I thought people might be interested in how long the raid has taken us, and how long it took us last night.

Week 1: We cleared one encounter per night for the first two nights, and then failed hard at the third encounter for two days before finally beating it. The final boss took us another 2 days and a very small pointer from a friend who had already done it, but other than that one clue we figured everything out for ourselves. There was also a fair amount of exploration done - this is a really fun raid to poke around in!

Week 2: Cleared the whole thing in 1 hour and 48 minutes.

Last night's run was by no means clean, and at one point we bugged out and had to fully return to orbit and come back in since the fight wouldn't respawn us after our wipe. 90 minute runs seem possible.

Last night's run was by no means clean, and at one point we bugged out and had to fully return to orbit and come back in since the fight wouldn't respawn us after our wipe. 90 minute runs seem possible.

We did it in 75 minutes last night, and that was with someone taking a break to speak with someone on the phone for 10 mins, and numerous workarounds for this new glitch where people don't spawn in. It was probably under an hour of actual playtime.

We spent half as long just looking for the chests to use our keys on afterward :-p

(By the way, when that glitch happens just have one person leave and rejoin).

I was genuinely surprised (and delighted!) by how quickly and smoothly we went through last night. We two phased everything with I think a single false start on every encounter, which I think we can contribute to folks quickly learning a new strategy. This really might be the easiest raid, if you have a good team that works well together.

Last night's run was by no means clean, and at one point we bugged out and had to fully return to orbit and come back in since the fight wouldn't respawn us after our wipe. 90 minute runs seem possible.

We did it in 75 minutes last night, and that was with someone taking a break to speak with someone on the phone for 10 mins, and numerous workarounds for this new glitch where people don't spawn in. It was probably under an hour of actual playtime.

We spent half as long just looking for the chests to use our keys on afterward :-p

My time included the chests :) Yeah, just clearing the bosses is very smooth.

(By the way, when that glitch happens just have one person leave and rejoin).

Didn't work. He could walk around but the other five of us were still stuck.

My time included the chests :) Yeah, just clearing the bosses is very smooth.

You could reasonably get three chests in like 15 minutes. We were just a crew of people that had absolutely no idea how to get around down there. We spent way too long trying to find the drain chest and ended up all the way at the opposite end of where we needed to be.

My time included the chests :) Yeah, just clearing the bosses is very smooth.

You could reasonably get three chests in like 15 minutes. We were just a crew of people that had absolutely no idea how to get around down there. We spent way too long trying to find the drain chest and ended up all the way at the opposite end of where we needed to be.

Oof. We had Aqueduct, Transfer, and Conduit. All pretty easy, though conduit is a bit of a hike from the others.

My time included the chests :) Yeah, just clearing the bosses is very smooth.

You could reasonably get three chests in like 15 minutes. We were just a crew of people that had absolutely no idea how to get around down there. We spent way too long trying to find the drain chest and ended up all the way at the opposite end of where we needed to be.

Oof. We had Aqueduct, Transfer, and Conduit. All pretty easy, though conduit is a bit of a hike from the others.

I ended up looking at a map, but the map was confusing as all hell. It's really not that complicated, I don't think--I just haven't spent enough time down there.

Oof. We had Aqueduct, Transfer, and Conduit. All pretty easy, though conduit is a bit of a hike from the others.

I ended up looking at a map, but the map was confusing as all hell. It's really not that complicated, I don't think--I just haven't spent enough time down there.

My understanding is that there are multiple Labyrinth routes out of each encounter space. If you know which one to take for a particular key, all of them are pretty straightforward and generally on the way to your next encounter.

I thought people might be interested in how long the raid has taken us, and how long it took us last night.

Week 1: We cleared one encounter per night for the first two nights, and then failed hard at the third encounter for two days before finally beating it. The final boss took us another 2 days and a very small pointer from a friend who had already done it, but other than that one clue we figured everything out for ourselves. There was also a fair amount of exploration done - this is a really fun raid to poke around in!

Week 2: Cleared the whole thing in 1 hour and 48 minutes.

Last night's run was by no means clean, and at one point we bugged out and had to fully return to orbit and come back in since the fight wouldn't respawn us after our wipe. 90 minute runs seem possible.

How can someone who is truly blind decide that they can write the official unofficial strategy guide for idiots after only 1 or 2 runs through the raid? (for the record I have not read the linked post, just noticed authors and find it interesting. Also have not read the remainder of this thread. I've become a careful clicker)

I'm still truly blind and I'm pretty sure that based on Destiny 1 Raids that after 1 or 2 runs I am not able to fully explain every aspect of the raid, each mechanic at work during gameplay, or each role necessary to beat the raid. (actually I'm not ever able to do that)
(not looking for a brow beating where you bring up your work history or professional credentials, you've made your past abundantly clear in prior posts)

I'm genuinely curious here
Is the raid really that short and simplistic?

I'm genuinely curious here
Is the raid really that short and simplistic?

Yes and no.

For my blind raid team (which was not the same as Kahzgul's, just to be clear), the mechanics became almost immediately apparent (as opposed to say, King's Fall, which involved a lot of trial and error to figure out what you were even supposed to do, and even more to figure out how to do it). We figured out the mechanics fairly quickly and then spent like two hours or better per encounter actually getting the execution down.

However, once we finished the raid once, it feels much more straight forward. We went from a like 9 hour run in week one, to like a 3-4 hour run in week two, to a 1 hour 15 minute run this week. Getting under an hour is completely possible, and actually feasible and not just possible in the theoretical "somebody will probably do it" sense. It won't be easy, and would require no wipes and as few phases as possible on every encounter, but it's definitely possible.

Oof. We had Aqueduct, Transfer, and Conduit. All pretty easy, though conduit is a bit of a hike from the others.

I ended up looking at a map, but the map was confusing as all hell. It's really not that complicated, I don't think--I just haven't spent enough time down there.

My understanding is that there are multiple Labyrinth routes out of each encounter space. If you know which one to take for a particular key, all of them are pretty straightforward and generally on the way to your next encounter.

That makes sense. As I said, I just haven't spent enough time down there.

To be honest, I don't like the labyrinth part of the raid very much. It's a neat idea, but I feel like I've spent enough time down there and it's not all that interesting or appealing to me. Getting those chests feels like a chore, rather than something fun. I can appreciate what they were trying to do, but as with most aspects in raiding, Vault of Glass still provides the example I would look to. The Gorgon chest was hidden and cool to find, but it ultimately became just a nice short little excursion between encounters and then you moved on. The underbelly might be that eventually, given enough time, but it's just enough of a pain in the ass to get around down there that I don't think I'll ever find it "fun."

- No text -

How can someone who is truly blind decide that they can write the official unofficial strategy guide for idiots after only 1 or 2 runs through the raid?

Running the raid blind and figuring out how all the mechanics fit together isn't just fun (it is), but it means that you have a much more detailed understanding of what needs to be be done and the consequences of every action. You know what works, what doesn't work, and how things interact and progress. Spend a few hours banging your collective heads against a challenge and you REALLY get to know that challenge. I'd posit that the best guides are written by those who ran it blind, rather than someone that started with a youtube video or someone else's written description.

Note that while the mechanics are static (barring challenges), strategies do evolve over time. When I did King's Fall Golgoroth for the first time, my group hit every orb and did damage from every pool for our first few runs - it was only later that we came across and adopted the single pool strategy. There's already some debate over two different approaches to one of this raid's encounters. I'd be curious to know how your blind team solves that one :)

-Chappy

The underbelly gets easier. In my second run I did probably spent as much time in the underbelly as in the encounters. My sixth run was last night and we breezed through the labyrinth - when you remember the different ways in and out of each room, you only need a map for the connections. I've found this to be the best "map" for a regular raider:

- No text -

- No text -

I thought people might be interested in how long the raid has taken us, and how long it took us last night.

Week 1: We cleared one encounter per night for the first two nights, and then failed hard at the third encounter for two days before finally beating it. The final boss took us another 2 days and a very small pointer from a friend who had already done it, but other than that one clue we figured everything out for ourselves. There was also a fair amount of exploration done - this is a really fun raid to poke around in!

Week 2: Cleared the whole thing in 1 hour and 48 minutes.

Last night's run was by no means clean, and at one point we bugged out and had to fully return to orbit and come back in since the fight wouldn't respawn us after our wipe. 90 minute runs seem possible.

How can someone who is truly blind decide that they can write the official unofficial strategy guide for idiots after only 1 or 2 runs through the raid? (for the record I have not read the linked post, just noticed authors and find it interesting. Also have not read the remainder of this thread. I've become a careful clicker)

I'm still truly blind and I'm pretty sure that based on Destiny 1 Raids that after 1 or 2 runs I am not able to fully explain every aspect of the raid, each mechanic at work during gameplay, or each role necessary to beat the raid. (actually I'm not ever able to do that)
(not looking for a brow beating where you bring up your work history or professional credentials, you've made your past abundantly clear in prior posts)

I'm genuinely curious here
Is the raid really that short and simplistic?

So running blind means you have to figure out how the mechanics work. It's not going to result in a perfect strategy, but it will result in a very strong understanding of the mechanics of each fight. And the fights here are all mechanics-based fights (rather than DPS races, which we've seen in some other D1 raids). So if you get the mechanics, you win, plain and simple. Probably a raid full of 250 light people who got the mechanics could clear the whole thing in 2 hours.

Compare someone who ran the raid blind and figured out how everything works to someone who only followed instructions they read online. "Stand here and shoot this" is not nearly as informed as "stand here because X is important, then shoot this because Y, and also there's Z going on over there but you shouldn't need to worry about that unless someone dies, etc."

My "unofficial official strategy guide" as you put it (thanks!) is really, *really* bare bones. It's a lot of "stand here and shoot this" instructions, and not a lot of "let me explain why X is important and how this mechanic really works." I've given you practical instructions without any of the context or theory, specifically because I was asked for really simple "do what when" type instructions. It's very possible, even *likely* that someone else does something different, and possible that the different thing they do is more effective. My strategy is just what my raid group came up with on our own. We think it's really good. But it might not be.

The underbelly gets easier. In my second run I did probably spent as much time in the underbelly as in the encounters. My sixth run was last night and we breezed through the labyrinth - when you remember the different ways in and out of each room, you only need a map for the connections. I've found this to be the best "map" for a regular raider:

Great map! Note that "optimal raid path" is not always correct as the encounter order changes every week.

How can someone who is truly blind decide that they can write the official unofficial strategy guide for idiots after only 1 or 2 runs through the raid?

Running the raid blind and figuring out how all the mechanics fit together isn't just fun (it is), but it means that you have a much more detailed understanding of what needs to be be done and the consequences of every action. You know what works, what doesn't work, and how things interact and progress. Spend a few hours banging your collective heads against a challenge and you REALLY get to know that challenge. I'd posit that the best guides are written by those who ran it blind, rather than someone that started with a youtube video or someone else's written description.

Note that while the mechanics are static (barring challenges), strategies do evolve over time. When I did King's Fall Golgoroth for the first time, my group hit every orb and did damage from every pool for our first few runs - it was only later that we came across and adopted the single pool strategy. There's already some debate over two different approaches to one of this raid's encounters. I'd be curious to know how your blind team solves that one :)

-Chappy

Hmmm, this raid does seem somewhat more straightforward than some of the others in the past.

Ah, maybe I came up with the questions in the first place because I started taking raids much more seriously in D1 once the completion nodes in books were added, and Hard mode and Challenges were emphasized. Strategies had to be ironed out or revised.

I agree with you on all accounts. (unsure why things had to be defined)
I'll go further. I'd posit that the best guides (people) compose their strategy after they have tried other methods and completed more than 2 runs? (direct this back to my realization that this raid is more straightforward than some others?)

I've been wondering for a long time about how and at what point a strategy for a raid becomes "The Strategy".

[learning->mastery rhetorical] At what point does someone who truly went in blind become completely un-blind and able to know that they have their best method discovered plus transmit that knowledge to others?

The proliferation of raid related data and strategies amongst the community(ies) fascinates me. It gives me this mental image of tree roots or dendrite cells. It really does intrigue me.

Imagine that some of the first "raids" may have been 'prehistoric' hunting parties. Important information, maybe even strategy, was possibly carved or drawn onto cave walls for others to see.

So running blind means you have to figure out how the mechanics work. It's not going to result in a perfect strategy, but it will result in a very strong understanding of the mechanics of each fight. And the fights here are all mechanics-based fights (rather than DPS races, which we've seen in some other D1 raids). So if you get the mechanics, you win, plain and simple. Probably a raid full of 250 light people who got the mechanics could clear the whole thing in 2 hours.

Compare someone who ran the raid blind and figured out how everything works to someone who only followed instructions they read online. "Stand here and shoot this" is not nearly as informed as "stand here because X is important, then shoot this because Y, and also there's Z going on over there but you shouldn't need to worry about that unless someone dies, etc."

My "unofficial official strategy guide" as you put it (thanks!) is really, *really* bare bones. It's a lot of "stand here and shoot this" instructions, and not a lot of "let me explain why X is important and how this mechanic really works." I've given you practical instructions without any of the context or theory, specifically because I was asked for really simple "do what when" type instructions. It's very possible, even *likely* that someone else does something different, and possible that the different thing they do is more effective. My strategy is just what my raid group came up with on our own. We think it's really good. But it might not be.

Thanks for the reply.
Again, I know what Blind means. I'm unsure sure why it needs to be re-defined. Did you know some things before going into the raid, but you just didn't know every single little gameplay/puzzle mechanic that was needed to clear an area to move onto the next?
I see what you guys are saying, its more of a mechanical raid than some so the mountain of necessary knowledge is somewhat smaller than others? I also now see that in a way you were going for thoughts and observations in a TL;DR version rather than an actual exhaustive guide.

After doing your raid runs did you end up cross referencing your newly gathered knowledge with any friends or information from the rest of the community at large?
Or will you now?
Did you record your play and watch it back to remember some of the detail things from the beginning to the end of the raid?

So running blind means you have to figure out how the mechanics work. It's not going to result in a perfect strategy, but it will result in a very strong understanding of the mechanics of each fight. And the fights here are all mechanics-based fights (rather than DPS races, which we've seen in some other D1 raids). So if you get the mechanics, you win, plain and simple. Probably a raid full of 250 light people who got the mechanics could clear the whole thing in 2 hours.

Compare someone who ran the raid blind and figured out how everything works to someone who only followed instructions they read online. "Stand here and shoot this" is not nearly as informed as "stand here because X is important, then shoot this because Y, and also there's Z going on over there but you shouldn't need to worry about that unless someone dies, etc."

My "unofficial official strategy guide" as you put it (thanks!) is really, *really* bare bones. It's a lot of "stand here and shoot this" instructions, and not a lot of "let me explain why X is important and how this mechanic really works." I've given you practical instructions without any of the context or theory, specifically because I was asked for really simple "do what when" type instructions. It's very possible, even *likely* that someone else does something different, and possible that the different thing they do is more effective. My strategy is just what my raid group came up with on our own. We think it's really good. But it might not be.

Thanks for the reply.
Again, I know what Blind means. I'm unsure sure why it needs to be re-defined. Did you know some things before going into the raid, but you just didn't know every single little gameplay/puzzle mechanic that was needed to clear an area to move onto the next?

No, we were totally blind. We guessed it would be the "world-eater" based on the heavy weapon quest thing, but didn't know what that meant.

I see what you guys are saying, its more of a mechanical raid than some so the mountain of necessary knowledge is somewhat smaller than others?

Uh, what? Blind raiders will, by the time they figure out and complete an encounter, know more about that encounter than non-blind raiders. 99% of the time. It's the difference between knowing the answer is 5, but not knowing why, and being able to figure out that 2 plus 3 equals 5.

I also now see that in a way you were going for thoughts and observations in a TL;DR version rather than an actual exhaustive guide.

Yeah, he asked for a quick and dirty guide for dummies, so I made the explanation as bare bones as possible. There's almost no "why" in my guide at all. It's pure mechanics.

After doing your raid runs did you end up cross referencing your newly gathered knowledge with any friends or information from the rest of the community at large?

We will do that this week, but have not done it yet. Learning how other people beat an encounter is interesting! The gauntlet, for example, was beaten in a way that seems novel to me by a group of DBO's blind raiders.

Or will you now?
Did you record your play and watch it back to remember some of the detail things from the beginning to the end of the raid?

No need. Seriously when you figure something out at a fundamental level by playing it blind, it sticks with you.

Sorry to circle back around and necro an old topic, but thanks again for the good replies and advanced/"grown up" form of discourse. All exchanges don't have to devolve in an immature fashion.

After doing the Raid 1.5 times now I can really see where you are coming from. I never did get a Blind Raid in and it is truly truly disheartening.

I wasn't quite ready to raid when everyone else was on raid release day/week, because I didn't rush through the game as fast as I could have, for no good reason. I was ready to raid a week and a half later, still within the release month, I truly don't believe within that time frame should be too late to get a Blind Raid going. I will admit that the extra weeks have been nice to level up to right around 300, helping with the difficulty of the raid enemies. (and much thanks goes to all in the Clan that have helped others with the Clan/Raid/Trials engrams, etc.)

Coupling that very disheartening feeling of not being able to put a blind raid together along with some of the other changes that came along with the sequel have me questioning? I also just found out that a good friend that didn't play PS4 D1 beyond 'Vanilla' recently picked up D2 for the Xbox to play with co-workers and is enjoying it. Maybe I'm on the wrong platform?

Doing the Raid 1.5 times and trying to recall each encounter or paths through the underbelly from memory and being able to express it in a complete thought to someone else, reinforces for me, that my brain doesn't work the same was as everyone elses seem to. I guess a real world example might be that I've never been great with road/Driving directions. I especially can't give them out very well. I can however remember specific details or things about the journey, like landmarks or things along the way toward the destination (non street names), or something that has changed since the last time I drove that route. I've never quite understood how/why some people get a sick endorphin joy from being able to describe/give out perfect and specific Driving directions to other people. Maybe it all goes along with the whole pointless FIRST! mentality?

There's already some debate over two different approaches to one of this raid's encounters. I'd be curious to know how your blind team solves that one :)

This is fascinating to me. I'd done that encounter 3 or 4 times by the time I raided with you, and felt that the OTHER method (the one your group doesn't use) was trivial to implement, and pretty rock-solid. I'd read your description here on the forum, of your technique, and I remember thinking "that is just SERIOUSLY complicated, and unnecessarily so." But as a 6th to an existing raid group, I knew better than to argue - you do what you're told when you join a group that already has strats. And as I told you after completing the section, my opinion changed; your way wasn't more convoluted - it just sounded like it was. It worked fine. I still questioned how necessary it was, though - my experience with you has been that you settle on the most efficient techniques, always, and the other way seemed pretty efficient, so...

Two nights later, I ran the raid with a different group, and went back to the more common technique. And we failed, more than half a dozen times, for half a dozen reasons. (We eventually nailed it, but not before NOT nailing it, a lot.)

So I'm once again revising my opinion - not only is your method not more convoluted, it's probably objectively better. :)