It's harder than you think (Destiny)

by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, May 01, 2014, 15:46 (3651 days ago) @ Kermit

I think you're granting that Cody's definition of fun is the correct definition, Zackdark.

To recap: unless I'm mistaken, Cody views investment systems as distractions for developers who could otherwise work on making the game more fun.

The problem with this view is some people, perhaps even many people, see investment systems as fun, too. They don't see them as mutually exclusive from game play fun. For those people, they are not continuing to play the game past the point of having fun. They're having fun with the mechanics, the gun play, the puzzles, or whatever else, and the investment system. The game play can be just as fun as, say, the first Halo's, and still have an investment system. Cody might be so turned off by the idea of an investment system that its presence keeps him from enjoying aspects of the game he'd otherwise like, though. Is that the issue, Cody?

Everything you ask your player to do is a part of your game! So it's stupid that investment systems are labeled as something separate, when in fact they are just elements of the game.

You might as well say that the pistol in Halo 1 is an investment system, because if you put in time and get good at it, you can 3 shot kill.

The difference between a good investment system (like the pistol), and a bad one (often like character levels or loot), is that one is based on YOUR progression through skills you gain and knowledge you learn, versus things your avatar has or is.

Now, are all loot systems bad? Are all character leveling systems bad? No of course not. But the good ones never described themselves as investment systems. Nobody talked about character progression in Deus Ex as an investment system. Nobody talked about the weapon upgrade system in Vanquish as an investment system. Nobody talked about the acquisition of weapons and items in Super Metroid as an investment system.

The reason why, is because they are just a part of the game, and they make the game better. The systems are fun to play with.

The fact that Bungie, and others, treat their 'investment systems' as separate from the game itself (or the 'gameplay' if you must), just shows that they are not viewed as part of the fun of the game. If they were, the term would never be used.