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The Fall of Destiny

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Sunday, May 12, 2013, 10:24 (4003 days ago)
edited by Ragashingo, Sunday, May 12, 2013, 10:28

I was thinking of Destiny and its marketing beyond the game. Destiny has had it's Cortana Letters of sorts with the Alpha Lupi thing. So what would be next? A book of course! Do you think Destiny will have its Fall of Reach. Will it have a book that kicks things off and informs us about the world and setting of the game? Should it?

I like The Fall of Reach but I think it sometimes is referenced too heavily in Halo's canon or it plain doesn't fit in any more. Any Destiny book has needs to avoid that.

If we did see a Destiny book what would you want it to be about?

I'd probably like to follow the first wave or Human explorers as they venture out after the fall. See them encounter the various aliens and be forced to form the Guardians.

How about you?

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The Fall of Destiny

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Sunday, May 12, 2013, 12:07 (4003 days ago) @ Ragashingo

IMO, Destiny is the perfect game to have a giant booklet comeback.

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The Fall of Destiny

by Stephen Laughlin ⌂ @, Long Beach, CA, Sunday, May 12, 2013, 21:02 (4002 days ago) @ Ragashingo
edited by Stephen Laughlin, Sunday, May 12, 2013, 21:06

I don't have a lot of time for dime store video game tie-in novels these days. I don't mean to disparage the Halo books--I read them all, FoR more than once, and picked apart the fiction on community forums back in the day--but I hope that Destiny itself can sufficiently speak to the quality of the writing that Bungie is putting into this project.

I feel like this is an area where the Halo games didn't quite excel. Based on the novels, the universe seemed to be richly detailed and built from this huge pool of lore...a big sweeping space-opera with political machinations, ethically gray military projects, AIs that basically go insane after 7 years, characters like Halsey and more that we don't really start to hear about in the games until the latter part of the series. Maybe this is something the novels brought to the table and the games had to play catchup, but I don't think that's the case. I hope to see more of this in depth kind of stuff in the game itself, rather than having to glean it from third-party sources.

That being said, it's probably a safe bet there will be tie-ins. From what little tidbits of story we've got so far, Staten's bit from one of the past updates really sparked my imagination. I could picture a novel being written about the ancient-future history of humanity set prior to the events of Destiny. It kinda reminds me of the stuff about Traxus IV from Marathon.

The City wants us to recover a piece of Charlemagne, one of the great Warminds of the Golden Age—a vast machine intelligence built by the ancient Powers of Mars. The Cabal do everything they can to try and stop our descent, but we keep pushing, rifles cracking and Traveler energy boiling from our fists until the only thing left standing is us, and the only thing left of the Cabal is the loot they hid in Charlemagne’s vault.

Great Warminds of the Golden Age? Ancient Powers of Mars? Fucking sign me up.

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^ Yup

by Beorn @, <End of Failed Timeline>, Sunday, May 12, 2013, 22:46 (4002 days ago) @ Stephen Laughlin

I feel like this is an area where the Halo games didn't quite excel. Based on the novels, the universe seemed to be richly detailed and built from this huge pool of lore...a big sweeping space-opera with political machinations, ethically gray military projects, AIs that basically go insane after 7 years, characters like Halsey and more that we don't really start to hear about in the games until the latter part of the series. Maybe this is something the novels brought to the table and the games had to play catchup, but I don't think that's the case. I hope to see more of this in depth kind of stuff in the game itself, rather than having to glean it from third-party sources.

Exactly. The Halo Universe is just not the same without the books. If you take everything except the games away you're left with a pretty skeletal frame that is missing a fair bit of the magic. I can't count the number of times I had a discussion with my coworkers about some cool element in Halo, only to have them not know what I was talking about because they didn't read the books.

The short version: I really hope Destiny does an exceptional job of transitioning those stories into the game and fleshing out the universe through the course of gameplay. A Destiny-related book would be fun, but I don't think it should carry the weight of the franchise's backbone while the game mostly ignores it.

^ Yup

by GrimBrother One, Monday, May 13, 2013, 08:46 (4002 days ago) @ Beorn

It's a tough call, because while I agree with a fair bit of what you say, there are things that literally just come across much better in a book, and not very well (if at all) in a game. Books and movies have had this similar relationship for decades. Some of the most amazing bits of the Halo universe have come about because of the books, and while I would love for more to be incorporated and revealed in the games themselves, I wouldn't want to just forgo the excellent book experience and simply be left without those moments just because they don't translate well into the game medium. It's certainly a delicate balance, and I actually think that the Halo series - for all our flak - overall does an excellent job; certainly way better than many other franchises do with the relationship between their various media forms (Star Wars for example).

I would love if Destiny also incorporated some of the best elements of the new trans-media movement, as for me, any new way to experience more of the story is a good thing, provided that the source material itself is giving you a great foundation to work from.

Grim

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^ Yup

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, May 13, 2013, 09:59 (4002 days ago) @ GrimBrother One

I confess that I haven't read them all. I'll also confess that I've yet to have a truly excellent experience with a Halo novel. Fall of Reach was the best one I've read, but I don't get comparing Nyland to truly great writers. Cryptum took me years to finish (literally) because I was bored to death by it. Maybe I have different expectations for books. I don't know.

It requires careful attention (especially with Halo 2), but I think you can get enough information out of the Bungie games to understand what is going on and why. (ODST rocked!) Also, there's a lot to be said to not knowing. The forerunners were much more interesting to me before the auxiliary material started exploring them. Now I guess the Precursors are supposed to fill that void of mystery, but that leaves me feeling a bit like the mark in a game of three-card Monte.

I hope that years from now, before the last Destiny game ships, there is still imaginative space left in which to speculate, mysteries to uncover, and new worlds to explore.

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^ Yup

by TTL Demag0gue ⌂ @, Within the shadow of the Traveler, Monday, May 13, 2013, 11:30 (4002 days ago) @ Kermit

The forerunners were much more interesting to me before the auxiliary material started exploring them. Now I guess the Precursors are supposed to fill that void of mystery, but that leaves me feeling a bit like the mark in a game of three-card Monte.

I enjoyed the fiction behind the Forerunners, but I admit that the conclusion of Silentium was... disappointing and unsatisfying in many ways. Greg Bear's trilogy took away much of the awe and wonder of both the Forerunners and the Precursors for me. (This is through no fault of Mr. Bear, of course, who is an excellent and fine writer. It's more of a commentary on the quality of the source material.)

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Apologies for the wall of text

by Beorn @, <End of Failed Timeline>, Monday, May 13, 2013, 10:50 (4002 days ago) @ GrimBrother One

It's a tough call, because while I agree with a fair bit of what you say, there are things that literally just come across much better in a book, and not very well (if at all) in a game. Books and movies have had this similar relationship for decades. Some of the most amazing bits of the Halo universe have come about because of the books, and while I would love for more to be incorporated and revealed in the games themselves, I wouldn't want to just forgo the excellent book experience and simply be left without those moments just because they don't translate well into the game medium. It's certainly a delicate balance, and I actually think that the Halo series - for all our flak - overall does an excellent job; certainly way better than many other franchises do with the relationship between their various media forms (Star Wars for example).

You make a very good point about the balance between the different mediums. Books really can tell a more expansive story, and I think the first couple of Halo books did a nice job of exploring side stories and character background in an enjoyable format while avoiding direct conflict with the games. I really enjoyed those books and they helped me form a more complete picture of the universe and emotional connection to the characters. The books worked with and expanded upon the story rather than working against what we already knew.

I think the turning point for many of us was when the scope of the games and books grew to the point where they began to cross over and collide, sometimes with dramatic results. As a fan, I was torn about these conflicts; the effort and canonical sacrifices required to reconcile those differences ended up souring the greater universe a bit.

Halo 4 pushed that even further when the books carried the entire weight of the story and the game was just left flapping in the wind. I've been a Halo fan since the day the Cortana letters hit the Marathon Story Page and I really think I would have been completely lost in Halo 4 if I hadn't read Cryptum and Primordium first. Silentium—released half a year after the game—is required to really get a grasp on what the character motivations are through the course of Halo 4, and even then the exposition relating to these motivations is tenuous at best (I still have a few chapters to go, but it seems that the real heart of our characters isn't revealed until the last quarter of the book). Compounded with Greg Bear's difficult and meandering storytelling, these three books are a slog. I'm not really enjoying them, and I'm only continuing to read them because I feel like I'll be missing a big chunk of the picture without them.

Maybe we can pin these changes (?errors) on Microsoft's influence, maybe not. Bungie is far too tactful to ever come out and say something like that directly, but we'll find out the truth in how they handle the Destiny IP. The Activision announcement ViDoc made a fairly strong point that ownership and freedom for Bungie was a large part of their deal, so going forward there will be nobody else to point a finger at. My gut feeling, though, is that Bungie is going to do right by the players, and if that means books are in order then I think they'll be done right (i.e., The Fall of Reach style).

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Agreed

by TTL Demag0gue ⌂ @, Within the shadow of the Traveler, Monday, May 13, 2013, 11:25 (4002 days ago) @ Beorn

You hit a lot of the same points I was going to make. I was pretty confused when I played through Halo 4 the first time because I felt like I'd missed a significant chunk of story. I'd only read Cryptum at this point, so I wasn't completely in the dark, but much of the background behind the game didn't come completely into focus until I finished The Thursday War just the other day. In this respect, I think 343i dropped by ball on the fiction of this universe. Halo 4 feels a bit like they jumped the gun, in some ways, though the novels can also be construed as game spoilers that they wouldn't have wanted made public until after the game's launch.

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Agreed

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Monday, May 13, 2013, 11:49 (4002 days ago) @ TTL Demag0gue

I agree with you guys almost completely. I found the mystery in the earlier books and games to be awesome and as soon as I found out about the Precursors I thought it was something of a cop out.

Now a little bit off topic, one thing I think I miss in Halo 4 that was present in the Bungie games was the humor. Halo 4 strikes a much more serious tone than the other games in my opinion. Bungie's writing was good at making jokes during a serious moment without taking away from the drama, and it is definitely something I think is lacking in Halo 4.

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Agreed

by Malagate @, Sea of Tranquility, Monday, May 13, 2013, 14:38 (4002 days ago) @ Xenos

I agree with you guys almost completely. I found the mystery in the earlier books and games to be awesome and as soon as I found out about the Precursors I thought it was something of a cop out.

Now a little bit off topic, one thing I think I miss in Halo 4 that was present in the Bungie games was the humor. Halo 4 strikes a much more serious tone than the other games in my opinion. Bungie's writing was good at making jokes during a serious moment without taking away from the drama, and it is definitely something I think is lacking in Halo 4.

Now I feel even more justified in not keeping up with the Halo novels. Really a shame, though. I think,--from a technological standpoint--a work of art (or a particular creative vision) that is crafted and then translated into another medium tends to lose fidelity the most when the medium is more primitive. What it gains in speed of delivery, pretty visuals, and interactivity tends to be the trade-off in the other direction. ILB is one of the very few cases I can think of where this isn't true.

In any case, when the creative engine that births an IP moves on to other things, the subsequent quality of the experience invariably suffers, in my experience. H4 was no exception.

~M

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Agreed

by TTL Demag0gue ⌂ @, Within the shadow of the Traveler, Monday, May 13, 2013, 14:52 (4002 days ago) @ Malagate

Now I feel even more justified in not keeping up with the Halo novels.

Sadly(?), I'm hooked on the novels for the foreseeable future. Whatever gaffs 343i has made in the handling of the story bible, the writers they've selected to continue to novelizations are first-rate. I've enjoyed the storytelling, and I'm curious to see what they do with the fiction from here, however disappointing the outcome may be. Basically, I'm willing to follow the fiction until doing so becomes intolerable.

In any case, when the creative engine that births an IP moves on to other things, the subsequent quality of the experience invariably suffers, in my experience. H4 was no exception.

In my opinion the thing that 343i lacks that Bungie has in spades is vision. 343i seems more focused on making a game, where Bungie has always been focused first on making a universe. It's something that I hope 343i is able to overcome before they launch Halo 5, but I harbor no illusions that they actually will.

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Agreed

by Malagate @, Sea of Tranquility, Monday, May 13, 2013, 15:15 (4002 days ago) @ TTL Demag0gue

Now I feel even more justified in not keeping up with the Halo novels.


Sadly(?), I'm hooked on the novels for the foreseeable future. Whatever gaffs 343i has made in the handling of the story bible, the writers they've selected to continue to novelizations are first-rate. I've enjoyed the storytelling, and I'm curious to see what they do with the fiction from here, however disappointing the outcome may be. Basically, I'm willing to follow the fiction until doing so becomes intolerable.

Yeah, and some of those writers I'm familiar with. I love Traviss' Wess'Har Wars, and a couple other things she's done. But she's written Star Wars, Gears of War, and now Halo books. Granted, I got into Nylund because of Reach (and I loved it because it was Halo), but I enjoyed the Signal to Noise books more as original works. Call me a snob, but I usually like an artist's original work over any IP-oriented stuff they do. MicroSoft certainly have got talent in the stable as far as writers, but there's something missing for me.


In my opinion the thing that 343i lacks that Bungie has in spades is vision. 343i seems more focused on making a game, where Bungie has always been focused first on making a universe. It's something that I hope 343i is able to overcome before they launch Halo 5, but I harbor no illusions that they actually will.

And there we have it. I agree.

~M

The Fall of Destiny

by yakaman, Monday, May 13, 2013, 06:40 (4002 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I was thinking of Destiny and its marketing beyond the game. Destiny has had it's Cortana Letters of sorts with the Alpha Lupi thing. So what would be next? A book of course! Do you think Destiny will have its Fall of Reach. Will it have a book that kicks things off and informs us about the world and setting of the game? Should it?

I like The Fall of Reach but I think it sometimes is referenced too heavily in Halo's canon or it plain doesn't fit in any more. Any Destiny book has needs to avoid that.

If we did see a Destiny book what would you want it to be about?

I'd probably like to follow the first wave or Human explorers as they venture out after the fall. See them encounter the various aliens and be forced to form the Guardians.

How about you?

Bungie has said many times that we are the story. They've been purposefully vague on a lot of the details. I believe there will be little to no story activity outside actual game-play, even though "game-play" may cover a lot of ground.

If there are story elements or historical events to be revealed, I believe it'll be through the "softer" game portals (i.e. mobile apps) and not "old media" like books. I mean, how much fun was it to unlock the Destiny reveal riddles? How cool to learn back story through web events like I Love Bees or similar? Bungie's theme has been to build community, and solving story events together is a great way to get people to connect.

I realize tie-ins are a potential cash cow, but I don't think Bungie much cares.

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No main characters from the games

by RC ⌂, UK, Monday, May 13, 2013, 11:53 (4002 days ago) @ Ragashingo

Bungie have said repeatedly that you are the main character and have emphasised the customisation of the character and gear.

To that end, I absolutely would NOT want any characters in the books to be main characters in the game. I don't want inside access to huge galaxy-changing events and world-shapers - it takes away the mystery. I don't want my character meeting people in the game for the first time and being all 'who are you?' meanwhile I as a player know that character intimately from a book - that's a massive disconnect.

There is no point following a Guardian in a book since the player IS a Guardian in the game - and that sets up a hero outside of themselves. Anything a Guardian character might do in a book, it would be better to experience that in the game.

Rather, I would prefer stories that explore the lives and struggles that we otherwise wouldn't see in the game. It doesn't have to be grandiose - just engaging. Give us characters that help reinforce the idea that the last city is worth protecting.

Does that make sense to anyone?

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Absolutely

by Beorn @, <End of Failed Timeline>, Monday, May 13, 2013, 12:22 (4002 days ago) @ RC

Rather, I would prefer stories that explore the lives and struggles that we otherwise wouldn't see in the game. It doesn't have to be grandiose - just engaging. Give us characters that help reinforce the idea that the last city is worth protecting.

Does that make sense to anyone?

I think many of us are on the same page here. Sadie's Story and the I Love Bees drama were great examples of this.

Also agree

by GrimBrother One, Tuesday, May 14, 2013, 10:07 (4001 days ago) @ Beorn

I feel the very same way about the Mass Effect universe. Stay. Away. From. Shepard. She should be mine and mine only, and should only be referenced in the most ambiguous of ways. To BioWare's credit, they've actually done a pretty darn good job of cleverly keeping Shepard's role out of all their EU material, and I love it that way. I'm worried about the ME movie because I do NOT want them to involved Shepard, but it's hard to imagine that they would want to stray too far away from that for the movie-going audience. Guess we'll see.

But yeah, I definitely hope that we see more surrounding events and characters, rather than things that would have a completely direct impact on the Guardian we play.

And in talking more about the overall subject at hand, maybe even more than novels, I wouldn't mind seeing a web-series done in-engine (or full CG) that continues to build upon what is happening in the Destiny universe. Doing it like that could also help it feel even more directly connected to the events of the game itself regarding visual style consistency, etc.

Grim

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Also agree

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Tuesday, May 14, 2013, 10:32 (4001 days ago) @ GrimBrother One

And in talking more about the overall subject at hand, maybe even more than novels, I wouldn't mind seeing a web-series done in-engine (or full CG) that continues to build upon what is happening in the Destiny universe. Doing it like that could also help it feel even more directly connected to the events of the game itself regarding visual style consistency, etc.

That would actually be pretty awesome if they did that as the promotional media leading up to Destiny. Since we are obviously the heroes, why not make a trailer that shows a story we won't see in the game?

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The Fall of Destiny

by narcogen ⌂ @, Andover, Massachusetts, Thursday, May 16, 2013, 00:50 (3999 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I think if there's a lesson to be learned from the reception of Halo: Reach is that you can't be sure that when you trot out some details that used to be just for background from your franchise bible and flesh it out into a fully-fledged work, you can't tell when some of those decisions may come back to bite you in the posterior when you're trying to make a game later on.

There are, of course, two ways of dealing with that.

One is to forget about ancillary materials, and let the games speak for themselves.

Another is to resist the urge to make prequels, or to cover portions of your backstory in a game that have already been detailed in a supplemental work.

Of course, actualizing either of these require that you own and control your own IP.

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