patched it so that purple engrams were guaranteed to decode as legendary gear. However, the rate of having actual legendary equipment drop was kept the same so purple engrams became much more of a rarity.

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loot cave purples were no less real than any other purples

by slycrel ⌂, Monday, March 09, 2015, 02:19 (2666 days ago) @ Robot Chickens

This actually made me sad. The actual rate didn't change, but before, I'd get a legendary every 8-10 hours of play. Now... well, I can't remember the last time I got a purple engram drop. It's been a few months probably.

There's something to be said for more consistent drops, even if they didn't end up being true legendaries. Illusion of progress and all that.

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loot cave purples were no less real than any other purples

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Monday, March 09, 2015, 02:31 (2666 days ago) @ Robot Chickens
edited by Ragashingo, Monday, March 09, 2015, 02:48

At that point, purple engrams were not guaranteed to decode to legendary gear. They could decode green- hence the fake purples. Later, Bungie patched it so that purple engrams were guaranteed to decode as legendary gear. However, the rate of having actual legendary equipment drop was kept the same so purple engrams became much more of a rarity.

I've always had the suspicion that there aren't just five types of engrams that drop (white, green, blue, purple, gold) but instead there were and still are many more. Like there were four types of purple, ones that were actually green, that were blue, that were true purples, and were gold. Same for the other colors. After the big Cryptarch change I think there are less engram variants, just white, green, two types of blue (true blue, and purple blues) two types of purple (real purple, and gold) and gold.

This would be why right after the change the old purples still did the old behavior... because you might actually have had saved up greens and blues and golds that were pretending to be purple...etc.

irrelevant: decode levels are global, cave dropped at higher

by scarab @, Monday, March 09, 2015, 04:16 (2666 days ago) @ Robot Chickens

Rate because you killed at higher rate. Fast respawn plus fast kills. Number of drops is proportional to numbers killed.

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irrelevant: decode levels are global, cave dropped at higher

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Monday, March 09, 2015, 04:28 (2666 days ago) @ scarab

Rate because you killed at higher rate. Fast respawn plus fast kills. Number of drops is proportional to numbers killed.

How much higher? On Venus I can do that little loop in the Cinders where the Fallen are on the ground and up the slope to the caves that eventually lead to the House of Winter Ketch. The quick respawns there give me a very nearly unending number of enemies without standing in one single spot. Yeah, Thrall might be a bit easier to kill but you're talking one bullet vs two per enemy at best. A difference of a few enemies per hour isn't significant... I'd think that things like Strikes and missions would likewise provide roughly the same number of enemies per hour as well. Especially the newer Hive ones where they throw 40+ Thrall at you within a minute or two...

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Dude

by Robot Chickens, Monday, March 09, 2015, 14:31 (2666 days ago) @ scarab

You said this:

Lets grasp at straws and make stuff up. Actual purples, pretend purples...

To which I said this:

At that point, purple engrams were not guaranteed to decode to legendary gear. They could decode green- hence the fake purples. Later, Bungie patched it so that purple engrams were guaranteed to decode as legendary gear. However, the rate of having actual legendary equipment drop was kept the same so purple engrams became much more of a rarity.You changed the subject and said this to make it seem like my post was out of context.

Note that no mention of a cave can be found. Then you responded:

irrelevant: decode levels are global, cave dropped at higher [r]ate because you killed at higher rate. Fast respawn plus fast kills. Number of drops is proportional to numbers killed.

You cannot call my post irrelevant when your basic premise is that people are making crap up and I called you on it. I never said anything about the loot cave. That is a separate thing that just seems to tickle your fancy, but I am skeptical about you globalizing your experience of it.

It was a patrol spawn point

by scarab @, Saturday, March 07, 2015, 13:36 (2668 days ago) @ Blackt1g3r
edited by scarab, Saturday, March 07, 2015, 13:46

so unless there was code to reduce drop quality near a spawn point...

the quality of the drop would be regular patrol quality.

Loot cave farming was the most efficient way to get patrol loot.

I don't recall strike loot being of better quality than patrol loot except for the house banners and you certainly wasn't as time efficient.

But let's not waste time trying to invent things that Bungie might have meant. If they have a solid case then let them present it with the facts and figures to back it up.

I think that the real reason they changed the loot cave was because it made their game a laughing stock. It was an internet meme.

An hours long youtube of someone playing patrol would be boring to watch. But you couldn't be certain that the person doing it was as bored as the watcher.

5 secs into a one minute Youtube vid and you realize that people would rather stand there and shoot into a cave than engage with the gameplay mechanics as Bungie intended. You immediately see the game as a joke.

Bungie couldn't allow that.

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It was a patrol spawn point

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Saturday, March 07, 2015, 13:45 (2668 days ago) @ scarab

so unless there was code to reduce drop quality near a spawn point...

the quality of the drop would be regular patrol quality.

Loot cave farming was the most efficient way to get patrol loot.

I don't recall strike loot being of better quality than patrol loot except for the house banners and you certainly wasn't as time efficient.

But let's not waste time trying to invent things that Bungie might have meant. If they have a solid case then let them present it with the facts and figures to back it up.

I think that the real reason they changed the loot cave was because it made their game a laughing stock. It was a internet meme.

An hours long youtube of someone playing patrol would be boring to watch. But you couldn't be certain that the person doing it was as bored as the watcher.

5 secs into a one minute Youtube vid and you realize that people would rather stand there and shoot into a cave than engage with the gameplay mechanics as Bungie intended. You immediately see the game as a joke.

Bungie couldn't allow that.

Patrol loot is the worst loot in the game. You may get more drops but they're almost all green, the occasional blue, and once every year or two you might get a purple.

Compare that to running the level 24 strike playlist. Mostly blue drops, higher chance of getting purples, plus the end of the mission drops.

The loot cave really wasn't an efficient way to earn loot.

It was efficient: tons of blues, a fair number of purples

by scarab @, Saturday, March 07, 2015, 14:02 (2668 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY
edited by scarab, Saturday, March 07, 2015, 14:06

in those days strikes did not drop amazing loot. I don't know what the game drops these days but I loot cave farmed then played strikes. I wasn't getting better drops in the strikes.

Strikes were my favourite part of the game and I played them into the ground. Nevertheless it was definitely worth my time to start my day at the Tower to pick up bounties then go to the cave with mates to:

  • get loot
  • pick up free heavy ammo
  • do warsat public events
  • kill lots of high level enemies when they moved against each other
  • do patrol missions
  • achieve bounties
  • pick up some spin-metal
  • plan the rest of the day
  • move on to story missions and strikes

I also saw notifications for grimmoire cards unlocking for classes that I didn't have. Did the game put me into a fireteam because a group of us were killing enemies together?

My cryptarch rating was through the roof from the amount of gear I was decrypting. And he gave prezzies on each level achieved.

As soon as the cave was patched I had to move over to farming the divide. I picked up more spin metal but it took longer to get the other stuff I needed from patrolling. The downgrade was immediately noticeable.

How much loot cave farming did you do?

It was a patrol spawn point

by scarab @, Saturday, March 07, 2015, 14:18 (2668 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY
edited by scarab, Saturday, March 07, 2015, 14:26

Patrol loot is the worst loot in the game.

Source? Figures?

And, please, don't drag out Raid figures, you need to go back in time.

I'm quoting a commenter on the article,

Destiny was released on Sept 9. The Vault of Glass opened on Sept 16. The original Loot Cave was patched out on Sept 25.

And please explain this,

The funny thing is, we knew about this before launch," he said. "We knew this was a potentially exploitable activity. But we didn't care, because we said the actual drop rate per minute spent is not any different than anything else. So you actually will get less loot doing this per hour than just playing the game.

That's Bungie saying that.

You may get more drops but they're almost all green, the occasional blue, and once every year or two you might get a purple.

Perhaps if you do it wrong. Purples were not that rare at the cave. I know because I got them. How much loot caving did you do? You realize that it was much more time efficient than regular patrolling?

It's L/T (loot divided by time spent getting it).

In those days we were under-levelled and couldn't strike as fast.

You need to account for time spent reaching the end of a strike then divide L by that.

Compare that to running the level 24 strike playlist. Mostly blue drops, higher chance of getting purples, plus the end of the mission drops.

The loot cave really wasn't an efficient way to earn loot.

I did lots of both and disagree. You are also discounting the things I mentioned in my other post.

You can pick up a piece of spin metal and try to kill a public event run-away bullet sponge as an under-levelled Guardian during the Sepkis strike but that was never an efficient use of your time. You'd be starting the strike proper with no heavy ammo and maybe only achieve bronze or silver. It takes real skill to avoid a gold tier when loot caving.

It was a patrol spawn point

by Claude Errera @, Saturday, March 07, 2015, 21:13 (2667 days ago) @ scarab

I don't think anybody's arguing with your personal experience - but your personal experience is not average. Most loot farmers were much less efficient. (I know this because Bungie says so - and I don't believe they're lying.)

If your thesis is that Bungie is lying, outright... well, I don't have any way to disabuse you of that notion, no matter how wrong I'm sure it is.

do you agree with Bungie's statement that high enemies

by scarab @, Sunday, March 08, 2015, 04:54 (2667 days ago) @ Claude Errera

Dropped more loot. I'm talking about back in the loot cave days.

Was that a true statement?

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It always seemed to me that all enemies had equal drop rates

by Kahzgul, Sunday, March 08, 2015, 09:11 (2667 days ago) @ scarab

Outside of raid loots, I don't think any particular enemy has ever struck me as more "lootful" or whatever. The only purple drops I've ever gotten have been from:

- Loot Cave (1 drop, took me over 2 hours, blech not worth it imo).
- Random thrall guy during daily heroic.
- Venus loot cave area (but randomly - I wasn't farming; just passing through).

Versus Roc strike rewards (1/3 chance of legendary, takes 10-20 minutes to do a strike, so - assuming random drops are possible - more than double the returns as the loot cave).

Mostly though, I PvP until I can buy the legendary I want, and I do nightfalls and raids for the others. Random drops can kiss my ass, and I avoid reliance on them whenever possible.

"Random drops can kiss my ass, and I avoid reliance on them"

by yakaman, Monday, March 09, 2015, 14:40 (2666 days ago) @ Kahzgul

This should be line 1, page 1 of any respectable Destiny Player's guide.

That being said, in the early days I farmed the ever-living shit out of the loot cave. I got TONS of blues and a decent amount of purples, far more than what I'd get out of the Strike playlist (which I also played devoutly - Scarab's experience is similar to mine).

But, I'm pretty sure I've gotten exactly jack-shit from random drops. Well, okay, I've gotten the following:

  • Sunbreakers from a Purple dropped in VoG in October
  • ...

Point being, the loot cave (IME) dropped a hell of a lot more engrams, and those engrams translated into precisely fuck-all.

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+1

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, March 09, 2015, 14:42 (2666 days ago) @ yakaman

That was the point I was trying to make. Sure, you get more engrams. But in terms of "the amount of time spent" in relation to "the amount of desirable gear acquired" the loot cave was just about the least efficient way to play Destiny.

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Compared to what, though?

by CyberKN ⌂ @, Oh no, Destiny 2 seems complicated, Monday, March 09, 2015, 14:56 (2666 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

In those days, strikes would only reward you with green or blue pieces of armour- no engrams, except for the ones that dropped from enemies you killed.

Yes, you had the nightfall and weekly heroic and VoG, but Bungie only permits you to receive loot from those once per week. So when you're done that, the loot cave becomes your best source of loot due to the incredible number of enemies that would spawn. There's no way you could match that same volume of kills/engrams doing anything else in the game.

The fact that Yakaman has had back luck with decoding engrams into exotics doesn't change that.

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Compared to what, though?

by Kahzgul, Monday, March 09, 2015, 19:54 (2665 days ago) @ CyberKN

I'm not sure what you're asking. Roc Strikes can drop Legendaries, but that's not even what I'm talking about. You get marks and you can buy some awesome weapons from any of the tower vendors. That's what I mean. Go grind out your marks and then buy some sweet guns. It's a guaranteed return.

Getting loot is a two step process. Set a goal. Achieve it.

If your step 1 is "Earn 150 marks," then your step 2 is easily achieved in as few as 8 days (the 100 marks/week cap makes me sad).
If your step 1 is "win the lottery" then your step 2 will likely never happen. This doesn't mean that no one has ever won the lottery, but it certainly isn't the most pragmatic option.

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But Gjallarhorn!

by dogcow @, Hiding from Bob, in the vent core., Monday, March 09, 2015, 20:09 (2665 days ago) @ Kahzgul

If your step 1 is "Earn 150 marks," then your step 2 is easily achieved in as few as 8 days (the 100 marks/week cap makes me sad).
If your step 1 is "win the lottery" then your step 2 will likely never happen. This doesn't mean that no one has ever won the lottery, but it certainly isn't the most pragmatic option.

I agree with your statement, with the exception of Gjallarhorn and the like (not that I've heard of anyone who actually got one from the great and holy loot cave).

The loot cave certainly FELT good, it sure FELT great seeing that dry and barren floor turned into a shiny disco floor of loot, but it was boring, and in reality I think you were better off earning marks & getting guaranteed weapons. Unfortunately, there's just some weapons that are only obtainable by random chance (purchasing from Xûr is random chance too as his offerings are random) and at this point I would probably shoot a cave for a few hours if it meant I would get a sweet sweet Gjallarhorn (again, not that I've ever heard of someone getting a sweet sweet Gjallarhorn from the loot cave, tho' I DID get an exotic from a Legendary engram dropped by a knight in the rocketyard). I wonder how long it would take to get 10k kills in the loot cave, hmm.


<Hangs head>

false dichotomy

by scarab @, Tuesday, March 10, 2015, 04:53 (2665 days ago) @ dogcow

Only you guys are suggesting that loot cavers should avoid buying vendor gear or doing weeklies.

Marks are capped as are the weekly or daily activities. Loot cave was the cherry on top. (As Bungie would say)

Loot cave was the most efficient form of patrol

by scarab @, Monday, March 09, 2015, 15:25 (2666 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

so could not possibly be the least efficient way to play Destiny.

Though I grant you that you get less spin metal. To make up the deficiit you would have to do some some normal patrolling that was less efficient in terms of:

  • loot
  • killing
  • high level enemies moving against each other
  • public event guaranteed gold tiers
  • cryptarch ranking
  • grimoire ranking
  • weapon parts

.

You can pick up some spin metal whilst doing missions near the loot cave but you would get more spin metal foraging around the edges of the divide.

Nevertheless, patrolling became much more time intensive once the loot cave was gone. And foraging around the edges of the divide was a drag.

Have you played Destiny without patrolling?

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Loot cave was the most efficient form of patrol

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, March 09, 2015, 15:44 (2666 days ago) @ scarab

so could not possibly be the least efficient way to play Destiny.

Though I grant you that you get less spin metal. To make up the deficiit you would have to do some some normal patrolling that was less efficient in terms of:

  • loot
  • killing
  • high level enemies moving against each other
  • public event guaranteed gold tiers
  • cryptarch ranking
  • grimoire ranking
  • weapon parts

.

You can pick up some spin metal whilst doing missions near the loot cave but you would get more spin metal foraging around the edges of the divide.

Nevertheless, patrolling became much more time intensive once the loot cave was gone. And foraging around the edges of the divide was a drag.

Have you played Destiny without patrolling?

Generally speaking, I almost never play patrol mode. I used to do it to farm materials, and I still chase down the occasional public event, but that's about it. I'll grant you that the loot cave was more efficient than any other form of playing patrol mode, but that's not saying much in the context of the whole game. When I'm not raiding, I'm playing to upgrade gear & earn new gear. So I need to complete bounties, earn glimmer, find materials, and kill lots of stuff at the same time. The high-level strikes are by far the best way to do all of this at the same time (they didn't give materials back in the loot cave days, but even so). I run strikes with weapon XP and glimmer boosters enabled while completing as many bounties simultaneously as I can. By the end of the average ROC strike I've found 8-10 engrams (mostly blue), plus the XP, marks, and drops at the end of the mission. The average strike takes me about 10-15 minutes. Plus now we have the ROC strikes, which give me a purple engram every 2-3 missions. When you add the fact that we can now buy materials with marks, there is almost no reason to ever go on patrol with a high level character, except for the fun of it :)

so had we had high level characters and raids and roc strike

by scarab @, Monday, March 09, 2015, 15:53 (2666 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

s and better rewarding tiger strikes

then the loot cave would have been a bad idea though still better than normal patrolling.

I wouldn't argue with that.

What is this exclusion zone thing that people keep mentioning. I know where it is but why has exclusion zone farming become a thing?

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Exclusion Zone Mission farming

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Monday, March 09, 2015, 17:31 (2666 days ago) @ scarab

And yes, it's a thing now. It has, pretty much, the most reliable/profitable Major spawning checkpoint in the game other than the Gatekeeper checkpoint. For glimmer farming, it is definitely a thing. For engrams? Hadn't really heard it before.

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so had we had high level characters and raids and roc strike

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Monday, March 09, 2015, 17:32 (2666 days ago) @ scarab

What is this exclusion zone thing that people keep mentioning. I know where it is but why has exclusion zone farming become a thing?

Because that level happens to have a very high concentration of majors in a small space, and crucially it's in a place which is easy to repeat by dying and starting back at a checkpoint. Majors not only give more glimmer, but also drop the glimmer consumables in the first place, allowing you to continue the process without running out.

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Enjoying Destiny

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, March 09, 2015, 16:21 (2666 days ago) @ scarab
edited by Kermit, Monday, March 09, 2015, 16:25


Nevertheless, patrolling became much more time intensive once the loot cave was gone. And foraging around the edges of the divide was a drag.

Heh, I have a friend who played the demo for two months and whose absolutely favorite activity is farming in the Divide. He was ticked when they effectively lowered the value of spinmetal by removing the ability to convert spinmetal into marks.

Here's another thought: consider that it might be likely that the best way to enjoy Destiny is not to try to get everything you can as soon as possible. It's no biggie to have a character miss an activity before the next reset. I have three 30+ characters and five characters total. At some point I anticipate having six high-ranked characters, one of each class on the two platforms. I have a few (bendable) rules regarding Destiny that keep it fun. Everybody seems to do most of these, but it seems like some are unique among DBOers.

1) Avoid patrols activities unless there are two or more applicable bounties.

2) In non-raid contexts, use consumables until I'm out (except black wax, which has other uses presently).

3) Pick up materials as I need them, but don't actively seek them unless I'm close the having what I need for an upgrade. Buy whatever I'm running low on.

4) Don't do the same high-level activity more than once a day. This is why I don't like running multiple nightfalls on co-op night.

5) Try to take alternating days off. (I usually fail at this one, but there are days when I just try to get the gold event package for a few characters.)

6) Experiment with different guns and subclasses.

7) Try to get better at crucible. :)

I may burn out using this approach, but so far it's working pretty well.

Kermit

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Enjoying Destiny

by Up North 65 @, Monday, March 09, 2015, 21:01 (2665 days ago) @ Kermit

Its scary that he knows the location of every chest.

do you agree with Bungie's statement that high enemies

by Claude Errera @, Sunday, March 08, 2015, 16:57 (2667 days ago) @ scarab

Dropped more loot. I'm talking about back in the loot cave days.

Was that a true statement?

I have no personal experience - I wasn't playing Destiny, really, back in the loot cave days. If they say it's true, I believe them.

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do you agree with Bungie's statement that high enemies

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, March 09, 2015, 02:45 (2666 days ago) @ Claude Errera

If they say it's true, I believe them.

Then we CAN go to Saturn after all! Weeeeeeeee!

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Cut It Out.

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Monday, March 09, 2015, 03:08 (2666 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Yes, Saturn got cut after the video was made but if we go by your logic Bungie should never tell us anything ever because something might change. I want a Bungie that is more open, more communicative, more sharing, and is able to accept more early feedback from its fanbase. That's never going to happen if people like you keep declaring them liars over one thing that was only ever mentioned once in all of Destiny's interviews and promotional videos.

In short, do as Cosgrove says and:

[image]

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Take. A. Joke.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, March 09, 2015, 03:56 (2666 days ago) @ Ragashingo

- No text -

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Take. A. Joke.

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Monday, March 09, 2015, 04:16 (2666 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Ah. So it's a joke now is it? Sure didn't seem like you were joking all the other various times you said they lied about Saturn. Why should I believe you now vs then? But ok, this time you were joking! Sorry for my confusion... ;)

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Take. A. Joke.

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Monday, March 09, 2015, 12:41 (2666 days ago) @ Ragashingo

Look, I try not to get personal on here, but...

The effort you put into tracking everything Cody says is actually more irritating than anything Cody says. Give it a rest.

What effort?

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Monday, March 09, 2015, 14:08 (2666 days ago) @ stabbim

There's a search function. If you're making a point it's only good form to provide evidence :p

/peanutgallery

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What effort?

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Monday, March 09, 2015, 14:26 (2666 days ago) @ someotherguy

There's a search function. If you're making a point it's only good form to provide evidence :p

/peanutgallery

Yes, part of it is that. What I did when looking for the links was type "saturn" into the search box, read through the Cody Miller posts that came up, and link to a few them making sure they actually fit my point. It took all of five minutes maybe.

The other reason I took the effort to provide a few links is a while ago I criticized Cody for saying things as fact with no proof. I was always a fan of linking to sources anyway but after that and especially when dealing with Cody I've tried to have my own proof at hand so I'm not a hypocrite who says one thing and does another.

I realize that having links like that can be irritating or can look like I'm keeping tabs on someone but I'm not. To me its more of wanting to have the source links available to anyone who wants them to begin with instead of having to go back and get them and its my desire to set a good example where when you make a claim you back it up...

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Take. A. Joke.

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Monday, March 09, 2015, 14:17 (2666 days ago) @ stabbim

Look, I try not to get personal on here, but...

The effort you put into tracking everything Cody says is actually more irritating than anything Cody says. Give it a rest.

That you've chosen to speak out means that what I'm doing really bothers you. I am sorry for that. I am always worried that I'm going to go too far. That I'm going to nag too much. That I'm going to make everyone else mad at me like I've apparently done with you. We've never really spoken or engaged much that I can recall but it does sadden me if I alienate anyone by my actions. :(

At the same time, what Cody does really bothers me. Part of my wants to give a list of reasons why (not just a crappy list but a reasoning or discussion or some such thing) but the other part says you are already unhappy with me criticizing too much... so I guess I'll leave it alone and move onto my main point:

I see this board as a place where all of us, you, me, Cody, and everyone else should be free to say what they want. But being free to say what we want should also open us up to criticism and being called out. I think its perfectly ok to try and get someone to change their behavior through active disagreement. Because you spoke up I'll try and dial back my criticism of Cody. I think you have a valid point that maybe I have been going too far lately. But what I won't do is "give it a rest" because I think I have the same right to criticize as you and Cody do.

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Take. A. Joke.

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Monday, March 09, 2015, 17:41 (2666 days ago) @ Ragashingo

That you've chosen to speak out means that what I'm doing really bothers you. I am sorry for that. I am always worried that I'm going to go too far. That I'm going to nag too much. That I'm going to make everyone else mad at me like I've apparently done with you. We've never really spoken or engaged much that I can recall but it does sadden me if I alienate anyone by my actions. :(

Nah, not me personally. I just thought Cody was genuinely making a joke. I may have also been in a bad mood this morning. I blame DST.

I think I have the same right to criticize as you and Cody do.

Absolutely.

Take. A. Joke.

by Dagoonite, Somewhere in Iowa, lost in a cornfield., Monday, March 09, 2015, 04:28 (2666 days ago) @ Cody Miller

It isn't a joke, though. It's an abbreviated form of every single other post that you make. All you ever do is post about how horrible Bungie and Destiny are. You nitpick, you find any reason imaginable to complain, and you claim that you could do better than they could. Some of your complaints are so trite that it boggles the mind. That's what you do, Cody. That's how we see you.

I have seen you post only one positive thing on these forums. ONE. So, yes, every single person here is going to look at everything you post as more of the same damn thing that you post all day erry day. It's to the point where we mock you about it and don't even try to hide the fact that we're doing it.

When you make a comment like that, nobody is going to see it like a joke. We're just going to see more of your venom.

I'm gonna step away from the forum for a few days before I say some things that I'll regret later.

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Take. A. Joke.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, March 09, 2015, 04:55 (2666 days ago) @ Dagoonite

and you claim that you could do better than they could.

This is false. I would never claim such a thing. I have zero experience making a game, especially one of that size, and I have zero resources with which to do it.

Now, If I had a hundred million dollars, then I absolutely could… but only by hiring the people who have already demonstrated they can do better. But that is simply not going to happen.

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Take. A. Joke.

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, March 09, 2015, 09:55 (2666 days ago) @ Cody Miller

and you claim that you could do better than they could.


This is false. I would never claim such a thing. I have zero experience making a game, especially one of that size, and I have zero resources with which to do it.

Now, If I had a hundred million dollars, then I absolutely could…

Some ass would still buy codysgameisnotcanon.com. ;)

Take. A. Joke.

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Monday, March 09, 2015, 14:16 (2666 days ago) @ Cody Miller

and you claim that you could do better than they could.


This is false. I would never claim such a thing. I have zero experience making a game, especially one of that size, and I have zero resources with which to do it.

Now, If I had a hundred million dollars, then I absolutely could… but only by hiring the people who have already demonstrated they can do better. But that is simply not going to happen.

No, you've never said the words "I could do it better myself with my current resources" verbatim. But you say you could do better if you had Bungie's resources? How is that any different?

You have stated - multiple times - that you could do a better job. Obviously no-one believes you mean right now, with your current resources. You don't get out of that one with slippery wording.

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Take. A. Joke.

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, March 09, 2015, 16:14 (2666 days ago) @ someotherguy

In my time on the forums (which is admittedly a lot shorter than most of you) I've seen Cody say things to the effect of "I saw this problem coming, why didn't Bungie?" or "I/we found this problem after a couple hours of playing, why didn't Bungie notice it?".

Personally, statements like that do not come off to me as "I can make a better game than Bungie".

I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth (but here I go, lol), but to me Cody's complaints almost always boil down to an question of "how could a game developed over so much time, by such a huge and experienced team, suffer from so many problems which to us seem instantly apparent" (Cody, please jump in if I'm off the mark here).

Now personally, I sometimes agree, sometimes not. As I have pointed out in the past, the existence of a problem is not proof that Bungie isn't aware of it. Destiny is easily one of the most systemically complicated games I've ever played. For every problem we see, who knows how many we DON'T see because Bungie fixed them before they got out the door. I can't begin to imagine the logistical nightmare that developing and testing a game like Destiny must be.

Still, we're the hardcore fans, and we like to do some armchair game designing (as the hardcore fans are want to do). The community has made countless valid criticisms and suggestions in the hope of improving Destiny, and Bungie, much to their credit, is doing the best they can to listen to our concerns and slowly reshape the game with our suggestions in mind. Still, it is important that we as a community try to avoid jumping to conclusions while making suggestions or pointing out flaws. Again, just because there is a problem in Destiny doesn't mean Bungie isn't aware of it :)

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Take. A. Joke.

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Monday, March 09, 2015, 16:51 (2666 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

The way I look at it is that many of my favorite things were made by hugely smart, experienced people... and were almost total disasters!

Halo almost didn't have system-link multiplayer... and of course changed from real time tactical to 3rd person open world to FPS...
Halo 2 was a train wreck of a development process that saw the end of the game lopped off.
Tomb Raider 2013 suffered huge development challenges and didn't start to come together for years
Aquaria started as an RPG and, if I read between the lines right, the lead developer nearly committed suicide making it and his artist friend will now no longer work with him because of that.
Toy Story was actually cancelled briefly because Disney, of all companies, didn't know how to make a good animated movie
A Bug's Life was Pixar's Halo 2 in that it very nearly broke people and friendships
The iPhone 4 suffered from the "You're holding it wrong" antenna / signal strength issue
Destiny's engineering, we now know, took some two years longer than Bungie hoped and did cut into gameplay / world development time.

So when someone says they have an easy fix or they could do something better if they had the money I have to be highly skeptical. I think the reality is doing complex things really well is really hard no matter how many people you have or what level of talent you possess, or how much money you can throw at the problem.

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Take. A. Joke.

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Monday, March 09, 2015, 17:43 (2666 days ago) @ Ragashingo

Tomb Raider 2013 suffered huge development challenges and didn't start to come together for years

I just recently learned that myself, and it blew my mind. At no point when playing Tomb Raider did I feel like it was a game that was hastily thrown together after a period of failure.

BTW, said game is free to download on the 360 RIGHT NOW.

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That's not a joke. That's important information.

by iconicbanana, C2-H5-OH + NAD, Portland, OR, Monday, March 09, 2015, 17:47 (2666 days ago) @ stabbim

- No text -

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Take. A. Joke.

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Monday, March 09, 2015, 17:51 (2665 days ago) @ stabbim

Yeah. I need to at least click the get button on it. I was lazy with Reach and later realized that having it digital instead of in some box somewhere would have been really nice. :)

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Keep in mind...

by Kahzgul, Monday, March 09, 2015, 00:31 (2666 days ago) @ scarab

Before the Cryptarch change, you saw a LOT more purple engrams. And so the loot cave was full of the buggers. but 60% of those were really blues in disguise, if you recall. You can't compare loot drops pre cryptarch and post cryptarch patch and say that you used to get so many more purple engrams way back when. I mean, we all did, but we didn't get any more purple guns.

Other currency

by electricpirate @, Monday, March 09, 2015, 00:43 (2666 days ago) @ EffortlessFury

I dunno if its entirely true that the Loot Rate/Hour was the same with and without the Loot Cave at that time period was actually the same. I could play for an hour and get like, 3 or 4 loot drops through normal play vs. the Loot Cave's 20-30.

I thought the comparison wasn't "Loot cave vs. normal play" but "Loot cave vs. specifically running missions/bounties/crucible to generate faction currencies" where you could get the legendary gear you need.

the other currencies were weekly capped, cave was not

by scarab @, Monday, March 09, 2015, 04:25 (2666 days ago) @ electricpirate
edited by scarab, Monday, March 09, 2015, 04:28

Capped sources of stuff,

  • Dailey heroic
  • weekly
  • nightfall
  • marks
  • raids - I think you could have done two weeks before cave was patched - many were not of high enough level to raid at that time

so it's a false dichotomy to say cave vs others

by scarab @, Monday, March 09, 2015, 04:28 (2666 days ago) @ scarab

As you can hit caps for others and still farm cave which is never capped.

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Bungie GDC panel rundown

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, March 09, 2015, 05:12 (2666 days ago) @ EffortlessFury

I dunno if its entirely true that the Loot Rate/Hour was the same with and without the Loot Cave at that time period was actually the same. I could play for an hour and get like, 3 or 4 loot drops through normal play vs. the Loot Cave's 20-30.

The problem, according to someone I know who used the cave, was that it was a very quick way to level up to 20. You could shoot the cave for about 3 or 4 hours and be level 20.

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One full GDC panel

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Sunday, March 08, 2015, 01:51 (2667 days ago) @ electricpirate

I front paged it, but I really enjoyed this talk by Chris Butcher:

Interesting information about the new engine the made and how much code they used from the Halo engine and how they developed it without having to start completely from scratch but ended up with an engine that's almost entirely different.

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One full GDC panel

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Sunday, March 08, 2015, 13:25 (2667 days ago) @ Xenos

I loved this. Uberfoop posted it first, and I found it to be excellent.

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One full GDC panel

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Sunday, March 08, 2015, 17:21 (2667 days ago) @ Kermit

Somehow missed his name when checking to see if anyone posted it! Funny enough I even thought "I bet underfoot would love this talk!"

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Months later: Still arguing about the frackin lootcave.

by Revenant1988 ⌂ @, How do I forum?, Monday, March 09, 2015, 11:07 (2666 days ago) @ electricpirate

- No text -

Bungie brought it up again and claimed low level enemies

by scarab @, Monday, March 09, 2015, 15:40 (2666 days ago) @ Revenant1988

dropped less loot than high level enemies back in the cave days. That is what ticked me off.

But it looks like I'm not the only one ticked off. And the Destiny subreddit has generally been very pro-Destiny (the times that I've read it).

I think Bungie should have just let it die. There is no benefit for Bungie to revisit the debacle and I had forgotten about it myself.

But when they claim that higher level enemies dropped better loot back in the cave days... well I just thought: bullshit.

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