I think a lot of journalism, especially games journalism, could do with less rolling over and taking what you're given and more pressing your source for actual answers instead of the platitudes and talking points they're usually focused on repeating. In this case, the interviewer was looking for why they priced it this way and what they thought and felt about the negative side of the fan reaction. In the end, they didn't get much, but I commend them for trying.

They pressed the "creative director" for information on pricing. Woohoo. How about they press him on something he actually knows. That's called knowing your sources, not taking the source you happen to get and push for something they don't know...repeatedly. Last I checked Bungie had 500+ people working there, you can't expect all of them to know everything there is to know about the company. While pricing is interesting, it's also understood to be pretty set.

I have a healthy respect for journalism, having worked in it briefly in college. But I'd rather game journalists focus on the actual mechanics of the game when they talk to game developers, instead of asking questions of them that should be aimed at advertising, marketing, or VPs.

And on top of that, Bungie is tossing in the original game and first two expansions for FREE!
There, now you aren't paying for something you already have.

Except that most hardcore players already have that stuff. Further, many here forked out good money already for Collector's editions or whatever.

They already have stuff given away for free? Well good thing it's free and they can just throw it in the trash.

My point here is that you can't give value to any that was purchased previously. Because their precedent is to make previous DLC free to anyone (i.e. Dark Below became free with release of HoW), then we can assume those would be free anyway. One can't make the claim 'but they're getting the full game too'.

This doesn't pass the smell test. It's business, and if they can get people to pay again, that's fine. But it's sketchy.

Out of curiosity, what would you be willing to pay for that list of collectors edition things? Less than $40 I take it, so maybe $30? $20? Here is that list again to remind you

• Collector's Edition SteelBook™ Case
  
• Modified Treasure Island Book with intro Letter from Cayde-6
  
• Cayde-6's Personal Notes and Illustrations
  
• Collection of Relics and Artifacts
  
• Strange Coin Replica
  
• Three Class Specific Emotes
  
• Three Armor Shaders
  
• Three Exotic Class Items with XP Bonuses

So here we are. The only thing above I care about...and I mean the only thing, are the dance emotes. The only way to get them is to pay $40. Even better (worse?) I only roll 1 character, so it's $40 for 1 dance emote. Now you say, if it's not worth it to you, don't buy it! Which is fine, but I am of the opinion that the dance emotes are what will matter to most people - which is specifically why they were placed behind the $40 paywall. And now we slide into sketchy territory. So, to be clear: to me, specifically, it stinks.

Is there an issue here? I don't know; it will largely depend on how each person feels about the game.

...

Holy shit, did I just spend 10 minutes of my life writing a post about dance emotes?

If that's all I cared about (for one character no less), I certainly wouldn't pay $40, but I guess it depends on how much I cared about that one thing. I loved Arkham Asylum, but I certainly didn't love it enough to buy it again so I could play it again in 3-D, which is the only new thing that buying the game of the year edition would've gotten me. That's part of the calculation, though, figuring out how many people want something and what they're willing to pay. Capitalism is about charging what the market will bear and suffering if you charge more. Other people have outlined how the pricing structure makes sense, and it's a given that there's a cost and benefit to being an early adopter. I'm heavily invested, so it's a fair price for me, but I'm also hoping that Luke is right and it will seem more valuable as we learn more. I'm so glad they're not going the MMO subscription route because that would mean that I would feel the need to justify my play time every month (and I don't need any more justifications).

The only thing that doesn't make sense to me, pricing wise, is that the digital collector's edition. Per the original digital guardian edition, I'd expect it to be less than the physical edition.

And on top of that, Bungie is tossing in the original game and first two expansions for FREE!
There, now you aren't paying for something you already have.

Except that most hardcore players already have that stuff. Further, many here forked out good money already for Collector's editions or whatever.

They already have stuff given away for free? Well good thing it's free and they can just throw it in the trash.

My point here is that you can't give value to any that was purchased previously. Because their precedent is to make previous DLC free to anyone (i.e. Dark Below became free with release of HoW), then we can assume those would be free anyway. One can't make the claim 'but they're getting the full game too'.

They didn't give everyone The Dark Below. I didn't buy any DLC and I'm still locked out of all of the content except Eris's bounties, the public things like the Eyes of Crota, and the multiplayer maps. The only thing they made free recently was the multiplayer maps.

This doesn't pass the smell test. It's business, and if they can get people to pay again, that's fine. But it's sketchy.

Out of curiosity, what would you be willing to pay for that list of collectors edition things? Less than $40 I take it, so maybe $30? $20? Here is that list again to remind you

• Collector's Edition SteelBook™ Case
  
• Modified Treasure Island Book with intro Letter from Cayde-6
  
• Cayde-6's Personal Notes and Illustrations
  
• Collection of Relics and Artifacts
  
• Strange Coin Replica
  
• Three Class Specific Emotes
  
• Three Armor Shaders
  
• Three Exotic Class Items with XP Bonuses

So here we are. The only thing above I care about...and I mean the only thing, are the dance emotes. The only way to get them is to pay $40. Even better (worse?) I only roll 1 character, so it's $40 for 1 dance emote. Now you say, if it's not worth it to you, don't buy it! Which is fine, but I am of the opinion that the dance emotes are what will matter to most people - which is specifically why they were placed behind the $40 paywall. And now we slide into sketchy territory. So, to be clear: to me, specifically, it stinks.

EDIT: missed this the first go-round. I'd like to pay $5 for the dance emote.

Is there an issue here? I don't know; it will largely depend on how each person feels about the game.

...

Holy shit, did I just spend 10 minutes of my life writing a post about dance emotes?

You should see the chat I'm in, I've been arguing for like 40 minutes how Bungie and Activision are not greedy assholes who are doing something clearly wrong by not offering a version with swag and without the other expansions and the base game.

Holy shit, did I just spend 10 minutes of my life writing a post about dance emotes?

Please please, process what you've just come to realize! THIS IS IMPORTANT! FOR YOUR SOUL!

Break the shackles!!! BREAK THEM!

- M

Veteran players are assuming this package is aimed at them. It is not. It quite obviously is not.

Luke: We've set some stuff aside for that edition specifically to really make it appeal to fans who have engaged with the game already.

It's not aimed at us entirely, but they sure as hell knew some of us would consider it, and threw a few things in there to intentionally make the decision harder for existing fans.

Sure, because not doing that is leaving money on the table.

On the other hand, Luke is really not deft enough to talk about this stuff.

Time for Deej to do damage control, I expect-- which I think he's already doing.

If you're honestly considering paying to purchase a bunch of stuff you already own to get some digital swag... the problem is you, not them. Consider stepping away from the game for awhile for your own good.

Ahh, yes. Serves you right for liking something so much you want more of it . . . This is some very backwards logic, Narc.

Swag isn't more of it, though. It's just stuff that communicates to other people, and to yourself when you're not playing the game, that you play and like the game.

But at any rate, the update is up, and now you can shell out the difference in price to just add this stuff, so... yay?

There are also other things that people like so much they want more of it... like alcohol, tobacco and heroin. Some are legal and some aren't, some you just have to exercise restraint with, or avoid altogether. YMMV.

I certainly haven't seen any mention of it being current gen only. Can't think of a reason it would be. It's Destiny is a PS3/360 game, so naturally the DLC would be as well, right?

- No text -

How big exactly is The Taken King.

What I've gathered so far:

-A set of story missions, possibly longer and more cinematic than the previous expansion campaigns.

-A new explorable hub world like the four we got in the core game, this one being a hive captial ship orbiting the rings of Saturn. And it will have its own Patrol mode.

-New enemy faction, The Taken: possessed ghost versions of all four previous factions with new AI behaviors, weapons, etc.

-New Strike(s). I've heard plural in some of the interviews.

Confirmed, they won't say how many, but definitely multiple strikes

-New Raid.

-New multiplayer maps (I thought I heard 4).

4 was what were shown at E3, but there are more.

-New multiplayer gametypes.

-A new subclass and super for each Guardian class.

-And new gear of course.

With 100% new models, even on legendary non-Raid weapons, not just slightly redesigned weapons.

I don't want to be associated with a bunch of needy whiners as the core audience. It's embarrassing.

Someone told me about this part of your reply a minute ago, and I had a eureka moment hearing him say it.

DBO is great because we're generally more moderate and more adult than, say, Reddit, or other sites, and I loved that there wasn't a bunch of entitled bitching about prices or collector's edition content, and have said so plenty of times since Reddit started doing it.

I couldn't put my finger on what I felt when I saw this stuff here at first. It wasn't like "Oh, another shit on Destiny (despite the fact that I play it constantly) thread that takes up the entire page" it was like "Oh, DBO. You've turned into Reddit with longer words and somehow even more entitlement."

What I felt was embarrassment. Thanks for putting that feeling into a word.

A person can take exception to this stuff on principle, not entitlement. Full disclosure: I no longer play Destiny and do not plan on getting The Taken King. The sticking point for me (based on the principle of the matter, not the specifics) comes down to the dance emote.

We all know people will pine for this - long time players especially. It does not matter that it is a stupid little throwaway thing. Agree or disagree?

As a stupid little throwaway thing, it should be no big deal (i.e. not cost-prohibitive) to simply give this away. Agree or disagree?

Since I agree strongly with both statements above, it is my opinion that putting this in with the new Collector's Edition is very specifically targeting long time players. Thus, I find it stinky.

You might say: "Ah yakaman, such a small, stupid thing to complain about...", and while I fully concede that point, I could say the same: "Ah Bungie, what a small, stupid thing to put behind a $40 paywall...".

Is this the greatest offense in the modern-day era? Of course not. Was the interviewer more dickish than he had to be? Maybe...a little bit. Can a person take offense to the stuff being stuck behind a paywall without being entitled/spoiled? I think so.

In the end, does any of this matter? Hell no. But it sure is fun to talk about.

I've said so much on other posts, which I'm sure you'll read. So I won't address everything you write below. I'm sure you understand.

Gambit? Please.

The 'journalist' reveals his bias when he says he's a fan. My take on this is that Luke could tell this kid was upset and agitated. That's no way to conduct yourself professionally. So he decided 'fuck this, this interview's already going to be biased from the get-go' And he just let the honesty fly. How much more honest can you be when you say "It's about value" - and the pause is probably because he saw this kid about to start crying.

Go Luke go!

I agree. I think Luke saw the writing on the wall about how the interview was going to go, and decided not to play nice.

What really makes me crack up is how now the PS4 folks are getting all up in arms - like they completely forgot that for a YEAR they've had exclusive access to content that XBone folks were denied.

I don't think the frustration is totally without merit, but I'll get back to that in a moment.

Like others have (rightly) said - and I'll rephrase the words to how it *should* be stated: All this about some dance moves? ABSURD! If some stupid dance moves is how we now see as 'exploitative' for the core audience -

The specific items that people are getting worked up about are trivial. No doubt about it. But as I'm sure you already know, it's not really about the specific items. People don't like feeling excluded, and they don't like feeling manipulated. I personally don't feel either of those things, but some clearly do and I can understand why.

I'm glad you don't! And like you, I completely understand why.

Here's where I'm taking it a step further. I'm using my smarts to *reject* the false feeling of being 'manipulated' or 'exploited' or 'deceived' - these are all pure constructs of my *own* creation. There is zero proof that Bungie is actually doing ANY of the above.

This is a new thing - this rejecting thing - I think for many folks here and elsewhere to embrace. For too long we have had an environment where *any* misstep is met with derision, and anger, and the pitchforks come out. ALL I'm asking for is a reasonable attempt to curb those initial impulses. To sit back and wonder - wait, why am I getting so upset? Does my anger, and jumping on the bandwagon with fellow upset gamers, actually help? What is actually going on here?

As others have pointed out, the bonus in-game items included with the new legendary edition are not the kinds of exclusive content that will get newcomers excited. People who don't already play Destiny are not likely to care about new dance moves, exotic class items, or the physical goodies in the box. The people who will care are the ones who already own the game.

I think this is supposition. I think they are following an established precedent of game-of-the-year collections. And I can easily envision folks that were on the fence, or thought Destiny was a crappy game due to the bad press it initially got, that they would love a package where they got lots of new goodies and loot to entice them to purchase the game.

I'm about as dispassionate about this as I could be, but something about this still feels off.

All that said, I do firmly believe that it is too early to freak out about anything. Deej has said that he'll address this issue in the next update. I think we need to wait until we have the whole picture before we decide how we feel.

I'm with you! What I would add though is that *now* I'm hearing folks say "Oh look, Bungie is doing damage control and they're going to announce stuff to placate us all that are upset!" And this again feels like a misstep in seeing cause-and-effect. When TTK was announced, it was said that there was MORE TO COME.

Again, I can understand thinking "oh, that sucks" what I can't understand is the "let's turn this up to 11" outrage.

I don't want to be associated with a bunch of needy whiners as the core audience. It's embarrassing.

- M

For what it's worth, I do think the discussion here is generally a lot more level headed than most other places, even if you feel the specific complaints are trivial. Every now and then I get flashbacks to my Waypoint moderator days (shudders)... we have it GOOD here :)

I get it, but I still feel there is a miasma here that needs addressing.

Let me also take this moment to speak directly to you CL, a few days past you started a discussion that got me rolling in comments with others, and things got all heated and there was back and forth, babies were made, babies were aborted, etc. etc. And Kermit near the end said something like "it's too bad all this had to happen on CL's OP, he's the nicest of guys and doesn't deserve that." I had meant to write, no Kermit, this is EXACTLY why CL's a perfect candidate for these discussions - because a) you're a bonafide Canadian, with your nice laid back attitude - I feel no matter how barbed the words are, they just slide right off of you, and so that means all that anger BS can be set aside and we can discuss the meat of the matter and b) you are a good representative of those people I rail against - but in the sense that you are *just* on the periphery - you are a true addict to the game, many of your posts just make me shake my head, but it's exactly because you are the anti-Cody with the surface-level self-generating loathing against the ills against 'gamer nirvana' and fake persona crap, that actually makes you accessible and my wanting to engage with you. You represent, to me, the insidiousness of how this game has sucked many of us fine people down the rabbit-hole. And with many paragraphs of discourse, excel spreadsheets, and talking over tea and biscuits, the addiction buried underneath is still there.. lurking and convincing some of us that it's perfectly reasonable to talk about moving 3 characters through nightfalls and weeklies, and weighing the minutiae of which gun perk gives us that .005% advantage (listen, Thorn is the answer - it will always be the answer) and therefore every other gun is a joke, worthy of sharding, etc.

In other words, you are my best chance of a breakthrough with the others. So for that I thank you, and hope to see you at PAX in a few months.

- M

I don't entirely disagree.

This fills me with hope actually. I'm not being facetious.

If you boil it down to "We want our dances" it IS pretty silly. But your attitude stinks. The guy is a "kid" and not a journalist why? Because he's asking questions a lot of people want to know?

Because Luke gave him his chance to reconsider his line of questioning but said journalist was going to stick to his faulty-guns and continue to come off like a whiner.

Or is it his "bias" as a fan that makes his questions somehow less acceptable?

If you come off like some random person posting in a Q&A with the devs, his whole article looks like an attempt to just stir the pot and champion the disgruntled.

(Beaides which it's not like he didn't disclose it).

So? That doesn't excuse him. It actually put into focus that all we saw there was a dev that likes to shoot his mouth off and talk honestly against an agitated journalist that was coming at Luke w/ an agenda. That's punditry, *not* journalism.

You're right in that he came at the interview from a specific angle, but the questions were no less valid, and at no point was he especially "unprofessional" - He did his job, asked some questions and got some answers.

The 'job' here is basically a transcript of a rough exchange w/ a dev. Wouldn't a *real* good job be that he then researched the other side of it? "Eurogamer: Fair and Balanced."

What he did do is not sit and mindlessly ask the Press Release questions then come back to us with "Here is a Press Release I reworded a bit", which I appreciate. If I want a press release I'll read it from the source. Journalism is about asking questions and he did a great job doing that. Both sides said their piece with all biases disclosed and the reader can decide. Journalism.

It is great the he went off script, kudos to that, but that doesn't excuse the end result. And you're admitting now this wasn't journalism, but a debate between a fan and a dev? ("Both sides said their piece") So, no, not journalism.

My disclosure: Im buying the thing because I like Collector's Editions. Bungie have made their position clear so I've made a decision.

But I feel that it's a position they've taken solely because they know they can get away with it.

Ah, NOW we're getting to that glorious of honeypots: the "they're screwing us ON PURPOSE" canard. So firmly based on truisms and facts. Evidence abounds that Bungie sat in a room and planned this whole 'How can we give a middle finger to our fans that have played for the past year?"

They've even mentioned that the CE stuff is there to bait existing players into rebuying content.

Really? They phrased it exactly that way? Really?

Sadly that's the way the industry works - I'll live. But I understand the "outrage" - the industry shouldn't work like that. This thing isn't that bad, but it's an easy example people can get behind.

Now here's MY DISCLOSURE. As of TODAY, RIGHT NOW, I'm only buying the $40 digital download. Because that's all I care about, choose to value as appropriate for my needs. I'm not sweating having any of the extra content, because I was never much of a sucker for those kind of things… I'll be there on the sidelines waiting for all the discussion and youtube videos of folks taking apart the goodies in the CE. And I'll enjoy it all. Thanks very much Bungie.

Almost forgot: I can't stand people who belittle others for their beliefs. Disagree all you want. Explain how wrong they are or why their beliefs are unrealistic/inappropriate/whatever. Don't just reduce them to "kids", "entitled" or "whiners". It does nothing to further discussion, all it does is make people feel shitty, small and/or angry. That's not how intelligent discourse works and it's not good for anyone.

You are doing a good job of getting it. Thanks. I'm not here to just have rational discourse, though my posts are full of just that if you're willing to get beyond where I'm slapping you in the face. But the slapping in the face (or pouring cold water on you) IS my intent here. I'm not pussyfooting around. This forum needs a wakeup call, and I'm feeling like the momentum is building. I hate that this forum is VERY much like all the other forums, b.net included. Maybe it's full of more words, more 'elite college' chin-scratching, etc. but whittled down, the tone is *exactly* the same: Bungie, fix your shit, or I hate you and all you stand for. No matter how many hours of enjoyment I've gotten out of it, you stlll suck balls and I'm done with you. THAT, my friends, is a shitty attitude. Not worthy of my siding up next to you and kissing you on the cheek and saying there, there, I got your back on this. Because I don't.

Every post I read here and elsewhere that says "Bungie is shitting on their hardcore fans." "I'm a first day player, and Bungie is saying Fuck you to me for my dedication." "Bungie should be rewarding me for being so faithful." "It's not the content, it's the principle."

TO ALL OF THOSE, I SAY: No, no, no and double-NO. I'm a first day player, I'm a hardcore fan, I've faithfully played the game. But I reject being lumped into this bitter group. The principle is easy to grasp: Bungie has to make things that are exclusive, as they are selling along several tiers and they different thing to entice those tiers. AND THEY HAVE NOT FINISHED STATING WHAT'S COMING. So what I call "Zero-Day-Outrage" will be mocked by me. Sorry. That's just how it's going to go.

Can you imagine the teams at Bungie that have been working on all this new stuff for the past months (or year) and they wake up to see these posts of folks basically saying how they couldn't care less about all the new content they've created… that no, THEY'RE PISSED because they choose to focus on SOME DANCE MOVES plus other minor things???

Come on, REALLY?

I'll say it again, it's embarrassing. But I also implore you: Do a good job of parsing my words. I'm *not* saying disagreeing with a move a company makes is forbidden! All I'm saying is the level of outrage does *not* match reality. In any other reasonable world, (for instance, MINE) I would say "Oh, that's cool, all that collectors stuff, awesome… aww, look at those dance moves, those new shaders, etc. What? I can't get it but only through the CE? Oh, well that sucks. Anyway, can't wait to play the new stuff!" This folks is considered a reasonable reaction. But if instead we get "WHAT? YOU MEAN I CAN'T GET THAT? WHAT HAS THIS WORLD COME TO? I HAVE BEEN ABUSED AND MY MONEY IS BEING TAKEN AGAINST MY WILL!" Sorry, I firmly reject that worldview.

http://www.usingenglish.com/forum/threads/12654-quot-I-said-my-peace-piece-quot-which-is-it

Where to begin.

I'm sure you'll put in your best effort.

First of all, the 'kid' you're referring to here is named Tom Phillips, a deputy editor for Eurogamer, not some wide eyed college graduate.

Secondly, not being present for the interview it is impossible for you to determine that he was upset and agitated, and I don't think "the kid was about to cry" even merits a response.

Thanks, every now and then I like to put on the hyperbole coat, since it seems so well worn around here on the forum. Trust that I don't do it often. It smells of rancid gamer tears.

Third, saying "fuck this" and doing saying whatever you want would be pretty much the opposite of being professional, so you're working against yourself there if Luke did indeed do that (though I doubt that's what he did since you don't have a direct line into his thoughts).

See, you're reacting against what everyone else decided to do to Luke - to posit his attitude and his thinking and absolutely peg his motivations. But I'm not allowed to do that with the revered Mr. Tom Phillips?

Lastly, whether the interviewer is a fan of the game or not has nothing to do with his line of questioning.

This is too disingenuous to even try to argue with. You're legitimately saying that if this was a *neutral* person the results might not have been different?

You people are just defending him because he is pushing your *own* agenda. He is your agent against the big bad Bungie for their crimes against all faithful Destiny players. The fact that it all turned into one train-wreck with Luke flying his freak flag just belittles the whole exchange. If I was Phillips, I would've stepped back and said to myself - why was I asking this dev/game-designer NON-PR person at Bungie these questions? You know, I'll see what Deej or Urk or heck even Parsons have to say. You don't think if he showed them his exchange w/ Luke that they would've jumped at the chance to present their side of things? Now we're talking journalism, where the whole thing (Luke/DeeJ/Urk/etc) is examined, dissected, and presented to the reader.

He simply asked the questions, and Luke gave the answers. If they elicited an unusual response, then all the better yes?

I guess rubbernecking and staring at car accidents instead of just driving along the highway is all the better, yes?

I know it's a burden to bear, but do your best to allow yourself to be associated with all the needy whiners out there. I know, I know, god it's just so embarrassing to be seen with those people, but you can do it, I believe in you.

Jeeze, I've been dealing w/ the whiners for a good 30 years now. One day they'll learn to leave me alone. But I'll keep at it, no worries bud.

- M

It's also about class items that give exp buffs. That could potentially alter your experience significantly. As for the ps4 exclusivity, I never defended that either and think it's just as shitty.

I can totally understand where they were coming from with the class items. Someone is literally a year behind everyone else, the buff is to get them caught up. Experience buffs now would mean very little, maybe a little help leveling up new gear, but not nearly the advantage it will give specifically to new players.

I have lots of places I cut corners, but the two places I don't are my food and my fun.

+1

Except that I would add toilet paper to your list. The quilted stuff is work the extra few bucks ;-)

...which seems plausible, because marathon was done this way and why not keep that same design philosophy...

I don't doubt the rest of what you said, but Marathon was twenty one years ago. How much direct relevance can it really have to Destiny's structure and programming? If you'd said Halo then sure, but Marathon?

Well, I know nothing about modding Halo. I know some people did it on PC, but I have no idea what the structure was. Marathon, on the other hand, I modded like crazy. I changed the animations, changed the physics, changed the AI... it was all really brilliantly structured so that these changes were easily accomplished and it was easy to save different "packages" of changes to share with friends etc..

Combined with my experience at a couple of different gaming houses and I've observed that, in general, once a dev team lands on a design structure and workflow that is nimble and responsive, they are fairly unlikely to switch to something cumbersome and difficult to change. Since Marathon, way back 20 years ago, was really well organized and easy to modify in almost every way, I find it very unlikely that Bungie would have made any games since then that weren't just as well structured (at least in the developer tools side of things).