Destiny: Wot I finally think (Destiny)
Destiny is strange because it is less than the sum of its parts. It's got some really good parts, but ultimately you have to ask yourself during the time you actually play it, how much bad is in between? The unfortunate fact is that if you play the game beyond level 20, most of the time you spend with this game is worthless, tedious, and boring.
What's right with Destiny is almost everything. The shooting feels fantastic, and every weapon has a place unlike a lot of games where there are clear bests for every situation. Like the original Halo, each weapon in Destiny fills a role and has weaknesses. Precision is rewarded with 3X or 5X damage depending on the weapon. So you get things like the hand canon, which can drop many enemies in one shot if aimed correctly, but if not it will kill slower than the autorifle, and it is not good for large mobs but rather smaller packs. The AI seems pretty advanced, and will run when they are weak, and charge when YOU are weak. The art direction is some of the best I've seen.
The PvP is very fun, however even in vanilla non iron banner mode what you do outside of it has way too big an effect on your ability to play. While weapon attack power and levels aren't taken into consideration, everything else is. What weapons you acquire, their stats like range, impact, stability, etc, the weapon's learned abilities, your learned abilities. I got a sniper rifle that gives me radar while scoped, AND makes me invisible. How do you think that's not an advantage over someone who doesn't have that? I'm okay in theory with it being the way it is, but it also needs a mode where there are loadouts everyone has access to where you bring nothing in, and select your character class during matchmaking. Like the equivalent of the 'Arcade' mode in Gran Turismo where nothing from outside that mode matters but your own skill.
Also don't fucking make salvage weekend only. All playlists should be active all the time, there is no reason otherwise.
But all that's right is undermined with all that's wrong. I would say that overall the biggest things wrong with Destiny are the investment system, the story, and less significantly the level design. The investment system is the biggest elephant in the room, which ruins so much of Destiny that if it were not included the game would be an instant classic. Nothing about the investment system does anything but get in your way of enjoying the game. Awesome content like the raid is locked out if you are low level or have bad weapons, when it should be available for at least everyone to try. The barrier to entry should be game skill, not random numbers and time spent.
What we had for free in the past, we have to waste time for now. Halo let you choose your difficulty from the start, but Destiny gives mission difficulties levels, and doesn't even let you play until you are within a few levels of the requirement. If you want to play on hard, you have to grind away to get up to level 26-28. Going from 28-30 is literally impossible without gear from the raid, seeing as how those pieces have more defense (and thus light) upgrades. All the modifiers and skulls from Halo you had access to are gone. No longer can you choose what challenge to take on yourself by flipping on a combination of skulls, but are instead relegated to what Bungie gives you in the weekly and nightfall strikes. The raid itself, which is a blast, has a huge barrier to entry beyond simply finding 5 other good people. Even just upgrading your Legendary weapons to be formidable in the raid is incredibly tedious, with common and rare resource collection.
There is also a bug apparently where Ascendant Motes are not in the game, making FWC armor impossible to fully upgrade. I imagine this will be fixed, or their upgrades changed to require ascendant shards instead.
I think that's mitigated somewhat by the fact that there is nothing substantial to do other than the raid after level 20. When Bungie said that the game begins at level 20, I imagined 1-20 being the warm up / tutorial, and 20 to be the meat of the game. I imagined tons of cool, unique missions to do now that we are familiar with the game. There's nothing. Everything is just a repeat on a higher difficulty, which you should have been able to select at any time anyway like every other game ever made. I don't know why Bungie is obsessed with having players play this game over a long period of time, rather than creating something compelling that lasts as long as it lasts without filler. After doing the raid, my thoughts are now that I can finally put this damn game down, and from now on just do the parts that are fun on occasion. From now till december will be a much more enjoyable, but significantly less frequent experience. That's the way it should have been from the beginning.
Still, overall if you break down the time you spend playing destiny, most of it is doing stupid stuff.
In terms of story, I think most people are on the same page in that what was presented in the game was extremely weak, and the grimoire didn't fill that gap, nor should it have been expected to. When people try to make the excuse that it's supposed to play out over ten years, that doesn't hold water. Each aspect and each 'episode' of the story needs to be good and substantial. If over the next ten years all you get each time is what we got with Destiny, or more likely less in each DLC, then it doesn't matter.
It's fine to have mysterious elements and some mystery in your story, but it's not okay to do what Bungie did. One of the big problems is that very little felt connected to other things. Cosmodrome and the moon felt like completely different dimensions. We go from disconnected mission to disconnected mission, often with seemingly important information that is then promptly forgotten about - Raspitin, what the hive are doing on the moon, who this doctor the AI thinks you are, etc. There is a severe case of amnesia in the story, and when we run missions they should be critical, and more importantly propulsive of the story. One should move us to the next aspect of the story because of the actions of our character. Like Halo 1. Instead, we select a mission knowing nothing about it, a blurb comes up explaining that intelligence found blah blah whatever.
There's also a lack of questions. Someone here mentioned they found it odd that your guardian never asks what the hell is going on. This is true. You've been dead for 300 years, and even your ghost says "You're going to see things you won't understand". A lot of times stories with strange unfamiliar settings have characters who are out of their element, since other characters explaining how things work to another character is a believable way for them to convey to the audience what's going on. That's why in Inception you have Ariadne, so that Cobb can explain the rules of dream infiltration to her since she is new, and by extension the audience. So when you have a guardian long dead, that's the perfect way to get the exposition out of the way naturally. Instead, the speaker tells you that he COULD tell you all these tales, but he won't.
Similarly, the stuff with the Exo stranger onward is also confusing as to exactly how it fits into thing. Why exactly is the traveler doomed if the heart isn't destroyed? Why if that's the case doesn't the speaker send an army of guardians to destroy it? Why is the Queen and her brother being mysterious for no fucking reason? So much is just not contextualized correctly, that the disconnect is as wide as the Hellmouth.
Another problem with the story is that the world is not set up well. I think I made the comparison to it being like the Wizard of Oz if Dorothy just stepped right out of her house into the Emerald City instead of making the journey. We need to see this world, not just be told about it. I get that everything is supposed to be dead after the collapse, but we never see the city as contrast. The very thing we are fighting to protect, you don't get to experience. All parts of this game feel like tiny little self contained places, as opposed to a big connected universe. The reef exists literally only as a throne room. Small pieces that don't feel connected. Individual threads not woven together to make a tapestry. That is how Destiny feels.
Level design is hugely important in an FPS, and I've already talked about why Destiny has lackluster level design, and how to make strikes more replayable. The raid in particular exposed how the game could be throwing much more interesting stuff at you. I'm not saying everything should be like the raid, because it's hugely demanding and having the entire game require 6 player co-op at all times is unfeasible, but I feel like there should be some middle ground. There should be some 3 player missions that require a little bit of teamwork and outside the box thinking, as should there be a more diverse experience if you are playing alone. The jokes about how Destiny is a game where you go to a place, hack it with your ghost, then defend it are really mostly true. You also sometimes kill a boss. There's so much that could have been done with the game beyond what was there, that it's just a shame whoever designed the raid didn't also create some cool story mission objectives and scenarios.
We are at the point where I can finally stop grinding, and I play destiny for fun again, albeit infrequently. It shouldn't have come to that though - that should have been the experience from the get go. Literally the only reason I'm going to buy the DLC is because I'm told there is a new raid with every pack. Otherwise, I'm not sure I'd rush out.
Overall a very bad good game, and Bungie's worst since Oni.
Good points! *minor SP*
In terms of story, I think most people are on the same page in that what was presented in the game was extremely weak, and the grimoire didn't fill that gap, nor should it have been expected to. When people try to make the excuse that it's supposed to play out over ten years, that doesn't hold water. Each aspect and each 'episode' of the story needs to be good and substantial. If over the next ten years all you get each time is what we got with Destiny, or more likely less in each DLC, then it doesn't matter.
So much this. There is absolutely nothing wrong with introducing elements and arcs in your plot that you will flesh out over a planned series. However, if none of that can find itself contained within a standalone product then it doesn't need to be in the limelight. I don't want to hear about this or that unless it has a real significance on this story I'm invested in right now. So what if the Hive are planning on invading Earth? The story itself cared little about that past the Moon. That's a pretty big thing. It had little to do with what we experienced at the end.
Similarly, the stuff with the Exo stranger onward is also confusion as to exactly how it fits into thing. Why exactly is the traveler doomed if the heart isn't destroyed? Why if that's the case doesn't the speaker send an army of guardians to destroy it? Why is the Queen and her brother being mysterious for no fucking reason? So much is just not contextualized correctly, that the disconnect is as wide as the Hellmouth.
Pretty much. It assumes that we know what's going on, and worse, that we'll want to be invested in how all these things play out in the long run. If Bungie was banking on convincing a person who only wanted to play this game to stick with the series, they failed.
All parts of this game feel like tiny little self contained places, as opposed to a big connected universe. The reef exists literally only as a throne room. Small pieces that don't feel connected. Individual threads not woven together to make a tapestry. That is how Destiny feels.
Cosmodrome seemed like a long ass tutorial for Destiny. Little of it seemed to have any bearing on the rest of the story besides getting you a jumpship, a warpdrive, and showing how pervy the Stranger is.
Good points! *minor SP*
Cosmodrome seemed like a long ass tutorial for Destiny. Little of it seemed to have any bearing on the rest of the story besides getting you a jumpship, a warpdrive, and showing how pervy the Stranger is.
500 bucks for Leviathan to make a painting of the speaker peering through a little kid's bedroom window as they tell their 'stories'. Let's kickstart this.
Good points! *minor SP*
500 bucks for Leviathan to make a painting of the speaker peering through a little kid's bedroom window as they tell their 'stories'. Let's kickstart this.
I'm still waiting on those maps he promised. :P
Destiny: Wot I finally think
What we had for free in the past, we have to waste time for now. Halo let you choose your difficulty from the start, but Destiny gives mission difficulties levels, and doesn't even let you play until you are within a few levels of the requirement. If you want to play on hard, you have to grind away to get up to level 26-28. Going from 28-30 is literally impossible without gear from the raid, seeing as how those pieces have more defense (and thus light) upgrades. All the modifiers and skulls from Halo you had access to are gone. No longer can you choose what challenge to take on yourself by flipping on a combination of skulls, but are instead relegated to what Bungie gives you in the weekly and nightfall strikes. The raid itself, which is a blast, has a huge barrier to entry beyond simply finding 5 other good people. Even just upgrading your Legendary weapons to be formidable in the raid is incredibly tedious, with common and rare resource collection.
My biggest frustration is that I can't play story missions with whomever I want because of a difference in our levels. A friend of mine and I had to stop playing through the story the other night because he'd gotten too far ahead of me. Another friend had to go out of town for a few days, and now he's too far behind. I understand why it's the way it is, but I'll be glad when I catch up with most folks on my friends list.
There is also a bug apparently where Ascendant Motes are not in the game, making FWC armor impossible to fully upgrade. I imagine this will be fixed, or their upgrades changed to require ascendant shards instead.
In terms of story, I think most people are on the same page in that what was presented in the game was extremely weak, and the grimoire didn't fill that gap, nor should it have been expected to. When people try to make the excuse that it's supposed to play out over ten years, that doesn't hold water. Each aspect and each 'episode' of the story needs to be good and substantial. If over the next ten years all you get each time is what we got with Destiny, or more likely less in each DLC, then it doesn't matter.
I agree. I hope that the DLC is meatier, and does a better job of completing this game before the inevitable sequel. (I'm assumptive about the "end" of the game. I still haven't gone to the Black Garden--the shame!)
It's fine to have mysterious elements and some mystery in your story, but it's not okay to do what Bungie did. One of the big problems is that very little felt connected to other things. Cosmodrome and the moon felt like completely different dimensions. We go from disconnected mission to disconnected mission, often with seemingly important information that is then promptly forgotten about - Raspitin, what the hive are doing on the moon, who this doctor the AI thinks you are, etc. There is a severe case of amnesia in the story, and when we run missions they should be critical, and more importantly propulsive of the story. One should move us to the next aspect of the story because of the actions of our character. Like Halo 1. Instead, we select a mission knowing nothing about it, a blurb comes up explaining that intelligence found blah blah whatever.
There's also a lack of questions. Someone here mentioned they found it odd that your guardian never asks what the hell is going on. This is true. You've been dead for 300 years, and even your ghost says "You're going to see things you won't understand". A lot of times stories with strange unfamiliar settings have characters who are out of their element, since other characters explaining how things work to another character is a believable way for them to convey to the audience what's going on. That's why in Inception you have Ariadne, so that Cobb can explain the rules of dream infiltration to her since she is new, and by extension the audience. So when you have a guardian long dead, that's the perfect way to get the exposition out of the way naturally. Instead, the speaker tells you that he COULD tell you all these tales, but he won't.
Yeah, Guardian school. Military schools teach history. They don't just do drills. The Grimoire cards are pretty awesome, though.
Similarly, the stuff with the Exo stranger onward is also confusion as to exactly how it fits into thing. Why exactly is the traveler doomed if the heart isn't destroyed? Why if that's the case doesn't the speaker send an army of guardians to destroy it? Why is the Queen and her brother being mysterious for no fucking reason? So much is just not contextualized correctly, that the disconnect is as wide as the Hellmouth.
Another problem with the story is that the world is not set up well. I think I made the comparison to it being like the Wizard of Oz if Dorothy just stepped right out of her house into the Emerald City instead of making the journey. We need to see this world, not just be told about it. I get that everything is supposed to be dead after the collapse, but we never see the city as contrast. The very thing we are fighting o protect, you don;t get to experience. All parts of this game feel like tiny little self contained places, as opposed to a big connected universe. The reef exists literally only as a throne room. Small pieces that don't feel connected. Individual threads not woven together to make a tapestry. That is how Destiny feels.
Level design is hugely important in an FPS, and I've already talked about why Destiny has lackluster level design, and how to make strikes more replayable. The raid in particular exposed how the game could be throwing much more interesting stuff at you. I'm not saying everything should be like the raid, because it's hugely demanding and having the entire game require 6 player co-op at all times is unfeasible, but I feel like there should be some middle ground. There should be some 3 player missions that require a little bit of teamwork and outside the box thinking, as should there be a more diverse experience if you are playing alone. The jokes about how Destiny is a game where you go to a place, hack it with your ghost, then defend it are really mostly true. You also sometimes kill a boss. There's so much that could have been done with the game beyond what was there, that it's just a shame whoever designed the raid didn't also create some cool story mission objectives and scenarios.
They're reading this, I'm sure. Let's hope the mission objectives become more interesting. Even for patrol, when I first played the beta, I assumed when someone from the Tower asked me to do something, that there would be some follow up with that person next time I went there. This is something I hope they improve.
We are at the point where I can finally stop grinding, and I play destiny for fun again, albeit infrequently. It shouldn't have come to that though - that should have been the experience from the get go. Literally the only reason I'm going to buy the DLC is because I'm told there is a new raid with every pack. Otherwise, I'm not sure I'd rush out.
Overall a very bad good game, and Bungie's worst since Oni.
I liked Oni.
Many excellent points, Cody.
Good points! *minor SP*
"If you find your resolve to defeat the Dahkness wavering, Gah-dian, take a moment to think of the children. Think of all the frightened children of our City. Cherish their fear. Relish it. Draw strength from it. Allow it to harden your heart and revive your murderous spirit... that's what I would do..."
Bill Nighy makes everything creepy.
Good points! *minor SP*
"If you find your resolve to defeat the Dahkness wavering, Gah-dian, take a moment to think of the children. Think of all the frightened children of our City. Cherish their fear. Relish it. Draw strength from it. Allow it to harden your heart and revive your murderous spirit... that's what I would do..."
Bill Nighy makes everything creepy.
I love Bill Nighy
Good points! *minor SP*
So do I. He is the master of being unsettling in that unconscious, impossible-to-put-your-finger-on-what's-wrong-with-him way.
I'm calling it now. Destiny 4's final boss will be the Speaker, as you finally realize that he has been corrupted by the Dahkness and must be destroyed. Dude's gonna shoot lasers out of his mask slits and drop-kick you from above while leaping through the air like a supersonic ninja at 100mph in an epic battle for the fate of the Traveler from within the Traveler itself. And you have to kill him with time manipulation because he's just too fast to take down in boring old snail-time.
Good points! *minor SP*
So do I. He is the master of being unsettling in that unconscious, impossible-to-put-your-finger-on-what's-wrong-with-him way.
I'm calling it now. Destiny 4's final boss will be the Speaker, as you finally realize that he has been corrupted by the Dahkness and must be destroyed. Dude's gonna shoot lasers out of his mask slits and drop-kick you from above while leaping through the air like a supersonic ninja at 100mph in an epic battle for the fate of the Traveler from within the Traveler itself. And you have to kill him with time manipulation because he's just too fast to take down in boring old snail-time.
That sounds rad as hell. If we can work the sword mechanic back in there somewhere, we have a winner.
Good points! *minor SP*
That sounds rad as hell. If we can work the sword mechanic back in there somewhere, we have a winner.
"Oh, you thought Joyeuse was going to be an AI?"
More thoughts about the story
+1 to everything you said, Cody. I'd also like to weigh in on why I think the story is such a disappointment.
The wonderfully artistic environments in Destiny almost write a story of their own and yet Bungie still wasn't able to make what they wrote feel connected to the world in any sort of cohesive manner. Or even connected to the story, itself.
When I first saw the E3 demo of going into/through the wall, I imagined that this was further into the game and was going to have significant meaning to the player. Like they would have been weak and desperate while outside the wall in the first bit of gameplay and that it was really going to be conveyed to the player how much destruction humanity had faced. I thought you'd be able to see the Traveler off in the distance (and almost always in front of you), as well as the massive wall protecting the city, and really get to feel the story.
Then you'd get to the wall and see how massive it is and then go inside and see how massive it is from that perspective, too (that one part where your ghost turns on the lights for the first time felt like it was just the beginning to the massiveness you'd get to see). And you'd work really hard to get through the wall and lay eyes on the city for the first time and see the tower and know that's where you want to go.
And this would have been just the very beginning of great game and a great, 10-year experience. I imagined many more things like this, based just on the concept art and initial tidbits Bungie fed us. I thought the story was going to help showcase the fantastic art and, in turn, the environments would help fuel a story of discovery and wonderment. I though it was going to a really good job of standing as its own game setting the franchise up for some great games/DLC/etc in the future. (I think some people are still in this "it's going to be so good over the next 10 years" phase because they haven't let the actuality of the released game set in yet.)
I never once even considered how disconnected the story, let alone the environments, would feel. It's so disconnected that it's easy for me to say that Destiny is one of the least immersive games I've ever played. And that's quite an impressive accomplishment, considering how much immersion the art alone provides, not to mention the FPS mechanics.
The game I hoped Destiny to be—the game Bungie advertised Destiny to be—had so much potential. It still wouldn't have been considered a good game if they hadn't over-advertised it, but at least the reality of Destiny would have been much more palatable. Such a disappointment.
Destiny: Wot I finally think
Even for patrol, when I first played the beta, I assumed when someone from the Tower asked me to do something, that there would be some follow up with that person next time I went there. This is something I hope they improve.
I 100% agree. I really thought that the patrol missions we got during the beta were just placeholders. I'm really disappointed that the only missions are "Kill x number bad guys," "Kill specific bad guy," "Go look at this thing," and "Collect x number of glowing pyramids. This time we'll call them...shock cores. Yeah, let's go with that."
I'd even be happy with the typical MMO fetch quest at this point. Something along the lines of "Hey, Guardian. I had a bit of a run-in with the Hive last time I was around Archer's Line. Long story short, I got bitch-slapped by an Ogre and dropped my very favorite rifle. If you wouldn't mind putting a bullet in his head and getting Vera back for me, I'd much appreciate it."
I'm really enjoying the game overall, but this is one of a handful of things that just seemed lazy and it bugs me every time I have to do patrols to complete a bounty.
-Disciple
Destiny: Wot I finally think
Indeed - the patrol missions are..embarrassing. Seriously, I cringe whenever I pick one up, and the only reason I do them is to complete a related bounty. That's not fun; that's a pointless bounty getting me to complete 6 pointless missions.
It's especially pathetic when you complete one of those missions, "I'll make sure the Speaker hears about this". Pfft the Speaker doesn't even care; the game itself doesn't even care.
Destiny: Wot I finally think
Absolutely agree with all of this.
A lot of what we do in the game; be it story or whatever, feels like it has little purpose or meaning.
Seriously, I was more engaged in the Battlefield 3 and 4 stories than this and those were both terrible campaigns.
Good points! *minor SP*
Gentlemen, I think we just might be onto something.
Destiny: Wot I finally think
Good post, Cody. You've expressed what I was not able to concerning the story. When it ended, I was not impressed with what I experienced.
Having said that, I'm still having a ton of fun with the game. I'll be playing this for a while, methinks.
- CC
Destiny: Wot I finally think
Indeed - the patrol missions are..embarrassing. Seriously, I cringe whenever I pick one up, and the only reason I do them is to complete a related bounty. That's not fun; that's a pointless bounty getting me to complete 6 pointless missions.
It's especially pathetic when you complete one of those missions, "I'll make sure the Speaker hears about this". Pfft the Speaker doesn't even care; the game itself doesn't even care.
I like the leader kill ones. They sometimes lead you to interesting places and give you a slightly different encounter there than usual.
Destiny: Wot I finally think
Good thoughts, I agree with a lot of this and have enjoyed the game thoroughly. Once the grind is over, the game is a lot more fun.
I do wish they had more unique content (or locations) for high level players that is separate or new...
What comes with the DLC will REALLY matter if Bungie really wants to redeem the not so stellar launch. Sadly, I'm not expecting much.
Destiny: Wot I finally think
Indeed - the patrol missions are..embarrassing. Seriously, I cringe whenever I pick one up, and the only reason I do them is to complete a related bounty. That's not fun; that's a pointless bounty getting me to complete 6 pointless missions.
It's especially pathetic when you complete one of those missions, "I'll make sure the Speaker hears about this". Pfft the Speaker doesn't even care; the game itself doesn't even care.
I like the leader kill ones. They sometimes lead you to interesting places and give you a slightly different encounter there than usual.
These also give the most rep :-)
Destiny: Wot I finally think
Indeed - the patrol missions are..embarrassing. Seriously, I cringe whenever I pick one up, and the only reason I do them is to complete a related bounty. That's not fun; that's a pointless bounty getting me to complete 6 pointless missions.
It's especially pathetic when you complete one of those missions, "I'll make sure the Speaker hears about this". Pfft the Speaker doesn't even care; the game itself doesn't even care.
I like the leader kill ones. They sometimes lead you to interesting places and give you a slightly different encounter there than usual.
These also give the most rep :-)
And when you complete 50 you get bonus materials for doing missions.
Destiny: Wot I finally think
I like the leader kill ones. They sometimes lead you to interesting places and give you a slightly different encounter there than usual.
These also give the most rep :-)
Yeah, 25 rep compared to the 10 for all the others I believe. Only figured that out a couple of days ago, myself.
I don't like this
When was the last time people so unanimously agreed with Cody? We've already given him too much power.
I don't like this
When was the last time people so unanimously agreed with Cody? We've already given him too much power.
#codywasright
Tweet it loud and proud.
I don't like this
I started it by suggesting that Cody may turn the Schooly Was Right into a Cody Was Right. I also started the Schooly Was Right when he was right about Halo 4. It's what I do. Sorry. :P
Destiny: Wot I finally think
Great post. Hard to disagree with anything. The greatest discord for me is the "the game begins at level 20" statement. As you have mentioned before, this is grossly untrue.
I'd put forth the game ends at level 20. The rest is rinse, repeat.
Now, in and of itself, I do enjoy hopping in and playing a bit with my friends. Really, this is the best part. But I will not grind by myself, will not grind (endure?) Crucible, will not grind to make it into an event (i.e. VoG) - regardless of how cool.
It might be interesting to get new gear if (IF!) there were uncharted horizons to see, or wonders to uncover, or enemies/sections I just couldn't clear. I should grind a ton to get more gear to level up and then....grind a ton to get more gear?
The Vanguard raids are the closest thing to single-player content I'm still interested in. They're quick, efficient, and do a good job of creating positive experiences for online randoms.
It's pretty, it's fun, but it's so shallow. Again I ask: where did all the effort go? I'm asking seriously. Multi-platforms? Character creation? Investment? Graphics?
Pretty pieces here and there.
Destiny: Wot I finally think
I like the leader kill ones. They sometimes lead you to interesting places and give you a slightly different encounter there than usual.
They would be a lot better if they scaled with your level.
For instance, I got an Ogre assassination last night and had to travel accross the Moon to get to him. I figured it would be more fun that collecting Skank kills so I took the time to drive all the way over. Once I got to him I fired one single sniper shot into his face and the mission ended. Didn't have to kill anything else. Lack-luster to the extreme.
I don't like this
When was the last time people so unanimously agreed with Cody? We've already given him too much power.
There's a weird rallying call around Cody for people who are dissatisfied with the game. It's weird. Doesn't feel like the right order of things...
Questions we could get answered
I would be interested to see some of this asked in a Bungie weekly mail sack. I think a lot of us are legitimately confused as to why Bungie made some of the decisions they did. We should try to come up with a list of questions, phrased in a non insulting way, to figure out what their thinking was. Something like:
- "What motivated the decision to keep the story narrative light?"
- "Will Rasputin or other characters play larger roles in later games, or should we expect the same level of character involvement?"
- "Was it ever planned to have new content (missions) open up after reaching level 20?"
- "Are we going to see more of what Guardians are fighting to protect (City/people) in future expansions?"
- "In what way does limiting gametypes to weekends enhance the game?"
- "Are custom PvP matches coming the the future?" (I want to know if they don't want to support it anymore)
- "Why can't I bring my low-leveled friends on harder missions?"
- "Do you plan to allow more customization of missions in the future, such as adding modifiers/skulls?"
I don't think many of these would be selected for a mail sack . . . but still, might be worth a try.
I don't like this
When was the last time people so unanimously agreed with Cody? We've already given him too much power.
There's a weird rallying call around Cody for people who are dissatisfied with the game. It's weird. Doesn't feel like the right order of things...
Yeah, when's the last time Cody was dissatisfied with a game?
satisfiedCody.isnotcanon.net
Questions we could get answered
[*]"Do you plan to allow more customization of missions in the future, such as adding modifiers/skulls?"
Nightfall strikes.
Questions we could get answered
Nightfall strikes.
Oh, are they all that customizable? I just thought there would be a couple options (lvl 18, 20, etc.) with varying modifiers. I haven't seen much customization options.
Questions we could get answered
I don't know. I didn't get the impression that they were very customizable.
More customization in general would be welcome in Destiny, but I wouldn't count on it. Customization goes against the curated player experience that Bungie seems set on delivering.
Questions we could get answered
I would be interested to see some of this asked in a Bungie weekly mail sack. I think a lot of us are legitimately confused as to why Bungie made some of the decisions they did. We should try to come up with a list of questions, phrased in a non insulting way, to figure out what their thinking was. Something like:
Carnac the Magnificient sez*:
- "What motivated the decision to keep the story narrative light?"
This is just the beginning of the story.
[*]"Will Rasputin or other characters play larger roles in later games, or should we expect the same level of character involvement?"
Rasputin absolutely will be back. (Count on this one.)
[*]"Was it ever planned to have new content (missions) open up after reaching level 20?"
Yes, it is planned.
[*]"Are we going to see more of what Guardians are fighting to protect (City/people) in future expansions?"
Absolutely.
[*]"In what way does limiting gametypes to weekends enhance the game?"
Absence makes the heart grow fonder.
[*]"Are custom PvP matches coming the the future?" (I want to know if they don't want to support it anymore)
Yes.
[*]"Why can't I bring my low-leveled friends on harder missions?"
It wouldn't be that much fun for them.
[*]"Do you plan to allow more customization of missions in the future, such as adding modifiers/skulls?"
Definitely.
[/list]
I don't think many of these would be selected for a mail sack . . . but still, might be worth a try.
*this is a combination of how I think they'd answer these and what I hope is true.
I don't like this
I have some disappointments, but that's not the same as being dissatisfied. And I can agree with some of what Cody is saying, and even give him credit for making good points throughout, but that doesn't mean I fully agree with them or think his word is the final one. Maybe I just don't care about what he cares about, but respect that he does, and I choose not to nitpick everywhere I could.
Questions we could get answered
[*]"In what way does limiting gametypes to weekends enhance the game?"
Is this not obvious? It focuses player attention and ensures a healthy population if it's time-limited.
Compare the wild popularity of weekend DEXP playlists in Halo 3 with the more than 2 dozen struggling lists in Reach.
I don't like this
Yeah, in my mind I actually put you in the anti-Cody camp. I consider myself kind of in between.
Questions we could get answered
Nightfalls are not customizable, you just get more modifiers. I'm not even sure the level is customizable, I think it's set at a hard 28.
Questions we could get answered
*this is a combination of how I think they'd answer these and what I hope is true.
Sadly, I think you are exactly right. I wonder if we could craft questions that would preclude answers that don't address the actual core of the questions.
For instance my question about "Will we see more about the city/people we are protecting" is really asking whether or not they think that kind of thing is valuable to the game. The only evidence we have so far is that they do not think it is valuable, but on the other hand that stuff may have just been cut for time constraints. Same with the customization of missions.
And my question about allowing low-level friends to play is really asking if they are going to continue mandating what we can play based on what they think will be fun. I would love to take on an insane challenge with a friend who is higher level than me, and I want to know if Bungie would consider allowing that. And if not, why?
Questions we could get answered
Is this not obvious? It focuses player attention and ensures a healthy population if it's time-limited.
The question clearly isn't just asking for any positives to that system. it is asking if they think the balance is worth it. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
Compare the wild popularity of weekend DEXP playlists in Halo 3 with the more than 2 dozen struggling lists in Reach.
You are comparing a gametype to a playlist of many gametypes. That's not a good comparison.
Great Write-up, Cody.
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Questions we could get answered
*this is a combination of how I think they'd answer these and what I hope is true.
Sadly, I think you are exactly right. I wonder if we could craft questions that would preclude answers that don't address the actual core of the questions.For instance my question about "Will we see more about the city/people we are protecting" is really asking whether or not they think that kind of thing is valuable to the game. The only evidence we have so far is that they do not think it is valuable, but on the other hand that stuff may have just been cut for time constraints. Same with the customization of missions.
Eh. We never saw earth in Halo 1, or the rest of the Galaxy for that matter, but they were worth protecting. In contrast, Destiny's Tower directly overlooks The City!
Questions we could get answered
Eh. We never saw earth in Halo 1, or the rest of the Galaxy for that matter, but they were worth protecting. In contrast, Destiny's Tower directly overlooks The City!
Do you really think Destiny did a better job of establishing why we are fighting better than Halo? I don't want to argue too aggressively, but I can't avoid thinking that you are objectively wrong.
Questions we could get answered
Is this not obvious? It focuses player attention and ensures a healthy population if it's time-limited.
The question clearly isn't just asking for any positives to that system. it is asking if they think the balance is worth it.
They implemented it, so of course they do.
"In what way does staying married to your wife enhance your life?"
Compare the wild popularity of weekend DEXP playlists in Halo 3 with the more than 2 dozen struggling lists in Reach.
You are comparing a gametype to a playlist of many gametypes. That's not a good comparison.
Huh?
So, because Grifball was technically playable in customs all the time in Halo 3, limiting it to DEXP weekends for Matchmaking had nothing to do with it's popularity in those weekends. And Grifball being available permanently in MM in later games had nothing to do with it's lower population figures?
Questions we could get answered
Eh. We never saw earth in Halo 1, or the rest of the Galaxy for that matter, but they were worth protecting. In contrast, Destiny's Tower directly overlooks The City!
Do you really think Destiny did a better job of establishing why we are fighting better than Halo? I don't want to argue too aggressively, but I can't avoid thinking that you are objectively wrong.
Right. No point in even voicing an opinion then. If you seriously think I'm objectively wrong on this then you've got some serious problems. If not, then you shouldn't throw around words you don't understand just to try and look good at debating.
Questions we could get answered
Right. No point in even voicing an opinion then. If you seriously think I'm objectively wrong on this then you've got some serious problems. If not, then you shouldn't throw around words you don't understand just to try and look good at debating.
Pretty much everyone would agree that Huckeberry Finn is a good piece of literature. I'm perfectly comfortable saying that I believe it is objectively good. Disregarding subjective prejudices or preferences, it is a quality work of art.
In the same way, I am comfortable saying that Destiny is objectively worse at representing "why we fight" than Halo did. Basically, I have gotten very tired of arguing about opinions on the interwebz and think that agreeing on a couple baselines is going to help things. Sorry if that makes me a turd. I'm probably a turd.
Questions we could get answered
Is this not obvious? It focuses player attention and ensures a healthy population if it's time-limited.
The question clearly isn't just asking for any positives to that system. it is asking if they think the balance is worth it.
They implemented it, so of course they do.
Not quite. Very often things in a game are changed due to time constraints or server issues. I very much hope that was the issue here, because I really dislike Salvage not being available.
You are comparing a gametype to a playlist of many gametypes. That's not a good comparison.
Huh?So, because Grifball was technically playable in customs all the time in Halo 3, limiting it to DEXP weekends for Matchmaking had nothing to do with it's popularity in those weekends. And Grifball being available permanently in MM in later games had nothing to do with it's lower population figures?
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that limiting an XP bonus in playlists is not the same as limiting an entire gametype.
Questions we could get answered
Right. No point in even voicing an opinion then. If you seriously think I'm objectively wrong on this then you've got some serious problems. If not, then you shouldn't throw around words you don't understand just to try and look good at debating.
Pretty much everyone would agree that Huckeberry Finn is a good piece of literature. I'm perfectly comfortable saying that I believe it is objectively good. Disregarding subjective prejudices or preferences, it is a quality work of art.In the same way, I am comfortable saying that Destiny is objectively worse at representing "why we fight" than Halo did. Basically, I have gotten very tired of arguing about opinions on the interwebz and think that agreeing on a couple baselines is going to help things. Sorry if that makes me a turd. I'm probably a turd.
You are.
You want a baseline to agree on? That's great. I'm sure we can find plenty of things we both like or even dislike. Using language wrong becasue you don't want to debate is not going to be part of that baseline. You may be tired of arguing on the interwebz, but that doesn't excuse arguing poorly! If you don't want to argue opinion then get off the darn forum. Don't go around trying to say you are objectively right! That's crap and you know it.
Questions we could get answered
Using language wrong becasue you don't want to debate is not going to be part of that baseline. Don't go around trying to say you are objectively right! That's crap and you know it.
Sorry I guess my Huck Finn example wasn't good enough. I believe there are objectives marks that we judge works of art by. I guess you disagree with that. We can argue about that if you want?
For instance I believe the movie Kung Pow has an objectively bad narrative as far as movies go. But my opinion of it is that I like the narrative. I guess in my post I was going for a "you may have the opinion that Destiny is good at X, but can we agree that it is objectively bad?" It's a blunt thing to say, but it is hard for me to see it any other way. If someone said the same thing about Kung Pow to me, I would agree.
I don't like this
Yeah, in my mind I actually put you in the anti-Cody camp. I consider myself kind of in between.
I disagreed with his opinion of Reach. He's become less, um, absolute, in the expression his opinions, and I've probably become less likely to automatically react when I see his name.
Plus, we've gotten to play together a little, and it was enjoyable.
Also, we both think the Last of Us is amazing.
Questions we could get answered
Using language wrong becasue you don't want to debate is not going to be part of that baseline. Don't go around trying to say you are objectively right! That's crap and you know it.
Sorry I guess my Huck Finn example wasn't good enough. I believe there are objectives marks that we judge works of art by. I guess you disagree with that. We can argue about that if you want?For instance I believe the movie Kung Pow has an objectively bad narrative as far as movies go. But my opinion of it is that I like the narrative. I guess in my post I was going for a "you may have the opinion that Destiny is good at X, but can we agree that it is objectively bad?" It's a blunt thing to say, but it is hard for me to see it any other way. If someone said the same thing about Kung Pow to me, I would agree.
You're making no sense. If someone says the movie you like is bad you're...just going to agree with them? Really?
But that's besides the point. Ultimately, what I'm seeing here from you is an intense lack of respect. Someone takes the time to reply to you and the first thing you do is tell them that their opinion is objectively wrong? Without even giving them a chance to defend it? That's not how debate around opinions works. I can be objectively wrong if I say Destiny is a flight simulator or a turn based stragety game. I cannot be objectively wrong in that I think Destiny gave us a better reason to fight than Halo. All I'm asking is you show me, and every other poster, enough respect to disagree with their opinions without claiming that there is no way they can possibly be right.
+1
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Questions we could get answered
You're making no sense. If someone says the movie you like is bad you're...just going to agree with them? Really?
I don't know man, read it again? I'm not sure what other ways I can phrase it. Maybe, "something doesn't have to be of high quality for me to like it"?
Ultimately, what I'm seeing here from you is an intense lack of respect . . . I can be objectively wrong if I say Destiny is a flight simulator or a turn based stragety game. I cannot be objectively wrong in that I think Destiny gave us a better reason to fight than Halo.
I'm not saying anything about you, just that I think your assessment is faulty. As in, with the evidence provided, I think you came to an incorrect conclusion.
Whether or not you like that thing is totally up for you to decide, but I still believe that we can deduce which, between two examples, is objectively better. If you disagree with me on that, okay, you are welcome to disagree about that. That is an opinion.
Questions we could get answered
I'm not saying anything about you, just that I think your assessment is faulty. As in, with the evidence provided, I think you came to an incorrect conclusion.
His assessment is faulty only if he is working with incorrect or misleading information. He's got access to the same game we all do.
The whole idea of opinions is that they cannot be objectively correct. Smart people will, instead of telling someone their opinion is wrong, try to understand WHY it is they hold the opinion they have.
Maybe someone doesn't like grinding. Grinding is dumb and a waste of time. However, if someone says "I like to grind" that is not wrong. They might very well enjoy it. So understand why they like grinding, and you can have a better discussion. Perhaps they like grinding because they are they type of person who likes results, and doesn't like experimentation, exploration and failure. Rather than have to learn new skills, they are more happy doing the same thing over and over to get better stuff and power up their characters.
Now you can try to convince them that challenge, and going outside the box and improving yourself is more worthwhile and they key to being a more happy healthy and successful human being. If you do, then maybe they will begin to dislike grinding.
That's how you have to approach something like this. They key is that nobody's opinion is wrong.
Questions we could get answered
His assessment is faulty only if he is working with incorrect or misleading information. He's got access to the same game we all do.
The whole idea of opinions is that they cannot be objectively correct. Smart people will, instead of telling someone their opinion is wrong, try to understand WHY it is they hold the opinion they have.
Maybe someone doesn't like grinding. Grinding is dumb and a waste of time. However, if someone says "I like to grind" that is not wrong. They might very well enjoy it. So understand why they like grinding, and you can have a better discussion. Perhaps they like grinding because they are they type of person who likes results, and doesn't like experimentation, exploration and failure. Rather than have to learn new skills, they are more happy doing the same thing over and over to get better stuff and power up their characters.
Now you can try to convince them that challenge, and going outside the box and improving yourself is more worthwhile and they key to being a more happy healthy and successful human being. If you do, then maybe they will begin to dislike grinding.
That's how you have to approach something like this. They key is that nobody's opinion is wrong.
I find my self without words when one with such a dedicated history of a hard line professes to essentially seek understanding from all venues.
Conversing on the internet really doesn't do justice sometimes.
Interest: piked
Which symbol are those? When I get the bounty, I go straight for the "kill anything in this area 'till there's enough blood for our satisfaction" (5 squares arranged in a cross) or the "fetch me x number of these obviously fetishist items" (triangular pyramid)
Questions we could get answered
Nah. He's been getting more and more... less aggressive in his opinions these past few months. I think you could've objectively seen it coming. ;)
Interest: piked
Which symbol are those? When I get the bounty, I go straight for the "kill anything in this area 'till there's enough blood for our satisfaction" (5 squares arranged in a cross) or the "fetch me x number of these obviously fetishist items" (triangular pyramid)
It's a star, like a VIP icon.
Questions we could get answered
Nah, I think it's that he genuinely found good stuff here. Just imagine if the Raid had been one huge terrible waste of time and sucked, though.
Questions we could get answered
Nah, I think it's that he genuinely found good stuff here. Just imagine if the Raid had been one huge terrible waste of time and sucked, though.
The raid is one of the few things in Destiny that was not overhyped. I think it delivered on everything they promised.