Xbone and ownership

by Oholiab @, Monday, June 10, 2013, 21:25 (3975 days ago)

Seeing a lot of chatter on here about ownership, used games, and Microsoft. Since I missed the Xbox conference - and my time is limited - can someone give me a quick synopsis? I buy a lot of used games, so all the talk has me concerned... Thanks!

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Xbone and ownership

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, June 10, 2013, 21:46 (3975 days ago) @ Oholiab

Seeing a lot of chatter on here about ownership, used games, and Microsoft. Since I missed the Xbox conference - and my time is limited - can someone give me a quick synopsis? I buy a lot of used games, so all the talk has me concerned... Thanks!

Here's the deal:

You can buy and sell used games from specific participating retailers, and that is only if the publisher does not prohibit used sales. A publisher can decide to disallow used games, in which case you can't do it anywhere.

If you want to sell to or give a game to a friend, they have to be on your friends list for 30 days, and the transfer is final. They can't then sell or give it to someone else.

You cannot rent games anymore either.

But let's be honest, who here buys games from their friends? It's rare. The vast majority of used game sales are either at retail stores or ebay. Well, ebay is out of the question now, since you'd have to friend the person then undergo the 30 day waiting period. We're buying a game, not a goddamn gun.

So the only realistic scenario is buying from a participating retailer. I have no idea what the terms of participation are, but they have to be something.

Then at Sony's presentation, they said in completely clear terms that you can do whatever you want with your game disc. Lend it, sell it, rent it, etc, and that the PS4 does not need to be connected or check in every 24 hrs to function.

Cue standing ovation and the nail in the coffin. It's clear people care about this stuff.

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Sony drives the nail in a little farther

by Mr Daax ⌂ @, aka: SSG Daax, Monday, June 10, 2013, 22:00 (3975 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Sony drives the nail in a little farther

by Oholiab @, Monday, June 10, 2013, 22:02 (3975 days ago) @ Mr Daax

HA! +1 for Sony's sense of humor.

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Ha! *NM*

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Monday, June 10, 2013, 22:03 (3975 days ago) @ Mr Daax

The fine print indeed makes it clear that digital downloads are different, but then they've always been different, and is no biggy to me.

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They've driven that nail all the way to China

by Grizzlei ⌂ @, Pacific Cloud Zone, Earth, Monday, June 10, 2013, 22:03 (3975 days ago) @ Mr Daax
edited by Grizzlei, Monday, June 10, 2013, 22:25

...where they've surely just received an order for many thousands more PlayStation 4 consoles.

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Shots fired!

by uberfoop @, Seattle-ish, Monday, June 10, 2013, 22:09 (3975 days ago) @ Mr Daax

- No text -

Sony Wins. FATALITY!

by Avateur @, Monday, June 10, 2013, 22:10 (3975 days ago) @ Mr Daax

- No text -

Sony drives the nail in a little farther

by Beckx, Tuesday, June 11, 2013, 08:22 (3975 days ago) @ Mr Daax

Shots fired all night long.

$399
No online check-ins
No DRM
Region free
User upgradeable hard drives
Drive Club free on launch of PS4 for PS+ users

Bummer that they are imposing a multiplayer paywall but at least it covers the console regardless of who's using it.

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Sony drives the nail in a little farther

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Tuesday, June 11, 2013, 08:36 (3975 days ago) @ Beckx

Drive Club free on launch of PS4 for PS+ users

What?!

Sony drives the nail in a little farther

by Beckx, Tuesday, June 11, 2013, 08:42 (3975 days ago) @ ZackDark

Was in the conference last night. They announced a few of the free PS+ games, Drive Club at launch, Don't Starve (which is amazing, but I already have it on PC) later, maybe another.

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As I said to Bry, aggressive marketing is aggressive

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Tuesday, June 11, 2013, 09:04 (3975 days ago) @ Beckx

- No text -

Sony drives the nail in a little farther

by NsU Soldier @, Washington, Tuesday, June 11, 2013, 11:35 (3975 days ago) @ Beckx

Shots fired all night long.

$399
No online check-ins
No DRM
Region free
User upgradeable hard drives
Drive Club free on launch of PS4 for PS+ users

Bummer that they are imposing a multiplayer paywall but at least it covers the console regardless of who's using it.

It does stink that they are going to charge for multiplayer now, but you don't have to have a PS+ account to stream Netflix, Hulu or other such services which is nice. And (for now) it'll still be cheaper than Xbox Live, so there's that too.

Oh!

And no creepy mandatory Kinect to collect "market research" data on you!

A shame that neither have any backwards compatibility though...

Sony drives the nail in a little farther

by Beckx, Tuesday, June 11, 2013, 11:50 (3975 days ago) @ NsU Soldier
edited by Beckx, Tuesday, June 11, 2013, 12:03

Shots fired all night long.

$399
No online check-ins
No DRM
Region free
User upgradeable hard drives
Drive Club free on launch of PS4 for PS+ users

Bummer that they are imposing a multiplayer paywall but at least it covers the console regardless of who's using it.


It does stink that they are going to charge for multiplayer now, but you don't have to have a PS+ account to stream Netflix, Hulu or other such services which is nice. And (for now) it'll still be cheaper than Xbox Live, so there's that too.

Oh!

And no creepy mandatory Kinect to collect "market research" data on you!

A shame that neither have any backwards compatibility though...

Yeah. They slipped that paywall in there - it's not all roses. But at least they later said that all accounts on the console get access to PS+ features. And on the DRM front they aren't prohibiting publishers from implementing their own DRM solutions [EDIT: to block online play only] (so, for example, Destiny could ship with a one-time use account code). But probably not reasonable to expect that.

No mandatory camera is a big deal. I still can't believe that MS's confirmation of a mandatory camera & online check in came out on the same day as the PRISM disclosure.

Sony drives the nail in a little farther

by NsU Soldier @, Washington, Tuesday, June 11, 2013, 11:55 (3975 days ago) @ Beckx

No mandatory camera is a big deal. I still can't believe that MS's confirmation of a mandatory camera & online check in came out on the same day as the PRISM disclosure.

And then, of course, it could also do this.

Sony drives the nail in a little farther

by Beckx, Tuesday, June 11, 2013, 12:02 (3975 days ago) @ NsU Soldier

[image]

Sony drives the nail in a little farther

by NsU Soldier @, Washington, Tuesday, June 11, 2013, 12:06 (3975 days ago) @ Beckx

[image]

Okay, NOW I'm intrigued! :D

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Sony drives the nail in a little farther

by SonofMacPhisto @, Tuesday, June 11, 2013, 15:15 (3975 days ago) @ NsU Soldier

I see a dirty puuunnnnnnnnnnn.

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Not so fast

by Schooly D, TSD Gaming Condo, TX, Monday, June 10, 2013, 22:38 (3975 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Cue standing ovation and the nail in the coffin. It's clear people care about this stuff.

If by "nail in the coffin" you mean "nail in the coffin for me," sure. For the rest of the population, it's too early to say.

It is clear that people care about this stuff. It's not clear how many they are, or what percentage of them were in that auditorium tonight. It's very possible that Microsoft's focus testing on these issues has told them correctly that there are enough people who don't or won't care out there to make a viable market (when factoring in the allure of such policies to publishers).

The book on this is far from closed. Honestly, I think the price difference is much more likely to influence people than policies re: used and loaned games. The hooting and hollering from the gamenista, while it brought me great joy, might end up being a loud bunch of nothing.

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But

by RaichuKFM @, Northeastern Ohio, Monday, June 10, 2013, 22:46 (3975 days ago) @ Schooly D

It could be a loud bunch of entertaining nothing, if we did it right.

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Not so fast

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, June 10, 2013, 22:47 (3975 days ago) @ Schooly D

The book on this is far from closed. Honestly, I think the price difference is much more likely to influence people than policies re: used and loaned games. The hooting and hollering from the gamenista, while it brought me great joy, might end up being a loud bunch of nothing.

You know, you are right. If Snakes on a Plane taught me anything, it's that the internet and the blogosphere are not nearly as important as they think they are…

Xbone and ownership

by Kalamari @, Waiting for Ghorn, FB, and BH, Tuesday, June 11, 2013, 09:20 (3975 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I think the applause was genuine too. I don't think Sony had a cheer section for their presentation.

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Xbone and ownership

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Monday, June 10, 2013, 21:52 (3975 days ago) @ Oholiab
edited by Ragashingo, Monday, June 10, 2013, 21:57

- As it stands now the Xbone treats games you buy as disks and games you buy straight as digital downloads exactly the same. Both need to be installed on your Xbone, buying a disc at a store will just let you install faster.

- Microsoft is giving you a lot of new and decent things you can do with your game, no matter how you bought them. The big two are you can play any game you own on any Xbone as long as you sign in on it. You'd have to redownlaod the game if you didn't bring your disk (or never had one because you bought it straight digital) but thats an improvement from forgetting to bring a disk and not being able to play. You can also let 10 of your friends play any game you own as long as you aren't playing it at the same time. Despite everything else, these are cool things.

- Unfortunately, Microsoft is also putting on new restrictions. If I understand it right you can sell a game only once. This will cut into the used game market. Worse to sell a game you can't just take a $20 from your friend and give him the disk, you have to sell games through a reseller that has access to Microsoft's used game database. Worse still, Microsoft has allowed developers to charge users an additional activation fee on top of whatever the reseller prices a game as. This lets the reseller get a cut of the action where before they got nothing out of the used games market. Developers don't have to charge this fee however.

- To make all this work, tracking which games you own, tracking which games which Xbone can currently play, tracking which games your friends have access to, and tracking which games are being resold, Microsoft requires your Xbone to check in once a day or else it will not play any games, disk or no disk, period. And if you or your friend are playing a game on an Xbone you don't own the Xbone must check in once an hour or else it disallows the playing of games a friend owns.

All in all if you have a good connection these pluses and minuses are, in my opinion, mostly a wash. You get new privileges in exchange for new restrictions. However the Xbone doesn't exist in a vacuum. Things like LAN parties, or visiting a friend for a weekend might be made more difficult if you can't connect each Xbone to the internet once a hour / day. Microsoft is trying to vastly limit and crush the game reselling market. And to make matters worse, their main rival Sony has now pubically stated that they will have none of these restrictions. A PS4 does not stop working if it doesn't check in. PS4 disk based games (presumably not games you get straight online) can be bought and sold the same as always with no one taking a cut or limiting the number or times a game can be sold. And to top it off the PS4 will start out $100 cheaper than the Xbone…

* All information is to the best of my knowledge. Errors may have been made… though I don't think so. :)

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Xbone and ownership

by Jillybean, Tuesday, June 11, 2013, 01:08 (3975 days ago) @ Ragashingo

- To make all this work, tracking which games you own, tracking which games which Xbone can currently play, tracking which games your friends have access to, and tracking which games are being resold, Microsoft requires your Xbone to check in once a day or else it will not play any games, disk or no disk, period. And if you or your friend are playing a game on an Xbone you don't own the Xbone must check in once an hour or else it disallows the playing of games a friend owns.


Kind of random but I had someone trying to sell me a dongle from my mobile provider yesterday - she said "but what if your broadband goes down for a few days and no one can repair it?"

I didn't ask her how much data an XBone would use, poor mite.

Xbone and ownership

by Oholiab @, Monday, June 10, 2013, 22:00 (3975 days ago) @ Oholiab

Thank you both for taking the time to respond so thoroughly. With all that tracking, it sounds like Microsoft designed the new Xbone with the help of the NSA...

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Xbone and ownership

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Monday, June 10, 2013, 22:05 (3975 days ago) @ Oholiab

Thank you both for taking the time to respond so thoroughly. With all that tracking, it sounds like Microsoft designed the new Xbone with the help of the NSA...

Also of note, the Xbone comes with a combination high resolution camera, highly accurate infrared camera, and an array of microphones that must be plugged in for the Xbone to function. ;)

Xbone and ownership

by Reconcilliation @, Imagination Station, Tuesday, June 11, 2013, 01:39 (3975 days ago) @ Oholiab

Thank you both for taking the time to respond so thoroughly. With all that tracking, it sounds like Microsoft designed the new Xbone with the help of the NSA...

I really, honestly, would not be surprised. The thing is basically designed from the ground up to be a surveillance device in your home.

The NSA has direct access to Microsoft servers, we know this from the recent PRISM leaks by Edward Snowden (who now has, unfortunately, gone missing from his hotel room in Hong Kong).

Considering the always online internet connection, the design of the Kinect and the spying and surveillance by the NSA on American and other citizens, plus their direct access to Microsoft servers? If they hadn't yet planned on the home surveillence using the devices, it would only have been a matter of time.

After all...


The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

If they're already breaking this law, why not go all the way with it?

Xbone and ownership

by electricpirate @, Tuesday, June 11, 2013, 08:35 (3975 days ago) @ Oholiab

I actually question whether Ownership is the best model for video games, but that's a lengthy discussion where I haven't gotten all my thoughts straight yet. Either way, the xbone is mostly just a mockery of the current system, with all the downsides of ownership (high cost of entrance, reliance on first 2 months of sales, reliance on retail), with none of the upsides (owner control of media, lending, sharing, etc) as far as I can see.

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Xbone and ownership

by RC ⌂, UK, Tuesday, June 11, 2013, 12:31 (3975 days ago) @ electricpirate

I actually question whether Ownership is the best model for video games, but that's a

The best model is always a mixed approach. What's that adage about eggs and baskets?

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A point everyone seems to ignore

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Tuesday, June 11, 2013, 12:31 (3975 days ago) @ Oholiab

Now I am pretty upset about the XBone also, so this is not a defense, merely a call for some reason in the gaming community. Everyone seems to have missed (or ignored) the fact that all games are digital on the XBone. Buying a game disk is like buying a PC game from Amazon nowadays. You at most get a disk in the mail, install it, and activated it in Steam for a large percentage of games, or in Origin for a smaller percentage. Whether this is preferable or not should apparently be the issue we get upset about if we're upset. If this was not the case there would be no reason we can't sell our games. I personally very much like the idea of being able to have a digital copy of the game, but I'd also like to be able to make the choice. For example, with a game like Destiny I would love to be able to download it and have it forever. But for a more single player oriented game I don't think I'd replay I would prefer to buy a physical copy and then give it to a friend or sell it to Gamestop or Amazon. I think that's the distinction they SHOULD have made. With digital copies available day one like they will be plenty of people would have bought the digital copies anyway since it's more convenient then going to a store, but they wouldn't have all this trouble with used games.

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A point everyone seems to ignore

by RC ⌂, UK, Tuesday, June 11, 2013, 12:35 (3975 days ago) @ Xenos

Now I am pretty upset about the XBone also, so this is not a defense, merely a call for some reason in the gaming community. Everyone seems to have missed (or ignored) the fact that all games are digital on the XBone. Buying a game disk is like buying a PC game from Amazon nowadays. You at most get a disk in the mail, install it, and activated it in Steam for a large percentage of games, or in Origin for a smaller percentage.

Yeah, and all that hoop-jumping is what turned a lot of people AWAY from PC games. Consoles offered 'put it in and play, no questions asked' - which people liked.

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A point everyone seems to ignore

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Tuesday, June 11, 2013, 12:36 (3975 days ago) @ RC

Now I am pretty upset about the XBone also, so this is not a defense, merely a call for some reason in the gaming community. Everyone seems to have missed (or ignored) the fact that all games are digital on the XBone. Buying a game disk is like buying a PC game from Amazon nowadays. You at most get a disk in the mail, install it, and activated it in Steam for a large percentage of games, or in Origin for a smaller percentage.


Yeah, and all that hoop-jumping is what turned a lot of people AWAY from PC games. Consoles offered 'put it in and play, no questions asked' - which people liked.

Which is why I like the solution I gave instead of having to figure out how to resolve the two just make them separate ways to get the game. Also, that's why most people just download the games on PC now instead of purchasing a disk, it's a coaster after you install it.

A point everyone seems to ignore

by Beckx, Tuesday, June 11, 2013, 13:23 (3975 days ago) @ Xenos

People download the games now because Steam proved they could offer an ecosystem where games are cheaper and can be played offline indefinitely. Some property rights given up in return for other benefits.

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