On Polygon

I found this article somewhat ironic. One of the reasons he gives in favor of sunsetting is that currently, speaking of getting new weapons:

"'...Then stashed it and never fired a shot,' said Smith. It’s a relatable problem, and something that those of us at Polygon who play Destiny have experienced. 'I want to want a better thing,' said Smith."

It's unclear to me how sunsetting solves this problem. I have had a number of Moon weapons from the Shadowkeep expansion sitting in my vault, waiting for a chance they might actually be good someday. Now that they have been sunset, this will never happen. I have also had a Thin Line 120 energy handcannon from Forsaken for quite a while. It's now quite good with the recent changes to hand cannons, but too bad there are no non-sunset 120 energy hand cannons to replace it with.

Then, speaking of the reactions of players to avoid items due to be sunset soon:

"...Smith used shopping for milk as an example. When you go to buy milk at your local store, you always look for the latest expiration date you can. It doesn’t matter if you’re going to drink the entire gallon when you get home; you’ll almost always pick an expiration date 10 days away over one that’s nine days away."

Yes, this is true. People do this because it sucks when milk goes sour.

Sunsetting is one of those issues that will constantly hang over the game from now on. On one hand, it doesn’t matter all that much. I’ll just use whatever gear I can. On the other, it fucking sucks and it makes me want to drop the game in a lot of ways. I love the new raid gear. I wanted to get a full set on every character. But honestly, why bother? In a year it won’t matter. Why invest all the time to get good rolls on that gear and all the materials upgrading it to make it useable.

Sunsetting is one of those things where I can understand how they arrived there, and I can see why it might seem like a good idea. But it doesn’t fix any of the problems they cite as reasons for it, and it makes me want to engage with the game far less. It almost completely removes being able to play the game in a carefree way. With the now super limited pool of weapons, it can be very difficult to find gear that can meet the requirements for Match Game and whatever particular Champions are in that activity. The game is pushing in ways that actively make it less fun because of how limiting it is.

On the other, it fucking sucks and it makes me want to drop the game in a lot of ways.

It IS why I dropped the game, and honestly I'm not coming back until it's gone. Which probably means I'm not coming back. :(

I mean, this is an inherently unsolvable problem when you have so many weapons, most of which play extremely similarly. There's almost by definition going to be weapons you acquire that you never use. And it's exacerbated by using guns as extrinsic rewards.

I'm curious why it's a "problem" though. So what if a player doesn't use every gun they acquire?

Look at how much time and energy and how many problems arise from the investment system. To fix the problem is to fundamentally overhaul the very idea of it.

I’ve never cared particularly about gear or making builds in the same way you do.

Sunsetting doesn’t really change the way I play the game. I was already always rotating in new things as they came into the game. Kindled Orchid replaced my Trust, despite them not being similar at all. Loaded Question got subbed in for Recluse pretty often. Patron of Lost Causes took the top slot the season it was added. Contrary to what Bungie thinks, I don’t need to be forced to swap my loadouts. It’s not my fault they designed broken weapons that became de facto loadouts for difficult content.

The difference now is that it IS completely forced. Instead of using something I want to use because it’s fun and I like it, I’m often using something because it’s literally the only thing I have that can cover the shield type I need to hit and also provide Champion coverage.

I do think it will get better, functionally. This was always going to hurt as the first sweep of weapons leaving essential took out two years worth of gear. It won’t be so bad now that it will be a rolling swap every season. That it will functionally work better does not mean it won’t feel really shitty, however. My new Heritage/Trustee combo might be my favorite PvE loadout in Destiny ever, and a year from now it will be gone. And that fucking sucks.

.>_< ... *Sigh*...

How is it that anytime Luke says something out in public, I find myself... rolling my eyes in bewilderment at something. Luke is the Game Director, and a former editor of 1UP. Yet for the life of me, to what I can see, I have not the slightest idea why he has that titled distinction. He only seems to do, for what I can see, half the job well. It's... odd. He seems to be an EXCELLENT manager, which I admit is a VERY important. The "high-level decisions about schedule, budget, and interaction with publishers" part. Said and done, the Beyond Light launch in this 2020 was VERY well done. Yet when he utters something about the design of the game, the "look and feel", then its by a generous 60/40 rolling odds where my eyes shall be rolling too. Can any one who reads some of Lukes design explanations prove that Luke didn't light a huge doobie before approving them? All we seem to get are surface level explanations. The sun is hot. Water freezes when cold. Folks keep guns in their vault an then they will never use them again. Milk goes bad. Sunsetting still is bullshit.

Simple.

“Like, how many times have you, in Destiny, went out, worked really hard to get a gun. Got it? Been like ‘Cool, I have it.’ Then stashed it and never fired a shot”

Yeah? But... why? I know why for ME, I've only been yammering/ranting/bitching about it for years now (THIS IS A LOOT GAME WITH PISS POOR IN-GAME ORGANIZATIONAL ABILITY!!! GAAA!). Folks have a hard enough time figuring out 32 flavors, so what in the world makes Bungie think we're going to know what to do with X00 number of legendary guns that we have in Destiny 2? Why did I keep this? Is this for PvP or PvE? What in this gun makes it worth using over something else? I don't have this problem for exotics, which in their perks designates an exact purpose for each. Plus I can pull out of collections at any time (which is SO AWESOME might I add).

But oh no... lets just light up that Mary Jane and POOF!

But Smith spoke to the other side of Infusion Capping as well. “We’re certainly looking at the behaviors that I think infusion caps create,” said Smith. Smith has noticed a new problem creeping into the minds of players: abandoning weapons months before they leave viability.

Here’s how it plays out: players will delete some of their favorite weapons a full season ahead of its Sunset date, because if they can’t use it in three months, why use it now? It may not be rational, but it’s an idea I’ve personally seen friends and Clan members express numerous times over the past six months.

To explain this phenomenon, Smith used shopping for milk as an example. When you go to buy milk at your local store, you always look for the latest expiration date you can. It doesn’t matter if you’re going to drink the entire gallon when you get home; you’ll almost always pick an expiration date 10 days away over one that’s nine days away.

Woah man... milk goes bad man... waa. Waf if. What if... guns went bad like milk? Woah!

I know I know, he's describing a new problem, and is making it simpler to describe with a metaphor. Fine. But I'm sitting here asking about the root issue, where I must ask why this problem exists in the first place? Why are they doubling down on something that JUST MAKES MORE PROBLEMS! THERE IS YOUR SIGN FOLKS!

Again... if I could ORGANIZE my stuff; This is for... add clear or DPS or I love the feel of use or... something else, that would help with keeping things and removing things. Why did I keep this? Oh... I kept this for infusion alone. Well I shard it then. All they had to do, IN A LOOT GAME, was make it so that we could organize our stuff and well. IT SOLVES SO MUCH! Shoot! Give me the simple ability to add some tool tip text! Something!

Oh! But what about problem children like Mountain Top? Remove them. Say hey, this wasn't balanced right. It's out. Here's some bright dust or cores or whatever something something for the trouble. And boom, no problem. Simple.

You can pay me the big bucks now.

What I really wish this article was about, what I would LOVE to hear talked about instead is WHY Bungie thinks folks are playing as they play, but... I suppose that would require some competence in asking the right questions first. After all, here we are. In Sunsetting (recent rant) and all the joys of its active implantation it has brought. And apparently no one freek'n asked, or was listened to.

Literally all of the organizational ideas you've expressed in this post are available in DIM. You can tag items, you can organize items by use, you can mark items for infusion only.

"Oh, but that's not in the game!" Well, Bungie built the API specifically because they knew that the community has some pretty fantastic coders in it - and personally, I think my computer is a BETTER place to do any of that organization/sorting than my Xbox, anyway.

Regardless of whether you agree with me or not, the tools are there, and yet lots of us still feel overwhelmed. Organization doesn't solve the problems you think it solves, and it doesn't make sunsetting any easier.

(Also, your flippant "solution" to the Mountaintop-type problem makes me roll my eyes harder than anything Luke Smith has EVER said. But maybe that's just me.)

I don't agree with everything Luke says, but I think he thinks pretty long and hard about how Destiny works, and for the most part, I find his solutions to be well above the bottom of the barrel, when looking around at what others are suggesting. Sunsetting sucks, but I don't know what would make it better. I haven't heard any suggestions from the community that solve the problems BUNGIE needs to solve - just saying "hey, don't do this thing we don't want you to do" doesn't really help anything. They're doing it because they feel they have to, and nobody, so far, has provided an alternative that works for them. I don't like that, but I don't think they're smoking dope when they're planning.

- No text -

I don't agree with everything Luke says, but I think he thinks pretty long and hard about how Destiny works, and for the most part, I find his solutions to be well above the bottom of the barrel, when looking around at what others are suggesting. Sunsetting sucks, but I don't know what would make it better. I haven't heard any suggestions from the community that solve the problems BUNGIE needs to solve - just saying "hey, don't do this thing we don't want you to do" doesn't really help anything. They're doing it because they feel they have to, and nobody, so far, has provided an alternative that works for them. I don't like that, but I don't think they're smoking dope when they're planning.

What problems are they attempting to solve? I am genuinely asking, because I don’t think we’ve ever gotten a legitimate answer to that question. I’ve heard that it’s about balance and not having to work so hard at achieving it. I’ve heard it’s about making new stuff more appealing without having to make broken OP weapons to replace old OP weapons. Sunsetting demonstrably doesn’t solve either of those problems. I genuinely would like a frank discussion with Bungie about what they are trying to accomplish with sunsetting.

I don't agree with everything Luke says, but I think he thinks pretty long and hard about how Destiny works, and for the most part, I find his solutions to be well above the bottom of the barrel, when looking around at what others are suggesting. Sunsetting sucks, but I don't know what would make it better. I haven't heard any suggestions from the community that solve the problems BUNGIE needs to solve - just saying "hey, don't do this thing we don't want you to do" doesn't really help anything. They're doing it because they feel they have to, and nobody, so far, has provided an alternative that works for them. I don't like that, but I don't think they're smoking dope when they're planning.

What problems are they attempting to solve? I am genuinely asking, because I don’t think we’ve ever gotten a legitimate answer to that question. I’ve heard that it’s about balance and not having to work so hard at achieving it. I’ve heard it’s about making new stuff more appealing without having to make broken OP weapons to replace old OP weapons. Sunsetting demonstrably doesn’t solve either of those problems. I genuinely would like a frank discussion with Bungie about what they are trying to accomplish with sunsetting.

I think the example that clicks best with me is Mountaintop.

In short I believe that balancing mountaintop would either require every other gun to be changed or for mountaintop to simply not work anywhere close to how it does currently.

Sunsetting allows me the ability to use it in control, a random strike, or even the existing dungeons while encouraging me to mix it up during Nightfalls/Empire Hunts/Master Lost Sectors.

I don't agree with everything Luke says, but I think he thinks pretty long and hard about how Destiny works, and for the most part, I find his solutions to be well above the bottom of the barrel, when looking around at what others are suggesting. Sunsetting sucks, but I don't know what would make it better. I haven't heard any suggestions from the community that solve the problems BUNGIE needs to solve - just saying "hey, don't do this thing we don't want you to do" doesn't really help anything. They're doing it because they feel they have to, and nobody, so far, has provided an alternative that works for them. I don't like that, but I don't think they're smoking dope when they're planning.

What problems are they attempting to solve? I am genuinely asking, because I don’t think we’ve ever gotten a legitimate answer to that question. I’ve heard that it’s about balance and not having to work so hard at achieving it. I’ve heard it’s about making new stuff more appealing without having to make broken OP weapons to replace old OP weapons. Sunsetting demonstrably doesn’t solve either of those problems. I genuinely would like a frank discussion with Bungie about what they are trying to accomplish with sunsetting.

I was always under the impression it was about reducing the pool of possible interactions in a way that they could manage. If you've only got to worry about a year's worth of items, you don't need to worry that that obscure pulse rifle from year 1 that had a unique perk that was never followed up on will suddenly become the godkiller that ruins a challenging raid experience.

I think it was first envisioned to handle the plethora of mods, and then expanded to take care of things like weapon overabundance. (I don't think they've ever expressed that specifically; it's just a feeling I have. I think Cody's partially right with his argument that there are too many guns with similar - but not identical - perks; functionally, they're identical, but your QA team has to test them ALL, and that's hard. Thinning the herd makes their job less stressful, and (ostensibly) allows them to spend more time with stuff that actually DOES matter.)

That's just how it feels to me, though. I don't know how much of that is real. (The first part was stated explicitly, early on, though I haven't heard about it recently. The rest is just my feeling.)

I think the example that clicks best with me is Mountaintop.

In short I believe that balancing mountaintop would either require every other gun to be changed or for mountaintop to simply not work anywhere close to how it does currently.

Sunsetting allows me the ability to use it in control, a random strike, or even the existing dungeons while encouraging me to mix it up during Nightfalls/Empire Hunts/Master Lost Sectors.

They made significant changes to Mountaintop in Beyond Light, though, so doesn’t that disprove your point? Sunsetting literally wasn’t enough, they still had to balance it.

Sunsetting sucks, but I don't know what would make it better. I haven't heard any suggestions from the community that solve the problems BUNGIE needs to solve - just saying "hey, don't do this thing we don't want you to do" doesn't really help anything. They're doing it because they feel they have to, and nobody, so far, has provided an alternative that works for them. I don't like that, but I don't think they're smoking dope when they're planning.

To be fair to us fans, almost every time a community manager posts on Reddit about feedback, they specifically ask for feedback on how changes make us feel, not for specific suggestions.

Literally all of the organizational ideas you've expressed in this post are available in DIM. You can tag items, you can organize items by use, you can mark items for infusion only.

"Oh, but that's not in the game!" Well, Bungie built the API specifically because they knew that the community has some pretty fantastic coders in it - and personally, I think my computer is a BETTER place to do any of that organization/sorting than my Xbox, anyway.

Regardless of whether you agree with me or not, the tools are there, and yet lots of us still feel overwhelmed. Organization doesn't solve the problems you think it solves, and it doesn't make sunsetting any easier.

Which is EXACTLY WHY I made that distinction of "IN THE GAME". Organization works best as you get it. I should not have to use third party stuff to play the game. That is a failure of core maniacs for, as I say it again, the game with a core mechanic of "loot". I know in the moment why I put something away, and shouldn't have to jump around different screens to do what I need to do. It should not feel like work. The best way to do that is in game.

If you disagree with that, than please bring better ideas. This may help, here is a question I've not seen asked (and even alluded to in my post); do exotic weapons suffer from the same issue? Why or why not?

(Also, your flippant "solution" to the Mountaintop-type problem makes me roll my eyes harder than anything Luke Smith has EVER said. But maybe that's just me.)

Sorry you found what would work to be flippant and worthy of rolling your eyes. What do you see that challenges the effectiveness? Is it not why at minimum Bungie goes and disables things when there is an issue? It WORKS! There would be less issue then sunsettings continual muck. Yes, some folks would be peeved on all the effort made towards the weapon would suddenly be for not, as we've seen with sunsetting ad nauseam, hence the "bright dust" or something to that effect.

Sometimes we screw up. Bungie is comprised of humans. It happens. You go out, say ya screwed up, make amends and move on. Shoot! They could even add what they learned in the process so the community can talk about it with some substance should some of us want to. In Sunsetting, ya can't really do that I think. If I'm proven wrong, GREAT! I hope so. But I do not currently think so.

I don't agree with everything Luke says, but I think he thinks pretty long and hard about how Destiny works, and for the most part, I find his solutions to be well above the bottom of the barrel, when looking around at what others are suggesting. Sunsetting sucks, but I don't know what would make it better. I haven't heard any suggestions from the community that solve the problems BUNGIE needs to solve - just saying "hey, don't do this thing we don't want you to do" doesn't really help anything. They're doing it because they feel they have to, and nobody, so far, has provided an alternative that works for them. I don't like that, but I don't think they're smoking dope when they're planning.

If they are planning. I know I know. But, published actions speak louder!

There shouldn't have been an issue with the amount of loot in game once Sunsetting hit, that should have been planned for. There shouldn't have been weapons that drop -NOW- at the capped sunset, and thus unusable for pinnacle activities. That should have been planned for.

It wasn't. It's in the game. And if it was planned for, then this is a failure of communication too.

I can’t think of a single non-PC games where inventory management doesn’t suck. It’s almost a universal problem, I honestly, truly believe you’re asking for something that’s way more difficult than you might imagine. I wouldn’t mind some basic sorting filters in the vault (show by slot, element type, archetype, etc). I’ve never played a game that allows you to create loadouts in which that system isn’t a pain in the ass—I straight up think outsourcing that stuff to DIM is the best solution and that working to implement it within the game is a complete waste of resources and time.

Sunsetting sucks, but I don't know what would make it better. I haven't heard any suggestions from the community that solve the problems BUNGIE needs to solve - just saying "hey, don't do this thing we don't want you to do" doesn't really help anything. They're doing it because they feel they have to, and nobody, so far, has provided an alternative that works for them. I don't like that, but I don't think they're smoking dope when they're planning.

To be fair to us fans, almost every time a community manager posts on Reddit about feedback, they specifically ask for feedback on how changes make us feel, not for specific suggestions.

WE don't know their timetable, and most folks don't know how much work goes into making theses assets. While the industries that make the tools for creation are getting closer, there is still no "Make Art button" or anything else of the like. To mitigate this, how something feels is far more informative than useless ideas that can't be done.

To that end, I would like to add that there are few things has humbling as watching a person not find that button you thought was so obvious that no one could miss it.

I can’t think of a single non-PC games where inventory management doesn’t suck. It’s almost a universal problem, I honestly, truly believe you’re asking for something that’s way more difficult than you might imagine. I wouldn’t mind some basic sorting filters in the vault (show by slot, element type, archetype, etc). I’ve never played a game that allows you to create loadouts in which that system isn’t a pain in the ass—I straight up think outsourcing that stuff to DIM is the best solution and that working to implement it within the game is a complete waste of resources and time.

I must rebut with the question of; how many of those games have hundreds of guns? Only other game I know of that has that would be Borderlands with their randomized system, but I've not played it, so I can't comment on it.

This idea that, weather you realize it or not, just because its a universal issue in some way means that there is no solution, I reject. I apologize if that's me putting words in your mouth. If there was EVER an opportunity to solve that issue, then why wouldn't it be the team behind the preeminent loot game of the entire industry?

In Destiny we have Champions (which require mods and kit), Match Game modifier (requiring elements of a type), we have DPS options, add clear options, stat buffing options, health regen (or is that exotic only) ... I think there might be others? Eh. Lots of moving parts to switch around, and it helps to know (or to be able to find quickly) what weapon is for what. I don't think... at least I don't recall, of any other game with such a number of game play mechanics to consider.

At the end of the day, I just want to play the game.

Which is EXACTLY WHY I made that distinction of "IN THE GAME". Organization works best as you get it. I should not have to use third party stuff to play the game. That is a failure of core maniacs for, as I say it again, the game with a core mechanic of "loot". I know in the moment why I put something away, and shouldn't have to jump around different screens to do what I need to do. It should not feel like work. The best way to do that is in game.

I am honestly curious about what this means to you. What is it that you want to do IN GAME that you can't? (I'm not looking for "organize my stuff" - I'm looking for what you think would help the average Destiny player not simply vault gear they don't have time to test, if your thoughts could be turned into actual programming.) How are you envisioning using an Xbox controller to organize (i.e. compare and winnow) your gear?

Again: I'm not looking for vague "I want to do this" - you clearly think that this is a thing you should be able to do, in-game. I'm not asking you to program it - I'm asking you what it would look like. I, personally, cannot envision ANY system that I could manage with a controller that would make me happy. You clearly have other ideas, and I would love to hear them.

If you disagree with that, than please bring better ideas. This may help, here is a question I've not seen asked (and even alluded to in my post); do exotic weapons suffer from the same issue? Why or why not?

I told you my 'better idea' - it's to use a mouse and keyboard, and an interface built for them, to do the organizing. It works really well for me. It isn't in-game, and in fact (the way I want it to work) cannot be - and I'm okay with that.

I have absolutely no idea what you're asking with regard to exotics. Can you rephrase your question?

(Also, your flippant "solution" to the Mountaintop-type problem makes me roll my eyes harder than anything Luke Smith has EVER said. But maybe that's just me.)

Sorry you found what would work to be flippant and worthy of rolling your eyes. What do you see that challenges the effectiveness? Is it not why at minimum Bungie goes and disables things when there is an issue? It WORKS! There would be less issue then sunsettings continual muck. Yes, some folks would be peeved on all the effort made towards the weapon would suddenly be for not, as we've seen with sunsetting ad nauseam, hence the "bright dust" or something to that effect.

You think taking something that many, many people love and simply deleting it 'works'?

That doesn't work. That's the lazy, zero-effort way out of this problem, and it introduces a whole host of new problems that are arguably worse than leaving it completely alone. "Some folks would be peeved" - heh.

I did not say it’s impossible, merely that it’s probably very difficult, and, as Claude said, the API makes it possible in DIM and the like. I simply do not think it’s the best use of resources. I genuinely believe that any solution they could come up with to manage hundreds of items in the game would inherently be inferior to just using DIM on a laptop.

No, it’s not perfect, and in principle it shouldn’t be necessary to leave the game to do it, but I just don’t think it’s that big of a deal and I’d rather they spend the resources on other things.

I said it in an earlier reply, but I do think a basic set of filters for the vault could be helpful, in general (although I would still just use DIM in orbit). Let me pick which element the gun uses, let me pick which class of weapons I want to see, hell, let me sort by stuff that has a Champion mod associated this season. Let me sort by two or even three of those filters at once. I’m looking for an Arc weapon that can hit a Champion, for example.

Let me search by perks. I want to see all the stuff I have with Outlaw. Or I want to see all the stuff I have with reloading perks in general.

There is tons of stuff that could be beneficial. I just have a hard time justifying what seems like an incredible amount of work when DIM is right there, and even just those filters would be more cumbersome than just using DIM.

I think the example that clicks best with me is Mountaintop.

In short I believe that balancing mountaintop would either require every other gun to be changed or for mountaintop to simply not work anywhere close to how it does currently.

Sunsetting allows me the ability to use it in control, a random strike, or even the existing dungeons while encouraging me to mix it up during Nightfalls/Empire Hunts/Master Lost Sectors.

They made significant changes to Mountaintop in Beyond Light, though, so doesn’t that disprove your point? Sunsetting literally wasn’t enough, they still had to balance it.

You got me there. So maybe it CAN be done.

Which is EXACTLY WHY I made that distinction of "IN THE GAME". Organization works best as you get it. I should not have to use third party stuff to play the game. That is a failure of core maniacs for, as I say it again, the game with a core mechanic of "loot". I know in the moment why I put something away, and shouldn't have to jump around different screens to do what I need to do. It should not feel like work. The best way to do that is in game.

I am honestly curious about what this means to you. What is it that you want to do IN GAME that you can't? (I'm not looking for "organize my stuff" - I'm looking for what you think would help the average Destiny player not simply vault gear they don't have time to test, if your thoughts could be turned into actual programming.) How are you envisioning using an Xbox controller to organize (i.e. compare and winnow) your gear?

Again: I'm not looking for vague "I want to do this" - you clearly think that this is a thing you should be able to do, in-game. I'm not asking you to program it - I'm asking you what it would look like. I, personally, cannot envision ANY system that I could manage with a controller that would make me happy. You clearly have other ideas, and I would love to hear them.

To do such justice would require time to create a proper mock up, much like was seen for the Ghost UI we have now (which as I recall was a suggestion posted from the Destiny subreddit). TL;DR maybe after 2020. Maybe. That said, I can speak of both one small remedy I currently use (that's mildly expensive to do), an observation, and a complement.

• If I want to remember that "X" weapon is best within PvE or PvP, for whatever it is, I'll masterwork it up to the point where I get the enemy counter. I'll then label it PvP or PvE.
  
• What buttons do you use and don't you use when looking at the gun menu? How about the screen real estate?
  
• Within the game, one of the best UI upgrades Bungie has done is the tool tip that you can get if you hover over a weapon or armor which expands out over when you press the trigger in the character menu.

If you disagree with that, than please bring better ideas. This may help, here is a question I've not seen asked (and even alluded to in my post); do exotic weapons suffer from the same issue? Why or why not?

I told you my 'better idea' - it's to use a mouse and keyboard, and an interface built for them, to do the organizing. It works really well for me. It isn't in-game, and in fact (the way I want it to work) cannot be - and I'm okay with that.

No Wu, that's not an idea. That's status quo. While it is fine that you enjoy it, it also means little to what I ask. Feels like a dodge to me. You could have said nothing on this point, and it would be the same result.

I have absolutely no idea what you're asking with regard to exotics. Can you rephrase your question?

I'd like to clarify my original question instead, hopefully you don't mind.

The original question I asked was; do exotic weapons suffer from the same issue? Why or why not? The context of "the same issue" being about organization through the game interface. To further clarify; "organization" ultimately means in this case "What in this gun makes it worth using over something else?"

Does that help?

(Yes, I know there are far fewer exotics. Duh.)

(Also, your flippant "solution" to the Mountaintop-type problem makes me roll my eyes harder than anything Luke Smith has EVER said. But maybe that's just me.)

Sorry you found what would work to be flippant and worthy of rolling your eyes. What do you see that challenges the effectiveness? Is it not why at minimum Bungie goes and disables things when there is an issue? It WORKS! There would be less issue then sunsettings continual muck. Yes, some folks would be peeved on all the effort made towards the weapon would suddenly be for not, as we've seen with sunsetting ad nauseam, hence the "bright dust" or something to that effect.

You think taking something that many, many people love and simply deleting it 'works'?

That doesn't work. That's the lazy, zero-effort way out of this problem, and it introduces a whole host of new problems that are arguably worse than leaving it completely alone. "Some folks would be peeved" - heh.

I honesty pulled a double take reading this. What a topsy turvy answer.

Topics can get lost in the quote stack, so to reiterate; this part here involves "the Mountaintop-type problem" which I mention in my root post. I do so as a part of my thoughts in how having far better in-game tools to organize our kit would be preferable to sunsetting. Something that would give us a more "play-your-way" agency thing. If I knew I hadn't touched a weapon in two years... I might want to shard it. Things like that, with other examples among my posts here. Yet with this conceptual scenario I presented, folks will still keep the broken/erroneously designed weapons which through the sunsetting mechanic will eventually make whatever it is irreverent. Kit that is so broken, so conceptually overbearing, that to not use it is to lose. Recluse in its original form is also a good example.

That means we all suffer while it gets fixed, or you are forced to use it to fight back. The problem is, first impressions. Once you nerf it to "fix it" to be what it should have been, well... how do I put this? Um... a meat eater who switches to vegan never forgets the savory memories. Does that metaphor make sense? The weapon feels half its former self (the vegan metaphor is over folks... please don't infer), as you'll never forget how fun it was to use at one point while it was overpowered and essential to use. I think that a fair inference so far, yes?

In that case where you have a weapon that has proved to be a problem child that breaks the games established power dynamic... get rid of it. It's what sunsetting is doing anyway, but in my scenario its more a controlled demolition instead of a indiscriminate bloodbath. And while yes, we could go down the rabbit hole and peck at this more, that's what this is about per the original root post. A response to my "what if".

Now then...

If I have read your response correctly Wu, and I might not have as it is admittedly late as I write this, you find this solution I proposed to not be one. Quite the opposite in fact. On top of that, you find this idea within my concept lazy. If I inferred your response to the trolley problem, you'd rather run over all five of those poor folks on the rack, instead of just one. Shoot! Lets back up and get the other guy too! You are defending sunsetting upon this case after all. Thus, "little sally" gets run over too - YOU MONSTER. Also - side note, that would be an AWESOME gun name. lol.

You can clam all you like that it would not work, but you have not proven your point in this concept. In fact, you've provided nothing on how this would be so. How would removing "X" that is causing the problem in the game not work? As I state in the quote above, Bungie doesn't seem to have an issue with it when they do this half way and disable things, though I suppose bringing this as an example might not be fair to the concept, as those trended to be exotics, not legendaries with exotic perks on them.

Everything else you said is irreverent. This is about conceptual results, not feelings. If the end result is a better gameplay experience, I myself don't care how much effort was needed to make it. And infact developer wise; lazy, quick, and good results would be a complement, but I'm starting to digress so I'll end this here.

No Wu, that's not an idea. That's status quo. While it is fine that you enjoy it, it also means little to what I ask. Feels like a dodge to me. You could have said nothing on this point, and it would be the same result.

How is that a dodge? Sometimes the status quo is actually fine. Using DIM is a perfectly valid solution to the problem. On the whole, I’m not convinced that it’s not the best one. Organizing and sorting and loadouts will always be better with a mouse, period. I do not believe any solution Bungie comes up with would be better than just using DIM. I think to call that dodging the question is kind of silly. Bungie solved the problem by letting someone else handle it.

You disagree with that, and that’s fine, but I don’t think it’s fair to say that Claude thinking it’s currently fine is somehow a problem.

I have absolutely no idea what you're asking with regard to exotics. Can you rephrase your question?

I'd like to clarify my original question instead, hopefully you don't mind.

The original question I asked was; do exotic weapons suffer from the same issue? Why or why not? The context of "the same issue" being about organization through the game interface. To further clarify; "organization" ultimately means in this case "What in this gun makes it worth using over something else?"

Isn’t the answer to that obvious? Exotics are by their nature completely distinct, and there aren’t that many of them in the grand scheme. It’s not difficult to remember which ones do which special things.

It’s much more difficult to remember why I have six Trusts. The only way to make that more easy to remember is getting rid of random rolls, and they tried that already.

Which is EXACTLY WHY I made that distinction of "IN THE GAME". Organization works best as you get it. I should not have to use third party stuff to play the game. That is a failure of core maniacs for, as I say it again, the game with a core mechanic of "loot". I know in the moment why I put something away, and shouldn't have to jump around different screens to do what I need to do. It should not feel like work. The best way to do that is in game.

I am honestly curious about what this means to you. What is it that you want to do IN GAME that you can't? (I'm not looking for "organize my stuff" - I'm looking for what you think would help the average Destiny player not simply vault gear they don't have time to test, if your thoughts could be turned into actual programming.) How are you envisioning using an Xbox controller to organize (i.e. compare and winnow) your gear?

Again: I'm not looking for vague "I want to do this" - you clearly think that this is a thing you should be able to do, in-game. I'm not asking you to program it - I'm asking you what it would look like. I, personally, cannot envision ANY system that I could manage with a controller that would make me happy. You clearly have other ideas, and I would love to hear them.

To do such justice would require time to create a proper mock up, much like was seen for the Ghost UI we have now (which as I recall was a suggestion posted from the Destiny subreddit). TL;DR maybe after 2020. Maybe. That said, I can speak of both one small remedy I currently use (that's mildly expensive to do), an observation, and a complement.

• If I want to remember that "X" weapon is best within PvE or PvP, for whatever it is, I'll masterwork it up to the point where I get the enemy counter. I'll then label it PvP or PvE.
  
• What buttons do you use and don't you use when looking at the gun menu? How about the screen real estate?
  
• Within the game, one of the best UI upgrades Bungie has done is the tool tip that you can get if you hover over a weapon or armor which expands out over when you press the trigger in the character menu.

Not sure how this is relevant to the discussion, but you asked, I'll answer:

I use 2 buttons when examining a gun. (I have no idea what you mean by 'gun menu', so I'm hoping that this is what you're talking about.) I use Y, to get details on the gun, left trigger (right trigger for most of you) to view details on the gun, or right trigger (left trigger for most of you) to compare it to the currently equipped gun. Those all work as I expect them to, I don't have any complaints. I do not have need for gun info that is not displayed by these three buttons (except to do things that cannot be done in-game, like compare the current character's version of a particular weapon to similar weapons on other characters or in my vault).

If you disagree with that, than please bring better ideas. This may help, here is a question I've not seen asked (and even alluded to in my post); do exotic weapons suffer from the same issue? Why or why not?

I told you my 'better idea' - it's to use a mouse and keyboard, and an interface built for them, to do the organizing. It works really well for me. It isn't in-game, and in fact (the way I want it to work) cannot be - and I'm okay with that.

No Wu, that's not an idea. That's status quo. While it is fine that you enjoy it, it also means little to what I ask. Feels like a dodge to me. You could have said nothing on this point, and it would be the same result.

This is utterly unfair of you. You made a statement: "The best way to do that is in the game." You followed that statement up with a request: "If you disagree with that, than [sic] please bring better ideas."

You cannot come back after the fact and tell me that if I want the status quo, I shouldn't have responded - I do not agree with your statement, so I will not remain silent, because I think the status quo is better than your idea.

You clearly aren't happy with the status quo - but it is not reasonable of you to suggest that others might have a different opinion.

I have absolutely no idea what you're asking with regard to exotics. Can you rephrase your question?

I'd like to clarify my original question instead, hopefully you don't mind.

The original question I asked was; do exotic weapons suffer from the same issue? Why or why not? The context of "the same issue" being about organization through the game interface. To further clarify; "organization" ultimately means in this case "What in this gun makes it worth using over something else?"

Does that help?

Not really, no. I don't really understand what you're looking for, here. Are you asking whether I feel like it's easy to figure out what makes an exotic special, in-game? (It is; I just mouse over the icon. If the summary provided there isn't enough, I can hit Y for a more complete description.)

Are you asking whether I'd benefit from some sort of tool that told me "here are all the exotics you have (either on this character or in the vault, I guess) that affect melees on the current character" - sure, that would be spectacular. I don't think there's any way to do that in-game, using a controller, that would give me the fine-grained control I'd like if it were implemented, though; either it would be too blunt a tool (maybe it would tell me melee-related, but then what if I wanted to sort by element?) or it would be too hard to use, given the constraints of the tool.

Are you asking something else?

I'm sorry - I'm not trying to be obtuse; I seriously don't get what you're asking.

I killed the rest because we're clearly talking different languages when it comes to weapons like Mountaintop, and things that you're assuming are absolute fact are, in fact, things I consider opinions that I disagree with strongly. We're so far apart on this it's not worth the discussion.

We're so far apart on this it's not worth the discussion.

... Again: I'm not looking for vague "I want to do this" - you clearly think that this is a thing you should be able to do, in-game. I'm not asking you to program it - I'm asking you what it would look like. I, personally, cannot envision ANY system that I could manage with a controller that would make me happy. You clearly have other ideas, and I would love to hear them.

To do such justice would require time to create a proper mock up, much like was seen for the Ghost UI we have now (which as I recall was a suggestion posted from the Destiny subreddit). TL;DR maybe after 2020. Maybe. That said, I can speak of both one small remedy I currently use (that's mildly expensive to do), an observation, and a complement.

• If I want to remember that "X" weapon is best within PvE or PvP, for whatever it is, I'll masterwork it up to the point where I get the enemy counter. I'll then label it PvP or PvE.
  
• What buttons do you use and don't you use when looking at the gun menu? How about the screen real estate?
  
• Within the game, one of the best UI upgrades Bungie has done is the tool tip that you can get if you hover over a weapon or armor which expands out over when you press the trigger in the character menu.

Not sure how this is relevant to the discussion, but you asked, I'll answer:

I use 2 buttons when examining a gun. (I have no idea what you mean by 'gun menu', so I'm hoping that this is what you're talking about.) I use Y, to get details on the gun, left trigger (right trigger for most of you) to view details on the gun, or right trigger (left trigger for most of you) to compare it to the currently equipped gun. Those all work as I expect them to, I don't have any complaints. I do not have need for gun info that is not displayed by these three buttons (except to do things that cannot be done in-game, like compare the current character's version of a particular weapon to similar weapons on other characters or in my vault).

Uh... it was not a direct question. What you had asked of me required more effort then I was able to give in the moment (which is still the case), but I still wanted to give something. Hence my quick and admittedly vague, fill-in-the-blank bullet points in give an idea to just a little of what I see.

TO which I shall add this; Contextual menus. After all, we already have a mouse.

If you disagree with that, than please bring better ideas. This may help, here is a question I've not seen asked (and even alluded to in my post); do exotic weapons suffer from the same issue? Why or why not?

I told you my 'better idea' - it's to use a mouse and keyboard, and an interface built for them, to do the organizing. It works really well for me. It isn't in-game, and in fact (the way I want it to work) cannot be - and I'm okay with that.

No Wu, that's not an idea. That's status quo. While it is fine that you enjoy it, it also means little to what I ask. Feels like a dodge to me. You could have said nothing on this point, and it would be the same result.

This is utterly unfair of you. You made a statement: "The best way to do that is in the game." You followed that statement up with a request: "If you disagree with that, than [sic] please bring better ideas."

You cannot come back after the fact and tell me that if I want the status quo, I shouldn't have responded - I do not agree with your statement, so I will not remain silent, because I think the status quo is better than your idea.

You clearly aren't happy with the status quo - but it is not reasonable of you to suggest that others might have a different opinion.

BUT THAT IS ALREADY A GIVEN WU! Your explanation is circular logic! I'm asking for something new, not the same! THAT IS WHY WE'RE IN THIS BRANCH IN HE FIRST PLACE! You have already established you disagree. To respond again with the same thing is simply silly. You added nothing to the discussion, and only aided to prolonging it for no reason.

I should add, as cheapLEY says in his direct response to me, "Sometimes the status quo is actually fine". And I agree! But in this case you'd have to show the person who states otherwise (should they be rational) how what they propose would be worse then things already are. Rebutting in essence "but I like it" is not a response, or even an idea.

That said... I will concur where if you interpreted it literately word for word, the phrase "If you disagree with that, than please bring better ideas" is potentially errant if one has none to give, as there is "none to give". The "it's fine the way it is". To that end though, I have to wonder why we speak at all, if those whom I speak to lack even a little imagination so that perfection is already attained. What a boring conversation.

I have absolutely no idea what you're asking with regard to exotics. Can you rephrase your question?

I'd like to clarify my original question instead, hopefully you don't mind.

The original question I asked was; do exotic weapons suffer from the same issue? Why or why not? The context of "the same issue" being about organization through the game interface. To further clarify; "organization" ultimately means in this case "What in this gun makes it worth using over something else?"

Does that help?

Not really, no. I don't really understand what you're looking for, here. Are you asking whether I feel like it's easy to figure out what makes an exotic special, in-game? (It is; I just mouse over the icon. If the summary provided there isn't enough, I can hit Y for a more complete description.)

Are you asking whether I'd benefit from some sort of tool that told me "here are all the exotics you have (either on this character or in the vault, I guess) that affect melees on the current character" - sure, that would be spectacular. I don't think there's any way to do that in-game, using a controller, that would give me the fine-grained control I'd like if it were implemented, though; either it would be too blunt a tool (maybe it would tell me melee-related, but then what if I wanted to sort by element?) or it would be too hard to use, given the constraints of the tool.

Are you asking something else?

I'm sorry - I'm not trying to be obtuse; I seriously don't get what you're asking.

I killed the rest because we're clearly talking different languages when it comes to weapons like Mountaintop, and things that you're assuming are absolute fact are, in fact, things I consider opinions that I disagree with strongly. We're so far apart on this it's not worth the discussion.

Shame, but not surprising considering the often fatiguing nature of preaching philosophy on the internet. Especially in this year. Just don't make the mistake on the thinking preached as my gospel, as it is not. It was made per the confines and needs of the scenario built. The what if. Do not let it weigh your mind of me, should it at all.

I'm sorry this discussion came upon such extreme for you. Apologies.

As for the exotic stuff... well what do you know! Let's check out my response to cheapLEYs post! You inadvertently linked each other! :D

No Wu, that's not an idea. That's status quo. While it is fine that you enjoy it, it also means little to what I ask. Feels like a dodge to me. You could have said nothing on this point, and it would be the same result.

How is that a dodge? Sometimes the status quo is actually fine. Using DIM is a perfectly valid solution to the problem. On the whole, I’m not convinced that it’s not the best one. Organizing and sorting and loadouts will always be better with a mouse, period. I do not believe any solution Bungie comes up with would be better than just using DIM. I think to call that dodging the question is kind of silly. Bungie solved the problem by letting someone else handle it.

You disagree with that, and that’s fine, but I don’t think it’s fair to say that Claude thinking it’s currently fine is somehow a problem.

Will speak of this more in response on Wu's post below.

I have absolutely no idea what you're asking with regard to exotics. Can you rephrase your question?

I'd like to clarify my original question instead, hopefully you don't mind.

The original question I asked was; do exotic weapons suffer from the same issue? Why or why not? The context of "the same issue" being about organization through the game interface. To further clarify; "organization" ultimately means in this case "What in this gun makes it worth using over something else?"

Isn’t the answer to that obvious? Exotics are by their nature completely distinct, and there aren’t that many of them in the grand scheme. It’s not difficult to remember which ones do which special things.

It’s much more difficult to remember why I have six Trusts. The only way to make that more easy to remember is getting rid of random rolls, and they tried that already.

BOOM! Yes! EXACTLY! I wanted to read some one else saying the words "It’s not difficult to remember". I wanted to be sure it wasn't just me. Thank you cheapLEY.

This example is exactly how proper organization in-game would fix the bloat problem sunsetting is supposed fix, but without all the nonsense sunsetting has brought. Shall continue to bring, even. Know your tools for which you wield! How many of you with wood based workshops have all your kit laying in a cluttered pile on the floor? Or does it look (in some way) like this...?

Side track for a moment; Keep inmind there are millions of people playing this game with new "kinderguardians" coming in (apparently) all the time. We, the hardcore fanbase & Bungie, expect each of them to go on D.I.M? Or any OTHER of the fantastic third party options? Where are they supposed to find that out? To a external third party? If they have the means then sure I suppose, they will find out through search and use it, but it just feels wrong. You can not expect an end user to do that! To care that much. To turn that play into effort to play. That is not a solid user experience in my view. Hopefully not just my view.

As I said, I sidetracked. Back to ... "This is exactly being able to organize would fix."

In Destiny, we have (or at least had) many hundreds of legendary guns. For what purpose? Why? Well, the direct answer is loot and the chase of this and that. But what if I bring that question of guns into context of our vaults? Why? For what purpose? For what ends do I hold this for? For me, I can not speak to how many times I've asked myself this question as I tried to root out what I could get rid of in the unwilling rats nest that is my vault. Upon the process of all this, I've come to a realization after playing this game for so long. I know when I get something and I look at those stats and perks; keep or shard. Shard is easy, out of sight and mind.

Keep through? Oh... keep is a pain in the ass. I'll know in that moment why I want to keep something, but I also know I will forget. Alas, Destiny doesn't do post-it notes.

So... cheapLEY doesn't have this issue I'm about to mention (seeing as he is the smartest Destiny player in the forum), but the lot of us probably have multiple weapons in our vaults that are basically the same weapon in use case. The DPS. The add clear. So on. Why? What differentiates one weapon from another? What makes it worth keeping? Figuring such things out is a pain, as to solve it requires a person to stop playing the game, and sort all of it out. And suddenly this game about amazing gun play and momentary power fantasies, is suddenly about spreadsheets and grade calls. (No offense for those of you who are all about the spreadsheet life.)

Or hey! You can just forgo all that, not care, and shoot with whatever. As possible as that is, I don't think that is how this game was built to be played. There is alot of hard work put into the little nuances of this games play, and I'd like to appreciate it, if the game didn't fight the ability to do so in such an amount sometimes.

"...Smith used shopping for milk as an example. When you go to buy milk at your local store, you always look for the latest expiration date you can. It doesn’t matter if you’re going to drink the entire gallon when you get home; you’ll almost always pick an expiration date 10 days away over one that’s nine days away."

Yes, this is true. People do this because it sucks when milk goes sour.

I lol'd!

I guess the question is, would cold, delicious milk that never expired better serve humanity, or better serve milk farmers?

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