On Levels (Destiny)
by Cody Miller 
, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, July 25, 2014, 15:41 (3568 days ago)
The initial purpose of a leveling system at all was to simulate the progression and learning of skills in games that were otherwise simple. Starting with D&D, you weren't actually learning how to fight or get better with swords or becoming more fluent in whatever language your character spoke. In terms of narrative however, the hero has to grow stronger and more skilled, and so a level progression system is meant to simulate this, since the game systems don't lend themselves to such mastery.
Many early video games likewise had simple systems that were easily mastered. Thus, leveling systems. However there are plenty of games and genres that DO rely on the player's actual mastery of the skills involved to play the game. It's no coincidence that these types of games almost universally lacked level systems. There was no need; the player himself would grow more powerful as he learned the game.
See where this is going? FPS is a pretty complex genre, and with Destiny being new, the world, mechanics, and interacting systems could have been complex and meaningful to master. A leveling system is meant to simulate something that Destiny could have actually had. You're getting the simulation, which precludes the real!
But what about Deus Ex? I always talk about that game, and it allows you to level up abilities. Again, this was done as simulation. You aren't actually asked to pick locks, nor are you asked to actually hack. Thus, the abstracted leveling system for these types of skills understandable, and was rolled into the larger fabric of the game in a really meaningful way, by allowing you to steer your character and thus your experience, all without grinding.
It's astounding that nobody on the project realized this colossal misstep.
On Levels
But leveling up in Destiny allows you to increase defense stats, buy/use new weapons and gear, and unlock new abilities, all of which are tangible rewards.
On Levels
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, July 25, 2014, 15:51 (3568 days ago) @ car15
But leveling up in Destiny allows you to increase defense stats, buy/use new weapons and gear, and unlock new abilities, all of which are tangible rewards.
Which is a larger problem. Rather than guns and armor being viewed as a component of the game system to be explored and mastered, loot is treated as a reward unto itself.
On Levels
How complicated can you make the guns and armor, that they require much mastery other than the FPS staples of aim and reflexes.
All weapons in an FPS function in a mechanically near-identical way - aim and shoot (from an input standpoint, obviously weapons function differently within the game, but you'd be hard-pressed to convince me that the differences between a sniper and a shotgun are complex to master)
On Levels
by SonofMacPhisto , Friday, July 25, 2014, 18:51 (3568 days ago) @ someotherguy
edited by SonofMacPhisto, Friday, July 25, 2014, 18:54
How complicated can you make the guns and armor, that they require much mastery other than the FPS staples of aim and reflexes.
All weapons in an FPS function in a mechanically near-identical way - aim and shoot (from an input standpoint, obviously weapons function differently within the game, but you'd be hard-pressed to convince me that the differences between a sniper and a shotgun are complex to master)
Maybe get more nuanced in what the guns do? In Titanfall, weapons are balanced based on what you're shooting. Take two examples from basically opposite ends of the spectrum: the Smart Pistol locks onto the AI grunts faster (utterly decimating them) than human controlled pilots, and does average damage when riding a Titan. The LMG is pretty good against AI grunts and pilots, but an absolute monster when riding Titans.
Now, you are still aiming and shooting, but the choice of weapon means an entirely different skillset to master (Mirror's Edge parkour vs. sneaky/tactical jumping on giant robots) and a dramtically different role on the battlefield.
This weapon decision also decides everything else about the loadout, perks, and burn cards you bring with you. It's core to the art of the game, not just an extra thing tacked on with no thought.
On Levels
I certainly wouldn't complain about more nuanced weapons, but as RaichuKFM put it (so much better than me I might add), understanding the nuance of your weapon is a learned skill based on the player's knowledge rather than their ability,, and not something affected by the presence or absence of Nova Bomb, for example.
I certainly wouldn't complain about more nuanced weapons, but as RaichuKFM put it (so much better than me I might add), understanding the nuance of your weapon is a learned skill based on the player's knowledge rather than their ability,, and not something affected by the presence or absence of Nova Bomb, for example.
I'd like combinations of both knowledge and ability. I know the Smart Pistol locks onto explosives and I know physics, but I have the skill to bounce it off a wall while falling and shoot it in time to explode a dudes face.
On Levels
That would also be nice, but unless the ability to ricochet shots is limited by your level progression, I don't see how including a levelling system makes any difference.
Unless the suggestion is that the level upgrades are included instead of that kind of weapon? In which case I agree with you, but we'd never actually know for sure without someone coming out and saying it.
That would also be nice, but unless the ability to ricochet shots is limited by your level progression, I don't see how including a levelling system makes any difference.
Unless the suggestion is that the level upgrades are included instead of that kind of weapon? In which case I agree with you, but we'd never actually know for sure without someone coming out and saying it.
I think it's a matter of having an interesting game to master at base, and then adding more toys through a progression system (which Titanfall does) with the goal of about teaching you more strategies, not throwing everything at you at once, and layering in tactical complexity gradually.
Think of the movement, shooting, and aiming as all the goddamn conditioning you have to do for football (soccer), and the weapons, perks, and skills as the plays you learn to make your training manifest on the field.
On Levels
Essentially - we should get to have the best of both? I cant disagree with that :)
I just dont see the inclusion of unlocksble skills as diminishing the importance of learned ones, which is the impression I got from the thread starter (with the exception of Supers, which I agree require an absolute minimum of skill atm).
Edited because I goofed and put the wrong thing in the subject field.
Essentially - we should get to have the best of both? I cant disagree with that :)
I just dont see the inclusion of unlocksble skills as diminishing the importance of learned ones, which is the impression I got from the thread starter (with the exception of Supers, which I agree require an absolute minimum of skill atm).
Edited because I goofed and put the wrong thing in the subject field.
It takes some pretty creative thinking and talented execution to get the best of both worlds. Ergo, yes, should be the goal!
I agree with you regarding unlockable skills, if we mean skills that are new toys to play with that increase complexity, or are structured in a way to encourage you learning the game and getting better at things that take skill (like the jumping, shooting, aiming, etc).
I'll hopefully be hours deep in Destiny this time tomorrow, so I'll post any worthwhile thoughts for sure!
I just dont see the inclusion of unlocksble skills as diminishing the importance of learned ones, which is the impression I got from the thread starter (with the exception of Supers, which I agree require an absolute minimum of skill atm).
To get A kill? No, they don't take that much effort.
To use them to their full potential? That'll take more work.
e.g. the Hunter's Golden Gun has an upgrade (that you have to sacrifice something else for) that allows it to over-penetrate and damage/kill multiple enemies. Lining those shots up isn't easy at the pace enemies shuffle around in this game.
On Levels
Ah, apologies. You're right, I was referring to just their most basic state as an instakill.
Obviously using them as something more than a "You go squish now" button takes a bit more forethought.
Saw a warlock "waste" his on the ground earlier, only to get totally ruined by the area affect field it left in its wake because I wasnt paying full attention. Wasn't even mad, I was just happy to see it being used in an interesting way.
Destiny has loads of great moments like that...
by RC 
, UK, Saturday, July 26, 2014, 09:11 (3568 days ago) @ someotherguy
Ah, apologies. You're right, I was referring to just their most basic state as an instakill.
Obviously using them as something more than a "You go squish now" button takes a bit more forethought.
Saw a warlock "waste" his on the ground earlier, only to get totally ruined by the area affect field it left in its wake because I wasnt paying full attention. Wasn't even mad, I was just happy to see it being used in an interesting way.
I thought I had wasted my Swarm grenade during a run on Last Array when I miss-aimed the throw. The only enemy left of the wave was one of those big Hive dudes with the swords. Since he was already chasing me, I wondered if he was dumb enough to chase me through the cloud of Swarm Grenades.
He was.
Grenade well spent. :)
Side note
When you say riding a Titan do you mean piloting one or literally riding one piloted by someone else?
If the latter, the LMG is actually stronger when you're riding a Titan? As in more damaging? Or just contextually more useful?
When you say riding a Titan do you mean piloting one or literally riding one piloted by someone else?
Literally riding one piloted by an enemy, it's called a "Rodeo" attack. Your pilot rips a hatch off and shoots directly into the Titan's systems, bypassing the shield.
You can also ride friendly ones. No friendly fire though. ;)
If the latter, the LMG is actually stronger when you're riding a Titan? As in more damaging? Or just contextually more useful?
Yes, the LMG gets a massive damage bonus during a Rodeo attack. There's an attachment called the Slammer that jacks it up even further. You can murder the strongest Titan (Ogre) in mere seconds. Interesting sidenote too is that the LMG is the only weapon without a suppressor, so you always show up on the mini-map while firing.
Sidenote with the Smart Pistol, when firing at a human controlled pilot, it takes a few seconds to lock-on for the instant kill. If you decide to manually fire, you do less damage hip-firing (it was actually nerfed in the first patch). That penalty is removed if you aim down the sights CoD style.
Basically trying to show the nuance Respawn put into some of these weapons.
Side note
H, I thought you meant riding a friendly one and attacking ground soldiers with it. Was very confused.
That makes much more sense though. Cheers for explaining.
H, I thought you meant riding a friendly one and attacking ground soldiers with it. Was very confused.
That makes much more sense though. Cheers for explaining.
Happy to! Love the game. :)
On Levels
by RaichuKFM , Northeastern Ohio, Friday, July 25, 2014, 18:23 (3568 days ago) @ Cody Miller
edited by RaichuKFM, Friday, July 25, 2014, 18:27
Uhh... I fail to see how your argument works. Leveling up doesn't simulate improving the learnable skills of the FPS (aiming, dodging, tactics, etcetera). It offers you new abilities and equipment, which impact how you use your learnable skills, which is on principle exactly the same as Dungeons & Dragons. Because the learnable skills in Dungeons & Dragons are strategy, tactics, improvisation, etcetera; much like Destiny's learnable facets, these are not entirely level dependent, but depending on your equipment and abilities you can make use of them differently. And if you oppose using an experience system to gradually allow access to better gear, that's fine, but that doesn't mean it's a bad move to implement such a system. It is a more complex issue when considering PvP, but with the damage equalizing in most of those modes it isn't an overly large one, at least from what I've experienced in the Beta.
I don't mean to be rude, here, but all the times I've seen you bring up Dungeons & Dragons in an argument it's fallen flat to me, because of my own experience with the game. Just thought it would be worth mentioning.
EDIT: Oh yeah, I meant to explicitly bring up that what makes the "learnable" abilities different is that the character has the leveled abilities, whereas the player has the learnable ones.
FPS or RPG?
![[image]](http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/538/731/0fc.gif)
That's all I have to say on that.
On Levels *GIF*
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, July 25, 2014, 22:57 (3568 days ago) @ RC
FPS or RPG?
That's all I have to say on that.
And that game is Deus Ex, and it's a masterpiece. But Destiny uses the system in completely lame and backwards way, whereas Deus Ex does it absolutely right.
On Levels *GIF*
by Numinar , Saturday, July 26, 2014, 12:09 (3568 days ago) @ Cody Miller
FPS or RPG?
That's all I have to say on that.
And that game is Deus Ex, and it's a masterpiece. But Destiny uses the system in completely lame and backwards way, whereas Deus Ex does it absolutely right.
But the shooting mechanics were not fun in DE! It is a masterpiece though.
In Destiny, shooting is fun. Maybe not as fun as Halo, but the battle of movement/tactics is about the same. This is what makes it different to other FPS RPG's that have preceded it in my eyes. It's not much of a difference, but there is a market for this kind of game.
It's a loot game though, there is no escaping it. I seriously doubt the consequences of that were overlooked by an incompetent Bungie like you suggest, it has been done with full awareness of the pitfalls and advantages involved. I can imagine there are some big Halo fans that are not into this, some of who will be swayed by this title and some who will never get into it. And that is fine. I don't think they have been misled though. The game isn't called Halo 5/Marathon 4.
I have similar concerns about not having those highly tuned Heroic/Legendary/Skull modified Halo levels to master with the same tools everyone else has. But I do enjoy the progression system. If you break it down it might be shallow, but so is every game. If the basic foundation of this title rubs you the wrong way, maybe you should cancel your preorder? (If you have one) I know I skipped out on ONI. Don't worry, nobody will think less of you. Bungie will have you back next time they cook a meal to your specific tastes.
On Levels *GIF*
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, July 26, 2014, 20:50 (3567 days ago) @ Numinar
I know I skipped out on ONI.
If you can get it on the Mac or PC, it wasn't terrible, but it had tons of flaws. I kind of loved it though.