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Prison of Elders 2.0 (Destiny)

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, July 20, 2015, 15:07 (3652 days ago)
edited by CruelLEGACEY, Monday, July 20, 2015, 15:17

I've been thinking a lot about Prison of Elders lately, and what could be done to improve it as part of a future expansion or sequel. I've come up with something that I think would be interesting, and hopefully a lot of fun. I'd love to hear what you all think.

First, some of the high-level changes:

* Take a journey: In place of the current layout, my idea for PoE 2.0 would involve a (semi) linear progression through a series of combat spaces. No more "4 arenas connected by a central hub".

* Boss rebalancing: I believe the PoE bosses are by far the most interesting part of the current game mode. My idea for PoE 2.0 removes the repetitive rounds of mob enemies and places a boss battle at stages 2-5. As such, some of the bosses would need to be tweaked a little to prevent the whole challenge from becoming too long.

* Skolas for everyone Skolas, as the end boss of the game mode, is available to fight at any difficulty. But there's a wrinkle I will get to later.

* Difficulty: PoE 2.0 will feature 2 difficulty levels; Hard and Normal. Hard mode would be on par with the current maximum light level (so if this came out right now, it would be 34). Normal would be 4 levels below. I'm getting rid of over-leveled enemies because I'm adding greater and more complex challenge in other ways.

* Checkpoints! Your progress will be saved upon completion of each stage in the challenge. Your saves reset weekly, just like the raids.

* Loot! You will be rewarded a loot drop at the end of each stage. A loot pool will be designed for each stage, with the better drops available on the later stages (also like the raids).

* Choose your own adventure: Your actions determine who you fight next. I'll explain below, but anyone who has played Star Fox 64 will know exactly where I'm going with this.


Here's the full breakdown:

One of my problems with PoE as it works now is that it doesn't make any sense thematically or within the fiction. It doesn't look or function like a Prison in any way, and our movement back and forth through the arenas doesn't create any sense of progression. One of my favorite things about the Raids (especially VoG) is the feeling that your team is going on a journey. I want to bring that into Prison of Elders. In PoE 2.0, your fireteam must break in to the Prison and track Skolas down, fighting through several stages of enemy resistance along the way. The prison itself will contain 11 unique combat arenas, all connected by paths, hallways and tunnels.
I realize 11 sounds like a high number but keep in mind: you will only fight through 5 arenas per playthrough, and all of the arenas would be relatively small when compared to any of the spaces found in either raid. These arenas should not feel like random playspaces. Each unique arena should be modeled after a a believable location within the Prison. I want the prison to feel like a real place, with an understandable layout.

Prison of Elders 2.0 would take you through 5 stages:

Stage 1: Break in and enter the Prison (face standard waves of enemies, similar to current PoE waves).
Stage 2: Confront 1 of several deadly prisoners (Boss fight)
Stage 3: Concerned by your progress, the enemy sends 1 of several elite agents to stop you. Kill them dead, Guardians. (Boss fight)
Stage 4: Face off against one of the oldest and most dangerous prisoners. (Boss Fight)
Stage 5 (optional): You've founds Skolas. Now end him. (Final boss)


For the more visual types reading this, here's a little "map" I threw together:

[image]

The Star Fox 64 similarities should now be a little more clear ;)

Progressing through the Prison:

You will progress through the Prison, making your way through the various stages. But your precise path through the prison will be determined by your actions during each stage. You can see from the map that each stage has multiple paths forward. You can alter your path by completing special bonus objectives while in combat. These bonus objectives are 100% optional. You can ignore them and proceed along the default "path". But choosing to complete these objectives will allow you to progress through a different part of the prison, and face different bosses along the way. For example, you can play through stage one and proceed directly to the Overmind Minotaur for stage 2. Or, if you kill the Fallen Scout (bonus objective) before he is able to escape, you will proceed to the Pilot Servitor for stage 2.

Bonus Objectives:

I have plenty of ideas for bonus objectives. One arena might contain a terminal that can be hacked by your ghost, which will open a hidden door once you complete the current battle. You could have a special VIP target that appears during battle... killing the target would open an alternate route. You could even have hidden paths that don't require completion of any specific objective... you would just need to find and reach them. The specific nature of each bonus objective doesn't really matter. What is important is that they are

a) consistent: each specific objective opens a specific path forward. You must be able to reach the various bosses intentionally, so these objectives and their results cannot be random.

and

b) these objective are not pointed out. They must be "hidden" and "found". VIP targets could be identified by a special unique name over their heads, for example. Finding these objectives should be part of the fun, and we don't want them to get confused with the mandatory special objectives that may occur (dismantle mines, destroy target, etc).


The paths between stages.

Connecting each of the boss arenas will be a series of paths and hallways. Instead of just running in a straight line between arenas, I imagine some more intricately designed pathways with light skirmishes along the way. These pathways would provide some nice downtime between major battles, and who knows... maybe even a couple hidden loot chests?


The search for Skolas

The entire point of your mission is to track Skolas down and put an end to his madness. But success is not guaranteed. If you want to defeat Skolas, you will need to find him first. To do this, you must hunt for clues.

In addition to the bonus objectives that let you choose your path through the prison, there will also be a special set of objectives directly related to finding Skolas (remember when I said I would be adding greater challenge and complexity?).
Once again, these "Find Skolas" objectives would be completely optional. If you don't complete them, stage 4 is the final stage. But if you want to face Skolas, you'd better complete them all.

The "Find Skolas" objectives can be found in stage 2, 3, and 4. The objective is the same each time. Escort Ghost through the arena while he scans for clues to Skolas' location. It works like this: You must find the specific spot in each arena that lets you begin your scan. Ghost will start searching, slowly moving through the arena. But he needs to draw extra power from your light in order to generate a protective shield, so you need to stay close to him. The more guardians that are standing in close proximity to Ghost, the faster he can move. If nobody is standing close to him, Ghost will teleport to safety until you return to his last location and resume the scan.

Yes, I lifted this straight out of Mass Effect 3:

*Do yourself a favor and mute the audio. The commentator is beyond annoying :(*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkElEJHvCMs&t=480

If you complete this special objective in stages 2, 3, and 4, then the path to Skolas will be unlocked and you can face him.

So, that's about it. What does everyone think?

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Prison of Elders 2.0

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Monday, July 20, 2015, 15:16 (3652 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

I personally really like the idea of pretty much all of This. I was never a fan of the escorting missions though...

However I think that biggest thing we seem to forget is that we aren't normal Destiny Players. I know you have thought of easier ways to play this. But still, there are a lot of things that I feel like the general public might just ignore or not be able to complete.

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Prison of Elders 2.0

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, July 20, 2015, 15:22 (3652 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

First of all, thanks for your feedback!

A couple of things:

I was never a fan of the escorting missions though...

Generally speaking, neither am I. But they worked really well in Mass Effect for a few reasons.

First of all, the thing you are escorting can't die, so that's a big frustration out of the way. And the drone in ME would actually attack enemies if it was fully powered (your entire team was standing around it). This is another cool feature, IMO.

Also, the way you complete the escort is somewhat flexible. If your entire team crowds around the ghost, it will be riskier (you're all somewhat exposed) but the ghost will move faster. Alternatively, you could have 1 or 2 guardians handle the escort duties while the rest of the fireteam provides cover from a safe spot.


However I think that biggest thing we seem to forget is that we aren't normal Destiny Players. I know you have thought of easier ways to play this. But still, there are a lot of things that I feel like the general public might just ignore or not be able to complete.

What elements concerned you in particular?

Thanks!

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Prison of Elders 2.0

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Monday, July 20, 2015, 15:33 (3652 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

First of all, thanks for your feedback!

A couple of things:

I was never a fan of the escorting missions though...


Generally speaking, neither am I. But they worked really well in Mass Effect for a few reasons.

First of all, the thing you are escorting can't die, so that's a big frustration out of the way. And the drone in ME would actually attack enemies if it was fully powered (your entire team was standing around it). This is another cool feature, IMO.

Also, the way you complete the escort is somewhat flexible. If your entire team crowds around the ghost, it will be riskier (you're all somewhat exposed) but the ghost will move faster. Alternatively, you could have 1 or 2 guardians handle the escort duties while the rest of the fireteam provides cover from a safe spot.


However I think that biggest thing we seem to forget is that we aren't normal Destiny Players. I know you have thought of easier ways to play this. But still, there are a lot of things that I feel like the general public might just ignore or not be able to complete.


What elements concerned you in particular?

Thanks!

Hmmmm, after re-reading it a second time I realize that I thought the bonus objectives that are somewhat invisible were required to get to Skolas.

Now my only concern (not complaint) is that you would need a diagram and explanation that you just gave to understand PoE 2.0

Which for some of us is fine. But for "normal" people, there would have to be some in-game help of some sort. The current PoE is complex, but its only complexity and effects from the complexity only affects the current round. And it could cause some grievances when people realize that it was required to do so and so before they had gotten to where they are at.

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Prison of Elders 2.0

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, July 20, 2015, 15:38 (3652 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

Now my only concern (not complaint) is that you would need a diagram and explanation that you just gave to understand PoE 2.0

Which for some of us is fine. But for "normal" people, there would have to be some in-game help of some sort. The current PoE is complex, but its only complexity and effects from the complexity only affects the current round. And it could cause some grievances when people realize that it was required to do so and so before they had gotten to where they are at.

That's a totally valid concern, and you might be completely right. But on the flip side, Star Fox 64 did this exact thing long before internet guides were commonly available, and it worked great. Star fox showed you and actually star map with the different missions, and charted your progress as you went through. So it was apparent right from the start that there were other levels you could somehow reach. Figuring out how to find those branching paths became part of the replay value. Some clues were given along the way as well, through dialog and chatter from the other pilots in your squad. Destiny could do the same thing through dialogue from your ghost or other NPCs.

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Prison of Elders 2.0

by Vortech @, A Fourth Wheel, Monday, July 20, 2015, 19:19 (3652 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Or, in the name of immersion, just have maps of the facility on the wall and let people figure it out.

So... make it a raid?

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Monday, July 20, 2015, 15:25 (3652 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Sold!

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Ha! Maybe "Raid Jr" :)

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, July 20, 2015, 15:32 (3652 days ago) @ someotherguy

- No text -

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So... make it a raid?

by Chappy, Arlington, VA., Monday, July 20, 2015, 16:35 (3652 days ago) @ someotherguy

That was my thought too - this would be a great raid! I'll take two.

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Yes.

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Monday, July 20, 2015, 15:43 (3652 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Sounds very complex to implement from scratch, but there might already be hooks that simplify it in the game.

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A cool idea

by Durandal, Monday, July 20, 2015, 15:52 (3652 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

In general I think mixing up terrain and bosses helps.

I would also add: mini-bosses who are not just mobs with more health.
Halo Scarab style bosses, kind of like those old side scrolling bosses, where you can break into and fight from inside or wear them down from outside depending on your skill set and daring.

More varied mini-missions then shoot this thing, shoot this guy, and stand here for a minute. Also, mini-missions don't end the round, but provide bonus/penalties for completion. Such as, that captain who gets to the goal picks up a thermal cannon and starts going to town on teams.

Terrain movement. Let players do something that opens or closes off portions of the map. Making some areas safe or changing the routing. Right now all the encounters have players hiding in the back of the map, and really we should encourage more adventure.

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I mix up terrain and bosses all the time! Stupid rock...

by Funkmon @, Monday, July 20, 2015, 15:56 (3652 days ago) @ Durandal

- No text -

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Sounds good

by CyberKN ⌂ @, Oh no, Destiny 2 is bad, Monday, July 20, 2015, 16:29 (3652 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Saw your map and immediately thought of FTL:

[image]

As your post shows, the Prison of elders could have been great. Instead, it's just another reason I'm not getting TTK.

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Sounds good

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, July 20, 2015, 17:11 (3652 days ago) @ CyberKN

Saw your map and immediately thought of FTL:

[image]

As your post shows, the Prison of elders could have been great. Instead, it's just another reason I'm not getting TTK.

What makes you think the oryx raid isn't going to easily top Crota's End, much less the Prison of Elders?

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Sounds good

by CyberKN ⌂ @, Oh no, Destiny 2 is bad, Monday, July 20, 2015, 17:31 (3652 days ago) @ Cody Miller

What makes you think the oryx raid isn't going to easily top Crota's End, much less the Prison of Elders?

I'm sure the Oryx raid will be interesting, and probably better than Crota's end, but that doesn't justify a $40 price tag. Getting TTK will mean I've effectively spent $80 for two raids, because everything else in these DLCs has been worthless. Seeing Cruel's post reminded me how pissed I am that we don't have a Fallen raid right now. The Cost/Reward ratio is totally unbalanced in Destiny, and I'm tired of giving Bungie the benefit of the doubt.

The Season Pass was a total scam, and when I see people on this forum talking about how they've picked it and the game up on multiple platforms, my head starts to hurt.

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Sounds good

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, July 20, 2015, 17:53 (3652 days ago) @ CyberKN

Does 40 dollars mean that much to you? I mean, you could easily spend that much money on a couple of hours out on a Friday night doing the same old shit with your friends. But you won't spend it on one of the best FPS activities on a console? Seems to me if you can't spend 40 bucks on a raid you might as well give up on video games altogether, as you aren't going to get anything that cool in any other FPS.

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Cody's right.

by Funkmon @, Monday, July 20, 2015, 18:01 (3652 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Most wouldn't think twice about $40 for a dinner out with friends. When you hang out you don't still sit around in the WalMart parking lot at midnight sharing a 2 liter of Royal Crown cola, you go to the bar, buy a couple beers, get food, pay for gasoline, etc. This is fine. This is the cost of having friends.

For $40, I get to play with guys I would never get to see as much as I want whenever I want. Most raids are just shooting the shit anyway, so who cares? However, you do need SOMETHING new to do, or you won't bother with your friends anymore.

The cost of Destiny is a friend service fee. As a bonus, it is, in my opinion, the best PLAYING game I have ever experienced.

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I think I land somewhere in the middle

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, July 20, 2015, 18:14 (3652 days ago) @ Funkmon

Most wouldn't think twice about $40 for a dinner out with friends. When you hang out you don't still sit around in the WalMart parking lot at midnight sharing a 2 liter of Royal Crown cola, you go to the bar, buy a couple beers, get food, pay for gasoline, etc. This is fine. This is the cost of having friends.

For $40, I get to play with guys I would never get to see as much as I want whenever I want. Most raids are just shooting the shit anyway, so who cares? However, you do need SOMETHING new to do, or you won't bother with your friends anymore.

The cost of Destiny is a friend service fee. As a bonus, it is, in my opinion, the best PLAYING game I have ever experienced.

On one level, I completely agree. Playing Destiny with friends is pretty much the extent of my social life these days, so paying $80-$100 per year isn't at all bad on that level.

But at the same time, since HoW came out I've often caught myself thinking "what did I just pay for?". Missions that reuse locations (or allow access to locations that have always been there), 3 multiplayer maps, and a half-baked, poorly implemented arena mode?

When The Dark Below came out, many of us were quick to defend Bungie: "they had to rush this one out but they're putting more work in to House of Wolves". Then HoW comes out and delivers even less, and now it's "well most of the studio is clearly working on The Taken King, so THAT will be great". Where does it stop?

Then I step back and remember that I paid $15 for 3 Titanfall maps, 3 times over. So little content, but I was happy. Why?
I think it's because I bought 3 maps and was totally happy with them. They were beautifully designed. With Destiny, I feel like both expansions include more than enough content to justify the price... It's just that most of the new content feels sub par. TDB had the raid, HoW has Trials... for me, the rest has been largely disappointing.

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I think I land somewhere in the middle

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Monday, July 20, 2015, 18:19 (3652 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Most wouldn't think twice about $40 for a dinner out with friends. When you hang out you don't still sit around in the WalMart parking lot at midnight sharing a 2 liter of Royal Crown cola, you go to the bar, buy a couple beers, get food, pay for gasoline, etc. This is fine. This is the cost of having friends.

For $40, I get to play with guys I would never get to see as much as I want whenever I want. Most raids are just shooting the shit anyway, so who cares? However, you do need SOMETHING new to do, or you won't bother with your friends anymore.

The cost of Destiny is a friend service fee. As a bonus, it is, in my opinion, the best PLAYING game I have ever experienced.


On one level, I completely agree. Playing Destiny with friends is pretty much the extent of my social life these days, so paying $80-$100 per year isn't at all bad on that level.

But at the same time, since HoW came out I've often caught myself thinking "what did I just pay for?". Missions that reuse locations (or allow access to locations that have always been there), 3 multiplayer maps, and a half-baked, poorly implemented arena mode?

When The Dark Below came out, many of us were quick to defend Bungie: "they had to rush this one out but they're putting more work in to House of Wolves". Then HoW comes out and delivers even less, and now it's "well most of the studio is clearly working on The Taken King, so THAT will be great". Where does it stop?

Then I step back and remember that I paid $15 for 3 Titanfall maps, 3 times over. So little content, but I was happy. Why?
I think it's because I bought 3 maps and was totally happy with them. They were beautifully designed. With Destiny, I feel like both expansions include more than enough content to justify the price... It's just that most of the new content feels sub par. TDB had the raid, HoW has Trials... for me, the rest has been largely disappointing.

I also think our standard for what we expect $40 dollars worth of content is worth is much higher than it was 5 years ago. And also, I feel like most people base their expectations on a raid, and to me personally, I don't think Destiny is all about raiding. It's great, but it's not everything.

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I think I land somewhere in the middle

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, July 20, 2015, 18:41 (3652 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

And also, I feel like most people base their expectations on a raid, and to me personally, I don't think Destiny is all about raiding. It's great, but it's not everything.

I don't think Raiding is everything either, but to me the Raids are the thing that makes the rest of the game work.

For me, Destiny fell into a great loop with a raid at the center of the end game. The raids themselves are fantastic pieces of content. Playing them feels like the ultimate Destiny challenge. Then you come out with a couple great pieces of new gear; weapons or armor that are so good, they literally change the way you can play the game. Naturally, you want to level these new toys up as fast as possible, so you take them back into the rest of the game and have fun with them. Run some story missions, complete some bounties, maybe do a nightfall with your fancy new elemental primary weapon... etc. All this old content now has a new twist to it because you have some new tools to play with.

Then, you take your new gear and your experience back into the raid and go through it again. Learn a few new tricks, try some new strategies. You get through it a bit more smoothly and efficiently, which is a great feeling. Plus you come out with a couple more cool pieces of gear, and the cycle repeats over and over and over.

If it weren't for Trials of Osiris, all of this would now be gone from the game (for me) thanks to House of Wolves. Luckily I've managed to get to the Lighthouse on a fairly regular basis, so I've been able to build up a collection of new elemental weapons. They're awesome, and again help breath a little bit of new life into the game. But not enough to make up for the lack of a raid, or similarly great PvE activity.

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Cody's right.

by CyberKN ⌂ @, Oh no, Destiny 2 is bad, Monday, July 20, 2015, 18:25 (3652 days ago) @ Funkmon
edited by CyberKN, Monday, July 20, 2015, 18:31

Most wouldn't think twice about $40 for a dinner out with friends. When you hang out you don't still sit around in the WalMart parking lot at midnight sharing a 2 liter of Royal Crown cola, you go to the bar, buy a couple beers, get food, pay for gasoline, etc. This is fine. This is the cost of having friends.

For $40, I get to play with guys I would never get to see as much as I want whenever I want. Most raids are just shooting the shit anyway, so who cares? However, you do need SOMETHING new to do, or you won't bother with your friends anymore.

The cost of Destiny is a friend service fee. As a bonus, it is, in my opinion, the best PLAYING game I have ever experienced.

But if the bar's service was terrible, you'd stop going there. Sure, the beer might be the best in town, but the manager keeps hiring the same crappy band to play, and the floors and tables don't feel like they've been cleaned in weeks.

Regardless of how much something costs, it should leave you satisfied. And Destiny isn't satisfying. I feel like I'm paying $40 to sit around in the WalMart parking lot at midnight, sharing a 2 liter of Royal Crown cola.

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Cody's right.

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, July 20, 2015, 18:33 (3652 days ago) @ CyberKN

Most wouldn't think twice about $40 for a dinner out with friends. When you hang out you don't still sit around in the WalMart parking lot at midnight sharing a 2 liter of Royal Crown cola, you go to the bar, buy a couple beers, get food, pay for gasoline, etc. This is fine. This is the cost of having friends.

For $40, I get to play with guys I would never get to see as much as I want whenever I want. Most raids are just shooting the shit anyway, so who cares? However, you do need SOMETHING new to do, or you won't bother with your friends anymore.

The cost of Destiny is a friend service fee. As a bonus, it is, in my opinion, the best PLAYING game I have ever experienced.


But if the bar's service was terrible, you'd stop going there. Sure, the beer might be the best in town, but the manager keeps hiring the same crappy band to play, and the floors and tables don't feel like they've been cleaned in weeks.

Regardless of how much something costs, it should leave you satisfied. And Destiny isn't satisfying. I feel like I'm paying $40 to sit around in the WalMart parking lot at midnight, sharing a 2 liter of Royal Crown cola.

I have friends I'd do that with essentially forever, especially if moonpies are involved.

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That's not fair.

by CyberKN ⌂ @, Oh no, Destiny 2 is bad, Monday, July 20, 2015, 18:41 (3652 days ago) @ Kermit

When you make an analogy for something that's worthless, you can't turn around and suddenly say the opposite. I feel like I'm arguing with blind fanboyism.

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That's not fair.

by iconicbanana, C2-H5-OH + NAD, Portland, OR, Monday, July 20, 2015, 18:43 (3652 days ago) @ CyberKN

When you make an analogy for something that's worthless, you can't turn around and suddenly say the opposite. I feel like I'm arguing with blind fanboyism.


You're not wrong BUT IF YOU FUCKERS (ALMOST) QUOTE THIS MOVIE I'M GOING TO POST THE SCENE.

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That's not fair.

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, July 20, 2015, 18:58 (3652 days ago) @ CyberKN

You're joking, right?

Because I was.

Buy or don't buy TTK. I'm all about letting the market decide.

I don't care except I'll miss playing with you.

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Well, moonpies are different. :P

by Funkmon @, Monday, July 20, 2015, 18:53 (3652 days ago) @ Kermit

- No text -

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Cody's right.

by Schedonnardus, Texas, Monday, July 20, 2015, 18:36 (3652 days ago) @ CyberKN

But if the bar's service was terrible, you'd stop going there. Sure, the beer might be the best in town, but the manager keeps hiring the same crappy band to play, and the floors and tables don't feel like they've been cleaned in weeks.

heh, most popular bar in my town has holes in the floor covered with old license plates, and the drop-down ceiling tiles from the 70s looks down right disgusting. There is a glass wall with live rattlesnakes in it. The urinal in the men's room is a huge stainless steel trough full of ice, b/c there isn't water hooked up to it. :)

But the service is top-notch, and the burgers are amazing.

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Cody's right.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, July 20, 2015, 18:54 (3652 days ago) @ CyberKN

That makes more sense. Yeah, I don't blame you for giving up. I thought what you were saying was that 40 bucks was too much, instead of you saying that the experience just wasn't worth pursuing at all.

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Sounds good

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, July 20, 2015, 17:54 (3652 days ago) @ CyberKN

What makes you think the oryx raid isn't going to easily top Crota's End, much less the Prison of Elders?


I'm sure the Oryx raid will be interesting, and probably better than Crota's end, but that doesn't justify a $40 price tag. Getting TTK will mean I've effectively spent $80 for two raids, because everything else in these DLCs has been worthless.

That is working under the assumption that the rest of TTK's content will be on par with the previous 2 DLCs... Certainly a fair assumption, but I can't help remain cautiously optimistic. I think Bungie put Luke Smith at the helm of TKK for good reason: he was in charge of the team that made VoG, and it ended up being widely regarded as the best part of the game. I think TKK will be an improvement over the rest of Destiny; the question is "will it be better enough?".

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Prison of Elders 2.0

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Monday, July 20, 2015, 16:47 (3652 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

I liked it mostly but feared most players would be stuck on the same default path again and again. Might I suggest three or so default paths? Have the game choose which boss they face for round 2 and let players try and change their path from there if they want to. That way everyone gets a chance to play every boss even if they're matchmade with terrible useless players.

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Possible solution

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, July 20, 2015, 17:42 (3652 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I liked it mostly but feared most players would be stuck on the same default path again and again. Might I suggest three or so default paths? Have the game choose which boss they face for round 2 and let players try and change their path from there if they want to. That way everyone gets a chance to play every boss even if they're matchmade with terrible useless players.

In my mind, the bonus objectives would be easy to complete. The fun/challenge would come from finding them. To use Star Fox as an example, one of the missions featured a branching path that involves flying your ship through a waterfall (instead of following the main path) that leads to an alternate boss and a different mission path. There's no challenge to doing it... You just fly straight at the waterfall. But there's a fun sense of discovery to finding it.

That being said, perhaps my idea should include 2 different versions of PoE. A "quest" mode, and a simple matchmaking mode that just picks some boss fights at random and throws them at you?

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Actually, you had to save Falco for that

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Monday, July 20, 2015, 17:58 (3652 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

If you saved Falco back in the city within a set amount of seconds, the game would actually force you through the waterfall. Still, you had to do something that didn't seem obvious.

There's also Katrina, where you fight an alien mothership Independence Day-style. If it blows up the base before you blow it, you go to one planet, if you manage to save the base, you go to another.

Same thing with saving the Great Fox in Sector Z.

God, I loved that game.

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Actually, you had to save Falco for that

by Vortech @, A Fourth Wheel, Monday, July 20, 2015, 19:26 (3652 days ago) @ ZackDark

If you saved Falco back in the city within a set amount of seconds, the game would actually force you through the waterfall. Still, you had to do something that didn't seem obvious.

Sick burn on Falco. Saving him would be downright antithetical. P)

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by Vortech @, A Fourth Wheel, Monday, July 20, 2015, 19:17 (3652 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

One problem I foresee is people picking the "right", "easy", or "Best" path and never doing anything else. Your idea of loot chests in the paths might be the key to that. If the chests moved the way they do in the abyss, that would possibly limit how many people think there is a "right" path, but I'm still worried about it.

It's a problem to take away the matchmake level 28. As someone who's leveling up a character from scratch on Xbox it's a very welcome part of the game and a useful break from strike playlist.

I'm all about it becoming more designed by lore. I'm sure you're tired of me talking about how stupid having a vex gate in a prison is every time we go to the vex room. Open ceilings into space are also pretty questionable.

This seems like a lot of change. it might make more sense to have a different activity that follows this model.

WOO! Checkpoints!

I don't like escort missions, and I never will. I can't forgive them for the death of my boy.

Ghost scanning terminal sounds suspiciously like talky key missions from vanilla destiny. I like the idea of special and optional objectives, but not defending the ghost while he scans.

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by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, July 20, 2015, 19:26 (3652 days ago) @ Vortech

All good points. A few things I can expand upon:

One problem I foresee is people picking the "right", "easy", or "Best" path and never doing anything else.

I like the idea of the group being able to decide exactly which bosses they fight on a case by case basis. I could see this being a bit problematic in matchmade groups, though. A possible solution that I mentioned in another post is to have 2 versions of PoE 2.0: the primary "quest" version, and then a stripped down matchmade version that just picks a few encounters at random and throws you in.


It's a problem to take away the matchmake level 28. As someone who's leveling up a character from scratch on Xbox it's a very welcome part of the game and a useful break from strike playlist.

Fair point. Perhaps a 3rd, lower difficulty setting?

I don't like escort missions, and I never will. I can't forgive them for the death of my boy.

I don't usually like them either, but they worked really well in Mass Effect 3 for a few reasons. From my other post:

"First of all, the thing you are escorting can't die, so that's a big frustration out of the way. And the drone in ME would actually attack enemies if it was fully powered (your entire team was standing around it). This is another cool feature, IMO.

Also, the way you complete the escort is somewhat flexible. If your entire team crowds around the ghost, it will be riskier (you're all somewhat exposed) but the ghost will move faster. Alternatively, you could have 1 or 2 guardians handle the escort duties while the rest of the fireteam provides cover from a safe spot."


Ghost scanning terminal sounds suspiciously like talky key missions from vanilla destiny. I like the idea of special and optional objectives, but not defending the ghost while he scans.

Scanning a terminal to unlock a branching path was just an idea off the top of my head... I didn't imagine a scenario where you would then have to stand around and wait while the ghost takes its time... more just a quick simple scan to trigger the alternate path. But other objectives could fill this roll just as well, if not better.

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by Vortech @, A Fourth Wheel, Monday, July 20, 2015, 19:44 (3652 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

I like the idea of the group being able to decide exactly which bosses they fight on a case by case basis. I could see this being a bit problematic in matchmake groups, though.

I'm good with that too, I just want to make sure that there is something that keeps people from deciding exactly to fight the exact same set of bosses every time (shades of not preventing templar teleports and running past most of a strike). Perhaps if each boss dropped a different kind of currency that you need to level items P)

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by dogcow @, Hiding from Bob, in the vent core., Monday, July 20, 2015, 19:55 (3652 days ago) @ Vortech

I like the idea of the group being able to decide exactly which bosses they fight on a case by case basis. I could see this being a bit problematic in matchmake groups, though.


I'm good with that too, I just want to make sure that there is something that keeps people from deciding exactly to fight the exact same set of bosses every time (shades of not preventing templar teleports and running past most of a strike). Perhaps if each boss dropped a different kind of currency that you need to level items P)

Then people would whine and complain about gating, artificially increasing the amount of time required to level gear. I agree, I like your idea of giving an incentive to fight other bosses. Maybe this could be done by randomly picking which of the next bosses have a chest drop & indicating it somewhere over the exit doors which it will be? That way they could choose if they want an easier boss on the way to the end or an additional loot drop.

Can we have a jump puzzle for one of the 'bosses' please? Maybe some gorgons too? ;) (I'm serious here, I love those bits of the VoG & how they change things up).

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by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, July 21, 2015, 21:49 (3651 days ago) @ dogcow

Then people would whine and complain about gating, artificially increasing the amount of time required to level gear. I agree, I like your idea of giving an incentive to fight other bosses.

Why couldn't the incentive be "I haven't fought this boss before and want to try something new?"

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^^^ This ^^^

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Tuesday, July 21, 2015, 23:26 (3651 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Sometimes, empowering the player with the ability to make choices is inherently compelling. Players will take different routes simply because they can.

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^^^ This ^^^

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, July 21, 2015, 23:56 (3651 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Sometimes, empowering the player with the ability to make choices is inherently compelling. Players will take different routes simply because they can.

You realize you're talking about the same people that would willing spend hours upon boring hours standing outside a cave shooting enemies right?

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Yeah, no kidding.

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Wednesday, July 22, 2015, 00:07 (3651 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Designing for the ideal player who likes finding new challenges "just because" is nice but won't hold up one single day in the real world. PoE 2.0 will immediately become "Treasure Farm the easiest path while ignoring all the others" unless you take a bit of control and force new experiences on them. And even then you're going to be flooded with Youtube videos of people bailing if they get a boss who is a smidge harder than the ideal path.

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Yeah, no kidding.

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Wednesday, July 22, 2015, 00:25 (3651 days ago) @ Ragashingo

Designing for the ideal player who likes finding new challenges "just because" is nice but won't hold up one single day in the real world. PoE 2.0 will immediately become "Treasure Farm the easiest path while ignoring all the others" unless you take a bit of control and force new experiences on them. And even then you're going to be flooded with Youtube videos of people bailing if they get a boss who is a smidge harder than the ideal path.

PoE 2.0 could retain the rotating modifiers, so each boss fight would be slightly different 1 week to the next. This would help mix things up in terms of experience and difficulty (the easiest path one week wouldn't be the easiest path the next week).

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Yeah, no kidding.

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Wednesday, July 22, 2015, 14:30 (3650 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Good idea. As much as I like Cody's theory, real-world players will just farm whatever gets them rewards fastest and/or most easily. Changing which path is actually easiest on a random basis seems like a good compromise, as long as they're all still doable without a ton of cheese.

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^^^ This plus more ^^^

by Vortech @, A Fourth Wheel, Wednesday, July 22, 2015, 20:05 (3650 days ago) @ cheapLEY

And even if there are some true adventurers, I expect they will be outmoded and shouted down if there is a Fastest/bestest loot path.

We may as well say why fix Atheon, it;s more fun to fight him; why fix the Templar, Cheesing him removes all the teamwork; why have a hidden treasure chest, people will block teleport for the fun of it.

It works for us, but for the population at large it's a loot game and that means you need to think about where your carrot and stick are driving behaviors.

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by dogcow @, Hiding from Bob, in the vent core., Tuesday, July 21, 2015, 23:28 (3651 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I don't know. I'd really like to see some numbers/studies to see if people need an incentive to bother finding/trying other routes. Perhaps an incentive at the end is a deterrent to exploration.

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by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Tuesday, July 21, 2015, 23:35 (3651 days ago) @ dogcow

I don't know. I'd really like to see some numbers/studies to see if people need an incentive to bother finding/trying other routes. Perhaps an incentive at the end is a deterrent to exploration.

I think that some people would probably just go down the default path a couple of times, and that's it. But I think people (like us) who play a lot of Destiny will naturally try to find new things to do. If you've already beaten the default path 4 times, why wouldn't you try to search for some of the alternate paths so you could see the other boss fights?

If that doesn't end up being enough, a few hidden Ghosts might help :)

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by slycrel ⌂, Thursday, July 23, 2015, 06:29 (3649 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Yeah, just like we tried to kill the wizards on hard crota jsut to see if we could find another strategy.

oh wait. ;)

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by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Wednesday, July 22, 2015, 14:35 (3650 days ago) @ dogcow

I think the concern isn't that people wouldn't try each path initially - they probably would. The concern is that after all routes had been explored, people might just settle into whichever route they found easiest or fastest, and never do the others. Having a loot drop that changes locations would encourage players to keep changing their route up.

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