https://www.bungie.net/en/News/News?aid=12540

"Jon: In the end, I came up with a surgical change that fixes the main issue and minimizes the chances that a new problem would be introduced."

Is 'surgical change' a nicer way of saying a hack? :-p

Nice job guys, thanks for putting in the effort. Now let us skip cutscenes, apply exp to weapons on daily mission completions, bigger vault, and we are good to go.

Jonnyothan is the true hero of Destiny.

So, basically, I was right. Do I get my own branded shirts now?

So, basically, I was right. Do I get my own branded shirts now?

If you were right, all Bungie would have had to do is load the armor first, then the weapons to fix the problem.

...and then other stuff broke. So surgical fix.

In theory you just change the order, yeah. But like CyberKN said, probably they tried that and it ended up causing other issues.

And anyway, I never suggested a fix, just a theory on the logical flow that was causing the issue. A correct theory. :P

I bet it was letting ammo % go over 1.0 to represent ammo held over 'normal' capacity (says the person with no knowledge of the actual system -- just like everyone else here).

"We know you want a bigger vault [...] We're talking about it"

What's to talk about? Give us a bigger vault. Unless it's more complicated, in which case tell us. dont leave us hanging on a "we might give it to you. If you're good"

Giving us something they had not planned, means not giving us something that was planned, or at least delaying it for a period of time, which might end up being equivalent to never giving it to us.

"Jon: There are a lot of weapon and armor perks in the game. Changing the order of how they are applied has a huge impact. It would have required a large restructuring of the way the game works to even accomplish this, because the armor perks can’t take effect until the weapon is created anyway. The application of armor perks would have to be inserted in between weapon creation and the rest of the weapon setup code."
:)

I'm sure there's a good reason for why it's not happened yet, don't get me wrong.

But if it's not feasible, or there's a reason they're deliberating, it would be nice to be told. Even if it's just "we haven't decided yet". But they say "We want you to have it", so they've decided that much. What stage are they at now? That's all I'd like to know.

Now THAT is garbage. Hopefully that will be addressed too.

Now THAT is garbage. Hopefully that will be addressed too.

Doubtful, surgery implies a very specific fix.

That they're intending to work on it, but are getting some other things out of the way first (work on expansions and new game modes/events, working on the new Hard Mode bugs, work on the heavy ammo bug, etc.) so they haven't actually put any real input on it, and are talking about what to do about that.

Or they're working on a nonstandard solution to it, ie. one that isn't just literally increasing vault size, and are working on the feasibility of it.

Either case would make it a bit hard to put a straight answer through, and I think PR in general is cagey around things which might happen, so as to avoid accidentally making a promise they mightn't keep?

It's probably actually just that they've determined that the only way of fixing it was a hack, and they spent a lot of time/effort attempting to find other, more complete fixes that wouldn't break anything else, to no avail.

Or it could be a hack that wasn't nearly so simple as your suggestion.

Or, you know, it might just not be a hack at all. :p

*drum roll*

"Under promise, over deliver"
In engineering, and certainly in tech, there are unforeseen variables and competing priorities.

The only downside to that otherwise great advice is that you may not win contracts or gain pre-sales. However it's generally thought that in any sort of long run, it's better to have your customers a little bummed prior to using a product, and excited after using it, than the opposite, even if you have few customers because of it. Over promising and under delivering are signs of a business on its last leg, the equivalent of an all-in when you're holding no cards.

Also, I know very little about business.

- No text -

No, hacks generally refer to a fix that does not care or worry about how it affects performance of other functions so long as they all work. Jon's talk reminds me a lot of my supervisor (I'm a web developer), who would take the time to test out multiple fixes and test for performance gains and losses for each fix. Basically it sounds like he's trying to create the least invasive and most performant fix for the problem, which in the long run is what we want.

Seriously, in the grand scheme of things, and compared to other issues, Ice Breaker ammo resetting is an extremely minor inconvenience. More so in Crucible than in PvE, but that's the price you pay for never needing ammo. Also, Ice Breaker's clearly shown to have secondary effects on the way the game works, so they probably don't want to touch that too much...

- No text -

Bad example, but let's say for instance that area was actually hard or something. Like they were all Hallowed Thrall or Knights or hell, even Ogres. To have that battle on you and be completely drained of your ammo can really mess you up. Again, the Dark Beyond is a terrible example, but I don't like the deprivation.

OOH! I just thought of a cutscene that applies--The Black Garden. The second that cutscene ends, you're surrounded by 30(Daily) Goblins and Hobs and you've got virtually nothing! It's just not a good idea.

Over promising and under delivering are signs of a business on its last leg, the equivalent of an all-in when you're holding no cards.

Or you're a REALLY big corporation who over-promising doesn't affect :)

I think it's fair. IceBreaker is too powerful and has infinite ammo. Having it filled up from the start of a major battle is already OP enough. Granted, every other major battle has you starting with it potentially filled up.

Anyway, all you have to do is not get shot to death for a little bit and it is filled up. :p

When I or a colleague speak of a "surgical change" in code I think of a localized "smaller" change. The word "precise" comes to mind. Perhaps an if statement in some otherwise general code that is triggered in one specific scenario, or even something like changing the meaning of "100% ammo" and letting ammo go over 100% suggested by ZackDark.

Bad example, but let's say for instance that area was actually hard or something. Like they were all Hallowed Thrall or Knights or hell, even Ogres. To have that battle on you and be completely drained of your ammo can really mess you up. Again, the Dark Beyond is a terrible example, but I don't like the deprivation.

OOH! I just thought of a cutscene that applies--The Black Garden. The second that cutscene ends, you're surrounded by 30(Daily) Goblins and Hobs and you've got virtually nothing! It's just not a good idea.

That's weird; on my version of Destiny, you start out far away and above them by the entrance to the area. They have to work their way up before they can start shooting. If you start out surrounded by them, you might have a defective copy. Also, it sucks that you don't have a single other weapon at your disposal while the ammo refills on your Gamebreaker...

/poop.

Like I said, if you can only think of one instance where it becomes a minor inconvenience, I think that means that it's not a serious issue that is worth the risk to fix...

- No text -

OOH! I just thought of a cutscene that applies--The Black Garden. The second that cutscene ends, you're surrounded by 30(Daily) Goblins and Hobs and you've got virtually nothing! It's just not a good idea.

How long have you been playing Destiny and not known you have two other guns!? You're hardcore man.

Pie-in-the-sky demos are fun and all, but one of the things I do enjoy about Apple is that when they finally decide to talk about a product, I know it'll be something I could realistically buy, and buy soon. Really unlike most other tech companies that talk about delivering something, but have no ship date and no price, which usually mean the project will die in the next 12 months when they figure out they can't make it cheap enough or fast enough.

That method of "announcing" things has really killed most of my excitement for any announcement from Microsoft or Google. If your product demo requires you to hire CGI artists to show off what the engineers haven't finished yet, you've failed. That's like advertising a video game with action sequences and having that asterisk at the bottom that reads "not actual game play".

I have no doubt R&D departments have done absolutely amazing things. The real hurdle is designing it in a way that it can be mass produced for a reasonable price, and have the reliability not suck.

[/accidental friday rant]

- No text -

If your product demo requires you to hire CGI artists to show off what the engineers haven't finished yet, you've failed.

This, 1000x.

- No text -

If your product demo requires you to hire CGI artists to show off what the engineers haven't finished yet, you've failed.

See:

That's weird; on my version of Destiny, you start out far away and above them by the entrance to the area. They have to work their way up before they can start shooting. If you start out surrounded by them, you might have a defective copy.

Wow! How amazing! You must have one of those Special Editions where the Vex don't teleport at all!

Also, it sucks that you don't have a single other weapon at your disposal while the ammo refills on your Gamebreaker...

Right, because all of the experience points and upgrades for all of my other weapons all apply to the "Gamebreaker".

The millisecond I bought it, not a damn thing else mattered except leveling it up. All the times I tried to beat Crota and, more importantly, the Deathsingers, and failed endlessly. Every single walkthrough video I found had half to all six players with Icebreaker and Galy-horn. I say "and" because since they were on the next gen consoles, their pause screen loaded instantly and could switch weapons in a heartbeat.

I had none of the "game breaking" weapons, therefore I had no chance in hell. So when that Icebreaker went on sale, I immediately purchased it and had only one goal in mind: shoving that entire fully upgraded weapon--and at least half of my shoulder blade--FAR UP THEIR ASS.

I finally had the equipment to walk past the "You must be this equipped to ride" sign at the bridge of the Hellmouth, and I wanted that POWER.

But hey, my stuff's fully upgrade now, so I guess I'll just use whatever piss-shooter I have to sacrifice my Bad Juju slot.

Everybody wins, and we get to work with what both our separate copies of Destiny does and doesn't do for us.

- No text -

The millisecond I bought it, not a damn thing else mattered except leveling it up. All the times I tried to beat Crota and, more importantly, the Deathsingers, and failed endlessly. Every single walkthrough video I found had half to all six players with Icebreaker and Galy-horn. I say "and" because since they were on the next gen consoles, their pause screen loaded instantly and could switch weapons in a heartbeat.

I had none of the "game breaking" weapons, therefore I had no chance in hell. So when that Icebreaker went on sale, I immediately purchased it and had only one goal in mind: shoving that entire fully upgraded weapon--and at least half of my shoulder blade--FAR UP THEIR ASS.

I finally had the equipment to walk past the "You must be this equipped to ride" sign at the bridge of the Hellmouth, and I wanted that POWER.

But hey, my stuff's fully upgrade now, so I guess I'll just use whatever piss-shooter I have to sacrifice my Bad Juju slot.

Everybody wins, and we get to work with what both our separate copies of Destiny does and doesn't do for us.

Buddy, I think you just went Full 343...

TBH, I'd rather have Bad Juju than Icebreaker for that fight anyway. Icebreaker is great but it's not automatically the most effective weapon for every encounter.

Anyway, your original point, that Icebreaker's ammo resetting after a cutscene sucks, is valid. I don't think it's as bad as the heavy ammo bug (since Icebreaker will come back eventually, whereas the heavy ammo is just gone forever), but it's not good.

Hey, I'm plenty calm. I just don't appreciate being treated like I'm stupid. I may be immature, but I'm not an idiot. I'm pretty sure everyone here(including Korny) knows that after the Black Garden cutscene ends, multiple Vex teleport right up to the door with you. Sometimes 1-3, sometimes all at once. But to say "they have to work their way up", like they're just stumbling across the platforms and then lumbering to barely pull themselves up...that's just insulting to me to play dumb like that.

Plus, I'm getting badgered about "not knowing I have two other guns" and "not having any other weapons". Don't any of you think I know that? That's why I had to explain the reason I was using Icebreaker all the time. Doesn't that make sense?

If your product demo requires you to hire CGI artists to show off what the engineers haven't finished yet, you've failed.

This, 1000x.

Yeah this amused me to no end. Made me think of all the articles that came out after the Hololens announcement talking about "What happened to Apple's innovation, looks like Microsoft is picking up their slack." Except Apple never shows a product until it can actually do what they show on stage.

Not saying Hololens doesn't look awesome, but the whole time I was thinking "This is just CG, does it actually do this now?"

Hey, I'm plenty calm. I just don't appreciate being treated like I'm stupid. I may be immature, but I'm not an idiot. I'm pretty sure everyone here(including Korny) knows that after the Black Garden cutscene ends, multiple Vex teleport right up to the door with you. Sometimes 1-3, sometimes all at once. But to say "they have to work their way up", like they're just stumbling across the platforms and then lumbering to barely pull themselves up...that's just insulting to me to play dumb like that.

I tested it out, just to see if I could somehow survive the impossible...

Plus, I'm getting badgered about "not knowing I have two other guns" and "not having any other weapons". Don't any of you think I know that? That's why I had to explain the reason I was using Icebreaker all the time. Doesn't that make sense?

... No.

Not saying Hololens doesn't look awesome, but the whole time I was thinking "This is just CG, does it actually do this now?"

I couldn't stop thinking the exact same thing. I still don't know the answer, but I suspect it's, "no".

Plus, I'm getting badgered about "not knowing I have two other guns" and "not having any other weapons". Don't any of you think I know that? That's why I had to explain the reason I was using Icebreaker all the time. Doesn't that make sense?

So... you may or may not know this... but you can level an item (ANY item) in two or three days (I got Ruin Wings Tuesday night from the Nightfall, and it was 100% upgraded by last night) without ever having to use it.

I play the way I normally play, and load up on bounties at the Tower. When they're ready to turn in, I equip the new stuff, turn in the bounties, and all of that experience gets dumped on them. (You also get experience when redeeming postmaster-held upgrades from Vanguard/Crucible/Cryptarch/Factions, so keep the gear on the whole time you're in the tower.)

Between standard bounties, Eris bounties, and random experience from Cryptarch/Postmaster, I get enough experience to upgrade an Exotic in two days. No playing with unleveled stuff at all!

I never said it was impossible. I just said it was garbage. An adjective expressing distaste at an inconvenience.

Plus, I'm getting badgered about "not knowing I have two other guns" and "not having any other weapons". Don't any of you think I know that? That's why I had to explain the reason I was using Icebreaker all the time. Doesn't that make sense?

So... you may or may not know this... but you can level an item (ANY item) in two or three days (I got Ruin Wings Tuesday night from the Nightfall, and it was 100% upgraded by last night) without ever having to use it.

I play the way I normally play, and load up on bounties at the Tower. When they're ready to turn in, I equip the new stuff, turn in the bounties, and all of that experience gets dumped on them. (You also get experience when redeeming postmaster-held upgrades from Vanguard/Crucible/Cryptarch/Factions, so keep the gear on the whole time you're in the tower.)

Between standard bounties, Eris bounties, and random experience from Cryptarch/Postmaster, I get enough experience to upgrade an Exotic in two days. No playing with unleveled stuff at all!

Yes, I know...but a combination of excitement and determined anticipation for sodomizing Crota kept my Icebreaker equipped at all times. Bouties are a big jump, but shooting enemies with those weapons are also a big help. Anything I could've done to make it faster and further would've nailed it.

Hmm--almost thought I was gonna miss it.

Again, any time I express my opinion, I'm called a troll.

Hmm--almost thought I was gonna miss it.

Again, any time I express my opinion, I'm called a troll.

No no no monsieur...you are not the troll. You just have to pay him ;)

I think the best option is to try and do as many bounties as you possibly can, sometimes I get all 10 slots done, and then I take a telemetry for all of the guns I want to upgrade and turn my bounties in. I'll even swap out guns if I've maxed one out and i'm in the middle of turning in bounties.

I think the best option is to try and do as many bounties as you possibly can, sometimes I get all 10 slots done, and then I take a telemetry for all of the guns I want to upgrade and turn my bounties in. I'll even swap out guns if I've maxed one out and i'm in the middle of turning in bounties.

Bounties + telemetries. Fun fact: your telemetry stays active across all characters. For maximum impact, get ten bounties ready to turn in on each character, then activate a telemetry. It will last long enough for you to pass whatever you are leveling up to the other characters, and get the exp with their bounties too.

I finally had the equipment to walk past the "You must be this equipped to ride" sign at the bridge of the Hellmouth, and I wanted that POWER.

Skill is what ultimately matters most. You don't need an icebreaker to beat Crota. You can be formidable with only stuff from the Vanguard.

I'm not saying that it's not a benefit to have good weapons, and perhaps hard mode is more demanding in that regard, but you can do it if you tailor your strategies around what your group has.

Truth be told, I do not use icebreaker at all anymore. The only time I used it was on Vault of Glass, because of the high impact, and the fact that the templar / atheon are vulnerable for short windows, which works perfectly with the icebreaker's regenerating ammo, yet small total ammo count.

However, for Crota on normal I was using LDR since it has as much power, yet more ammo capacity, and on hard Black Hammer. In fact, Black Hammer has completely replaced Icebreaker for me.

The bottom line, is don't get too caught up on having any specific gun, as the raids aren't designed in such a way that you NEED any specific weapon.

Hmm--almost thought I was gonna miss it.

Again, any time I express my opinion, I'm called a troll.

No no no monsieur...you are not the troll. You just have to pay him ;)

It's okay, that butt-whooping that I gave to his claims with clear video proof is Boy's Hole enough for me...

Nobody can out-troll the Korny, but he gave it a valiant effort. Just needed a few more randomly capitalized words...

- No text -

That's helpful, and to think I was buying telemetries to keep on various characters. very silly.

I put on an Auto Rifle, Shotgun, and Machine Gun Telemetry on my Warlock. That worked, but when I switched to my Hunter, I got pretty much nothing.

Oh, and in case any of you think I'm trolling/lying...

http://xboxdvr.com/Morpheus414/c01b35d7-a827-4d23-91ce-115a0421c072

- No text -

- No text -