Destiny 2 - Year 2 Reveal Stream is Live

https://www.twitch.tv/bungie

More updates on this story as it develops...

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Everything about this that I am seeing looks awesome.

We get a MFING COMPOUND BOW!

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But at least it looks more fun-focused than the previous two expansions in D2.

Also, I'm pretty tired of how many times Bungie (DeeJ specifically) has claimed that something is "the beginning of a conversation" before going completely silent outside of Roadmap updates. There are more parts to a conversation than beginnings, folks.

And boy are they having an awkward time pitching their Year 2 season pass...

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Play Rumble."

Well then...

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Play Rumble."

Well then...

This is a weird complaint I hear that must be something that a minority is vocal about. I've been playing the competitive playlist solo, and steadily moving up. Yesterday I gained 150 glory. I'm not that often put against 4 stacks. And when I am, it's usually competitive because I think they still do SBMM. For every blowout where we get stomped, there is a blowout where we stomp.

According to Destiny Tracker, I'm winning 52% of competitive matches. I've been playing for about a week exclusively, and I've got about 850 glory. Given that I'm by no means the best crucible player and I'm going in solo most of the time, I am really not experiencing what everyone else is.

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Play Rumble."

Well then...

I am really not experiencing what everyone else is.

Okay, Kermit.

Anyway, the compaint has always been pretty common on the subreddit and Bnet forums (obviously common enough that DeeJ directly acknowledged it), but I think you missed the point of the post, where DeeJ was just dismissive of this longstanding bit of criticism by essentially saying "just play the gametype with no teams".

I mean, I have no issue jumping into anything solo, but as always, just because I'm not having an issue with it, doesn't mean that it's not a real issue for others.

Let's remember that, kids.

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Why would you go into a team based activity and then complain about getting matched with full teams? You can have that, or you can have longer wait times. People bitched about matchmaking in D1 for not prioritizing connection. They can’t prioritize everything. At a certain point, it just is the way it is. Deal with it or get some friends. It’s absolutely not difficult to find folks to play with, especially for people that are aware enough to get their bitching directly to Bungie. They clearly know where Destiny players congregate—they should try making friends with some of them.

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Why would you go into a team based activity and then complain about getting matched with full teams?

"Why would people want to play the game differently than I do?"

I think the biggest issue is that there are zero alternatives. In D1, you had two different Freelance playlists that you could hop into without worrying about stacked teams.
But if you want to play Crucible, you have to hop into one of their tiny selection of playlists.

You can have that, or you can have longer wait times. People bitched about matchmaking in D1 for not prioritizing connection.

Pretty sure that the people complaining about connection priority were not the same people who preferred a fair match. Don't generalize the different groups of players. If Bungie would get rid of their obnoxious loading screens and ridiculously long post-game screens, it would help a bunch, too.

They can’t prioritize everything.

I think it has to do with the size of the studio, but Bungie has always been terrible at prioritizing, and it comes as a detriment to the whole game. Obviously, as the population has become a shadow of what it once was...

They clearly know where Destiny players congregate—they should try making friends with some of them.

You're not wrong, but you clearly overestimate the ease with which socializing (or the desire to socialize) comes to lots of folks. Or in my case, just because I want to play a Crucible match or two, I don't want to take ten minutes to assemble a team. I just want to play a match.

Heck, I don't think I've ever accepted a single post-match friend request or fireteam invite. I didn't hop into Crucible to commit to a team. Half the time, I don't even join Sammy's team when we play the same game (especially not if she's with her group of friends).

Should Bungie cater to players like me? Not necessarily. But would it kill them to give me the choice? Let me set my preferences like they used to. Give me a single "Freelance" switch or playlist. Anything is better than just dismissingly saying "go play Rumble". Especially since I hate Rumble playlists in pretty much any game.

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Sorry, I’m not trying to be dismissive. But you’ve made my point for me:

Pretty sure that the people complaining about connection priority were not the same people who preferred a fair match. Don't generalize the different groups of players. If Bungie would get rid of their obnoxious loading screens and ridiculously long post-game screens, it would help a bunch, too.

They can’t cater to everyone. Every time Bungie does anything, some other group pops up and starts yelling. At a certain point, someone just loses. I don’t think you’re asking too much here, it all makes sense. But what would have to be put on the back burner to make it happen?

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Play Rumble."

Well then...

I am really not experiencing what everyone else is.

Okay, Kermit.

Anyway, the compaint has always been pretty common on the subreddit and Bnet forums (obviously common enough that DeeJ directly acknowledged it), but I think you missed the point of the post, where DeeJ was just dismissive of this longstanding bit of criticism by essentially saying "just play the gametype with no teams".

I mean, I have no issue jumping into anything solo, but as always, just because I'm not having an issue with it, doesn't mean that it's not a real issue for others.

Let's remember that, kids.

And my point is that just because people complain about it doesn’t mean it’s widespread. A vocal minority and all that. I can only speak for my own experience, but it’s possible the complainers are just bad at the game.

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Play Rumble."

Well then...

I am really not experiencing what everyone else is.

Okay, Kermit.

Huh? What are you saying?

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Play Rumble."

Well then...

I am really not experiencing what everyone else is.

Okay, Kermit.

Huh? What are you saying?

He's trying to invoke your name as if it's a slander rather than the compliment we all know it really is when one likens us to you.

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Play Rumble."

Well then...

I am really not experiencing what everyone else is.

Okay, Kermit.

Huh? What are you saying?

He's trying to invoke your name as if it's a slander rather than the compliment we all know it really is when one likens us to you.

Thanks for the compliment, and I suspect you're right about his intention. I prefer insults delivered explicitly and directly rather than in snide asides, though. All the better to acknowledge the fault or defend myself.

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Play Rumble."

Well then...

I am really not experiencing what everyone else is.

Okay, Kermit.

Huh? What are you saying?

He's trying to invoke your name as if it's a slander rather than the compliment we all know it really is when one likens us to you.

Thanks for the compliment, and I suspect you're right about his intention. I prefer insults delivered explicitly and directly rather than in snide asides, though. All the better to acknowledge the fault or defend myself.

It's clear how he meant it, however you want to play your interpretation. And you know perfectly well why he puts it that way. There have been arguments outside this forum where you've taken a particular tack, much to his (and my) irritation. Given the same sets of facts, and similar intellectual abilities; you both draw disparate conclusions based on experience and perspective. As people do.

Let's not bring (or continue) the contention here, and let's not be disingenuous about recognizing the truth. The reason I (and I suspect many others) consider this place a home is the drastic difference in singal:noise.

Let's keep it that way.

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Play Rumble."

Well then...

I am really not experiencing what everyone else is.

Okay, Kermit.

Huh? What are you saying?

He's trying to invoke your name as if it's a slander rather than the compliment we all know it really is when one likens us to you.

Thanks for the compliment, and I suspect you're right about his intention. I prefer insults delivered explicitly and directly rather than in snide asides, though. All the better to acknowledge the fault or defend myself.

It's clear how he meant it, however you want to play your interpretation. And you know perfectly well why he puts it that way. There have been arguments outside this forum where you've taken a particular tack, much to his (and my) irritation. Given the same sets of facts, and similar intellectual abilities; you both draw disparate conclusions based on experience and perspective. As people do.

Let's not bring (or continue) the contention here, and let's not be disingenuous about recognizing the truth. The reason I (and I suspect many others) consider this place a home is the drastic difference in singal:noise.

Let's keep it that way.

~M

Is it clear?

Although I have my suspicions, I don't know perfectly well what Korny is thinking because I'm not psychic (similarly, I don't know what you mean by contention or truth). That's why I asked him for clarification--let's get to the nub of whatever it is he thinks my name is shorthand for.

I mean, ban me for continuing if you must, and I wouldn't except I believe it's relevant to discussions here. I've seen at least two kinds of arrogance on display--there's the old Cody kind of arrogance (that he doesn't indulges in as much anymore--that's a compliment, Cody), which is that my opinion is the absolute truth and no other point of view is worthy of acknowledgement. The second kind I'd characterize as assumed omniscience, not just about your own opinion and reasoning, but also about those who hold opposing opinions, their reasoning, their knowledge, their experience, the biases that led them to their wrong opinion, and what they really mean by what they say. People guilty of this kind often say things like "you know perfectly well why."

In my view, Korny's certainly guilty of the latter kind of arrogance in this thread, but I didn't engage him on that. I asked a simple question--what is he getting at by invoking my name?--a question I think I have a right to ask.

He can respond to me privately by the way. I'd like to hash it out because I think it could lead to a better friendship, and I'd rather not litter the forum with all this personal stuff, but he made it personal, and so did you.

One final point about argumentation in general. If I can't argue from both sides, if I can't summarize someone else's argument such that they agree with my summary, then I don't understand their argument, and I'm probably guilty of the kind of arrogance I've described. I state that from my point of view to remind myself that humility is a necessary component for listening and learning.

Kerm

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Play Rumble."

Well then...

I am really not experiencing what everyone else is.

Okay, Kermit.

Huh? What are you saying?

He's trying to invoke your name as if it's a slander rather than the compliment we all know it really is when one likens us to you.

Thanks for the compliment, and I suspect you're right about his intention. I prefer insults delivered explicitly and directly rather than in snide asides, though. All the better to acknowledge the fault or defend myself.

It's clear how he meant it, however you want to play your interpretation. And you know perfectly well why he puts it that way. There have been arguments outside this forum where you've taken a particular tack, much to his (and my) irritation. Given the same sets of facts, and similar intellectual abilities; you both draw disparate conclusions based on experience and perspective. As people do.

Let's not bring (or continue) the contention here, and let's not be disingenuous about recognizing the truth. The reason I (and I suspect many others) consider this place a home is the drastic difference in singal:noise.

Let's keep it that way.

~M

Is it clear?

Although I have my suspicions, I don't know perfectly well what Korny is thinking because I'm not psychic (similarly, I don't know what you mean by contention or truth). That's why I asked him for clarification--let's get to the nub of whatever it is he thinks my name is shorthand for.

No, this is precisely not the thing we're going to do. Because this is not the place. This is precisely what I warned you about. Take it elsewhere. I'm well aware that Korny invoked your name. It was not the comment that I would have made, but I've been granted some responsibility here, and I'm not about to let things devolve into a slugfest.

I mean, ban me for continuing if you must, and I wouldn't except I believe it's relevant to discussions here.

Except that you have the discretion to choose not to, and you press on anyway.

In my view, Korny's certainly guilty of the latter kind of arrogance in this thread, but I didn't engage him on that. I asked a simple question--what is he getting at by invoking my name?--a question I think I have a right to ask.

Do it elsewhere. The two of you go at it regularly enough outside of this forum, it should be clear by now. And if it's not and you want that clarity, sort it out like adults. Creating a spectacle here only serves to negatively impact this environment.

He can respond to me privately by the way.

Then I suggest you engage him privately.

Perhaps I need to be more explicit in my warnings; but then again, we're all reasonably intelligent individuals here. It shouldn't be necessary.

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Let's watch it here. Using someone's name as a veiled insult is basically a personal attack so consider this a warning.

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But at least it looks more fun-focused than the previous two expansions in D2.

Don't know where that assumption came from? They said that next week will be the story reveal and that the main release will be story focused. However, the future releases for the rest of the year will be less consequential. Honestly, I came to terms with this recently: Destiny can not support a traditional narrative experience. I'm not going to get what I want in that respect out of the game, and Bungie has realized they can't maintain that either. Major story beats on major releases is the only way to do it and that's what they're doing.

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But at least it looks more fun-focused than the previous two expansions in D2.

Don't know where that assumption came from? They said that next week will be the story reveal and that the main release will be story focused.

DeeJ stated that he wanted to set people's expectations on this expansion lower, because there wouldn't be as much of a cinematic focus as previous expansions (fewer cutscenes and such), as it was more about the gameplay/grind.

Major story beats on major releases is the only way to do it

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But at least it looks more fun-focused than the previous two expansions in D2.

Don't know where that assumption came from? They said that next week will be the story reveal and that the main release will be story focused.

DeeJ stated that he wanted to set people's expectations on this expansion lower, because there wouldn't be as much of a cinematic focus as previous expansions (fewer cutscenes and such), as it was more about the gameplay/grind.

Pretty sure Deej was only talking about the the stuff coming from the new Season Pass thingy. I'm not holding my breath for an amazing story in the yearly release, but I do think it's important to be precise in our criticisms.

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But at least it looks more fun-focused than the previous two expansions in D2.

Don't know where that assumption came from? They said that next week will be the story reveal and that the main release will be story focused.

DeeJ stated that he wanted to set people's expectations on this expansion lower, because there wouldn't be as much of a cinematic focus as previous expansions (fewer cutscenes and such), as it was more about the gameplay/grind.

Pretty sure Deej was only talking about the stuff coming from the new Season Pass thingy. I'm not holding my breath for an amazing story in the yearly release, but I do think it's important to be precise in our criticisms.

He was definitely talking about the Season Pass, not Forsaken. My hope is that this allows the cinematics team to do more in the annual releases.

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But at least it looks more fun-focused than the previous two expansions in D2.

Don't know where that assumption came from? They said that next week will be the story reveal and that the main release will be story focused.

DeeJ stated that he wanted to set people's expectations on this expansion lower, because there wouldn't be as much of a cinematic focus as previous expansions (fewer cutscenes and such), as it was more about the gameplay/grind.

Pretty sure Deej was only talking about the stuff coming from the new Season Pass thingy. I'm not holding my breath for an amazing story in the yearly release, but I do think it's important to be precise in our criticisms.

He was definitely talking about the Season Pass, not Forsaken. My hope is that this allows the cinematics team to do more in the annual releases.

Could have sworn that he was talking about that before diving into the season pass. Which also reminds me. Will this expansion be included in the Year 2 season pass, or is that something that we have to buy on top of the expansion itself, as if it were a full release? And what's happening to the Live team?
And what are the Microtransactions paying for?

Still waiting on that "conversation".

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But at least it looks more fun-focused than the previous two expansions in D2.

Don't know where that assumption came from? They said that next week will be the story reveal and that the main release will be story focused.

DeeJ stated that he wanted to set people's expectations on this expansion lower, because there wouldn't be as much of a cinematic focus as previous expansions (fewer cutscenes and such), as it was more about the gameplay/grind.

Pretty sure Deej was only talking about the stuff coming from the new Season Pass thingy. I'm not holding my breath for an amazing story in the yearly release, but I do think it's important to be precise in our criticisms.

He was definitely talking about the Season Pass, not Forsaken. My hope is that this allows the cinematics team to do more in the annual releases.

Could have sworn that he was talking about that before diving into the season pass.

Nope. The Annual Pass screen was up when he spoke about that.

Which also reminds me. Will this expansion be included in the Year 2 season pass, or is that something that we have to buy on top of the expansion itself, as if it were a full release? And what's happening to the Live team?
And what are the Microtransactions paying for?

Still waiting on that "conversation".

Haven't read the rest of the thread, but the prices are live. Expansion is $40, Annual Pass is $35, and combo is $70. As of right now the expansion seems worth it, the Annual Pass is questionable until more details.

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Is that a tiny man standing on a regular gun, or a regular-sized man standing on a giant gun?

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Fine print states:

"Destiny 2 expansions I & II required"

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In your face Louis Wu. Bulk shader deletion on road map. Enjoy the early carpel tunnel you developed while mocking me for storing them all in my vault. My gambit that they would fix it before I ran out of space paid off! :-)

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Collections are back, making Vault Space irrelevant, but they're still giving you 200 extra slots anyway!

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Collections are back, making Vault Space irrelevant, but they're still giving you 200 extra slots anyway!

If such becomes the case for Legendarys, then possibly, but even then with the random rolls in the mix again, the vault space is now more crucial then ever.

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That I'll buy it, likely.

That I'll desire to get to the end-game content, not looking as sure as it did in D1. Bungie has already beat that out of me. Can they rekindle the fire? Time will tell.

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The ViDoc was an absolute blast. There’s still some stuff they need to tell us about, how weapons slots work and what’s up with the season pass thingy, but man on man the rest looks very good. Of course, I want to know more about story, but it sounds like that is coming. I’m wondering if these Fallen Barrens are the ones mentioned in the Maraid, since there are at least a couple who were captured instead of being killed... but we killed off a lot of those Fallen already during House of Wolves. It does sound like there will be a new “story book” which is great since both the Book Of Sorrows and the Maraid.

Still, looks like I’m getting Death From Above back for my Striker. I don’t think I ever saw a new Void Titan unless that “Void Fire” Titan hanging in the air in that scene in the EDZ (where the Sentinel puts down a bubble) is some sort of new (flying?!) Void Titan Super... So yeah, I’m already happy.

Oh, and learning about the Awoken, which are one of Destiny’s last remaining big mysteries, intrigues me!

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If they claim it has a wild west theme and don't give me a poncho for my hunter, then they have let me down.

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If they claim it has a wild west theme and don't give me a poncho for my hunter, then they have let me down.

You can have a poncho, but it’s orange and unaffected by shaders.

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If they claim it has a wild west theme and don't give me a poncho for my hunter, then they have let me down.

You can have a poncho, but it’s orange and unaffected by shaders.

My reaction.

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If they claim it has a wild west theme and don't give me a poncho for my hunter, then they have let me down.

You can have a poncho, but it’s orange and unaffected by shaders.

The ultimate poncho!

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If they claim it has a wild west theme and don't give me a poncho for my hunter, then they have let me down.

You can have a poncho, but it’s orange and unaffected by shaders.

The ultimate poncho!

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If that's the case, I never wanna be anything but.

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Can't it be September already!?

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Loved the vidoc. Can't wait.

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Now to go "RTFM" (WTFV?)...

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I hope what they do is have some traits be static for each weapon and some be rolled. I feel like each named weapon needs more than what D1 had to be consistent from drop to drop.

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I hope what they do is have some traits be static for each weapon and some be rolled. I feel like each named weapon needs more than what D1 had to be consistent from drop to drop.

The obvious fix would have been the weapon variants, so that you'd have multiple rolls per weapon.

Halfdan-D, for example, is a lousy Auto Rifle.
You could have a Halfdan-A that has High Caliber Rounds and Moving Target perks. That weapon would wreck!
But some might like the Halfdan-B, or C, or...

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I hope what they do is have some traits be static for each weapon and some be rolled. I feel like each named weapon needs more than what D1 had to be consistent from drop to drop.

The obvious fix would have been the weapon variants, so that you'd have multiple rolls per weapon.

Halfdan-D, for example, is a lousy Auto Rifle.
You could have a Halfdan-A that has High Caliber Rounds and Moving Target perks. That weapon would wreck!
But some might like the Halfdan-B, or C, or...

This has been my vision for weapon rolls... you could have a plenty of weapon rolls this way, but the weapon names would have meaning (tho' I prefer having fewer variants, I don't have time to chase the god-roll/drop). If they must exist I see this as the better way.

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Destiny launched September 9, 2014. And in that time, I have had a most… tenuous? abusive? feckless?… eh… I’ll keep it simple and say aggravating relationship with this franchise. It’s… SO COOL! It has SO MUCH POTENTIAL! And yet – almost to bring me in awe, how Bungie has always managed to miss the mark in some way. This has been true for me up to this point as I post this.

SO as I have sit here watching this preview of what is to come; I have to say it looks GREAT! Because of course it does. Basically everything else has too, and now with retrospect I'm here with nothing but a deep *sigh* to keep check of my memory. Yet watching this, I get a feeling that Bungie – collectively – has finally figured this shit out. FINALLY! And yet… Baby, Don’t Hurt Me. No More. Don’t get my hopes up just so I can bleed again. Stop. Dam it stop.

No more.

I’m also expecting the story delivery to suck, so whatever.

[image]

With that said, these are my thoughts.

Ahem. HOLY SHIT HOLY SHITHOLY SHIT HOLY SHITHOLY SHIT HOLY SHITHOLY SHIT HOLY SHITHOLY SHIT HOLY SHITHOLY SHIT HOLY SHITHOLY SHIT HOLY SHITHOLY SHIT HOLY SHITHOLY SHIT HOLY SHIT HOLY SHIT … THEY FREEKING DID IT! THEY GAVE THE HUNTER SOLAR KNIVES! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA… oh and the other supers are awesome too, because Duh! Yet this is the bigger deal to me quite obviously.

I should explain.

I’ve been yammering on about the Solar Hunter Super since Destiny launch. I can't seem to find the number of instances where I mention my thoughts on it, but I very briefly mentioned my utter boredom for it in my Destiny 2 Beta Thoughts. But somewhere... somewhere deep within the recesses of this forum here that I, after an hour of search could not seem to find, where I mentioned my rendition of what I would have made the Hunter solar super be. Where I explain in detail how I would have it be a set of Solar knives, and I recall Korny mention that such did sound cool.

Well... here it FREEKING is! I'm truly ecstatic to get my hands on it.
The new mode, “Gambit”, is basically Competitive Firefight. I would have played a standard firefight and been quite content. By adding a competitive human element, Bungie may have very likely turned this mode to 11 and I look forward to putting it to its paces. This mode is sorely needed.
My Actual words when I saw “Annual Pass” - Ah shit.

Am I surprised? Nah. It's just the DLC track record that's all. They say it's going to be different this time. Well, I guess we'll see.
New Roadmap.

All I really care about at this point is organization, and ease of use. If Bungie can get the aspects of the game out of my way, as far as I'm concerned it'll be the best thing ever to happen to this game. Get the game out of the way, so I can play the game.
I’m not surprised that the Compound Bow is now in Destiny, as it was THE thing to have in a videogame in awhile. And it’s for a good reason – it’s fun to use. Look forward to useing this.
Lore Collection.

If it wasn’t for what they are doing for Faction Rally 2.0, I would possibly find the potential of this aspect promising. Now? Not a gosh darn'd thing. Isn't that just awful.

I expect more thoughts to come, but these here the bits the jumped out at me on the initial viewing.

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You know how that lyric goes...oh wait, no, you don't. Geez, I'm old.

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Bungie is going to have to earn this one. I hate to say it, but I will be waiting for reviews (from websites and people I trust). Not getting suckered. Bungie has been great at hype with Destiny 2, but not a lot beyond that. And that $35 expansion pass? Hell no. They are not getting any prepaid money from me ever again until they move on to a new franchise. Their DLC and expansions just aren’t worth it. Especially when they’re flaunting $10 emotes.

Tl;dr, sure these things look great on the surface, but it’s just looks and talk until it has been launched. Gotten plenty of that from Bungie regarding Destiny. Gonna have to earn these dollars.

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I understand where you're coming from. I've enjoyed everything they've put for D2 so far, though, so they already got my $70.

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I understand where you're coming from. I've enjoyed everything they've put for D2 so far, though, so they already got my $70.

Agreed, but I guess I've got a fanboy rep so no one is surprised. The other thing, though, is that it's a social club. The membership fee is worth it to me.

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I understand where you're coming from. I've enjoyed everything they've put for D2 so far, though, so they already got my $70.

Agreed, but I guess I've got a fanboy rep so no one is surprised. The other thing, though, is that it's a social club. The membership fee is worth it to me.

That’s a good way to look at it. I like playing Destiny with you folks enough that there’s basically no circumstance in which I wouldn’t buy a new expansion. Might as well give them the money now and be done with it, and get the neat goodies to go with it.

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I understand where you're coming from. I've enjoyed everything they've put for D2 so far, though, so they already got my $70.

Agreed, but I guess I've got a fanboy rep so no one is surprised. The other thing, though, is that it's a social club. The membership fee is worth it to me.

That’s a good way to look at it. I like playing Destiny with you folks enough that there’s basically no circumstance in which I wouldn’t buy a new expansion. Might as well give them the money now and be done with it, and get the neat goodies to go with it.

Yeah, this is one of my hobbies that I have with friends. Considering it's only like 200 bucks a year, which is incredibly cheap considering other hobbies :D

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Yeah, this is one of my hobbies that I have with friends. Considering it's only like 200 bucks a year, which is incredibly cheap considering other hobbies :D

::slips house remodel under some loose papers::

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Yeah, this is one of my hobbies that I have with friends. Considering it's only like 200 bucks a year, which is incredibly cheap considering other hobbies :D

Yeah, but it makes you sedentary and unhealthy which will end up costing you in the long run :-p

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20 reps on a multi-exercise circuit between crucible matches, 5 every destination change, and 50 between strikes is a pretty easy way to keep in most shapes.

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Pretty sweet, but…

If the city that the raid takes place in is in fact different in the second or third week, then Bungie has to make a way for people to experience it in week one without grinding themselves to death.

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Pretty sweet, but…

If the city that the raid takes place in is in fact different in the second or third week, then Bungie has to make a way for people to experience it in week one without grinding themselves to death.

Hopefully they hold it back for two or three weeks.

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Pretty sweet, but…

If the city that the raid takes place in is in fact different in the second or third week, then Bungie has to make a way for people to experience it in week one without grinding themselves to death.

Hopefully they hold it back for two or three weeks.

So I didn't know if they meant that when the fireteam leader starts the raid it changes each time or if ANYONE does something it changes the raid. It seems more reasonable if it's fireteam but I would need to rewatch the live stream again.

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I'm expecting that it will be nothing more than new areas opening up over time. Maybe more, but that's just my gut feeling.

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The way my brain interpreted it was that spaces would start opening up for additional exploration as the community continued completing Raids.

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To me, it really sounded like the were saying things would change based on the wider community accomplishing things.

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Pretty sweet, but…

If the city that the raid takes place in is in fact different in the second or third week, then Bungie has to make a way for people to experience it in week one without grinding themselves to death.

I okay not experiencing every version. It's still nice to have them.

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There are tons of solid points and thoughts with regards to what Bungie is delivering and asking of players with Year 2 of Destiny. Much like with his Warmind review, I don't entirely agree with him (I definitely found Warmind and the update that came with it to be worth my time), but it's really hard to argue with the way he presents his thoughts.

Key thoughts:

-How much are you willing to pay to get the game that you should have received at launch? "Forsaken is a retreat to the best parts of Destiny 1", as he puts it (a lot of it has to do with general changes that will affect everyone, even those without the DLC).

-Bungie continues to embrace player-unfriendly practices, and the Year 2 season pass is yet another example of that. (All of the promised content in the $35 season pass is stuff that the Live Team gave us for free, from SRL to Age of Triumph, with the understanding that Eververse was paying for that. Bungie is clearly trying to make up for poor Microtransaction sales by asking players for a chunk of change up front to continue to get what we were supposed to be getting from a Live Service game, while still refusing to phase out Destiny's Eververse prominence.)

-The Annual Pass content should be stuff that we get in addition to DLC like Warmind, not in lieu of. (Despite having four studios working on the game, we were pretty explicitly told to lower our expectations for Year 2. If you recall noclip's interview with Rebecca Ford on Community Management, she pointed out that this approach is a huge misstep for a developer with a live game. Scrapping big content releases in favor of trickling out content over a longer period will not build or sustain your playerbase. You have to do both.
Rewatching DeeJ pitch the weaker-but-same-price Season Pass was just as painful as the first time that he stumbled through it. You're not fooling people, man...)

-Bungie shouldn't be forcing that you buy Curse of Osiris in order to buy Forsaken. Given the situation that Bungie has put themselves in, it's a lot to ask (as he puts it, Value is relative, but Bungie's goodwill bank is empty).

-But the Expansion itself looks great, and easily worth the $40 asking price if it's anything like The Taken King. (I'm still cautious, because this is the same Bungie that hyped up Lost Sectors, Guided Games, and 4v4 as gamechangers.

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-How much are you willing to pay to get the game that you should have received at launch? "Forsaken is a retreat to the best parts of Destiny 1", as he puts it (a lot of it has to do with general changes that will affect everyone, even those without the DLC).

I hate this narrative so fucking much. The game we got at launch was a damn good game, and better than D1 in just about every way. I guess I’m in the minority on that line of thinking.

I’ll watch the video later today, but I just had to throw that out there.

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-How much are you willing to pay to get the game that you should have received at launch? "Forsaken is a retreat to the best parts of Destiny 1", as he puts it (a lot of it has to do with general changes that will affect everyone, even those without the DLC).

I hate this narrative so fucking much. The game we got at launch was a damn good game, and better than D1 in just about every way. I guess I’m in the minority on that line of thinking.

I’ll watch the video later today, but I just had to throw that out there.

Yeah... I like D2 more than D1. I don't want to go back to D1. And I bought exactly what I wanted, a good game that I can play with friends.

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-How much are you willing to pay to get the game that you should have received at launch? "Forsaken is a retreat to the best parts of Destiny 1", as he puts it (a lot of it has to do with general changes that will affect everyone, even those without the DLC).

I hate this narrative so fucking much. The game we got at launch was a damn good game,

Right. As he said himself back then, launch D2 was a good game, but a disappointing Destiny sequel.

and better than D1 in just about every way. I guess I’m in the minority on that line of thinking.

Clearly, given the player count.
I think where he's coming from is from a sense of ambition. To Bungie, Destiny 2 wasn't a leap forward from Destiny 1, it was a do-over. It was the "clean slate" that they wanted to experiment and overhaul, and while a number of changes were indeed great, a huge number were pretty terrible, and Forsaken is not just them reversing these changes, it's them actually showing ambition.
New Supers versus streamlining the subclasses?
New game modes versus condensing the playlists?
Challenges for rewards and Lore versus Eververse engrams?
Freely-customizable loadouts versus limiting Specials and Heavy?

Which of these seem like a step forward from D1, and which are poor changes? Which would you have rather have had at launch? If shown well before D2, which would you have believed we were getting?

I’ll watch the video later today, but I just had to throw that out there.

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-How much are you willing to pay to get the game that you should have received at launch? "Forsaken is a retreat to the best parts of Destiny 1", as he puts it (a lot of it has to do with general changes that will affect everyone, even those without the DLC).

I hate this narrative so fucking much. The game we got at launch was a damn good game, and better than D1 in just about every way. I guess I’m in the minority on that line of thinking.

You're not. And I couldn't watch this video past the halfway point (he made argument after argument that made my eyes roll, until he claimed that Destiny 2's base game was "a shitty launch product" - at which point I said "enough" and closed the window).

His perception of this game is so far outside the universe of my own perceptions that I can't even listen to his arguments.

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-How much are you willing to pay to get the game that you should have received at launch? "Forsaken is a retreat to the best parts of Destiny 1", as he puts it (a lot of it has to do with general changes that will affect everyone, even those without the DLC).

I hate this narrative so fucking much. The game we got at launch was a damn good game, and better than D1 in just about every way. I guess I’m in the minority on that line of thinking.

You're not. And I couldn't watch this video past the halfway point (he made argument after argument that made my eyes roll, until he claimed that Destiny 2's base game was "a shitty launch product" - at which point I said "enough" and closed the window).

His perception of this game is so far outside the universe of my own perceptions that I can't even listen to his arguments.

While I had issues with the endgame in Destiny 2's launch product, I felt that the first run through (before any changes were made) was quite solid. I even think the token system is a great idea, it just needed some work and some more content to support it.

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until he claimed that Destiny 2's base game was "a shitty launch product"

Contextually, he was calling it that in regards to a perspective shared by many fans, with regards to the DLC itself being used as a "mea culpa". He disagreed with that view himself. It pays to actually pay attention to what's being said. ;)

That said, Destiny 2 at launch was pretty terrible, and Bungie themselves acknowledged it by scrambling to fix their mistakes, as opposed to building on the experience with actual content.
That said, you can like Destiny 2, while also acknowledging that it's been a real mess. Bungie lied to the players repeatedly. They regurgitated "we're listening" at everyone until their throats were dry. It's on record.

His perception of this game is so far outside the universe of my own perceptions that I can't even listen to his arguments.

Claude's veering towards the Right, I see. :P

I think you're hopping in there looking to be annoyed and to disagree. It helps to be, if not open to believing the perspectives of others, at least open to trying to understand why they have that view. Clearly it's not uncommon. The facts speak for themselves, and not only has D2 done poorly from a financial standpoint, but if you follow DestinyTracker's stats, the number of people playing the game on average has been the lowest in Destiny history (minus the significant bump that Warmind has given it over the past few weeks).

You may think the game has been perfectly fine since launch, but Bungie hasn't been able to coast off of the people who share the same view like they did during D1. Because you're clearly in the minority.

Most people who aren't happy with the game won't go online to complain about it, they'll just stop playing. And there's so much great stuff out there, and so many games that don't make the same dumb mistakes that Bungie does, that nobody's really feeling like they're missing out to the point where they're coming back to do more than checking out the latest DLC that they probably already paid for (and that Bungie's trying to get you to do again, by suckering chumps into a new Season Pass).

For what it's worth, I've always found enough enjoyable stuff in the game to get my money's worth (and without complaining as I play), but I won't lick Bungie's feet by failing to acknowledge that they screwed the pooch with it from day 1 to today (and the "Annual Pass" is just more of that). All of that is true, but I mean, I play better games for the different aspects that I want. I play D2 to have a fun time with friends, or to enjoy some of the gameplay elements that it does better than a lot of other games.

Still, I'm probably going to get Forsaken, and maybe down the road, I'll pick up the new season pass (and as you know, I'm occasionally looking to see if it's on sale for Xbox). I like the game... But I think Skill Up is completely on point in a lot of his criticism as well.

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until he claimed that Destiny 2's base game was "a shitty launch product"

Contextually, he was calling it that in regards to a perspective shared by many fans, with regards to the DLC itself being used as a "mea culpa". He disagreed with that view himself. It pays to actually pay attention to what's being said. ;)

Actual quote:

"I said earlier that I was happy to pay for the Forsaken DLC, because I think it represented value, at least based on what we've seen so far. And I don't think that giving away that DLC for free was the way to show any contrition for a shitty launch product. I think the annual pass would have been the chance to do that."

If you're trying to argue that that final sentence doesn't tacitly agree with the assessment that Bungie released a "shitty launch product", I'm gonna call "KornyTroll". In my opinion, he's either accepting that assessment... or he's really shitty at expressing his opinions. Either way, I'm not interested in watching more.

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"I said earlier that I was happy to pay for the Forsaken DLC, because I think it represented value, at least based on what we've seen so far. And I don't think that giving away that DLC for free was the way to show any contrition for "a shitty launch product". I think the annual pass would have been the chance to do that."

With the quotes is how I interpreted it. It's probably because I listened to the entirety of his Destiny 2 review way back when it came out, and he clearly liked the game then. It wasn't until Curse of Osiris that he stopped playing for a long while.

There has definitely been a demand for Forsaken to be free to make up for the disappointing aspects of D2(although there is literally zero chance of that happpening, since Bungie isn't DE or any other studio that has figured out a way to be profitable without dragging players by their wallets), but like he says in the video, value is subjective, and D2 as a product has provided great value to many players (such as yourself), so Bungie continuing to deliver a product like that is absolutely a good thing for that audience, and it's why he says that no, Forsaken should not be free. But the season pass content's bullet points are all stuff that has been free up to now, thanks to the Live team, and so that's where Bungie could have made up for D2's shortcomings by adding more value to what players have already paid.

At least, that's how I interpreted it, and I can agree with that, to a large degree.

Although I totally do think Destiny 2 was a shpoopy launch product. But that's because it was designed to revolve around tokens and Eververse, and little else. But any sort of glasses mess with my depth perception; especially the rose-tinted ones, so even though I liked it, I can acknowledge the disappointment that it was. :v

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WHen have we received new gear content, new and returning exotics, end game content, etc., for no Cost thanks to the Live Team? And no seasonal events don’t count in this context because those are separate from the Annual Pass.

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WHen have we received new gear content, new and returning exotics, end game content, etc., for no Cost thanks to the Live Team? And no seasonal events don’t count in this context because those are separate from the Annual Pass.

The Taken Spring (Also included the Zen Meteor exotic and armor sets for Playstation)

Age of Triumph?

And depite your nitpick that seasonal events "don't count", D1 gave us Sparrow Racing, and holiday events that had never existed before Eververse

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The April Update had what? Something like 2 missions, one strike, upleveled content and Eververse content? And Age of Triumph was almost entirely just upleveled content with the addition of Ornaments.

While I would love to see content periodically revamped I don’t think that’s comparable to the detailed “limit your expectations” content descriptions for the content of he Annual Pass.

Seasonal events don’t count because everyone is still getting them. Even if they don’t have the Annual pass.

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The April Update had what? Something like 2 missions, one strike, upleveled content and Eververse content?
And Age of Triumph was almost entirely just upleveled content with the addition of Ornaments.

Your question was:

When have we received new gear content, new and returning exotics, end game content, etc., for no Cost thanks to the Live Team?

Sounds like those two examples alone clearly fill in every single one of your blanks. Now, if you want to nitpick and try to judge the value/quantity of that content against something that we know absolutely nothing about, that's on you, but it doesn't invalidate the fact that you were proven wrong.

(Although yeah, I'll concede that Xbox players didn't get as much from the Live team during the Taken Spring, since PS4 got six armor sets, a new exotic, a bonus quest, and a sparrow that they didn't. In that sense, you're more right than not.)

Also, if you want to get super pedantic, Age of Triumph introduced a huge ton of new exotics in the form of Exotic raid weapons. :P
Technically correct is the best kind of correct!

But yeah,

Seasonal events don’t count because everyone is still getting them. Even if they don’t have the Annual pass.

Except that's only because of the massive backlash to CoO. Remember that Bungie had to patch our access to that content back in. If they had had things their way, we wouldn't have even had access to a ton of launch-day content (such as Faction Rally access and loot) if we didn't pony up!

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I'm aware of what my question was. I am also aware it was purposefully leading to make an explicit comparison in content volume and type, knowing full well the anticipated answer in advance.

Given that we have explicit knowledge of what was included in TAU and AOT and have a description covering each of the three paid content released for D2Y2, emphasis mine:

new endgame challenges; new weapons, armor and vanity items to collect; new and returning exotics; new pinnacle activities; new Triumph Records to collect; and new in-game lore to discover

No, we do not know the total volume of of content in each release, at a minimum it is fair to say that the three releases in D2Y2 will be substantially more than the one free content release of D1Y2.

I'm not going to discuss the merits of the monetary requirement here. I actually had that consideration as a response to an earlier post you made in this thread, but the point is that regardless of past occurrences the Event Activities are available for all players in D2Y2 whether you want to attribute it to backlash or rational minds prevailing.

And Legendaries that occupy an Exotic Slot hardly count as new Exotics. Logically correct > Technically correct because Reason.

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so even though I liked it, I can acknowledge the disappointment that it was. :v

And there's my issue. Everyone that dislikes Destiny 2 or thinks it was disappointing or whatever else automatically infers that folks that think it was good or even great are just buying into Bungie's bullshit or have been tricked into liking it or are looking through rose colored glasses, or however you want to phrase it. I'm not exactly accusing you of doing that, but that's certainly how it reads to me.

Just last night I listened to someone talk about how they prefer the new Renown system because it forces them to do patrols and Public Events on the way to Lost Sectors and it forces a change of scenery. That's great! It really is but . . . some of us don't hate ourselves and have been playing like that the whole time. And I think that example can be stretched to nearly every complaint about the progression and investment and loot of Destiny. I'm not giving Bungie a pass, I think all of that stuff needs work still. Locking catalysts behind Rank 50 in a Faction and forcing players to pledge to every faction once a season to get them all seems extreme to me, for example. But I'll live without that Sweet Business catalyst until they undoubtedly make it available somewhere else next season.

I just think there's a dichotomy in the way the community in general plays Destiny and the way Destiny is designed to be played. I hate putting the "blame" so to speak on the players, but I think it's at least partially necessary here. Most of the things people complain about simply aren't a problem if they would just slow the hell down and not try and laser focus on one thing at a time. I stopped doing that a few weeks ago, and my attitude towards Destiny has changed dramatically. There's three more months still left in this season--why does the entire internet think they need to finish every quest and get every catalyst this week?

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This isn't a testament to my not being monofocused. I'm monofocused on getting leveled for the raid on two platforms.

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This isn't a testament to my not being monofocused. I'm monofocused on getting leveled for the raid on two platforms.

Oh, me too. And that’s the one thing I really hope Bungie addresses going forwards. It’s the one snag in the “take your time” mindset. Our blind raid was fucked because I guess waiting three weeks without watching videos about the raid is too much to ask. Still had a great time because raiding is great, blind or no, but it’s frustrating to miss out on a truly blind raid.

EDIT: I guess I missed your question in the title, Kermit. I was talking about the uproar about certain catalysts being tied to reaching ranking 50 in a faction. But also just catalysts in general. You know how many times I've heard folks talk about going to the Castellum to finish off a catalyst? Or some other single-minded way to do it? Which is totally fine, if that's how they want to play. I'm going to do it just by using the weapon I like.

The quest I was thinking about was the Nascent Dawn, and people complaining that it's a multi-week quest, rather than something you can just grind out. People play this game in a way that I guess I just fundamentally don't understand. They grind out everything the can as fast as possible, bitching about having to grind it out the entire way, and then complain they have nothing else to do once they're done grinding stuff out. They can't see the forest for the trees.

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This isn't a testament to my not being monofocused. I'm monofocused on getting leveled for the raid on two platforms.

Oh, me too. And that’s the one thing I really hope Bungie addresses going forwards. It’s the one snag in the “take your time” mindset. Our blind raid was fucked because I guess waiting three weeks without watching videos about the raid is too much to ask. Still had a great time because raiding is great, blind or no, but it’s frustrating to miss out on a truly blind raid.

"Fucked" might not be the right word. The majority of the mechanisms were sussed out by those of us who were REALLY blind. (Only Kupkake and Mex had any knowledge about what was coming... and they both missed (or possibly intentionally left out) some pretty key steps. )

You're right - it wasn't TOTALLY blind. I feel like it was 20-400 vision, or so, though. :)

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This isn't a testament to my not being monofocused. I'm monofocused on getting leveled for the raid on two platforms.

Oh, me too. And that’s the one thing I really hope Bungie addresses going forwards. It’s the one snag in the “take your time” mindset. Our blind raid was fucked because I guess waiting three weeks without watching videos about the raid is too much to ask. Still had a great time because raiding is great, blind or no, but it’s frustrating to miss out on a truly blind raid.

"Fucked" might not be the right word. The majority of the mechanisms were sussed out by those of us who were REALLY blind. (Only Kupkake and Mex had any knowledge about what was coming... and they both missed (or possibly intentionally left out) some pretty key steps. )

You're right - it wasn't TOTALLY blind. I feel like it was 20-400 vision, or so, though. :)

No, you're right. That was hyperbolic. I spent five minutes being quietly very upset, then tried to let it go, mostly successfully. I guess we differ in opinion on how much the blind players figured out, but I have a pretty particular expectation about a blind raid. Even "there's an exotic chest in this room somewhere" is more than I want to know.

I still had a blast, and I'm looking forward to having a go at the final boss here pretty soon! Still just a little bummed that actually being blind is too much to ask for an event that's marked bind and had numerous threads devoted to setting up a time and finding players. If it was just a matter of not having enough actually blind players, I can be more forgiving, but if that's the case it certainly wasn't clear to me.

I'm eager to play again tonight, and I've spent some of the day working on getting my Xbox Hunter leveled up to tackle it over there.

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I'm with you and it's a bummer people couldn't wait, although I'm sure it's frustrating being ready and not playing (I've never been so far ahead for it to be an issue for me). I humbly suggest not fretting about everyone being at the official light level, which gives you the freedom to tackle it a wee bit sooner. Last week might have been the sweet spot, but it's hard to say.

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I'm with you and it's a bummer people couldn't wait, although I'm sure it's frustrating being ready and not playing (I've never been so far ahead for it to be an issue for me). I humbly suggest not fretting about everyone being at the official light level, which gives you the freedom to tackle it a wee bit sooner. Last week might have been the sweet spot, but it's hard to say.

Yeah... I'd disagree. Maybe for the first couple of encounters... but we were definitely underleveled this evening for the final encounter. (Well, what's PROBABLY the final encounter.)

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I guess you could say "you can be lower than the official level for everything but the end"... but that's not really satisfying; you play, you get to a certain point, and you basically have to go earn some extra stuff so that you can play more. In instances like this, I can completely understand Cody's frustration with a grind.

If we'd waited until we were all at 380, I think it would have been playable all the way through, without a break.

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I'm with you and it's a bummer people couldn't wait, although I'm sure it's frustrating being ready and not playing (I've never been so far ahead for it to be an issue for me). I humbly suggest not fretting about everyone being at the official light level, which gives you the freedom to tackle it a wee bit sooner. Last week might have been the sweet spot, but it's hard to say.

Yeah... I'd disagree. Maybe for the first couple of encounters... but we were definitely underleveled this evening for the final encounter. (Well, what's PROBABLY the final encounter.)

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I guess you could say "you can be lower than the official level for everything but the end"... but that's not really satisfying; you play, you get to a certain point, and you basically have to go earn some extra stuff so that you can play more. In instances like this, I can completely understand Cody's frustration with a grind.

If we'd waited until we were all at 380, I think it would have been playable all the way through, without a break.

With those light levels I think you could've have finished it with the proper care, practice, and plan, which I admit is hard work to formulate when everyone is still learning.

I say this having only gotten to the point of learning how to damage the final boss. All but two of us were below 370 (I think a few of us were in the 350s--nobody was 380 or higher). It took a bit to figure how to survive the ads, and it was certainly tough, but through strategic use of abilities and teamwork, we did it (I actually enjoy that situation and might have a greater tolerance for wipes than some). We realized that we did only about 1/6th damage and reasoned we needed to double it. We knew we couldn't finish, but we got what we came for, which was the blind experience. I've stated before that the latter is more important to me than killing the boss.

Big caveat: we had squid and Cruel when we were most successful--they're very talented players.

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My biggest issue was simply staying alive. I feel like I had to focus so much on accomplishing that task, I could barely begin the task of actually observing what was happening and what we needed to accomplish collectively. The scoreboard on the wipe screen makes it pretty obvious what needs to happen, but we couldn’t keep a team alive long enough to attempt anything. No doubt we’d have gotten better with time, but here again, being underleveled adds another layer that I don’t find particularly fun or appealing. You’re right, in that I don’t feel a huge need to finish it now that I’ve seen it. We’re going to give it another shot on Sunday, but now I’m happy to wait until I level up some more.

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My biggest issue was simply staying alive. I feel like I had to focus so much on accomplishing that task, I could barely begin the task of actually observing what was happening and what we needed to accomplish collectively. The scoreboard on the wipe screen makes it pretty obvious what needs to happen, but we couldn’t keep a team alive long enough to attempt anything. No doubt we’d have gotten better with time, but here again, being underleveled adds another layer that I don’t find particularly fun or appealing. You’re right, in that I don’t feel a huge need to finish it now that I’ve seen it. We’re going to give it another shot on Sunday, but now I’m happy to wait until I level up some more.

It took us a long time to find a pattern that kept everyone alive long enough to do damage. I think we switched positions based on strengths and weaknesses, and made lots of other adjustments as well. Everybody had to execute perfectly. I think we played over at least two nights, too. I remember we had a very hard time doing the first round in the final room, but the next night we did it on the second try, maybe? So we got better. Sounds like you all did really well for your first night.

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You're right - it wasn't TOTALLY blind. I feel like it was 20-400 vision, or so, though. :)

20/400 vision is about what it felt like after getting our ass beat by the boss… Like Rocky with a swollen eye, we will heal and win in the end!

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-How much are you willing to pay to get the game that you should have received at launch? "Forsaken is a retreat to the best parts of Destiny 1", as he puts it (a lot of it has to do with general changes that will affect everyone, even those without the DLC).

I hate this narrative so fucking much. The game we got at launch was a damn good game, and better than D1 in just about every way. I guess I’m in the minority on that line of thinking.

You're not. And I couldn't watch this video past the halfway point (he made argument after argument that made my eyes roll, until he claimed that Destiny 2's base game was "a shitty launch product" - at which point I said "enough" and closed the window).

His perception of this game is so far outside the universe of my own perceptions that I can't even listen to his arguments.

Yeah, I was done at the point that he said launch Destiny 2 was "objectively worse in every way" in comparison to Destiny 1...

I can appreciate that people have issues with Destiny 2, but that in no way makes it "objectively worse".

Presenting whatever criticisms (aka opinions) he has about Destiny 2 as facts discredits most of what he has to say because it's all built on a foundation that is a fundamental misunderstanding of criticism.

That the moon is approximately 363,104 kilometers away is an objective fact. That Destiny 2 launch was worse than Destiny 1 is a valid subjective opinion, nothing more.

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The careless and ignorant use it only for emphasis.

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Careless and ignorant is a good description for YouTubists who talk about things like this in this way.

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Yeah, I was done at the point that he said launch Destiny 2 was "objectively worse in every way" in comparison to Destiny 1...

Except he didn't say that. He clearly said "Many people will argue" before that, followed immediately with "I don't share this view".

Are people seriously so fragile these days that the moment they think they hear something that they don't like, they REEEE out to their safe space? Jesus, dude. Cruel's making more and more sense these days.

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Yeah, I was done at the point that he said launch Destiny 2 was "objectively worse in every way" in comparison to Destiny 1...

Except he didn't say that. He clearly said "Many people will argue" before that, followed immediately with "I don't share this view".

Are people seriously so fragile these days that the moment they think they hear something that they don't like, they REEEE out to their safe space? Jesus, dude. Cruel's making more and more sense these days.

I took it as he was disagreeing that Forsaken should be free while also agreeing with their assessment of D2 launch.

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I took it as he was disagreeing that Forsaken should be free while also agreeing with their assessment of D2 launch.

Yeah, I can see how the interpreted placement of vocal parentheses can lead to things being taken in wildly different levels of meaning.

I watch a lot of Skill Up's videos. One thing that I like is that he is a much more positive person than other reviewers, and one who doesn't lean on hyperbole or absolutes while sharing his perspective. I guess that's why I don't jump in assuming the worst behind the things that he says. There are countless entitled douchebags that have a loud voice in our community (Bromnigul, anyone?), which is why I single this guy's thoughts out as worth listening to, but it's pitchforks, circlejerks, and snowflakes on this forum.

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There are countless entitled douchebags that have a loud voice in our community (Bromnigul, anyone?), which is why I single this guy's thoughts out as worth listening to, but it's pitchforks, circlejerks, and snowflakes on this forum.

Pot, meet kettle, I suppose.

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There are countless entitled douchebags that have a loud voice in our community (Bromnigul, anyone?), which is why I single this guy's thoughts out as worth listening to, but it's pitchforks, circlejerks, and snowflakes on this forum.

Pot, meet kettle, I suppose.

[image]

I mean, I'm always open to listening and understanding people and perspectives that I don't agree with. Nitpicking and clinging to a tiny point or flaw, or closing myself off to listening to others is willful ignorance, which people here are waving as a point of pride. I'm not saying that folks should subject themselves to listening to stuff that they don't agree with, but those people are real adamant about chiming in with how wrong the people that they aren't even listening to are. It's what I'm seeing from the same dang fragile people who say "I don't have the same experience, so you're wrong!".
I dunno. I find that insipid crap tiring. (Worse when it's the people who think themselves intellectuals.)

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There are countless entitled douchebags that have a loud voice in our community (Bromnigul, anyone?), which is why I single this guy's thoughts out as worth listening to, but it's pitchforks, circlejerks, and snowflakes on this forum.

Pot, meet kettle, I suppose.

I mean, I'm always open to listening and understanding people and perspectives that I don't agree with. Nitpicking and clinging to a tiny point or flaw, or closing myself off to listening to others is willful ignorance, which people here are waving as a point of pride. I'm not saying that folks should subject themselves to listening to stuff that they don't agree with, but those people are real adamant about chiming in with how wrong the people that they aren't even listening to are. It's what I'm seeing from the same dang fragile people who say "I don't have the same experience, so you're wrong!".
I dunno. I find that insipid crap tiring. (Worse when it's the people who think themselves intellectuals.)

Except for no one here is doing that, and you’re the only one throwing insults around.

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I mean, I'm always open to listening and understanding people and perspectives that I don't agree with. Nitpicking and clinging to a tiny point or flaw, or closing myself off to listening to others is willful ignorance, which people here are waving as a point of pride. I'm not saying that folks should subject themselves to listening to stuff that they don't agree with, but those people are real adamant about chiming in with how wrong the people that they aren't even listening to are. It's what I'm seeing from the same dang fragile people who say "I don't have the same experience, so you're wrong!".
I dunno. I find that insipid crap tiring. (Worse when it's the people who think themselves intellectuals.)

Except for no one here is doing that, and you’re the only one throwing insults around.

Except they totally are. The second someone says "I stopped listening after" before chiming in with their hottest of takes is exactly that.

But whatevs. We're sussing things out well enough.

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I mean, I'm always open to listening and understanding people and perspectives that I don't agree with. Nitpicking and clinging to a tiny point or flaw, or closing myself off to listening to others is willful ignorance, which people here are waving as a point of pride. I'm not saying that folks should subject themselves to listening to stuff that they don't agree with, but those people are real adamant about chiming in with how wrong the people that they aren't even listening to are. It's what I'm seeing from the same dang fragile people who say "I don't have the same experience, so you're wrong!".
I dunno. I find that insipid crap tiring. (Worse when it's the people who think themselves intellectuals.)

Except for no one here is doing that, and you’re the only one throwing insults around.

Except they totally are. The second someone says "I stopped listening after" before chiming in with their hottest of takes is exactly that.

It's totally not that. It has nothing to do with experience, and everything to do with perspective. Open-mindedness, even. You're blind to the idea that some of us might be using his choice of absolutes as an indicator that his argument isn't really worth the time it takes to hear it.

I've made that very point a thousand times, right here on this forum. When you need hyperbole to make your point, your point is bad.

When you express your opinion in a way that suggests that all other opinions hold no merit, you're saying "I'm not really interested in discussing this; I'm just TELLING you how it is." That's not something I'm really interested in being a part of.

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I've made that very point a thousand times, right here on this forum. When you need hyperbole to make your point, your point is bad.

I disagree. Hyperbole can be useful to drive home what the core of the point is. It clarifies what aspect is the concern for you. Granted, it does matter how the hyperbole is presented In my own cases, I use extreme examples to illustrate the overall point first, then scale back to the actual scenario at hand and demonstrate how the extreme maps to the realistic.

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There are countless entitled douchebags that have a loud voice in our community (Bromnigul, anyone?), which is why I single this guy's thoughts out as worth listening to, but it's pitchforks, circlejerks, and snowflakes on this forum.

Pot, meet kettle, I suppose.

I mean, I'm always open to listening and understanding people and perspectives that I don't agree with. Nitpicking and clinging to a tiny point or flaw, or closing myself off to listening to others is willful ignorance, which people here are waving as a point of pride. I'm not saying that folks should subject themselves to listening to stuff that they don't agree with, but those people are real adamant about chiming in with how wrong the people that they aren't even listening to are. It's what I'm seeing from the same dang fragile people who say "I don't have the same experience, so you're wrong!".
I dunno. I find that insipid crap tiring. (Worse when it's the people who think themselves intellectuals.)

So if we disagree with what he's saying, it's pitchforks and circlejerks, and if we say "I don't need to waste my time on that" it's snowflakes?

Do you really need to stoop to namecalling on this one?

I'm open to hearing other opinions - but I don't think he's got an opinion I need to be open to. We're not trying to live together, after all, or even share a community. (His Destiny community and mine have, as far as I can tell, one point of overlap.) I listened to 5 minutes of his video, and I gotta say... if he didn't do a decent job of getting his point across in those 5 minutes, he's bad at the thing that makes him money. I'm pretty sure I know EXACTLY where he's coming from. (You and I clearly disagree on that point - but several years of interaction between us tells me that it's a perspective thing, not an objective truth.)

Look - you posted the video, you stated pretty clearly why you thought it was a good argument, and people (me included) disagreed with you, and with him. How about if you accept that as a valid point of view, and maybe make it clearer why we're (I'm) wrong, instead of insulting me and condescending to me?

Or, if that's too much work, maybe just let it go. But again - without the insults.

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I took it as he was disagreeing that Forsaken should be free while also agreeing with their assessment of D2 launch.

Yeah, I can see how the interpreted placement of vocal parentheses can lead to things being taken in wildly different levels of meaning.

I watch a lot of Skill Up's videos. One thing that I like is that he is a much more positive person than other reviewers, and one who doesn't lean on hyperbole or absolutes while sharing his perspective. I guess that's why I don't jump in assuming the worst behind the things that he says. There are countless entitled douchebags that have a loud voice in our community (Bromnigul, anyone?), which is why I single this guy's thoughts out as worth listening to, but it's pitchforks, circlejerks, and snowflakes on this forum.

Fair enough, I think the only other video I've seen (cause you shared it) was his Curse Of Osiris video and I was taken aback by how negative he was in it.

I appreciate that you understand that one can interpret what he said different ways.

Also "but it's pitchforks, circlejerks, and snowflakes on this forum." is ad hominem like whoa. We're fired up about a narrative that launch Destiny 2 was objectively terrible. Our reaction to that isn't invalid, and maybe Skill Up isn't making that point, but I don't think it's snowflakey/circle jerky to express our frustration about it.

I've got other nitpicks for the video now that I've tried to re-contextualize the "objectively worse" comment, but they're relatively moot and don't bother me in the way that that one particular concept does.

And look, maybe everyone has become snowflakey (seriously, "snowflake" often is used by someone so aggrieved that they embody the thing they're making fun of) because the cottage industry of being angry about something that Bungie has done has grown to the point that it feels omnipresent and a perpetual downer. I'm guilty of jumping in on it, and I regret that I have.

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And look, maybe everyone has become snowflakey (seriously, "snowflake" often is used by someone so aggrieved that they embody the thing they're making fun of) because the cottage industry of being angry about something that Bungie has done has grown to the point that it feels omnipresent and a perpetual downer. I'm guilty of jumping in on it, and I regret that I have.

Perfectly said, and I strongly echo that last statement. My relationship with Destiny is better now that it ever has been. I'd hesitate to say it's because of anything the game has done (although Warmind is great), and more due to a personal attitude adjustment.

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Fair enough, I think the only other video I've seen (cause you shared it) was his Curse Of Osiris video and I was taken aback by how negative he was in it.

I mean, yeah, Curse of Osiris was hugely disappointing for most people, and he did have very little to say to that that was positive, but he still expressed his points very well, and that's more than can be said for people who were upset with that DLC.

Also "but it's pitchforks, circlejerks, and snowflakes on this forum." is ad hominem like whoa.

Heh. Yeah, but I stand behind what I said (it's why I said it!).

We're fired up about a narrative that launch Destiny 2 was objectively terrible. Our reaction to that isn't invalid, and maybe Skill Up isn't making that point, but I don't think it's snowflakey/circle jerky to express our frustration about it.

It's fair to disagree (I mean, I'm actively disagreeing with that in this very thread, but I'm also openly acknowledging that people have a good reason for feeling that way given the direction that Bungie headed after the steady improvements that came to D1, and the way Forsaken is embracing "the best of Destiny 1". You're not wrong for finding D2 better across the board given what you wanted out of it. People are not wrong for finding D2 worse across the board. It's all open to personal experience!

And look, maybe everyone has become snowflakey (seriously, "snowflake" often is used by someone so aggrieved that they embody the thing they're making fun of) because the cottage industry of being angry about something that Bungie has done has grown to the point that it feels omnipresent and a perpetual downer. I'm guilty of jumping in on it, and I regret that I have.

Well said, and I feel the same way. It's why I actively seek out positive people to listen to. Sure, the Angry Joes and the stupid streamers have the loudest voices, but gaming culture isn't completely lost to those people (despite developers catering to them). That said, they wouldn't be so big if people didn't agree with them, and acting as if there is absolutely nothing is wrong is equally dumb. Extremes are bad.

There has to be understanding, and a middle ground. I enjoy D2, but there have been huge problems since it launched. Some of these problems didn't exist in D1. And it's ok! It's okay that the game has always had problems! Let's just be open to the idea that they exist, and that they need to be fixed.

I don't know what's so scary about that to some of the folks here.

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There has to be understanding, and a middle ground. I enjoy D2, but there have been huge problems since it launched. Some of these problems didn't exist in D1. And it's ok! It's okay that the game has always had problems! Let's just be open to the idea that they exist, and that they need to be fixed.

I don't know what's so scary about that to some of the folks here.

Literally no one has made this argument that you're suggesting exists.

No one in this thread has suggested that Destiny 2 has no problems. People have argued that they enjoy D2 more than D1. They've argued that D2 isn't objectively worse than D1. Some have said they've changed the way they engage Destiny between the two games. Claude suggested that someone's view of perceived problems are so far removed from his own experience that it's not worth his time to listen to it (note that Claude never said the problems didn't exist or weren't legitimate. It just wasn't valuable for him to engage with it). It's not scary to anyone. You are apologetically defending people who have not been attacked. That's what is so confusing about you.

I don't find calling a person a snowflake a legitimate form of insult/argument because it tends to downplay the substance of a person's thoughts and suggests that they're overly sensitive. It's an attack on that person's character rather than the action of a person legitimately seeking a middle ground. With that said, your statements appear to suggest that you are the most sensitive person in this thread.

You just insulted everyone under the guise of presenting yourself as having access to some sort of objective middle perspective when no one was disagreeing with the words I quoted above. Maybe you're too sensitive on this subject and you believe that people are arguing something they are not when they express disagreement? Do you honestly believe anyone was saying Destiny 2 has no room for improvement?

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. . . he has "expressed his points very well" and I think the general consensus here is that he doesn't do that. There are very few Destiny content creators that I tend to consider express their points well. Even the ones I like to listen to.

I, personally, can't even get behind/beyond his initial query and that seems to be, for the most part, where he loses most of the folks here. And his general tone is harmful to any attempt to do anything but, to use your choice of terms, circlejerk with the folks who are already on board his boat. He is frequently negative for the sake of negativity. Legitimate feelings on his part or not, his presentation is harmful to getting his point across.

Also, to reiterate from prior comments, he states a lot of unsupported, subjective considerations as objective facts and it just leaves a rotten taste. Anyway, it doesn't help that he suggests that for what we have traditionally paid for we should get free now because Bungie somehow needs. . .

". . . to show any contrition for a shitty launch product."

His distaste of Destiny 2 - regardless of what he suggests otherwise - continues to permeate his content and thus it harbors no value to those not looking to reinforce their existing distaste for how Bungie has handled Des2ny.

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Yeah, I was done at the point that he said launch Destiny 2 was "objectively worse in every way" in comparison to Destiny 1...

Except he didn't say that. He clearly said "Many people will argue" before that, followed immediately with "I don't share this view".

Except that's not what he was talking about, or at least not necessarily. When he says "I don't share that view," it seems to me like he's referring to the thought that Forsaken ought to be free. Especially because his next thought is "I think this is a meaty update by the looks of it, and I don't mind paying a fair price for a fair product."

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The only real downsides I had with D2's mechanics at launch were the overall weakening of abilities and reduction of PVP to 4v4.

Sure, lost sectors were disappointments, but from a PVE perspective D2 improved greatly on most of D1. It's PVP that is the source of most of the complaints and most of the issue with Destiny. There are the hardcore streamer crowds that want "balance", grind, and prestige items.

This manifestly makes the game less fun for those whom cannot afford to play all week. D2 at launch was easier to get equipped then in D1, and so lots of the younger players got fed up and left after "achieving" everything they wanted in a month of relentless grinding.

The focus on these PVP players and their complaints has drowned out development of anything else in Destiny.

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I only watched the Vidoc, so I don’t know anything about this annual pass. I will have to look it up, but the bottom line for me is:

1. I don’t really care about how much I spend on a game as long as it’s good. I mean, I bought and Xbox solely for Halo and that was worth it even if I never got another game.

2. Large releases are always better than many smaller ones.

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So based on what Deej said, it doesn't sound like the annual pass is equivalent to pre-ordering the two DLCs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like those updates aren't going to bring new areas and missions, but just gear and new modes and stuff.

It would be helpful if Bungie were explicit about what it is you are actually getting. Are you getting new raids or raid lairs? If so sign me up. But if not, it would be helpful to know.

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The reference image has "endgame challenges" over top of the Raid icon. So I might extrapolate something of that nature.

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The reference image has "endgame challenges" over top of the Raid icon. So I might extrapolate something of that nature.

Maybe. Prison of Elders was considered an 'Endgame Challenge', and I didn't find it even remotely as satisfying as a Raid (or even a Raid Lair).

(I'm not saying that's what's coming; I'm saying we don't have enough info to do any real extrapolation.)

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The reference image has "endgame challenges" over top of the Raid icon. So I might extrapolate something of that nature.

Maybe. Prison of Elders was considered an 'Endgame Challenge', and I didn't find it even remotely as satisfying as a Raid (or even a Raid Lair).

(I'm not saying that's what's coming; I'm saying we don't have enough info to do any real extrapolation.)

Which is weird, because there really isn't enough info to know whether it's worth getting. My gut tells me it's probably going to disappoint (unless it contains a new raid), because whenever someone is vague about what they are selling it's probably because they want to hide something.

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The reference image has "endgame challenges" over top of the Raid icon. So I might extrapolate something of that nature.

Maybe. Prison of Elders was considered an 'Endgame Challenge', and I didn't find it even remotely as satisfying as a Raid (or even a Raid Lair).

(I'm not saying that's what's coming; I'm saying we don't have enough info to do any real extrapolation.)

Which is weird, because there really isn't enough info to know whether it's worth getting. My gut tells me it's probably going to disappoint (unless it contains a new raid), because whenever someone is vague about what they are selling it's probably because they want to hide something.

::sigh::

Or maybe they're being vague because it's June, and they don't want to shoot their wad quite yet.

But yeah, you're probably right, there's someone in the studio who said "we need to stay vague so Cody doesn't realize how disappointing this is before it's too late and he's bought it!"

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The reference image has "endgame challenges" over top of the Raid icon. So I might extrapolate something of that nature.

Maybe. Prison of Elders was considered an 'Endgame Challenge', and I didn't find it even remotely as satisfying as a Raid (or even a Raid Lair).

(I'm not saying that's what's coming; I'm saying we don't have enough info to do any real extrapolation.)

Which is weird, because there really isn't enough info to know whether it's worth getting. My gut tells me it's probably going to disappoint (unless it contains a new raid), because whenever someone is vague about what they are selling it's probably because they want to hide something.

::sigh::

Or maybe they're being vague because it's June, and they don't want to shoot their wad quite yet.

But yeah, you're probably right, there's someone in the studio who said "we need to stay vague so Cody doesn't realize how disappointing this is before it's too late and he's bought it!"

You don’t have to shoot your wad to avoid being vague. You can say exactly what you are getting without giving it away. Are there new patrol zones and storm missions? That can be yes / no. Are there new raids? New PvP maps / modes? Record books? Etc. You can be specific about what you get without spoiling anything. The way Deej was talking about it was so dancing around the point and “PR” it was frustrating.

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I would imagine it is one part not revealing the whole hand combined with not being fully locked in on what content they will fit in yet.

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I would imagine it is one part not revealing the whole hand combined with not being fully locked in on what content they will fit in yet.

So, I agree with this and that's my thoughts as well. However, if this is true then they really shouldn't be offering it for pre-order if they can't give people a reasonable idea of what it actually is.

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I would imagine it is one part not revealing the whole hand combined with not being fully locked in on what content they will fit in yet.

So, I agree with this and that's my thoughts as well. However, if this is true then they really shouldn't be offering it for pre-order if they can't give people a reasonable idea of what it actually is.

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I would imagine it is one part not revealing the whole hand combined with not being fully locked in on what content they will fit in yet.

So, I agree with this and that's my thoughts as well. However, if this is true then they really shouldn't be offering it for pre-order if they can't give people a reasonable idea of what it actually is.

I'm pretty sure they are talking about it today in the TWAB (they said that didn't they?). I don't see too much problem with making it available for pre-order two days before they talk about it, I mean you can pre-order Fallout 76 RIGHT NOW, and that could be a Fallout-themed card game for all we know.

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I would imagine it is one part not revealing the whole hand combined with not being fully locked in on what content they will fit in yet.

So, I agree with this and that's my thoughts as well. However, if this is true then they really shouldn't be offering it for pre-order if they can't give people a reasonable idea of what it actually is.

I'm pretty sure they are talking about it today in the TWAB (they said that didn't they?). I don't see too much problem with releasing it two days before they talk about it, I mean you can pre-order Fallout 76 RIGHT NOW, and that could be a Fallout-themed card game for all we know.

Yeah, and E3 is coming up so there will probably be clarification.

It's just that if they said "raid" I would already have my credit card out.

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I meant more to consider specificity isn’t set. The broad strokes were already expressed and that is enough information for folks to start making valuation decisions, but they don’t want to over promise with 12 new Exotics and 6 returning Exotics and have it end up as 7 and 4 because of technical issues during the next 4-5 months of development.

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-How much are you willing to pay to get the game that you should have received at launch? "Forsaken is a retreat to the best parts of Destiny 1", as he puts it (a lot of it has to do with general changes that will affect everyone, even those without the DLC).

So if it affects everyone regardless of whether they buy the new expansion are not, what are you paying to get the game you should have received at launch? Nothing extra.

-Bungie continues to embrace player-unfriendly practices, and the Year 2 season pass is yet another example of that. (All of the promised content in the $35 season pass is stuff that the Live Team gave us for free, from SRL to Age of Triumph, with the understanding that Eververse was paying for that. Bungie is clearly trying to make up for poor Microtransaction sales by asking players for a chunk of change up front to continue to get what we were supposed to be getting from a Live Service game, while still refusing to phase out Destiny's Eververse prominence.)

Well, they tried the microtransaction subsidized model, but the backlash against them across the industry has obviously impacted that strategy. Someone has to pay those bills.

-The Annual Pass content should be stuff that we get in addition to DLC like Warmind, not in lieu of. (Despite having four studios working on the game, we were pretty explicitly told to lower our expectations for Year 2. If you recall noclip's interview with Rebecca Ford on Community Management, she pointed out that this approach is a huge misstep for a developer with a live game. Scrapping big content releases in favor of trickling out content over a longer period will not build or sustain your playerbase. You have to do both.
Rewatching DeeJ pitch the weaker-but-same-price Season Pass was just as painful as the first time that he stumbled through it. You're not fooling people, man...)

Completely disagree. I came to the realization that these small DLC launches are just not worth the money they invest in them. They usually feel a bit lackluster and hollow, because for whatever reason (justifiable or otherwise), they just can't churn out quality mainline content in that short of a period.

Give me a large content release once per year that has major story advancement and well thoughout plot and progression. Keep me around throughout the year with minor content releases like new strikes, new quests, new adventures, new events. Slowly progress the story and the world through minor drops leading up to the next big thing.

-Bungie shouldn't be forcing that you buy Curse of Osiris in order to buy Forsaken. Given the situation that Bungie has put themselves in, it's a lot to ask (as he puts it, Value is relative, but Bungie's goodwill bank is empty).

That's how it was with D1, that's how it is for WoW, that's how it is. It's a progression of content that you follow. You shouldn't be able to skip entire chunks of content in the game to go to later content.

-But the Expansion itself looks great, and easily worth the $40 asking price if it's anything like The Taken King. (I'm still cautious, because this is the same Bungie that hyped up Lost Sectors, Guided Games, and 4v4 as gamechangers.

I think the expansion will definitely be worth it. I'm interested to see what the Annual Pass gets you vs. what everyone gets. Reserving judgement on the worth of that pass until then.

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Completely disagree. I came to the realization that these small DLC launches are just not worth the money they invest in them. They usually feel a bit lackluster and hollow, because for whatever reason (justifiable or otherwise), they just can't churn out quality mainline content in that short of a period.

You should have read my opinions on this matter back in 2014. You’d have realized this sooner :-p

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Completely disagree. I came to the realization that these small DLC launches are just not worth the money they invest in them. They usually feel a bit lackluster and hollow, because for whatever reason (justifiable or otherwise), they just can't churn out quality mainline content in that short of a period.

You should have read my opinions on this matter back in 2014. You’d have realized this sooner :-p

Was holding out for hope. Took some time but I came around.

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Destiny 2 - Year 2 Reveal Stream is Live (Destiny)

Immediate impression

Release Date: September 4th

Roadmap got updated:

Looks like yet another "Inconsequential story" expansion...

DeeJ: "If you don't like playing against stacked teams...

DeeJ: "If you don't like playing against stacked teams...

DeeJ: "If you don't like playing against stacked teams...

DeeJ: "If you don't like playing against stacked teams...

+1

DeeJ: "If you don't like playing against stacked teams...

DeeJ: "If you don't like playing against stacked teams...

DeeJ: "If you don't like playing against stacked teams...

DeeJ: "If you don't like playing against stacked teams...

DeeJ: "If you don't like playing against stacked teams...

DeeJ: "If you don't like playing against stacked teams...

DeeJ: "If you don't like playing against stacked teams...

DeeJ: "If you don't like playing against stacked teams...

DeeJ: "If you don't like playing against stacked teams...

Watch it.

Looks like yet another "Inconsequential story" expansion...

Looks like yet another "Inconsequential story" expansion...

Looks like yet another "Inconsequential story" expansion...

Looks like yet another "Inconsequential story" expansion...

Looks like yet another "Inconsequential story" expansion...

Looks like yet another "Inconsequential story" expansion...

Box art:

Forsaken requires that you buy Year 1 season pass? What?

That is relatively typical for MMO-style games, no?

Taken King included TDB and HoW for free, IIRC

They released the expansion and a full re-release

Yup. Only the "Legendary Edition" of TTK had expansions.

There are some who said this day would never happen

Your Kiosks come with you, letting you pull things

We don't know that in full yet.

I guess so, probably.

Got my ticket for the hype train.

So far so good.

P.S. I’m gonna quickly finish the Eliskni BSB now. :)

And folks, THIS is the best news all day!

Holy shit. Looks incredible.