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THAB - More Good Ideas Addition (Destiny)

by bluerunner @, Music City, Thursday, May 21, 2020, 14:41 (8 days ago)

Bungie is redeemimg their unpopular decisions and broken quest of the last week by letting us know that they are nerfing popular reloading perks and there will be less loot next season.

https://www.bungie.net/en/News/Article/49126

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THAB - More Good Ideas Addition

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Thursday, May 21, 2020, 15:36 (8 days ago) @ bluerunner

Bungie is redeemimg their unpopular decisions and broken quest of the last week by letting us know that they are nerfing popular reloading perks and there will be less loot next season.

https://www.bungie.net/en/News/Article/49126

I was reading like “I wonder how they’re going to acknowledge the universal backlash towards Sunsetting?”
Doubling down was not what I expected as far as a response. Nerfing reload and damage perks while simultaneously killing the popular world drops is almost a parody response. Big yikes (hugs Outlaw Duke).

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THAB - More Good Ideas Addition

by bluerunner @, Music City, Thursday, May 21, 2020, 20:49 (8 days ago) @ Korny

Bungie is redeemimg their unpopular decisions and broken quest of the last week by letting us know that they are nerfing popular reloading perks and there will be less loot next season.

https://www.bungie.net/en/News/Article/49126


I was reading like “I wonder how they’re going to acknowledge the universal backlash towards Sunsetting?”
Doubling down was not what I expected as far as a response. Nerfing reload and damage perks while simultaneously killing the popular world drops is almost a parody response. Big yikes (hugs Outlaw Duke).

This hurts:
BUNGIE WEEKLY UPDATE - 12/04/2014
https://www.bungie.net/en/News/Article/12447/7_bungie-weekly-update---12042014

In the months to come, your quest to become more powerful will have more avenues that lead to satisfaction. The last thing we wanted was for you to look at your favorite gun or helmet and decide that it had become obsolete. Since the reveal, we’ve read a lot of ideas for how this could have been done better. Your feedback is clear: The time you have invested in your stuff should be respected.

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And there it is.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Friday, May 22, 2020, 00:55 (8 days ago) @ bluerunner

This hurts:
BUNGIE WEEKLY UPDATE - 12/04/2014
https://www.bungie.net/en/News/Article/12447/7_bungie-weekly-update---12042014

In the months to come, your quest to become more powerful will have more avenues that lead to satisfaction. The last thing we wanted was for you to look at your favorite gun or helmet and decide that it had become obsolete. Since the reveal, we’ve read a lot of ideas for how this could have been done better. Your feedback is clear: The time you have invested in your stuff should be respected.

So, this blurb here has been floating around in some form predominately since last week, like a sailor going port to port. Like a community bicycle. It was only a matter of time until it found its way here. How could it not? It checks off all the social media boxes. It's brainlessly easy to copy and paste, and the blerb its self is poignant enough that its message, when mixed current sentiment towards sunsetting, is obvious...and I HATE IT.

I'm possibly about to go full on "Yells at cloud" here, as I suspect I'm about to go against the grain. On the same coin, if it does appear that way, it only self reinforces what I dislike about this so intensely. I'm going to do my utmost to keep this within the realm of Destiny, because this easily bleeds into other things as well. This isn't directed at anyone. Blue, you are as much a victim (or whatever the right blasted word would be) as any of us can be. I know I'm not immune either, to this brave new world that gets so blindly built. How can I? Every day the water gets a little deeper, and not enough folks seem to care that we are getting set up through such mechanisms as market forces to drown in our own shit because the hive mind gets so easily abused and molded from the well known base instincts that commands it.

Eh shit... YA SEE! Geeze, I think need to add a layer to my spinfoil hat too...oh this is going to be difficult... Destiny Only... Destiny Only... MMMM...

My subconscious alarm bells ring when I see this. And I as ever, don't know why. BUT! For this post, I'm going to try and spell it out. What could possibly go wrong./s

FIRST; As is obvious from the date 2014, this is for Destiny 1. And I know, you could argue relevancy to it. Yet, to me, its a false equivalence. Destiny 1 is not Destiny 2. It may be of the same cloth, but each have their own character. If there is something to say about the modern proposed future of Destiny 2, use what you have with Destiny 2.

SECOND; It's a lazy argument. It demands to exist, with out due exercise as of why it should be even considered. The fact the argument exists is not enough.

Third and Final; It's so OPEN. It conforms to whatever subtle differential argument you might have. What it means for Person 1 may be different then what it means for Person 2. It doesn't matter though, eh, as long as we think were are saying the same thing.

YEAH BUNGIE TAKE THIS RE-CONTEXT'D "QUOTE"! YEAH! "WE" JUST SHOWED YOU! I FEEL LIKE I SAID SOMETHING, AND YOU'LL KNOW WHAT IT MEANS FOR ME! ALL OF THE ME!

Every time this gets posted and spreads about, I can't help but think that it reeks of pretense in cleverness. It's as if posting this everywhere is the height of rebuttal. To me, it exists no more to be smug and or feel good, because it's easy, and it feels like it says something when you don't consider things as mentioned.

Disclaimer: I am IN NO WAY presently a fan of Sunsetting for Destiny 2, or possibly whatever else this quote may be used to "refute", but DAM IT! A little decorum and consideration goes a long way. Just, if there is something to say then SAY IT, don't spray it, yes? There is plenty of content to reference from without digressing into the argument methodology of playground children or political pundits, though I repeat myself. I also may have insulted the whole of the worlds children, and to that end I apologize.

SIDENOTE: Back 2015 was the BIG in-movie "Back to the Future" anniversary, which I suspect is when our timeline split into...well here we are. At this point there was all sorts of fervor about this, and naturally all the talk shows were doing SOMETHING about it. Kimmel did a big bit about it. At one point, as I link to the segment on YouTube that I can't guarantee will always work, they talk about smartphones. The reaction that Christopher Lloyd presents though Doc Brown, is perfect.

"Great Scott! It's a Tiny Supercomputer. This must allow Astrophysicists to triangulate complex... equations... in real time!"

To which Kimmel replys: "Yeaaah! Well, I guess it probably could do that, but mainly we primarily use it to send little smiley faces to each other." To which received a laugh, real or otherwise.

It's haunted me ever since.

Alright... time to go re-adjust the spinfoil.

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And there it is.

by bluerunner @, Music City, Friday, May 22, 2020, 04:11 (8 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

Um...I read all that and I'm still not sure what your point is...

Mine's pretty simple: When I came into Destiny I looked forward to what that quote said, that I would have items that became personal to me because they never became obsolete, and that I never felt like I wasted my time. That was their goal. They abandoned that goal. If you read it in context, that statement was after the community voiced displeasure with weapons becoming obsolete. They've continued though to do what they said they didnt want to do over and over, and this has become the last straw for several people.

My goal for Destiny has been to build a consistent character with consistent weapons that I spent time with completing more challenging activities. Originally Bungie's goal met mine. Now their goal is for me to continously grind for the same weapons over and over in order to do those challenging activities. I don't want to do that, therefore I dont want to play.

And there it is.

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Friday, May 22, 2020, 06:53 (7 days ago) @ bluerunner

Um...I read all that and I'm still not sure what your point is...

INSANEdrive in a nutshell

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And there it is.

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Friday, May 22, 2020, 07:26 (7 days ago) @ someotherguy

Um...I read all that and I'm still not sure what your point is...


INSANEdrive in a nutshell

Careful, Vagueness will decide that you’re anti-Semitic or transphobic or something if you attack INSANEdrive like that.

But I think calling an easy, quantifiable point “lazy” is a bad deflection of the clarity of the original intentions, and I sympathize with how people can hang onto those words as having had a specific intent, one which Bungie has ultimately decided against (one could argue they never truly believed in it, but that’s for another day).

Anyway, play Remnant: From the Ashes. Available on Gamepass.

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And there it is.

by cheapLEY @, Friday, May 22, 2020, 07:33 (7 days ago) @ Korny

Anyway, play Remnant: From the Ashes. Available on Gamepass.

Hit me up. I’m gone this weekend, but I definitely want to play more. We need to talk stabbim into getting it.

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And there it is.

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Friday, May 22, 2020, 13:45 (7 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I'm not uninterested, but the combat looks so punishing. I generally don't have a good time with games where you can just die instantly from one brief mistake.

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And there it is.

by cheapLEY @, Friday, May 22, 2020, 13:54 (7 days ago) @ stabbim

I don’t think it’s severely punishing. Not the way it might look. But I can’t say that you would feel the same. It’s a fine balance between difficult and punishing. The game gives you plenty of tools, but in my experience you can’t take more than a few hits without healing up.

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Kadir beneath Mo Moteh.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Friday, May 22, 2020, 10:00 (7 days ago) @ bluerunner

Um...I read all that and I'm still not sure what your point is...

Yeah. I suspected that was one of the likely responses, as is the is the "more electrons than protons" brigade (-1) immediately right after it (y'all are like clockwork). I do apologize for that, I really shouldn't be posting so late. It certainly doesn't help things, seeing as I've slowly become seemingly the forum climbing fish communicatively. And I suppose I have been weighing too heavily on the hopes that others will perceive past any subtle (subtle) metaphor I give, hence the title by the way. Alas, I have become woe.

So here is the quick quick version I had not access to when I first wrote... Why didn't you lead with this?

Mine's pretty simple: When I came into Destiny I looked forward to what that quote said, that I would have items that became personal to me because they never became obsolete, and that I never felt like I wasted my time. That was their goal. They abandoned that goal. If you read it in context, that statement was after the community voiced displeasure with weapons becoming obsolete. They've continued though to do what they said they didnt want to do over and over, and this has become the last straw for several people.

My goal for Destiny has been to build a consistent character with consistent weapons that I spent time with completing more challenging activities. Originally Bungie's goal met mine. Now their goal is for me to continously grind for the same weapons over and over in order to do those challenging activities. I don't want to do that, therefore I dont want to play.

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Kadir beneath Mo Moteh.

by cheapLEY @, Friday, May 22, 2020, 10:14 (7 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

He didn’t say it explicitly, I guess, but doesn’t the quote he posted and bolded essentially make that point?

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Kadir beneath Mo Moteh.

by bluerunner @, Music City, Friday, May 22, 2020, 10:27 (7 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I thought it was implied, but I could have fleshed it out. I'm the ying to Insane's yang on getting my point across.

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No.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Friday, May 22, 2020, 11:15 (7 days ago) @ cheapLEY

He didn’t say it explicitly, I guess, but doesn’t the quote he posted and bolded essentially make that point?

No.

I knew when I was posting that I was jumping into a brier patch. Yet I had to give it a go. I'd like to elaborate further, using in part what I've already put down but I honestly wonder if it would be worth the effort at this time. Damed if I do, will anyone understand? Does anyone even want to understand? Damed it I don't, present status quo.

No.

by Claude Errera @, Friday, May 22, 2020, 11:36 (7 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

He didn’t say it explicitly, I guess, but doesn’t the quote he posted and bolded essentially make that point?


No.

I knew when I was posting that I was jumping into a brier patch. Yet I had to give it a go. I'd like to elaborate further, using in part what I've already put down but I honestly wonder if it would be worth the effort at this time. Damed if I do, will anyone understand? Does anyone even want to understand? Damed it I don't, present status quo.

I gotta ask... what ELSE does that quote imply?

I've seen it all over the place, too - and in every case that I can remember, the person posting it was doing so for the same reason that Blue was doing it. To me, it's a pretty obvious implication, and the idea that it was made in D1, and so doesn't really apply to D2 is nonsensical. Either you respect your users' time, or you don't.

I'm honestly curious about what you think people are being lazy about - what else could it POSSIBLY mean? Or, more relevantly, what POSSIBLE justification could there be for saying that Bungie shouldn't be held to account for this philosophy change?

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And they pull me back in.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Friday, May 22, 2020, 13:48 (7 days ago) @ Claude Errera

He didn’t say it explicitly, I guess, but doesn’t the quote he posted and bolded essentially make that point?


No.

I knew when I was posting that I was jumping into a brier patch. Yet I had to give it a go. I'd like to elaborate further, using in part what I've already put down but I honestly wonder if it would be worth the effort at this time. Damed if I do, will anyone understand? Does anyone even want to understand? Damed it I don't, present status quo.


I gotta ask... what ELSE does that quote imply?

I've seen it all over the place, too - and in every case that I can remember, the person posting it was doing so for the same reason that Blue was doing it. To me, it's a pretty obvious implication, and the idea that it was made in D1, and so doesn't really apply to D2 is nonsensical. Either you respect your users' time, or you don't.

I disagree. D1 is not D2. Y'all raided recently, and no doubt you felt the subtle differences. But let us for a moment entertain the concept that D1 = D2 or what have you. Well then folks, if that truly is the case, then ALL THIS EMOTION AND TEXT AFTER TEXT AND RANT AFTER RANT... is bullshit. Then Sunsetting is a good idea, and we the entire fanbase have simply grown gluttonous. Shoot, it might still be the case, how are we to know until we get there. I agree it sure doesn't feel that way right now.

We've done this before. This "Sunsetting". Back in D1 we did this, and the sky didn't fall. It still sucked, yes, but the game was still trying to figure out what it was. With Destiny 2, after 2 Years 8 Months since Destiny 2’s launch, the concrete in understanding what this game is wholly about has set. The gameplay loop, while always changing here and there, has been fairly solid for a long time and now Bungie is pecking at the very foundations (and choosing the worst methods to do it might I add).


I'm honestly curious about what you think people are being lazy about - what else could it POSSIBLY mean? Or, more relevantly, what POSSIBLE justification could there be for saying that Bungie shouldn't be held to account for this philosophy change?

Hmm. Y'all didn't see when it happened, but as I was writing this portion of the rebuttal here I relalized I could sum up alot by saying what I've said here before; "It's not what you say but how you say it." It's the easiest description I can give without breathlessly going into a long bit of text that possibly few will get anyway.

Yet it there is also one more thing I thought of that can present alot of what I would like to say simply; My protest is of the Hive Mind.

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And they pull me back in.

by bluerunner @, Music City, Friday, May 22, 2020, 14:01 (7 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

We've done this before. This "Sunsetting". Back in D1 we did this, and the sky didn't fall. It still sucked, yes, but the game was still trying to figure out what it was. With Destiny 2, after 2 Years 8 Months since Destiny 2’s launch, the concrete in understanding what this game is wholly about has set

Has it? I still think they havent figured out what they want this to be. I suspect after the next large expansion there's going to be another shift in how they do the game.

And maybe the sky didn't fall with the previous sunsetting, but eventually a line needs to be drawn. They say they don't want to make me feel like I am wasting my time, but I don't believe it anymore. I've lost trust in their communication. There's an old saying in Tennessee, I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee,that says, "fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, you can't get fooled again." Or something like that.

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Yeah. I feel that.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Friday, May 22, 2020, 14:10 (7 days ago) @ bluerunner

- No text -

And they pull me back in.

by Claude Errera @, Friday, May 22, 2020, 14:03 (7 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

He didn’t say it explicitly, I guess, but doesn’t the quote he posted and bolded essentially make that point?


No.

I knew when I was posting that I was jumping into a brier patch. Yet I had to give it a go. I'd like to elaborate further, using in part what I've already put down but I honestly wonder if it would be worth the effort at this time. Damed if I do, will anyone understand? Does anyone even want to understand? Damed it I don't, present status quo.


I gotta ask... what ELSE does that quote imply?

I've seen it all over the place, too - and in every case that I can remember, the person posting it was doing so for the same reason that Blue was doing it. To me, it's a pretty obvious implication, and the idea that it was made in D1, and so doesn't really apply to D2 is nonsensical. Either you respect your users' time, or you don't.


I disagree. D1 is not D2. Y'all raided recently, and no doubt you felt the subtle differences. But let us for a moment entertain the concept that D1 = D2 or what have you. Well then folks, if that truly is the case, then ALL THIS EMOTION AND TEXT AFTER TEXT AND RANT AFTER RANT... is bullshit. Then Sunsetting is a good idea, and we the entire fanbase have simply grown gluttonous. Shoot, it might still be the case, how are we to know until we get there. I agree it sure doesn't feel that way right now.

You blew up after ONE post (Bluerunner's). Nobody else here had mentioned that post at all.

But wait... let's back up a step. You're saying that the only way I can say that if that statement applies to D1, that it should apply to D2, is if I agree that they're the same game?

I don't buy that argument for a second.

Bungie hasn't made a loot game before... but let's say they'd come out with Halo: Reach, and said "we've decided Saved Films are too much trouble, we're not including them any more", I'd have been unhappy. For the same reason I'm unhappy here. And I would argue that Halo: Reach is NOT Halo 3.

It's not about them being the same game. It's about them doing something, getting community backlash for it, APOLOGIZING BECAUSE THEY HADN'T CONSIDERED THE CONSEQUENCES... and then doing it again anyway.

Yes, they did this in D1. Yes, we all know that - that quote came from the backlash from that very action! "We sunset a lot of weapons, we hadn't realized it would make you feel like we disrespected you, we won't do that again." That's what they were saying.

And yet, here they are again, doing it again.

No, the sky won't fall. Doesn't mean I'm not disappointed that present-day Bungie decided the lesson that 5-years-ago Bungie learned wasn't relevant any more.

My protest is of the Hive Mind.

Okay, I guess I understand that - but did you really believe that Bluerunner (of all people) was blindly hive-minding along rather than think that maybe he really was disappointed by the change in attitude?

You jumped on him as though you were totally sick of the flood of repeated arguments... when, in reality (as you even acknowledged), his was the FIRST instance of that argument here. That seems pretty unfair of you.

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And they pull me back in.

by bluerunner @, Music City, Friday, May 22, 2020, 14:08 (7 days ago) @ Claude Errera

I appreciate it, but I'm not mad at Insane or anything. He's cool. I enjoy playing together.

But lol, somebody with my weird bag of hobbies hasn't been called a hive mind.

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And they pull me back in.

by cheapLEY @, Friday, May 22, 2020, 14:16 (7 days ago) @ bluerunner

Pfft. Please. You’re just like everyone else that enjoys sleeping in a sack tied to a tree!

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And they pull me back in.

by bluerunner @, Music City, Friday, May 22, 2020, 15:17 (7 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Pfft. Please. You’re just like everyone else that enjoys sleeping in a sack tied to a tree!

I did last weekend. Had a good time, other than when I realized I packed the wrong socks and ended up walking 40 miles over mountains with my blistered, bruised, and bloody feet wrapped in ace bandages. But I did almost get attacked by a wild hog, so pretty fun weekend. I plan to go back up in a couple of weeks.

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Sounds very hive-like to me

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, May 25, 2020, 08:00 (4 days ago) @ cheapLEY

- No text -

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My goodness.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Friday, May 22, 2020, 14:50 (7 days ago) @ Claude Errera

Note... I have moved around the quote for the sake of topic coherence.

But wait... let's back up a step. You're saying that the only way I can say that if that statement applies to D1, that it should apply to D2, is if I agree that they're the same game?

I don't buy that argument for a second.

Bungie hasn't made a loot game before... but let's say they'd come out with Halo: Reach, and said "we've decided Saved Films are too much trouble, we're not including them any more", I'd have been unhappy. For the same reason I'm unhappy here. And I would argue that Halo: Reach is NOT Halo 3.

It's not about them being the same game. It's about them doing something, getting community backlash for it, APOLOGIZING BECAUSE THEY HADN'T CONSIDERED THE CONSEQUENCES... and then doing it again anyway.

Yes, they did this in D1. Yes, we all know that - that quote came from the backlash from that very action! "We sunset a lot of weapons, we hadn't realized it would make you feel like we disrespected you, we won't do that again." That's what they were saying.

And yet, here they are again, doing it again.

No, the sky won't fall. Doesn't mean I'm not disappointed that present-day Bungie decided the lesson that 5-years-ago Bungie learned wasn't relevant any more.

Again, I get it, I (mostly) agree with you. What you have just put here HAS 1000X more meaning than that Copy and Paste! THIS IS WHAT IT MEANS FOR YOU! How would Bungie know that unless you write it out. I guarantee you, if EVERY ONE OF US wrote down our thoughts about this and sent it to Bungie, like alot of what I've elicited now, it would have 1000X more oomph. It would have more meaning and substance, than all of us mindlessly copy and pasteing that DAM'd quote as if it was a letter to Harry Potter, left to be recklessly interpreted again as if from the Monkeys Paw.

My protest is of the Hive Mind.

You blew up after ONE post (Bluerunner's). Nobody else here had mentioned that post at all. ...

... Okay, I guess I understand that - but did you really believe that Bluerunner (of all people) was blindly hive-minding along rather than think that maybe he really was disappointed by the change in attitude?

You jumped on him as though you were totally sick of the flood of repeated arguments... when, in reality (as you even acknowledged), his was the FIRST instance of that argument here. That seems pretty unfair of you.

NO! NO NO NO! DO YOU EVEN READ WORDS!!!

This isn't directed at anyone. Blue, you are as much a victim (or whatever the right blasted word would be) as any of us can be.

I saw that it was here, and was saddend. WHO posted it is irrelevant. I mean, shit, I respect that I may have done a piss poor job in describing what I see. Knowing I was about to go against the grain, I should not have posted something so fundamentally challenging so late. Yet when I saw it I knew there was no more time. It been spreading like wildfire, and I was afraid what it was to elicit here. Seems I was mistaken, its far far too late now. "The disease was already here". But DAM IT! If you don't even read the dam words, that ain't on me! I RESENT IT!

Jumped on BLUE? Please. The audacity.

Yikes

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Friday, May 22, 2020, 22:14 (7 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

- No text -

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Dumbledore Asked Calmly

by Morpheus @, High Charity, Friday, May 22, 2020, 22:21 (7 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

- No text -

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Well, this is obviously a mistake

by Vortech @, A Fourth Wheel, Sunday, May 24, 2020, 11:33 (5 days ago) @ Claude Errera

I think I know what Insane is trying to say, here. Let me take a shot: People are posting it like it's a trump card. They are being a "rules lawyer" to steal a phrase from another part of gaming. So, if they are posting that with the implication that they "won" under the rules of Argue with Bungie: the Game, Insane is saying their trump card is invalid because bungie didn't technically say that about D2 so that card is from a different set and not valid for play. Also possibly, we have the "I voted for it before I voted against it" problem where people are holding that up as a flip-flopping problem or as hypocrisy, when you could instead look at it as being reasonable and changing your opinion as you gain more knowledge and experience given that the statements are separated by a fair amount of time for things to have changed.

These are not my words, so maybe I'm reading Insane wrong and I'll be arguing against the wind, but That said, if I am reading it right: you trying to shut down people being a rules lawyer by finding a way to exclude them through strict and unshared interpretation of the rules (which do not have universal agreement anyway) is really just more of the problem.

And, if the problem is people trying to do some low-effort argument by copying in some old statements rather than taking the time to make their own argument in a way that people can understand what is at issue…well, I have to say that very few people seemed to understand what your argument was and in the past you have said that's essentially "Just how it comes out of you naturally" (somehow implying that means nothing can be done to improve clarity, I guess?). Seems to me like you should either put in more effort to be understood, or put in no effort and give up the enterprise all together. right now you seem to have found the nadir of value along the effort scale where what effort you do put in is largely wasted in confusion.

Well, this is obviously a mistake

by Claude Errera @, Sunday, May 24, 2020, 13:42 (5 days ago) @ Vortech

I think I know what Insane is trying to say, here. Let me take a shot: People are posting it like it's a trump card. They are being a "rules lawyer" to steal a phrase from another part of gaming. So, if they are posting that with the implication that they "won" under the rules of Argue with Bungie: the Game, Insane is saying their trump card is invalid because bungie didn't technically say that about D2 so that card is from a different set and not valid for play. Also possibly, we have the "I voted for it before I voted against it" problem where people are holding that up as a flip-flopping problem or as hypocrisy, when you could instead look at it as being reasonable and changing your opinion as you gain more knowledge and experience given that the statements are separated by a fair amount of time for things to have changed.

These are not my words, so maybe I'm reading Insane wrong and I'll be arguing against the wind, but That said, if I am reading it right: you trying to shut down people being a rules lawyer by finding a way to exclude them through strict and unshared interpretation of the rules (which do not have universal agreement anyway) is really just more of the problem.

And, if the problem is people trying to do some low-effort argument by copying in some old statements rather than taking the time to make their own argument in a way that people can understand what is at issue…well, I have to say that very few people seemed to understand what your argument was and in the past you have said that's essentially "Just how it comes out of you naturally" (somehow implying that means nothing can be done to improve clarity, I guess?). Seems to me like you should either put in more effort to be understood, or put in no effort and give up the enterprise all together. right now you seem to have found the nadir of value along the effort scale where what effort you do put in is largely wasted in confusion.

It's unclear to me whether the 'you' spread throughout that last paragraph is me (the person you're replying to) or Insane (the person whose argument you're trying to clarify)... but either way, I guess I understand the gist of what you're getting at.

The whole flip-flop thing isn't really a problem for me, in general; things happen that change the way other things work. However, the problem I have with this particular case is specific: they weren't apologizing for sunsetting weapons in D1, they were apologizing for doing so in a way that made us think our time was not being respected. Maybe that's a subtle difference - but to me it's a critical one.

Needing to sunset weapons for a practical reason ("we simply don't have the manpower to keep track of the interactions between 800 weapons and all of their various perks", maybe) is just a Thing That Is. If it has to happen, it has to happen.

Given, however, that they did this wrong once, and ACKNOWLEDGED that they did it wrong... maybe the most important part of the job of the community team is to communicate with the fanbase in a way that makes it clear that this is NOT happening because they don't care about us, it's happening BECAUSE they care about us. And this wasn't done. (Or at least it wasn't done in a way that lets even someone like me, who's more than happy to give them the benefit of the doubt most of the time, see that that's what they meant.)

It is happening. That much is clear. Why it has to happen the WAY it's happening, and why we're not getting a more honest "we're doing everything we can to mitigate the pain, like X, Y, and Z"... that's the part I can't explain. And the reason it matters is that statement they made 5 years ago.

I guess that's where I'm coming from.

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Sorry; “you” referred to Insane.

by Vortech @, A Fourth Wheel, Monday, May 25, 2020, 13:25 (4 days ago) @ Claude Errera

- No text -

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Sokath, his eyes uncovered!!! :D

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Sunday, May 24, 2020, 19:10 (5 days ago) @ Vortech

I think I know what Insane is trying to say, here. Let me take a shot: People are posting it like it's a trump card. They are being a "rules lawyer" to steal a phrase from another part of gaming. So, if they are posting that with the implication that they "won" under the rules of Argue with Bungie: the Game, Insane is saying their trump card is invalid because bungie didn't technically say that about D2 so that card is from a different set and not valid for play. Also possibly, we have the "I voted for it before I voted against it" problem where people are holding that up as a flip-flopping problem or as hypocrisy, when you could instead look at it as being reasonable and changing your opinion as you gain more knowledge and experience given that the statements are separated by a fair amount of time for things to have changed. ...

...people trying to do some low-effort argument by copying in some old statements rather than taking the time to make their own argument...

[image]

OH MY GOODNESS I'M SO HAPPY! AAAA! I'm ALIVE!

...Seems to me like you should either put in more effort to be understood, or put in no effort and give up the enterprise all together...

...you trying to shut down people being a rules lawyer by finding a way to exclude them through strict and unshared interpretation of the rules (which do not have universal agreement anyway) is really just more of the problem. ...

...right now you seem to have found the nadir of value along the effort scale where what effort you do put in is largely wasted in confusion.

I'm going to say... mostly correct. The only way to get better at something is by doing. With conversations, of all types, that means I must speak. Here, I must do it with words alone. I'm not shaking hands, looking you folks in the eye, complementing a suit or a dress. Holding my back straight and true while doing some rendition in charm, should I have any. Such social bits mean nothing here. We're characters, made alive in text alone. I'm to battle the unknown interpretation of an international crowd whom find myself addressing. You can see what I mean in this thread... the responses and choices to engage are very different. Thus, I must reject some of your input, as the answer you essentially present is death.

And I did realize after the fact that the approach I made was not without irony. Made quite the chuckle after the slight slap to the noggin. As I stated... somewhere around here, I felt in the moments instance that a response was under the clock. It was this that overpowered other factors that said... to be simple... "Stop".

There is an adage; "This too shall pass". Had I stopped and not put my words under the other deadline of getting back to bed, I would of been able to speak at least with touch more... consideration. Like, in fact, I've been doing here in this text. I've edited this like... a dozen times already.

Thank you for your read and input, Vortech.

Also... as a side note, I've never heard of the phrase "rules lawyer" nor the word "nadir" before, so thanks for that too. ^_^ Gonna see if I can add that to the lexicon! (Sorry someguy.)

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Sokath, his eyes uncovered!!! :D

by Vortech @, A Fourth Wheel, Monday, May 25, 2020, 13:24 (4 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

I never said the solution was to stop posting, nor did I want to imply it.

Rules lawyer is a very common phrase in board gaming (and I think all of tabletop, but that’s outside my experience)

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Just sayin'

by Pyromancy @, Wednesday, May 27, 2020, 10:26 (2 days ago) @ INSANEdrive
edited by Pyromancy, Wednesday, May 27, 2020, 10:32

Also... as a side note, I've never heard ... the word "nadir" before,

Just sayin'

If D is for Destiny then N is for...

I know, I know, that in-game as a weapon foundry it is not within context of the true actual word usage.
It helped stick in my mind knowing the word prior to seeing it on an emblem in Destiny

I always get a kick out of it when I hear someone use the word in conversation and they pronounce it like Nader, i.e. Ralph Nader :D

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Just sayin'

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Wednesday, May 27, 2020, 11:37 (2 days ago) @ Pyromancy

Also... as a side note, I've never heard ... the word "nadir" before,


Just sayin'

If D is for Destiny then N is for...

I know, I know, that in-game as a weapon foundry it is not within context of the true actual word usage.
It helped stick in my mind knowing the word prior to seeing it on an emblem in Destiny

I always get a kick out of it when I hear someone use the word in conversation and they pronounce it like Nader, i.e. Ralph Nader :D

[image]

LOL...AH-HAHA WOW! This has to be one of the most random posts ever, and I'm not talking about just mine, but... here it is. THERE, IT IS! No recollection of this AT ALL, and knowing 2016 variant me (HUG YOUR CAT!), I was probably so intrigued by the visual similarity of the iconography that I didn't think nor consider anything about the name. Plus... I've never really cared much for Destiny emblems. Just, ain't my thing oddly enough.

Man, thank you for this post. Ain't that something. ...Aw man, Heh heh.

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; )

by Pyromancy @, Wednesday, May 27, 2020, 14:21 (2 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

- No text -

Do you even read what you write?

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Friday, May 22, 2020, 10:27 (7 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

"More electrons than protons brigade". What even is the intent of obfuscating your meaning like that?

Is it supposed to be funny? Signal how #iamverysmart you are? Put people on the back foot? Or is that genuinely how you think humans talk?

I'm onto you, Robot.

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Do you even read what you write?

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Friday, May 22, 2020, 11:04 (7 days ago) @ someotherguy

"More electrons than protons brigade". What even is the intent of obfuscating your meaning like that?

Is it supposed to be funny? Signal how #iamverysmart you are? Put people on the back foot? Or is that genuinely how you think humans talk?

I'm onto you, Robot.

To answer the title, every time. And the purpose in this instant was actually in part a mockery of myself (in the text speaking how I over use metaphor).

And no, no you're not. To what I have seen (including your post here), you're not even close.

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THAB - More Good Ideas Addition

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Friday, May 22, 2020, 09:45 (7 days ago) @ bluerunner

Bungie is redeemimg their unpopular decisions and broken quest of the last week by letting us know that they are nerfing popular reloading perks and there will be less loot next season.

https://www.bungie.net/en/News/Article/49126


I was reading like “I wonder how they’re going to acknowledge the universal backlash towards Sunsetting?”
Doubling down was not what I expected as far as a response. Nerfing reload and damage perks while simultaneously killing the popular world drops is almost a parody response. Big yikes (hugs Outlaw Duke).


This hurts:
BUNGIE WEEKLY UPDATE - 12/04/2014
https://www.bungie.net/en/News/Article/12447/7_bungie-weekly-update---12042014

In the months to come, your quest to become more powerful will have more avenues that lead to satisfaction. The last thing we wanted was for you to look at your favorite gun or helmet and decide that it had become obsolete. Since the reveal, we’ve read a lot of ideas for how this could have been done better. Your feedback is clear: The time you have invested in your stuff should be respected.

It just occurred to me that Destiny is the only game I've ever played where the developers not only fail to create new content that I enjoy some of the time, but actively dig into the game and rip out the parts that I already love. What a strange game, lol

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THAB - More Good Ideas Addition

by squidnh3, Friday, May 22, 2020, 10:16 (7 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

It just occurred to me that Destiny is the only game I've ever played where the developers not only fail to create new content that I enjoy some of the time, but actively dig into the game and rip out the parts that I already love. What a strange game, lol

I've often felt about Bungie the way Damocles felt about the sword hanging above his head.

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THAB - More Good Ideas Addition

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, May 22, 2020, 09:51 (7 days ago) @ bluerunner

The time you have invested in your stuff should be respected.[/i]

This notion of time being 'respected' keeps coming up again and again.

https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=6921

The continual dependence on the game's value in being guns and armor as rewards is what is actually killing, and has always killed the game. If the time you spend is only valuable because of your reward, then take the reward away and now your time is felt to be wasted. The entire approach is flawed. The only winning move is not to design a game this way.

The time should be intrinsically valuable. The road the joy and not the destination. Guns and armor as a means to have fun, not as an end themselves.

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THAB - More Good Ideas Addition

by cheapLEY @, Friday, May 22, 2020, 10:08 (7 days ago) @ Cody Miller

The activities I did were fun for their own sake. Raiding is almost always fun, even when I still didn’t get Anarchy or whatever at the end of it.

However, the weapons in Destiny are a large part of the fun. The climb to Luna’s was fun—I enjoyed nearly every minute of it. I still wouldn’t have played that much Competitive without chasing Luna’s Howl. Taking that gun away doesn’t make that time wasted. It was still fun. It does make it far less likely that I’ll ever do it again, though. And taking Luna’s Howl way does directly take away my fun with the game. I like that gun, other guns are less fun to use.

Didn’t you grind out Redrix’s? Would you have played that much Competitive just for its own sake?

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THAB - More Good Ideas Addition

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, May 22, 2020, 10:28 (7 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Didn’t you grind out Redrix’s? Would you have played that much Competitive just for its own sake?

Probably not as much no.

But having to double my K/D in order to get good enough to do it was actually a blast. They retired, and eventually nerfed the gun. But I'd still have done it again even knowing that.

Well maybe not NOW because I gave up this game.

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THAB - More Good Ideas Addition

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Friday, May 22, 2020, 13:12 (7 days ago) @ Cody Miller

If only I could think of a just-released shooter which ticked all those boxes. Hmmm...

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The carnage of words

by Robot Chickens, Friday, May 22, 2020, 12:06 (7 days ago) @ bluerunner

Other tidbit from that update

Pocket Infinity

  • Charges too quickly after the first shot
  • Fix in progress, to be released in a future update

Look at how innocuous this looks. RIP PI

Well...

by Claude Errera @, Friday, May 22, 2020, 12:12 (7 days ago) @ Robot Chickens

Other tidbit from that update

Pocket Infinity

  • Charges too quickly after the first shot
  • Fix in progress, to be released in a future update


Look at how innocuous this looks. RIP PI

...you don't think they'd have gotten away with "We're going to cut its heart out", do you?

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Well...

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Friday, May 22, 2020, 14:39 (7 days ago) @ Claude Errera

Other tidbit from that update

Pocket Infinity

  • Charges too quickly after the first shot
  • Fix in progress, to be released in a future update


Look at how innocuous this looks. RIP PI


...you don't think they'd have gotten away with "We're going to cut its heart out", do you?

I’d rather they actually say that, if that’s what they’re really going to do ;)

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Well...

by Robot Chickens, Friday, May 22, 2020, 14:51 (7 days ago) @ Claude Errera

Other tidbit from that update

Pocket Infinity

  • Charges too quickly after the first shot
  • Fix in progress, to be released in a future update


Look at how innocuous this looks. RIP PI


...you don't think they'd have gotten away with "We're going to cut its heart out", do you?

True.

IMHO:

  • Destiny is best when there are multiple powerful spikes in the meta. Suros, Mythoclast, Pocket Infinity were all annoying to be killed by, but you also had the option to pursue any of them to fit your playstyle.
  • Destiny is frustrating when only 1 playstyle dominates. That is a supreme lack of choice.
  • Destiny is at its worst when there are no spikes in the meta. This gives the illusion of choice in playstyle, but everyone just feels weak.

Giving people multiple choices without power creep is hard. Gutting an exotic probably isn't the way. Honestly, I think that random rolls kill the game. Bungie gives up too much control with this and then people chase things they will get sad about losing. Make perks better, but only give them to specific weapons. Then give those weapons a season to shine. The way they handled swords for this season is a perfect example of how it can work well- they just need to give multiple avenues for a couple weapon types to shine. When that meta goes away, people don't get all cranky because they knew it was temporary going in.

Don't take away great exotics or other great weapons. Just give incentives for other guns to compete in that space.

Oh, don't worry...

by Claude Errera @, Friday, May 22, 2020, 14:59 (7 days ago) @ Robot Chickens

The way they handled swords for this season is a perfect example of how it can work well- they just need to give multiple avenues for a couple weapon types to shine. When that meta goes away, people don't get all cranky because they knew it was temporary going in.

I'm gonna be cranky when Passive Guard goes away. Trust me. I don't CARE that I knew it was happening. Chopping a Primeval down in 10 seconds makes the Drifter's "I forgot that you'd killed a god" line feel RIGHT. I'm gonna be sad when I can't do it any more.

(Yeah, yeah, I know, it's the right thing. And yeah, I'm okay, long-term, with the idea of known temporary buffs like this, and I can tell the difference between this and what's happening with the vast majority of Destiny 2's weapons come September. Doesn't mean I'm not gonna be cranky in a couple of weeks.)

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Oh, don't worry...

by Robot Chickens, Friday, May 22, 2020, 15:03 (7 days ago) @ Claude Errera

The way they handled swords for this season is a perfect example of how it can work well- they just need to give multiple avenues for a couple weapon types to shine. When that meta goes away, people don't get all cranky because they knew it was temporary going in.


I'm gonna be cranky when Passive Guard goes away. Trust me. I don't CARE that I knew it was happening. Chopping a Primeval down in 10 seconds makes the Drifter's "I forgot that you'd killed a god" line feel RIGHT. I'm gonna be sad when I can't do it any more.

(Yeah, yeah, I know, it's the right thing. And yeah, I'm okay, long-term, with the idea of known temporary buffs like this, and I can tell the difference between this and what's happening with the vast majority of Destiny 2's weapons come September. Doesn't mean I'm not gonna be cranky in a couple of weeks.)

Yeah, maybe the crank won't go away, but at least it's easier to digest.

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Oh, don't worry...

by unoudid @, Somewhere over the rainbow, Tuesday, May 26, 2020, 06:41 (3 days ago) @ Claude Errera

(Yeah, yeah, I know, it's the right thing. And yeah, I'm okay, long-term, with the idea of known temporary buffs like this, and I can tell the difference between this and what's happening with the vast majority of Destiny 2's weapons come September. Doesn't mean I'm not gonna be cranky in a couple of weeks.)

While I started sharding the majority of the 29 Ether Doctors I just farmed this week, I started thinking about all the other god roll weapons sitting in my vault. The vast majority of those god roll weapons have never even had their time to shine. Things like an outlaw rampage Talons of the Eagle scout rifle, or my eye of the storm, moving target Infinite Paths 8 pulse. It's sad to think that some of those weapons will never get a chance due to sunsetting.

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Yeah...

by kidtsunami @, Atlanta, GA, Friday, May 29, 2020, 07:46 (10 hours, 38 minutes ago) @ Claude Errera

I was just able to carry my dad and brother through a hero level nightfall just because of passive guard. It was one of those "ok this is our last try before calling it" and I threw the sword on and just went to town. Felt so good. But I also like that I won't feel forced to use a sword all the time.

I'm actually interested in seeing how I use the new sword mechanics once the mods go away and whether I can still make them worthwhile.

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Totally agree

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, May 25, 2020, 08:11 (4 days ago) @ Robot Chickens

- No text -

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Thoughts from Cosmo23

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Friday, May 22, 2020, 13:52 (7 days ago) @ bluerunner

Quote Link

It's hard for me to speak to this since it's even older than my time at Bungie and I'll have been here 5 years in July. As community managers we are extremely careful with what we say. We try to be as accurate as possible and represent the vision of an entire studio and future proof our coms as much as possible. It can be tricky at times since Destiny is fairly complex game that is always evolving.

Back to the point, the game has changed significantly in the last 5 years and It's pretty obvious that in the moment that TWAB was written we weren't forecasting out all of the possible timelines for the next 5+ years to come Dr Who style. Infusion changes are what the team thinks is best for the games health going forward. We truly welcome any and all feedback on why you believe these changes won't be good for the game and will continue to share those thoughts with the team. We'll continue to give you details on future plans and if anything changes, we'll let you know.

I'm sorry to say I agree more with the responses.

by Claude Errera @, Friday, May 22, 2020, 14:08 (7 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

- No text -

Feeding Frenzy change makes sense tbh and is kinda cool

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Thursday, May 21, 2020, 21:41 (8 days ago) @ bluerunner

- No text -

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THAB - More Good Ideas Addition

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Friday, May 22, 2020, 12:20 (7 days ago) @ bluerunner

Bungie is redeemimg their unpopular decisions and broken quest of the last week by letting us know that they are nerfing popular reloading perks and there will be less loot next season.

https://www.bungie.net/en/News/Article/49126

This is good. Painful and distressing, but good. Fortunately the concept of why is far less analogous, and easier to explain. First, I'm going to quote myself from here...

The perk pool could definitely use a tune up, and I would go so far as to blanket remove raw damage buff perks entirely. Kill Clip or Rampage? Gone, replaced with something else. Vorpal Weapon? Still there, as its boost is conditional, not "raw-m0re-damage-all-the-things".

Confession time. There is something satisfyingly visceral to a reload in games. It's honestly musical, probably because it's all sound deigned. I focused on Damage perks alone because I really enjoy weapons with reload perks in Destiny 2, even though I know it's all so fundamentally broken. I didn't want to admit it then, as I still wanted to hope. A sort of "Don't say anything or Sage will nerf it" type deal.

What is a Godroll in this game right now? What has it been for a while? While it varies per gun, with magazines, scopes, and what not, but you can guarantee it's probably this: Reload Boosting Perk & Damage Boosting perk. It's fun and very effective but it's not healthy to the game. Even with the various variants in type or distribution of the benefit, it's stagnating. It makes other perks fundamentally irrelevant. There needs to be more variety in perks and they say as much in this TWAB. One way to do that is make it so that reload perks don't hold all the cards in their assist towards the kills. It hurts, but it's the right thing to do.

Back, not sure how long ago now, you made a thread where you mentioned that in the Menagerie you could get a Fusion Rifle with Feeding Frenzy. Feeding Frenzy is, was my JAM. I got a Fusion Rifle with Feeding Frenzy & Back Up Mag. It was a blast to use, literately. With this TWAB, I now know that it's to be fundamentally fully nerfed now, and I admit I do feel an air of sadness. It was so much fun to use as it was. Perhaps it still will be... for a few months. :/

With all that said, there is one more thing. The WORST thing Bungie has ever done.

  • Hipfire Grip -- Now helps you hit shots closer to ADS ranges, still doesn't affect damage dropoff or magnetism.
    • 1.2x aim assist falloff.
    • +15 aim assist.
    • +1.7 degrees precision hip fire angle threshold.
      • By default, when hip-firing a weapon, the center of your reticle must be over a target in order to get a crit, otherwise aim assist will give you a body shot. This change gives you a little leniency, so if the center of your reticle is not directly over a target you will still get the crit if you’re within this angle.
      • Has no effect on Sniper Rifles.

Has no effect on Sniper Rifles!? Well CRAP! There goes the 360 No-Scope Meta. :P

THAB - More Good Ideas Addition

by Claude Errera @, Friday, May 22, 2020, 12:49 (7 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

What is a Godroll in this game right now? What has it been for a while? While it varies per gun, with magazines, scopes, and what not, but you can guarantee it's probably this: Reload Boosting Perk & Damage Boosting perk. It's fun and very effective but it's not healthy to the game.

But that's NOT the only godroll in the game. During the easy-farm Fractaline season, I did some research, watched some videos from streamers who've tested this stuff to hell and back. The accepted 'godroll' for Traveler's Judgement 5 was Rapid Hit/Tap the Trigger (yes, Rapid Hit falls into your class, but Tap the Trigger does not).

Recently, I played with unoudid as he farmed for his godroll Ether Doctor - he was looking for Dynamic Sway Reduction/Rangefinder. Neither perk falls into your categories above.

So I don't buy your initial point. (I guess it was Bungie's initial point, but still...)

HOWEVER, that's not even the biggest argument, for me. Here's the thing: if you say "we want to make people look to other perks, so we're going to nerf them (sorry, "retune them") to make other perks more appealing", it seems to me you've missed one of the critical pieces of being a Destiny player. I'm a Guardian. Along with a small group of colleagues, we've saved humanity from a number of overpowered threats - Gods, even. TREAT ME LIKE ONE.

You could make people focus on other perks SIMPLY BY MAKING ALL RELOADING FASTER, NOT SLOWER. Yes, level it out - ON THE UPPER SIDE. Make the perk irrelevant because it doesn't change my gameplay, but don't do it in a way that makes me feel like a wet noodle.

In short: make me feel powerful. I'll play more.

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THAB - More Good Ideas Addition

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Friday, May 22, 2020, 13:16 (7 days ago) @ Claude Errera

What is a Godroll in this game right now? What has it been for a while? While it varies per gun, with magazines, scopes, and what not, but you can guarantee it's probably this: Reload Boosting Perk & Damage Boosting perk. It's fun and very effective but it's not healthy to the game.


But that's NOT the only godroll in the game. ...

My aren't I having quite the evening.

Wu, I never said that. What I said was about the weighting. They are too good, and they fight everything else. Let me put it this way; At one point, often watched Fallout review weapons for god-rolls. After a while I stopped. Guess why, if you need to.

HOWEVER, that's not even the biggest argument, for me. Here's the thing: if you say "we want to make people look to other perks, so we're going to nerf them (sorry, "retune them") to make other perks more appealing", it seems to me you've missed one of the critical pieces of being a Destiny player. I'm a Guardian. Along with a small group of colleagues, we've saved humanity from a number of overpowered threats - Gods, even. TREAT ME LIKE ONE.

This is how I feel about Supers in PvP, but here we are.

THAB - More Good Ideas Addition

by Claude Errera @, Friday, May 22, 2020, 13:40 (7 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

This is how I feel about Supers in PvP, but here we are.

Yeah, except that you're arguing that the nerfs are a good idea (in your words, "It's fun and very effective but it's not healthy to the game"). And you're arguing that people who aren't happy are being lazy (see the start of this subthread).

I'm arguing that you can make other perks relevant without making me feel weak. And I'm arguing that the sunsetting messaging has been inconsistent at best, and dishonest at worst (originally, I argued that sunsetting wasn't going to be terrible, because we were going to have 9-15 months once it started before we needed to worry about it... but 3 months later, they were more specific, and now it's clear that most guns that are currently in rotation are being sunset just over 3 months from now).

Your unhappiness with the way supers are in PvP doesn't really tie in to your earlier arguments in this thread.

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THAB - More Good Ideas Addition

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Friday, May 22, 2020, 14:08 (7 days ago) @ Claude Errera

This is how I feel about Supers in PvP, but here we are.


Yeah, except that you're arguing that the nerfs are a good idea (in your words, "It's fun and very effective but it's not healthy to the game"). And you're arguing that people who aren't happy are being lazy (see the start of this subthread).

I'm arguing that you can make other perks relevant without making me feel weak. And I'm arguing that the sunsetting messaging has been inconsistent at best, and dishonest at worst (originally, I argued that sunsetting wasn't going to be terrible, because we were going to have 9-15 months once it started before we needed to worry about it... but 3 months later, they were more specific, and now it's clear that most guns that are currently in rotation are being sunset just over 3 months from now).

Your unhappiness with the way supers are in PvP doesn't really tie in to your earlier arguments in this thread.

WU! What are you doing, this is so unlike you. You are usually far more measured. I understand what you are arguing. I get it! You want to hook those perks STRAIGHT INTO THE VAINS! LET'S GET HIGH ON DA POW(D)ER! I'm just sayin'... yo, check yo' self. Try a new perspective. A fresh understanding. It's ok if you still disagree, and clearly this sure seems to be how it's going to be.

Presuming we stay with it, I suppose we're going to find out either way.

THAB - More Good Ideas Addition

by Claude Errera @, Friday, May 22, 2020, 14:15 (7 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

I gotta say, I find it somewhat offensive that your response to me disagreeing with you is that maybe I should try a fresh perspective.

As though I haven't stayed out of the discussion entirely for more than a week, specifically because I didn't want to go off half-cocked.

This is my opinion. It's a considered opinion. I'm totally good with you disagreeing with it, but I'm not good at all with you telling me to back up and think about it before jumping in.

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THAB - More Good Ideas Addition

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Friday, May 22, 2020, 14:55 (7 days ago) @ Claude Errera

I gotta say, I find it somewhat offensive that your response to me disagreeing with you is that maybe I should try a fresh perspective.

As though I haven't stayed out of the discussion entirely for more than a week, specifically because I didn't want to go off half-cocked.

This is my opinion. It's a considered opinion. I'm totally good with you disagreeing with it, but I'm not good at all with you telling me to back up and think about it before jumping in.

So... you think I'm trying to insult you? Man. I'm done with this back and forth. You're in too deep Wu. And... I'm sorry. I couldn't get through. I'm sorry.

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Wait, what?

by Robot Chickens, Friday, May 22, 2020, 15:01 (7 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

I gotta say, I find it somewhat offensive that your response to me disagreeing with you is that maybe I should try a fresh perspective.

As though I haven't stayed out of the discussion entirely for more than a week, specifically because I didn't want to go off half-cocked.

This is my opinion. It's a considered opinion. I'm totally good with you disagreeing with it, but I'm not good at all with you telling me to back up and think about it before jumping in.


So... you think I'm trying to insult you? Man. I'm done with this back and forth. You're in too deep Wu. And... I'm sorry. I couldn't get through. I'm sorry.

I like you Insane, but you are aware of how condescending this sounds right? I'm hoping you hadn't considered that, but damn.

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Wait, what?

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Friday, May 22, 2020, 15:57 (7 days ago) @ Robot Chickens

I like you Insane, but you are aware of how condescending this sounds right? I'm hoping you hadn't considered that, but damn.

!? It doesn't, nor is is intended, to be that way at ALL! Once again, thank you for your honest input. I still have so much work to do in practice.

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Wait, what?

by Robot Chickens, Friday, May 22, 2020, 17:18 (7 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

I like you Insane, but you are aware of how condescending this sounds right? I'm hoping you hadn't considered that, but damn.


!? It doesn't, nor is is intended, to be that way at ALL! Once again, thank you for your honest input. I still have so much work to do in practice.

I was hoping that was the case. If it will help, here's a breakdown.

So... you think I'm trying to insult you? Man. I'm done with this back and forth.

It comes across as if you're accusing Claude of being too entrenched in his arguments to have a rational perspective. This is after he just told you that he waited to weigh in on this because he wanted to have a clear head.

You're in too deep Wu. And... I'm sorry. I couldn't get through. I'm sorry.

This was probably intended genuinely, but when you say it in context, it sounds like you just couldn't break through Claude's entrenched position. It actually comes out as if you've "found the correct perspective" and are trying to break through and share your light with a person clouded in the fog. I know you never said those words, but that is the sense of it when you've just told him he's in too deep.

Yeah, I filled out a lot from those couple sentences, but that was the immediate feeling that came to mind when I read them. It was frankly pretty uncharacteristic of you.

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Thank you.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Friday, May 22, 2020, 21:51 (7 days ago) @ Robot Chickens

I was going to message you on live, but then I said... I should check, and here we are. This is my last post of the evening, as its getting far too late, with mistakes and lessons to be learned. As you may imagine, this has been a very trying evening. A good evening, with much to learn and reflect from, but trying all the same. I did not step away. I stayed put until I had no more to say, provided there was anyone there truly willing to listen. Some responses have genuinely surprised me, as I've been posting here for years. I suppose in result I presumed too much benefit of the doubt.

!? It doesn't, nor is is intended, to be that way at ALL! Once again, thank you for your honest input. I still have so much work to do in practice.


I was hoping that was the case. If it will help, here's a breakdown.

So... you think I'm trying to insult you? Man. I'm done with this back and forth.


It comes across as if you're accusing Claude of being too entrenched in his arguments to have a rational perspective. This is after he just told you that he waited to weigh in on this because he wanted to have a clear head.

It sure didn't read that way to me in the moment. It left me aghast. Hence.

You're in too deep Wu. And... I'm sorry. I couldn't get through. I'm sorry.


This was probably intended genuinely, but when you say it in context, it sounds like you just couldn't break through Claude's entrenched position. It actually comes out as if you've "found the correct perspective" and are trying to break through and share your light with a person clouded in the fog. I know you never said those words, but that is the sense of it when you've just told him he's in too deep.

Yeah, I filled out a lot from those couple sentences, but that was the immediate feeling that came to mind when I read them. It was frankly pretty uncharacteristic of you.

You are correct. I meant the letter of the words, genuinely. I'm still sad about it. Even now looking over it... I don't know what else to say. IT SUCKS. I hate it. I even tried threatening my Brain with a Q-tip - NOTHING WORKED! Eh, such is life.

We don't play much, but your actions have been very kind. It's been, unfortunately, very refreshing. Thank you for your caring bluntness, Robot Chickens. Be well. ^_^

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Thank you.

by Robot Chickens, Friday, May 22, 2020, 23:31 (7 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

I genuinely appreciate you. You have a an interesting mind and I think you add a lot to this place. Don't get too beat up over stuff. Chin up.

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THAB - More Good Ideas Addition

by bluerunner @, Music City, Friday, May 22, 2020, 13:33 (7 days ago) @ Claude Errera

You could make people focus on other perks SIMPLY BY MAKING ALL RELOADING FASTER, NOT SLOWER. Yes, level it out - ON THE UPPER SIDE. Make the perk irrelevant because it doesn't change my gameplay, but don't do it in a way that makes me feel like a wet noodle.

In short: make me feel powerful. I'll play more.

When I roll with a hand cannon, I want to feel like Jerry Miculek. With the changes they have made with PvE damage, this is what it's like trying to kill a dreg with one.

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THAB - More Good Ideas Addition

by cheapLEY @, Friday, May 22, 2020, 13:51 (7 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

I’m with you. I think those changes are good. Those changes on the back of taking guns away sucks. Just nerf those perks and let us keep our guns. I know that will effectively be the same thing for a lot of guns and a lot of people. I’d rather see them fix problem weapons and perks than just blanket making things obsolete after a set amount of time.

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Regarding reload perks

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Friday, May 22, 2020, 14:37 (7 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

It’s true that reload perks are generally more desirable than many other perks. But the problem with taking a dispassionate, birds eye view of the perk pool and saying “let’s just slow down the bonus effects of all reload perks” is that it doesn’t take “feel” into account. Reload perks have one of the most noticeable impacts on the feel of a gun out of all the perks in the game. And for most players, there’s a threshold that a reload speed can hit where it just becomes too long for a player to want to use the gun. That threshold will certainly vary from player to player, gun to gun, but at a certain point it doesn’t matter what other perks a weapon has; if the reload is too slow, in just not going to use that gun. And many guns in D2 are already in that state, unless they have some kind of reload perk.

In other words, reload perks are required to make many D2 weapons viable, because their base reload speeds are too slow. Reduce the effectiveness of those reload perks, and all Bungie has done is shrunk the pool of weapons that I will ever use.

As has become a running theme of mine over the past year or so, this looks like yet another example of Bungie making design choices based on data, rather than feel or fun. Sometimes, a certain perk/weapon/ability being used more than all the others is evidence that they got that perk/weapon/ability RIGHT, not that it is too good and needs to be reigned in.

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Regarding reload perks

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, May 22, 2020, 14:45 (7 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

There's too many gun types and perk combos. You could make every weapon in Halo feel 'right' because there were like 8 of them. To do so with the weapon sandbox like Destiny is just impossible. Some of the combos are just going to feel off, some will feel right, and people will gravitate towards those.

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Regarding reload perks

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Friday, May 22, 2020, 15:38 (7 days ago) @ Cody Miller

There's too many gun types and perk combos. You could make every weapon in Halo feel 'right' because there were like 8 of them. To do so with the weapon sandbox like Destiny is just impossible. Some of the combos are just going to feel off, some will feel right, and people will gravitate towards those.

It's just that Bungie's own design decisions seem to take the studio by surprise. They release a bunch of weapons over the course of the year, the majority of which are mediocre or lifeless and forgettable. But the really good/unique/fun weapons rise to the top, drive excitement, and players chase them. Which makes perfect sense, right? Some guns need to be a little better than others in order to feel special. But then Bungie looks at their data and says "look at that... people are using weapons A, B, and C more than weapons X, Y, and Z... I guess we'd better nerf A, B and C!".

Which all just makes me think that there's less intention going into the weapon curves that we might assume. Maybe Bungie doesn't actually know which weapons are better than others when they make them. Maybe they think all their guns are great, and thus are surprises when the community gravitates to certain weapons more than others?

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Regarding reload perks

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, May 22, 2020, 16:26 (7 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Clearly they should just go OG Doom style where there is no reloading at all and you can fire continuously until you're out.

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Arc Chainsaw FTW \m/

by Morpheus @, High Charity, Saturday, May 23, 2020, 18:29 (6 days ago) @ Cody Miller

- No text -

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Regarding reload perks

by Vortech @, A Fourth Wheel, Monday, May 25, 2020, 13:34 (4 days ago) @ Cody Miller

There's too many gun types and perk combos. You could make every weapon in Halo feel 'right' because there were like 8 of them. To do so with the weapon sandbox like Destiny is just impossible.

So maybe they should shorten the long tail on existing weapons and shrink the loot pool for new weapons?

I see what you did there...

by Claude Errera @, Monday, May 25, 2020, 15:02 (4 days ago) @ Vortech

- No text -

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Regarding reload perks

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, May 25, 2020, 16:24 (4 days ago) @ Vortech

There's too many gun types and perk combos. You could make every weapon in Halo feel 'right' because there were like 8 of them. To do so with the weapon sandbox like Destiny is just impossible.


So maybe they should shorten the long tail on existing weapons and shrink the loot pool for new weapons?

Even that isn't enough honestly. Halo has one pistol. One Sword. One Battle Rifle. Even after sunsetting there will still be a plethora of weapons with sub archetypes and various perk combos.

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Regarding reload perks

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Friday, May 22, 2020, 15:55 (7 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

You've been posting alot these last few weeks, and I would like to say, I've been very impressed by your capacity to elucidate. To explain or clarify. Your capacity to do so is a refreshing light, and is honestly something I aspire to. Your posts as of late have been some of the best we have at DBO. SO thank you.

...now to the topic...

It’s true that reload perks are generally more desirable than many other perks. But the problem with taking a dispassionate, birds eye view of the perk pool and saying “let’s just slow down the bonus effects of all reload perks” is that it doesn’t take “feel” into account. Reload perks have one of the most noticeable impacts on the feel of a gun out of all the perks in the game. And for most players, there’s a threshold that a reload speed can hit where it just becomes too long for a player to want to use the gun. That threshold will certainly vary from player to player, gun to gun, but at a certain point it doesn’t matter what other perks a weapon has; if the reload is too slow, in just not going to use that gun. And many guns in D2 are already in that state, unless they have some kind of reload perk.

So the issue is the how the base reload feels without a perk to push it up? If perk feels SO GOOD that it's a MUST, then that is broken. Is the issue than with the base archetype? I'm not sure we can test that.

I concede for the moment. I don't know the answer. I don't know what answer to give.

In other words, reload perks are required to make many D2 weapons viable, because their base reload speeds are too slow. Reduce the effectiveness of those reload perks, and all Bungie has done is shrunk the pool of weapons that I will ever use.

As has become a running theme of mine over the past year or so, this looks like yet another example of Bungie making design choices based on data, rather than feel or fun. Sometimes, a certain perk/weapon/ability being used more than all the others is evidence that they got that perk/weapon/ability RIGHT, not that it is too good and needs to be reigned in.

As mentioned, perks alone should not be making weapons viable. That is broken. For Data Vs Fun though... well, one is arguably universal, and one is... per person, yes? Why the game feels as it does is not something I've heavily looked into, so forgive me as I work to extrapolate.

Say, your job is to balance out all this kit; what are you going to go on? What can you prove to your boss? I guess the question I'M asking is, can fun be codified? Can "feel" be codified? I don't know the answer to that either. I suppose so, I mean look videogames. Something is going right. Are there folks who don't like how, say, Rose feels to use? I don't know, but I guess you'll be able to see by how much in the data. Which, taking that line of thought... would be rather comforting to work with. It might not be the right way to do it, but it's definitely something tactile that can be far more easy measured.

I don't disagree on your read, but I'm not sure what I would give to Bungie as an alternative, provided they listen at all.

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Regarding reload perks

by cheapLEY @, Friday, May 22, 2020, 15:58 (7 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

I don’t know if “fun” can be quantified. But Bungie, as a whole, used to know it when they saw it. I’m not sure they do anymore.

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It all really has been kicked into a sprial hasn't it.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Friday, May 22, 2020, 16:00 (7 days ago) @ cheapLEY

- No text -

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Regarding reload perks

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Friday, May 22, 2020, 17:46 (7 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

You've been posting alot these last few weeks, and I would like to say, I've been very impressed by your capacity to elucidate. To explain or clarify. Your capacity to do so is a refreshing light, and is honestly something I aspire to. Your posts as of late have been some of the best we have at DBO. SO thank you.

Awe, shucks. Thank you :)


...now to the topic...

It’s true that reload perks are generally more desirable than many other perks. But the problem with taking a dispassionate, birds eye view of the perk pool and saying “let’s just slow down the bonus effects of all reload perks” is that it doesn’t take “feel” into account. Reload perks have one of the most noticeable impacts on the feel of a gun out of all the perks in the game. And for most players, there’s a threshold that a reload speed can hit where it just becomes too long for a player to want to use the gun. That threshold will certainly vary from player to player, gun to gun, but at a certain point it doesn’t matter what other perks a weapon has; if the reload is too slow, in just not going to use that gun. And many guns in D2 are already in that state, unless they have some kind of reload perk.


So the issue is the how the base reload feels without a perk to push it up? If perk feels SO GOOD that it's a MUST, then that is broken. Is the issue than with the base archetype? I'm not sure we can test that.

I concede for the moment. I don't know the answer. I don't know what answer to give.

I'm not sure I could give a flat, 1-size-fits-all answer either. But I do feel that Destiny right now is absolutely missing that person on the sandbox team who has the guts and instincts to say "this feels great, lets do it. This feels like crap, lets adjust it." Like, who on the team could possibly have played with the new Crit damage system that was implemented in Shadowkeep and said "yes, this feels better". And yes, I know a lot of this stuff is fuzzy and subjective, but some of it really isn't that complicated.

In other words, reload perks are required to make many D2 weapons viable, because their base reload speeds are too slow. Reduce the effectiveness of those reload perks, and all Bungie has done is shrunk the pool of weapons that I will ever use.

As has become a running theme of mine over the past year or so, this looks like yet another example of Bungie making design choices based on data, rather than feel or fun. Sometimes, a certain perk/weapon/ability being used more than all the others is evidence that they got that perk/weapon/ability RIGHT, not that it is too good and needs to be reigned in.


As mentioned, perks alone should not be making weapons viable. That is broken. For Data Vs Fun though... well, one is arguably universal, and one is... per person, yes? Why the game feels as it does is not something I've heavily looked into, so forgive me as I work to extrapolate.

Say, your job is to balance out all this kit; what are you going to go on? What can you prove to your boss? I guess the question I'M asking is, can fun be codified? Can "feel" be codified? I don't know the answer to that either. I suppose so, I mean look videogames. Something is going right. Are there folks who don't like how, say, Rose feels to use? I don't know, but I guess you'll be able to see by how much in the data. Which, taking that line of thought... would be rather comforting to work with. It might not be the right way to do it, but it's definitely something tactile that can be far more easy measured.

I don't disagree on your read, but I'm not sure what I would give to Bungie as an alternative, provided they listen at all.

So, there's a story I heard about the US Air Force which I think applies nicely here. I have absolutely no idea if this story is true or not (perhaps a fellow DBOer can confirm/correct me here), but even if the story is completely made up, I think it illustrates a point quite well.

It goes like this:

At some point in the 80s, the air force was testing some new fighter planes that featured brand new, state of the art cockpit designs. These cockpits were a fare bit more complicated than previous models, so the designers were going to great lengths to make sure that all the controls were optimally placed for ease of use and comfort. They did a bunch of detailed research on average measurements and proportions of their pilot force, and generated a very detailed model of the average pilot's build, including arm and leg length, finger length and reach, joint flexibility and range of motion, etc. And they arranged their cockpit layout around these measurements.

But during initial live testing, something strange happened. Experienced test pilots weren't performing as well as usual. Mistakes were happening, and even a couple fatal accidents. After collecting as much test data as they could, including feedback from the test pilots, they soon discovered the severe mistake they made. They had designed these cockpits to perfectly fit the "average" pilot. But the "average" pilot doesn't actually exist. There was no single pilot in their test program who had the exact proportions of their generated "average" pilot. So one test pilot might have found the front panel was beautifully laid out for their arm length, but their knees were pressed into the housing above their legs. Another pilot's legs would fit well, but they struggled to reach certain controls on the dash. The solution was to make the cockpits more adjustable, so that each individual pilot could position themselves in the way that felt best for them.

Back to Destiny.

At a high level, Bungie did a great job of creating a weapon sandbox that would offer a wide range of options for players. Some people like a slower firing, harder hitting hand cannon, while others prefer a hand cannon that is faster and snappier. No problem, Bungie created both extremes with a couple archetypes in between. Rather than finding out what the "average" player wants, Bungie provided choice, with well thought-out tradeoffs as you go across the range. Slower-firing HCs had longer range and hit harder, but generally had smaller clips and took longer to reload. That's cool, because they're designed for players who prefer to keep their distance. As the RPMs increase, the damage and range got slightly lower, with clip sizes increasing and reload speeds getting faster. It all made sense. But then, somewhere along the road, Bungie's design brain fell out the window, and they started making design choices based on usage numbers instead of thinking about what they were actually doing.

So now, we have 4 Hand Cannon Archetypes: 110s, 140s, 150s, and 180s. They all have the same range (the difference between a minimum range 180 and a max range 110 is something like 2-3 meters... barely worth mentioning). And while they still have different damage values, the differences often aren't meaningful. Many red-bar enemies will be left with a sliver of health after receiving a crit hit from any hand-cannon. That sliver of health may be a slightly different size depending on the HC archetype, but it's still a 2-shot kill either way. Then there's the odd state of most 180 HCs, which do the least damage, but usually have small clips and really slow reloads. It just doesn't fit the playstyle which 180s seemed to be designed for.

Things get even more confusing in the Crucible. 150 and 140 hand cannons are practically identical in terms of effectiveness; same range, same optimal shots to kill (3 crits), similar average reload speeds. BUT, 150s fire faster, have less recoil, and better average handling. So why would anyone ever use a 140 in the crucible, aside from emotional preferences (aesthetics and such). There is no playstyle or situation where 140s are as good as 150s. And the other 2 archetypes can't really compete either. But with Bungie's current approach to sandbox tuning, they'll just say something like "150 hand cannons are over represented in the crucible, so we're going to increase their recoil to create a more interesting choice* for the player when choosing a hand cannon". It's the Luna's Howl situation over and over again. Luna's Howl and Not Forgotten were the only 2 good PvP hand cannons on console, so they were over represented in usage, so bungie gutted them. Meanwhile over on PC where hand cannons worked well, LH and NF weren't even in the top 5.


*That's a fun little bit of code language that Bungie likes to use. Any time they describe something as "interesting" or "thoughtful", they're saying "we're going to make these 2 things suck in opposite ways, so there's no clear choice for the player".

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Regarding reload perks

by Vortech @, A Fourth Wheel, Monday, May 25, 2020, 13:48 (4 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Citations are lacking, but This ties it to a specific name, which lends it some shine of reliability.

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Cool, thanks!

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, May 25, 2020, 19:40 (4 days ago) @ Vortech

Citations are lacking, but This ties it to a specific name, which lends it some shine of reliability.

So I got the story more less right, I was just wildly off on the date.

Appreciate you looking this up!

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THAB - More Good Ideas Addition

by Morpheus @, High Charity, Tuesday, May 26, 2020, 10:36 (3 days ago) @ bluerunner

Community feedback has been that Revoker and Beloved dominate, and looking at analytics they account for 86% of Sniper Rifle usage in the Crucible – and if we include other low-zoom Sniper Rifles, the number gets even higher.

Wow. Took you four months to figure that out, huh Bungo.

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