I haven't seen anyone mention the reveal of locked loadouts.

On one hand, I've always thought going in with weapons you can't switch would make for a better team experience, with having to co-ordinate and plan with your teammates so that overall you go in with the right guns for every part of the activity. It would also present you with decisions to make with your own weapon usage. Do I do a jack of all trades loadout, or do I specialize, having a really good arsenal in part B, but have it be weaker in part A?

Practically though… I think it would kill experimentation and improvisation. Having to restart the activity just to try different approaches would kind of be a drag. Also, if say, the raid had locked loadouts, a simple return to orbit and reloading of the checkpoint could thwart that…

In something like trials, being able to switch weapons to adapt to an opponent's strategy is something I wouldn't want to give up. It would make play boring.

I think a better compromise would be fewer weapon reserve slots on the characters. You can have TEN of each type of weapon on your person… maybe it should be three.

I just can't see which activities would actually benefit from a locked loadout.

You literally replied to the first mention of it.

That said, I'm unsure about it. As you pointed out, a return to orbit and checkpoint reload might be a work around, which will be almost unbearably annoying for everyone else in the fire team.

I'm open to the possibility though. In theory I like it. Being prepared for every situation is boring. I could see limiting weapon slots as a solution.

The 2 weapon limit in Halo was mentioned in that thread, but it doesn't really work without being able to pick up new weapons on the map.

You literally replied to the first mention of it.

Also, if say, the raid had locked loadouts, a simple return to orbit and reloading of the checkpoint could thwart that…

They’ll never be able to completely prevent you from doing that (you can always switch characters/online accounts/platforms!) but they could do some things to make it more natural to have a locked loadout. For instance:

• What if at some point during an activity a special buff was applied to your current weapons such that swapping them would hamper your progress.
  
• What if instead of locking your load out for an entire activity, it was merely frozen while you were in a Darkness Zone?
  
• What if this applied to things like Public Events. They can come and go quickly enough that it might make a ton more sense to fight with what you have instead of trying to retreat to a different area, swap weapons, and come back before the event ends. (This would be even more true if you couldn’t spawn a Sparrow while in a Darkness Zone!)
  
• What if checkpoints on high level activities like Nightfalls and Raids remembered both how far you progressed and your load out?!

I just can't see which activities would actually benefit from a locked loadout.

It just another way to provide additional challenges. Personally, I enjoy things that prevent Fireteams from trivially obliterating enemies on things like Strikes. There are certain Strikes that can be downright boring if your team is too good or too prepared. Modifiers that force a little actual teamwork and struggle are a plus in my book!

As a modifier, it could be cool. But the first time you are doing an activity, you should be able to experiment.

I think a better compromise would be fewer weapon reserve slots on the characters. You can have TEN of each type of weapon on your person… maybe it should be three.

API access for third party apps like Ishtar Commander and DIM makes the number of reserve slots irrelevant; you can swap in any item from the vault into any empty reserve slot and then equip it.

I'm also not sure how I feel about this; it may make sense for non-matchmade activities.

I have a hunch it'll be used sparingly, closer to (the original) Nightfall modifier. Loadout Lock basically, design wise, would be sort of giving you a soft "one try or back to orbit" mechanic.

For some activities, it could make it much more interesting. Do you bring the shotgun for the melee room, or bring a sniper for the wide open encounter? Trade off being that you'll have to depend on your other two slots to lean on.

I think a better compromise would be fewer weapon reserve slots on the characters. You can have TEN of each type of weapon on your person… maybe it should be three.

API access for third party apps like Ishtar Commander and DIM makes the number of reserve slots irrelevant; you can swap in any item from the vault into any empty reserve slot and then equip it.

So how about you can only put items into the vault from orbit, or the tower…

What if they have PvP events that have the loadouts locked to certain weapon types? Something like sidearms/snipers, smg/shotgun, or swords only.

Practically though… I think it would kill experimentation and improvisation. Having to restart the activity just to try different approaches would kind of be a drag. Also, if say, the raid had locked loadouts, a simple return to orbit and reloading of the checkpoint could thwart that…

Ohh man, I say LEAN THE FUCK INTO THAT.

Push that idea even farther.

More random enemy placements so you don't know what to expect, and you don't know what shielding states.
Nightfall rules so a wipe sends you back
Give players limited information on the possible threats
Incorporate anti cheese mechanics like a timer
Embrace the fact that you will fail it over and over  

I am much more excited for the notion of loadout locks requiring you to experiment with your gameplay instead of just switching to the guns that are best fit for an encounter.

Practically though… I think it would kill experimentation and improvisation. Having to restart the activity just to try different approaches would kind of be a drag. Also, if say, the raid had locked loadouts, a simple return to orbit and reloading of the checkpoint could thwart that…

Ohh man, I say LEAN THE FUCK INTO THAT.

Push that idea even farther.

More random enemy placements so you don't know what to expect, and you don't know what shielding states.
Nightfall rules so a wipe sends you back
Give players limited information on the possible threats
Incorporate anti cheese mechanics like a timer
Embrace the fact that you will fail it over and over

This sounds like a complete nightmare to me, lol

A raid where each wipe sends you back to orbit? With random enemies and timers?

Nooooooo thanks :)

I really hope the whole locked loadout thing doesn't apply to raids. It's easy for us to say "well it would encourage teamwork" but that's leaving Bungie themselves totally out of the equation. Nobody can deny that Bungie has a habit of designing raid encounters (boss fights in particular) that favor or even require certain weapon types.

Have you ever tried to beat Golgoroth without at least 4-5 high impact sniper rifles in your fireteam? It's impossible for all but the very best teams.

I could see locked loadouts being a fun wrinkle to add to the raids as part of a sort of challenge mode or something like that. A way to spice them up after we've already beaten and mastered them and just need ways to keep them fresh.

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I understand why we go to raids immediately, but maybe raids aren't the best fit for a model like this.

Raids are kind of about something different here, group puzzle solving, communication, ritual, and hanging out. Their bespoke mechanics don't fit well with procedural challenges. I kind of think Raids are a thing that works great, and the core concept works. Obv. some of the elements need updates (damage phases, hard mechanics) but the bones of raids are still there.

If you are going to build these rogue-like-lite activities, I think something like nightfalls makes more sense. If we are feeling really frisky, we could even make it one shot per week, and if you fail, you can't get the rewards. Maybe that's kind of punitive, but if you look at the way stuff like daily runs in spelunky connects I think this could be super successful.

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I understand why we go to raids immediately, but maybe raids aren't the best fit for a model like this.

Raids are kind of about something different here, group puzzle solving, communication, ritual, and hanging out. Their bespoke mechanics don't fit well with procedural challenges. I kind of think Raids are a thing that works great, and the core concept works. Obv. some of the elements need updates (damage phases, hard mechanics) but the bones of raids are still there.

If you are going to build these rogue-like-lite activities, I think something like nightfalls makes more sense. If we are feeling really frisky, we could even make it one shot per week, and if you fail, you can't get the rewards. Maybe that's kind of punitive, but if you look at the way stuff like daily runs in spelunky connects I think this could be super successful.

Yep, I'm willing to bet this is just another modifier.

When I first saw this, I didn't think it would be a "hard" lock like so many people were inferring, but after double checking some sources, that does seem to be the case.

I was listening to the latest podcast again today, and Luke called out some community challenges people had been doing (Kill the War-Priest using only NLB was the example he used).

I thought these lockouts would be similar to the raid challenges, where you could fail the challenge (if you switched weapons), but still pass the encounter. Checking each player's loadout to see if anything ever changed during an encounter seems like it wouldn't be that hard.

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...are during Trials and during Raids.

When leveling up, I'm always using my highest light weapons, period. Doesn't matter what they are, whether they suck or not, etc..

At max level, there's no reason to change weapons during most activities, with the possible exception of if you're purely trying to level up weapons and just finished one, but D2 doesn't have that so.... yeah, not applicable.

Raids: Certain bosses demand me to have a sniper rifle or a gjallerhorn. Since each raid encounter is different, being prevented from changing weapons will also limit raid encounter design, and/or add a wholly unnecessary step of going to orbit and flying back in.

Trials: This is the ONLY place where fixed loadouts could be reasonable, but - personally - I think it's dumb. Part of the fun was adapting to the other team's setup.

When I first saw this, I didn't think it would be a "hard" lock like so many people were inferring, but after double checking some sources, that does seem to be the case.

I was listening to the latest podcast again today, and Luke called out some community challenges people had been doing (Kill the War-Priest using only NLB was the example he used).

I thought these lockouts would be similar to the raid challenges, where you could fail the challenge (if you switched weapons), but still pass the encounter. Checking each player's loadout to see if anything ever changed during an encounter seems like it wouldn't be that hard.

It would be much easier to check "Has this boss taken damage from anything other than this type of gun"

Raids

That is assuming encounter damage phases and things of that nature match the mold for existing Raids. Given that everything else has been reworked and that you have Kinetic/Energy/Power, I would make conjecture that such things have been reworked around that fact already.

Trials

As it is a wholly reworked mode, now as 4v4, and we don't know any changed mechanics, that falls into the same situation. Kinetic/Energy means you are running two "Primary" weapons, one that is better against supers. Depending on how Power ammo is meted the requirement for modifying loadouts instead of adapting as a player seems relatively minor, at most. Being locked into a Scout and a Sidearm or a Auto and a Hand Cannon or a Pulse and SMG is not going to have the same limitations as a Hand Cannon and Shotgun or Scout and Sniper does in ToO.

Raids

That is assuming encounter damage phases and things of that nature match the mold for existing Raids. Given that everything else has been reworked and that you have Kinetic/Energy/Power, I would make conjecture that such things have been reworked around that fact already.

The raids being the best part of Dest1ny by a wide margin imo, I certainly hope they haven't changed the formula too much.

Trials

As it is a wholly reworked mode, now as 4v4, and we don't know any changed mechanics, that falls into the same situation. Kinetic/Energy means you are running two "Primary" weapons,

Yes indeed. Probably this won't be a big deal, and it will definitely cut down on the pre-game fake-out that some teams would do of loading in with low light gear in order to sandbag their opponents. It also means perks that give you full ammo on spawn can't be used and then swapped out to game the system.

one that is better against supers.

First I've heard of this. Can you fill me in on the details of it?

Depending on how Power ammo is meted the requirement for modifying loadouts instead of adapting as a player seems relatively minor, at most. Being locked into a Scout and a Sidearm or a Auto and a Hand Cannon or a Pulse and SMG is not going to have the same limitations as a Hand Cannon and Shotgun or Scout and Sniper does in ToO.

Very true. By the same token, however, swapping the type of weapon also seems like it would be less impactful, so I can only assume they're going to do something funky with ammo per weapon and this is to avoid exploitation and/or work around a limitation of the new system. We do know that weapons are statted individually now rather than as a whole class, so I can see differing ammo counts per gun within the same class of weapon as a thing.

one that is better against supers.

First I've heard of this. Can you fill me in on the details of it?

In Des2ny, when in a roaming super, you are more vulnerable to weapons with an element type matching your own. So if you activate Golden Gun, solar weapons do more damage on you until it wears off. This works in PvP, although I haven't seen it explicitly mentioned as being a thing in PvE as well.

https://twitter.com/BungieHelp/status/884888526248058880

Official companion app shuts down for D1 soon, DIM et all will still work.

I believe it doesn't have to match. I'll have to hunt down a source but I'm pretty sure it's any weapon in your Energy slot, regardless of matching.

https://twitter.com/Claude_Jerome/status/865727406346125317:

"ANY type of energy damage will deal bonus damage to enemy Supers. Grenades and Melee count too. You do NOT have to match damage types." - Claude Jerome

Totally agree that Raids are the best slice of Destiny. However, I didn't mean to suggest major changes to the core of the Raiding experience, just to things based on damage output and weapon "requirements" for different encounters. You can still maintain Raids without focusing damage as an element of weapons (Aegis super, Sword, Light Bombs, whatever those sparky-throw-y things are called) as the root to damage phases.

The only weapon slot I think will have crazy ammo variation will be the Power slot as it is going to be on-map pick up. I think opponents will be dropping Kinetic and Energy ammo. Personally, I'd rather those slots go the Titanfall 2 route, where you hqve infinite ammo, but limited Anti-Titan. For PvP that is. But Rockets seem to get a shot or two while a Grenade Launcher or shotgun gets a lot more shots per drop. I think the Beta will bring a better perspective on how flexible the new gear system is for PvP and might make locked loadouts seem less limiting.

Correct. It's hard to track down individual sources during these waves of interviews and podcasts and videos, but it has been said multiple times that any energy weapon will do increased damage to supers. There was also at least one recent mention that matching damage types would do more damage. It was from an official source during an interview or something, but I've only heard that second part once so far.

Thanks! Yeah, I had forgotten about the abilities doing bonus damage.

So, there is some strategy to what you want as you Energy and how you are going to cover down your other range bands with your Kinetic.

https://twitter.com/Claude_Jerome/status/865727406346125317:

"ANY type of energy damage will deal bonus damage to enemy Supers. Grenades and Melee count too. You do NOT have to match damage types." - Claude Jerome

So why would you use your kinetic primary at all ever?

https://twitter.com/Claude_Jerome/status/865727406346125317:

"ANY type of energy damage will deal bonus damage to enemy Supers. Grenades and Melee count too. You do NOT have to match damage types." - Claude Jerome

So why would you use your kinetic primary at all ever?

Maybe it does more damage to non-super people? That's a good question. Especially seeing as they share ammo.

https://twitter.com/Claude_Jerome/status/865727406346125317:

"ANY type of energy damage will deal bonus damage to enemy Supers. Grenades and Melee count too. You do NOT have to match damage types." - Claude Jerome

So why would you use your kinetic primary at all ever?

For range differences. If you watch the DRE and E3 gameplay you can see that some guns absolutely melt at close range, but have a pretty hard range limit. Having just one primary with no specials would make it impossible to engage against all weapons well. Now you can run a kinetic scout rifle and an energy SMG (or vice versa) and have ranges covered while also having a gun to use specifically for when a guardian pops their super.

So why would you use your kinetic primary at all ever?

For range differences.

I'm not even sure how this question could have been asked seriously. Remember in Halo when you chose your two weapons to cover a variety of situations, ranges, burst damage etc? This forces similar choices. An elemental weapon won't be good at all ranges etc (hopefully). Do you want to cross-map the super with a scout rifle or do you want your close range SMG to melt them up close? I'm a fan of having to make such choices.

one that is better against supers.

First I've heard of this. Can you fill me in on the details of it?

In Des2ny, when in a roaming super, you are more vulnerable to weapons with an element type matching your own. So if you activate Golden Gun, solar weapons do more damage on you until it wears off. This works in PvP, although I haven't seen it explicitly mentioned as being a thing in PvE as well.

Huh, neat/weird. If I can't change my weapon loadout to take advantage of this, it turns what could be a chess game into a crap shoot.

So why would you use your kinetic primary at all ever?

For range differences.

I'm not even sure how this question could have been asked seriously. Remember in Halo when you chose your two weapons to cover a variety of situations, ranges, burst damage etc?

I remember Halo 2 being:
Long range - Battle Rifle
Short range - BXR

https://twitter.com/Claude_Jerome/status/865727406346125317:

"ANY type of energy damage will deal bonus damage to enemy Supers. Grenades and Melee count too. You do NOT have to match damage types." - Claude Jerome

So why would you use your kinetic primary at all ever?

Because Energy ammo won't be infinite, just like secondary isn't now?

https://twitter.com/Claude_Jerome/status/865727406346125317:

"ANY type of energy damage will deal bonus damage to enemy Supers. Grenades and Melee count too. You do NOT have to match damage types." - Claude Jerome

So why would you use your kinetic primary at all ever?

Because Energy ammo won't be infinite, just like secondary isn't now?

Probably the right answer :-)

So why would you use your kinetic primary at all ever?

For range differences.

I'm not even sure how this question could have been asked seriously. Remember in Halo when you chose your two weapons to cover a variety of situations, ranges, burst damage etc?

I remember Halo 2 being:
Long range - Battle Rifle
Short range - BXR

And the Battle Rifle was kinetic, right?