I think moving forward, there should be no legendary elemental primaries. I was thinking about how elemental primaries had an effect on the game, and while I might be in the minority here, I don't think it's positive.

I think having an elemental primary really pushes out a lot of difficulty and strategy. If you play through the game from the start, you'll see that special weapon management is far more important than it is now. Captains, Wizards, and shielded Cabal can be tricky. Wizards especially have a tough shield, but low health. So the key is to get their shields down quickly, then finish them off. This is where having a solar fusion rifle absolutely shined. With elemental primaries though, you've got something like Vision of Confluence that just eats wizards up, and since it has so much ammo you can just use it the whole time. Same thing with Fatebringer on captains.

In particular this pushes out specials. I use snipers pretty much only for bosses, and in special circumstances like the boomers in Crota's End, or the distant Hydras on Winter's Run (all of those situations are element agnostic). Fusion Rifles I rarely if ever use in PvE. Shotguns are so good, you really don't need to match elements to be successful.

Without elemental primaries, the special and heavy slots would be much more interesting I think, especially on nightfalls where you have multiple shield types to deal with.

Speaking of nightfalls, with an elemental primary, nightfall is and easy affair. Without one, it's rather hard. Again, with no elemental primaries, I feel like choice of special and heavy would be a bit more complex, given they would be your only burn source. Try doing this week's nightfall without a solar primary, and you'll have a tough time! Didn't Bungie always say nightfalls were supposed to be some of the hardest challenges?

If there are elemental primaries in TTK, I think they should be exotic. At least then, the substantially beneficial perk of elemental damage comes at the cost of another exotic. The current elemental primaries are great weapons even if they didn't have the element. And because they are legendary, I often don't see a huge benefit to picking a primary exotic in PvE.

In my opinion, the game would be much more interesting if year one elemental primaries were phased out, and replaced with nothing.

I mostly agree. Maybe an alternate solution would be to have more elemental primaries, so that the focus isn't just on a small subset of them. And then have more diversity in enemy shield types. Maybe remove/reduce the extra damage during burn modifiers for primary weapons.

I mostly agree. Maybe an alternate solution would be to have more elemental primaries, so that the focus isn't just on a small subset of them. And then have more diversity in enemy shield types. Maybe remove/reduce the extra damage during burn modifiers for primary weapons.

Primary weapons, being ubiquitous and used often due to high reserve ammo, are I think just a bad choice to have elemental damage with. If you can just deal elemental damage all the time, willy nilly, it doesn't mean anything. That should be a special case, and correspondingly only available on specials, heavies, or exotic primaries.

You have to balance that stuff with rewards. I wouldn't use Fatebringer if it was not arc (I have some great other guns I like). I have a Time on Target better than Oversoul Edict. Vision of Confluence is still top, but there's not a single Crota gun I'd be hankering for.

To make up for the lack of elements they would have to have godly rolls on raid guns to entice people to play regularly, and if Bingle does one thing well, it's communicate how little they want us to have really good rolls. So, elemental guns are a great way to make guns super desirable but still balance them in game, and in PVP, where elements mean nothing, so people aren't using their amazing raid guns.

I think the elements are a necessary evil.

I mostly agree. Maybe an alternate solution would be to have more elemental primaries, so that the focus isn't just on a small subset of them. And then have more diversity in enemy shield types. Maybe remove/reduce the extra damage during burn modifiers for primary weapons.

Primary weapons, being ubiquitous and used often due to high reserve ammo, are I think just a bad choice to have elemental damage with. If you can just deal elemental damage all the time, willy nilly, it doesn't mean anything. That should be a special case, and correspondingly only available on specials, heavies, or exotic primaries.

Arc damage Hard Light 2015!

Hawkmoon also has a blue light, so Arc Hawkmoon!

Solar Last Word!

Void Thorn!

Solar Mythoclast! Oh wait...

Solar No Land Beyond!

Void Universal Remote!

Primary weapons, being ubiquitous and used often due to high reserve ammo, are I think just a bad choice to have elemental damage with. If you can just deal elemental damage all the time, willy nilly, it doesn't mean anything.

Taking the elemental damage off of primaries is an easy fix, but wouldn't it be better for the game if you weren't removing features? Different solutions to a problem, I guess.

Primary weapons, being ubiquitous and used often due to high reserve ammo, are I think just a bad choice to have elemental damage with. If you can just deal elemental damage all the time, willy nilly, it doesn't mean anything.

Taking the elemental damage off of primaries is an easy fix, but wouldn't it be better for the game if you weren't removing features? Different solutions to a problem, I guess.

In an evolving game, some features have to be cut if they have a negative effect on the game, or if you plan to improve them later.

Dying Light removed one of my favorite features of Dead Island, the Analog melee. It was a fan-favorite feature that unfortunately had to be sacrificed because of the parkour.

Halo 5 removed one of my favorite features of previous Halos, the split-screen. It was a fan-favorite feature that unfortunately had to be sacrificed because of the power of the Xbox One.

Sometimes, features are just removed after launch because they don't work well with what you want to do with the game, or because you want to change the way players approach encounters (Ice Breaker, Gjallarhorn, and Loot Cave, anyone?):

Early on, Warframe had grenades and a charge-up melee. Both were removed, and later a grenade-based character was added, along with melee combos (stances), turning generic abilities into more distinct, varied, and special ones.

Halo 5 removed one of my favorite features of previous Halos, the split-screen. It was a fan-favorite feature that unfortunately had to be sacrificed because of the power of the Xbox One.

It's less the power of the XBox One (from what I've read) and more a scale of the gameplay they're going for with a smooth 60fps. I basically agree with Jaime Griesemer's comment.

As transcribed: I do understand why the 343 guys [had to cut splitscreen], I mean, they're facing all the exact same problems [we did], and I can absolutely--- and they have a better alternative which is to just play it over Live. So I can absolutely see why they made that call.

You have to balance that stuff with rewards. I wouldn't use Fatebringer if it was not arc (I have some great other guns I like). I have a Time on Target better than Oversoul Edict. Vision of Confluence is still top, but there's not a single Crota gun I'd be hankering for.

To make up for the lack of elements they would have to have godly rolls on raid guns to entice people to play regularly, and if Bingle does one thing well, it's communicate how little they want us to have really good rolls. So, elemental guns are a great way to make guns super desirable but still balance them in game, and in PVP, where elements mean nothing, so people aren't using their amazing raid guns.

I think the elements are a necessary evil.

Not necessarily. You have raid weapons with unique perks, like White Nail, Hive Disruptor, Dark Breaker, etc. Fatebringer would, without arc damage, still own because of firefly. Raid weapons can be treated like Mini exotics. An element is not the only thing that can make them desirable.

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Prison of Elders can dish out elemental primaries as well, but few people could ever tell. In the 5 times I beat Skolas, I received 1 elemental Fallen primary.

I, for one, would like a good reason to use something other than Fatebringer and Gjallarhorn.

:)

Prison of Elders can dish out elemental primaries as well, but few people could ever tell. In the 5 times I beat Skolas, I received 1 elemental Fallen primary.

Yeah, a solar Six Dreg Pride would be most excellent, but perhaps even rarer than a Hawkmoon :-p

Maybe we go back and do Skolas when we are level 40.

I think the elements are a necessary evil.

Not necessarily. You have raid weapons with unique perks, like White Nail, Hive Disruptor, etc. Fatebringer would, without arc damage, still own because of firefly. Raid weapons can be treated like Mini exotics. An element is not the only thing that can make them desirable.

I was right in the middle of typing a message with this very point and noticed you brought it up before posting it. Instead of elemental damage or crazy awesome rolls there should be perks that help with end game activities.

I might still use Fatebringer over TDYK because of Firefly, but I'd use TDYK in many more situations if it weren't for the Arc of Fatebringer. I currently prefer TDYK over Fatebringer (& even Hawkmoon) in PvP. There's just something about that gun that works for me.

I miss a little of the struggle/difficulty back when I was mostly using blue weapons & secondaries/heavies were the only thing with elemental damage. It certainly did make the game more interesting and those shielded enemies tougher.

I mean, why not?

Shielded enemies are few and far between, and it would allow players better customization by increasing the number of archetypes to choose from. It would provide a clear benefit to switching to new Year 2 Legendaries without artificially capping the damage of Year 1 weapons.

But, yeah... I kind of agree.

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On the one hand, I think you make some very good points. On the other hand, I think elemental primaries are loads of fun. They do change the nature of the nightfalls, but in an enjoyable way. You can die super fast, but you can also dish out insane damage. Without elemental primaries, the Nightfalls would be far more tedious, IMO. Dealing with hordes of bullet-sponge enemies who can kill you in 1 or 2 shots just isn't fun for me. Elemental primaries + burns creates a fun dynamic.

But you do raise a great point about Exotic primaries. We were discussing this in another thread last week. I have 15 unique legendary primaries with elemental damage, most of which have great base stats as well. There is virtually no reason for me to ever use an exotic primary in PvE, other than "just for fun". I think adding elemental damage to more of the exotic primaries would help even this out.

I've been using my Adept Messenger far more than Fatebringer lately... in large part because of the Solar damage ;)

On the one hand, I think you make some very good points. On the other hand, I think elemental primaries are loads of fun. They do change the nature of the nightfalls, but in an enjoyable way. You can die super fast, but you can also dish out insane damage. Without elemental primaries, the Nightfalls would be far more tedious, IMO. Dealing with hordes of bullet-sponge enemies who can kill you in 1 or 2 shots just isn't fun for me. Elemental primaries + burns creates a fun dynamic.

But you do raise a great point about Exotic primaries. We were discussing this in another thread last week. I have 15 unique legendary primaries with elemental damage, most of which have great base stats as well. There is virtually no reason for me to ever use an exotic primary in PvE, other than "just for fun". I think adding elemental damage to more of the exotic primaries would help even this out.

The only exotic primary I'd use on a semi-regular basis in PvE would by Mythoclast. And guess what? It's solar. Maybe MIDA as sword bearer during Crota's End.

On the one hand, I think you make some very good points. On the other hand, I think elemental primaries are loads of fun. They do change the nature of the nightfalls, but in an enjoyable way. You can die super fast, but you can also dish out insane damage. Without elemental primaries, the Nightfalls would be far more tedious, IMO. Dealing with hordes of bullet-sponge enemies who can kill you in 1 or 2 shots just isn't fun for me. Elemental primaries + burns creates a fun dynamic.

But you do raise a great point about Exotic primaries. We were discussing this in another thread last week. I have 15 unique legendary primaries with elemental damage, most of which have great base stats as well. There is virtually no reason for me to ever use an exotic primary in PvE, other than "just for fun". I think adding elemental damage to more of the exotic primaries would help even this out.

The only exotic primary I'd use on a semi-regular basis in PvE would by Mythoclast. And guess what? It's solar. Maybe MIDA as sword bearer during Crota's End.

If Thorn or TLW had Outlaw/Firefly, I'd use the hell out of them in PvE. I think you're over-exaggerating the importance of elemental damage, compared to what other attributes make guns desirable.

I have recently been getting more etheric light. After ascending all the things I knew I wanted, what was left? For me, a bunch of non-elemental primaries. They're just not as useful as Vision of Confluence, Fatebringer, or even Atheon's Epilogue on a void burn.

I'm not sure about a "solution" to this, though. I would much rather have these elemental primaries than not.

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Maybe, I dunno, don't use them?

If they make the game less challenging for -you- , why should -I- have to suffer?

Not everyone is swimming in them like you are, and I'm getting so tired of reminding you that.

You play all the time, I do not. I don't have fatebringer, and I just got VoC maybe 2 months ago and it's not leveled. My only crota primary is fang of ir yut.

So when I do a nightfall, I have this meta game where I decide if it's worth using my un ascended atheons epilogue on a void burn vs a maxed out mida. Sometimes it's nice feeling over powered, but usually I'm a fan of the "glass cannon " nature of burns and a primary makes it feel fair to me... If I have it lol

You should play more like korny, and switch your style up, make your own challenges instead of whining for bungie to make the game better for you, at my, and the masses expense.

I swear to god you drive me nuts. I guess you weren't really done with Destiny after all.

If Thorn or TLW had Outlaw/Firefly, I'd use the hell out of them in PvE. I think you're over-exaggerating the importance of elemental damage, compared to what other attributes make guns desirable.

Outlaw+Firefly is one of those magic combos for PvE, isn't it? I've got several scout rifles with outlaw+firefly, and they are some of the only primaries without elemental damage that I use on a regular basis.

But when the going gets tough (Nightfalls, 35 Prison of Elders) I go back to my elemental Raid or Trials primaries every single time.

If Thorn or TLW had Outlaw/Firefly, I'd use the hell out of them in PvE. I think you're over-exaggerating the importance of elemental damage, compared to what other attributes make guns desirable.

Outlaw+Firefly is one of those magic combos for PvE, isn't it? I've got several scout rifles with outlaw+firefly, and they are some of the only primaries without elemental damage that I use on a regular basis.

But when the going gets tough (Nightfalls, 35 Prison of Elders) I go back to my elemental Raid or Trials primaries every single time.

Oh, I agree. It's our nature to try to stack the odds in our favour when facing a difficult challenge- why shouldn't we? Against Skolas, Every little bit helps.

That's why I proposed making all primary legendaries/exotics have elemental damage as a counterpoint.

I don't think there is anything wrong with making a suggestion or observation based on your own personal experiences. Cody's opinion is not based on the fact that he has a bunch of elemental primaries... I do too, yet I feel differently than he does on this issue.

So I really liked this part of your post, it's a great point. High end players with most of the rewards play a different game than players without those rewards. It's why Gjallarhorn was so sought after, and can make a huge difference.

So when I do a nightfall, I have this meta game where I decide if it's worth using my un ascended atheons epilogue on a void burn vs a maxed out mida. Sometimes it's nice feeling over powered, but usually I'm a fan of the "glass cannon " nature of burns and a primary makes it feel fair to me... If I have it lol

You should play more like korny, and switch your style up, make your own challenges instead of whining for bungie to make the game better for you, at my, and the masses expense.

And I really don't like this part of it.

If they make the game less challenging for -you- , why should -I- have to suffer?

Not everyone is swimming in them like you are, and I'm getting so tired of reminding you that.

You play all the time, I do not. I don't have fatebringer, and I just got VoC maybe 2 months ago and it's not leveled. My only crota primary is fang of ir yut.

I swear to god you drive me nuts. I guess you weren't really done with Destiny after all.

This adds nothing to the discussion other than past baggage. We're talking about game theory and design here, not about making the game worse for some and better for others. If talking about the top level meta-game bothers you, ignore the thread or post about how it's different at different levels.

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And I really don't like this part of it.

If they make the game less challenging for -you- , why should -I- have to suffer?

Not everyone is swimming in them like you are, and I'm getting so tired of reminding you that.

You play all the time, I do not. I don't have fatebringer, and I just got VoC maybe 2 months ago and it's not leveled. My only crota primary is fang of ir yut.

I swear to god you drive me nuts. I guess you weren't really done with Destiny after all.

This adds nothing to the discussion other than past baggage. We're talking about game theory and design here, not about making the game worse for some and better for others. If talking about the top level meta-game bothers you, ignore the thread or post about how it's different at different levels.

I sort of understand your annoyance with the tone, but the question is a valid one:

Most of the discussion in this thread about elemental primaries has focused on PvE gameplay. This is different from PvP gameplay in the sense that your choice of weapons does not affect MY gameplay (this is NOT true in PvP; when you have an overpowered weapon in PvP that I don't have, I am objectively at a disadvantage).

Why should a class of weapons that does NOT affect how others play the game be nerfed because one player (or one class of player) suggests that they can't stop themselves from using it if it's around?

I sort of see the argument that "elemental primaries are so much better than the alternative that once I get one (WHENEVER I get one), I'll never go back to a non-elemental primary"... for folks who play the "most efficient gun, all the time" metagame.

I don't play that game. I enjoy having options - and I'd be sad if those options were limited just because some people feel that those options keep them from trying other things.

This would be a different conversation if elemental primaries were extra-valuable in PvP - but we don't have elemental shields, so they're irrelevant (except for their non-elemental stats).

If Thorn or TLW had Outlaw/Firefly, I'd use the hell out of them in PvE. I think you're over-exaggerating the importance of elemental damage, compared to what other attributes make guns desirable.

Outlaw+Firefly is one of those magic combos for PvE, isn't it? I've got several scout rifles with outlaw+firefly, and they are some of the only primaries without elemental damage that I use on a regular basis.

But when the going gets tough (Nightfalls, 35 Prison of Elders) I go back to my elemental Raid or Trials primaries every single time.

Oh, I agree. It's our nature to try to stack the odds in our favour when facing a difficult challenge- why shouldn't we? Against Skolas, Every little bit helps.

That's why I proposed making all primary legendaries/exotics have elemental damage as a counterpoint.

Yeah, that's an interesting suggestion. Just playing devil's advocate, there is one thing about the split between elemental and non-elemental weapons that I like. It gives Bungie another way to create guns that are more well suited to PvP or PvE. Word of Crota is a decent but unremarkable hand cannon, until you factor in the Void damage. Then it becomes fantastic in certain PvE situations. The old vendor TDYK had perks that made it a PvP beast, yet in PvE it is outclassed by many raid weapons or legendaries with other perk combos. Of course, limiting the number of primaries with elemental damage is not the only way to create these distinctions, but it gives Bungie more options.

An element is not the only thing that can make them desirable.

This is exactly it. Firefly on Fatebringer. Full Auto on VoC. Absolutely no recoil + ambush scope on Praedyth's Revenge. The near bottomless clip on Corrective Measure. White Nail on Black Hammer. Those are what really makes those weapons shine.

When you add elemental damage to the primaries it gives you little reason to use other weapons in the end game content though.

I'd make it so that using them outside of burns is not as effective as other legendary primaries.

So in the case of the burn, does MORE damage than non-elemental primaries of the same damage level however without a burn does LESS. Then makes it a more interesting consideration.

Why should a class of weapons that does NOT affect how others play the game be nerfed because one player (or one class of player) suggests that they can't stop themselves from using it if it's around?

If I am understanding you correctly, you're basically saying why should we nerf guns in a PVE sense, because other players don't have them?

I mostly agree with this. However, One problem I had before my DBO days was getting into Raids. Mostly due to the fact that you had to go to LFG sites which is less than desirable. But for the most part when Crota came out, every post for a Crota group had "must have Max Gjallerhorn" in the post. Which was very disheartening for everyone that did not have it. So in some cases this does affect how others play. Of course now I, and most of you on the forums, dont have to worry about LFG sites =]

But yes I mostly agree with this.

Edit: This is just a thought, I know this doesnt really apply to Elemental Primaries, but just weapons in general. Please forgive me.

And I really don't like this part of it.

If they make the game less challenging for -you- , why should -I- have to suffer?

Not everyone is swimming in them like you are, and I'm getting so tired of reminding you that.

You play all the time, I do not. I don't have fatebringer, and I just got VoC maybe 2 months ago and it's not leveled. My only crota primary is fang of ir yut.

I swear to god you drive me nuts. I guess you weren't really done with Destiny after all.

This adds nothing to the discussion other than past baggage. We're talking about game theory and design here, not about making the game worse for some and better for others. If talking about the top level meta-game bothers you, ignore the thread or post about how it's different at different levels.

I sort of understand your annoyance with the tone, but the question is a valid one:

Most of the discussion in this thread about elemental primaries has focused on PvE gameplay. This is different from PvP gameplay in the sense that your choice of weapons does not affect MY gameplay (this is NOT true in PvP; when you have an overpowered weapon in PvP that I don't have, I am objectively at a disadvantage).

Why should a class of weapons that does NOT affect how others play the game be nerfed because one player (or one class of player) suggests that they can't stop themselves from using it if it's around?

I sort of see the argument that "elemental primaries are so much better than the alternative that once I get one (WHENEVER I get one), I'll never go back to a non-elemental primary"... for folks who play the "most efficient gun, all the time" metagame.

I don't play that game. I enjoy having options - and I'd be sad if those options were limited just because some people feel that those options keep them from trying other things.

This would be a different conversation if elemental primaries were extra-valuable in PvP - but we don't have elemental shields, so they're irrelevant (except for their non-elemental stats).

I think it is a question of "do elemental primaries break certain parts of the game". Personally, I enjoy using a wide range of different primary weapons just to have fun with them... until it is time to "get down to business". If I'm running nightfalls or 35 Prison of Elders, activities where the odds are stacked greatly against you, I'll use my elemental primaries 99% of the time because they are so much more effective in those scenarios. If the mission is going to throw tons of shielded majors at me with elemental burns on top, I need all the help I can get.

Personally speaking, I really enjoy the elemental primaries. I like the dynamic they add to these high level PvE activities. Where Cody is coming from (I think, please correct me if I'm wrong, Cody) is that these weapons do, at times, turn the nightfall strikes into a bit of a joke. Personally, I think they're a lot of fun. But I do understand how someone could make the argument that these missions are supposed to be some of the toughest in the game, and elemental primaries break that a bit.

Not everyone is swimming in them like you are, and I'm getting so tired of reminding you that.

You realize removing Elemental primaries would effect you less than me, right?

Why should a class of weapons that does NOT affect how others play the game be nerfed because one player (or one class of player) suggests that they can't stop themselves from using it if it's around?

In some sense, easy nightfalls effect everybody. Easy nightfalls = easy rewards. Easy rewards mean the average player has better guns. This in turn colors the design of future missions in DLC packs. Bungie's only option was to nerf Gjallarhorn, otherwise the next raid would have had to be hard with 6 of them in the fireteam, leaving everybody else completely out of their league.

That's why I proposed making all primary legendaries/exotics have elemental damage as a counterpoint.

This negatively impacts special and heavy weapon choice / management.

That's why I proposed making all primary legendaries/exotics have elemental damage as a counterpoint.

This negatively impacts special and heavy weapon choice / management.

It changes it, but I wouldn't say it is necessarily for the worst.

That's why I proposed making all primary legendaries/exotics have elemental damage as a counterpoint.

This negatively impacts special and heavy weapon choice / management.

It changes it, but I wouldn't say it is necessarily for the worst.

I specifically think it destroys the fusion rifle metagame in PvE. An elemental Scout rifle is just straight up better.

An element is not the only thing that can make them desirable.

This is exactly it. Firefly on Fatebringer. Full Auto on VoC. Absolutely no recoil + ambush scope on Praedyth's Revenge. The near bottomless clip on Corrective Measure. White Nail on Black Hammer. Those are what really makes those weapons shine.

When you add elemental damage to the primaries it gives you little reason to use other weapons in the end game content though.

Outlaw + Firely is such an amazing combo of perks because a high percentage of PvE combat encounters feature very similar situations; Lots of low-level mobs running at you in tight clusters.

Perhaps the weapons don't need to change... maybe the encounters do?

The crota battle makes Red Death an excellent choice because of the mechanics involved. Omnigol makes the Abyss Defiant particularly useful, even though it has the wrong elemental damage for that boss. A single Necrochasm is rarely useful, but several of them working together during the Abyss can be devastating.

Perhaps if Destiny had a wider range of encounters with unique mechanics (as TTK is looking to deliver), we would find a wider range of primary weapons useful in different situations?

I sort of see the argument that "elemental primaries are so much better than the alternative that once I get one (WHENEVER I get one), I'll never go back to a non-elemental primary"... for folks who play the "most efficient gun, all the time" metagame.

I don't play that game. I enjoy having options - and I'd be sad if those options were limited just because some people feel that those options keep them from trying other things.

I agree with this, and I'm right there with you. More often than not I'm using a non-elemental primary because they are more enjoyable for me. I like my custom A.1F-19x, TDYK, Venation III and so forth.

Why should a class of weapons that does NOT affect how others play the game be nerfed because one player (or one class of player) suggests that they can't stop themselves from using it if it's around?

I understood the distinction, and tried to point out that a new, valid perspective was being introduced at the beginning of my previous post.

My point was that those are two entirely different discussions. Cody isn't saying "hey these should be nerfed because the game is too easy for me". He is saying "hey, there might be a gameplay problem once a player has a ton of elemental primaries -- things that should be hard are now too easy". I was responding to the implication that this is about cody's ego and only his meta-game matters. I think he is saying "this is what I see as a problem with end-game meta" and wanting to discuss that. We can discuss both, here or in separate threads, but I don't think the heat is constructive or called for here... so I was pointing it out.

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Back before I got to raid (held out for RL group of friends) doing nightfalls was incredibly difficult and almost nobody would do them with me. I remember being excited for valus ta'auruc with no burns because we could complete it with no elemental primaries. It took a while, but it was a tough fight -- and we didn't cheese it either, stood on the platforms all regular like and killed the waves of mobs between burning valus down. It was an intense 30 minute fight, and I think how it was designed to be played.

The problem was, because it was so challenging, people started wanting to cheese it in the boxes area. I remember later that week taking over an hour for just that fight... because a couple guys I ran with wanted to cheese it. After 20 minutes I wanted to pull my hair out. It just wasn't fun, even though we did get a couple exotics when we had basically zero. That was the point for them -- getting to that next stepping stone rather than enjoying the ride.

Point is, because of the challenge, people often didn't want to do it legit without elemental primaries, it isn't worth the effort to them. I'd hate to see that kind of scenario come back, and be a frequent occurance.

Personally speaking, I really enjoy the elemental primaries. I like the dynamic they add to these high level PvE activities. Where Cody is coming from (I think, please correct me if I'm wrong, Cody) is that these weapons do, at times, turn the nightfall strikes into a bit of a joke. Personally, I think they're a lot of fun. But I do understand how someone could make the argument that these missions are supposed to be some of the toughest in the game, and elemental primaries break that a bit.

I guess this leads into a bigger area that I have a problem with:

I don't think Nightfalls have been 'tough' for a while. (I guess I should explain that 'tough', here, is being used in a specific sense: difficult, but not tedious.)

I think that a year in, with the same half-dozen missions, the only way to make Nightfalls take longer than 10 minutes is to up the damage done by enemies, and nerf the damage done by Guardians. The tactics haven't changed a whit in months.

The only time a Nightfall is more than a cakewalk for a level 34 Guardian is when the skulls make it very hard to kill the enemy, at the same time making it easy for the enemy to wipe us out. And when that happens, people come here (and to other forums) and bitch about it.

A couple of weeks ago, both Brawler and Lightswitch were on - and I thought it was fantastic. I was suddenly faced with a choice I am rarely faced with: should I do what I normally do when Lightswitch is on, and hang back and play the long game, or should I take advantage of the super-fun Brawler modifier and run in there for some close quarters combat, hoping I can either kill with one punch or at least stun so I can dance away from danger?

Other than this memorable (to me) pairing of modifiers, though, Nightfalls are pretty much standard fare these days - they just take longer than other missions. I don't really see reducing that 'grind' (hate calling it that, because I really don't feel most parts of this game are a grind) by offering elemental primaries as a bad thing.

I think CyberKN's suggestion of allowing ALL Legendaries to have elemental burns to be a nice solution to the situation, personally.

Why should a class of weapons that does NOT affect how others play the game be nerfed because one player (or one class of player) suggests that they can't stop themselves from using it if it's around?

In some sense, easy nightfalls effect everybody. Easy nightfalls = easy rewards. Easy rewards mean the average player has better guns. This in turn colors the design of future missions in DLC packs. Bungie's only option was to nerf Gjallarhorn, otherwise the next raid would have had to be hard with 6 of them in the fireteam, leaving everybody else completely out of their league.

So you saw that Tweet yesterday that said that Gjallarhorn isn't getting nerfed so much as not buffed to Year 2 max, right?

(They aren't the same thing, no matter how much you tell me they have the same effect.)

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The problem with Lightswitch + Brawler is that by design, you're always at a disadvantage with melee. Sure, you can one-hit minors, but they usually travel in packs. A Major will only be slightly more annoyed than usual as he punches you back, insta-killing you. In theory, this was a real fun combo, but ultimately I felt forced to avoid melee combat anyway.

Airborn and Grounded were a better combo, though. Some real pros and cons. I'd like to see what folks would do with Specialist, Angry, Airborn, Grounded, and an elemental burn. Just the right amount of Challenge and ease.

Also, enemies need a Catch Skull, or their grenades need to do far more damage. Fun for everyone!

A couple of weeks ago, both Brawler and Lightswitch were on - and I thought it was fantastic. I was suddenly faced with a choice I am rarely faced with: should I do what I normally do when Lightswitch is on, and hang back and play the long game, or should I take advantage of the super-fun Brawler modifier and run in there for some close quarters combat, hoping I can either kill with one punch or at least stun so I can dance away from danger?

I love dynamics like that. I mentioned in an earlier comment that I think elemental primaries creat a similar dynamic during Nightfalls with burns. You're able to do way more damage, which tempts the player to become more aggressive. But you can also die at the drop of a hat, so you're walking this fine line the whole time. It plays very differently from the rest of Destiny, where players and enemies can usually take so much damage.

A couple of weeks ago, both Brawler and Lightswitch were on - and I thought it was fantastic. I was suddenly faced with a choice I am rarely faced with: should I do what I normally do when Lightswitch is on, and hang back and play the long game, or should I take advantage of the super-fun Brawler modifier and run in there for some close quarters combat, hoping I can either kill with one punch or at least stun so I can dance away from danger?

I love dynamics like that. I mentioned in an earlier comment that I think elemental primaries creat a similar dynamic during Nightfalls with burns. You're able to do way more damage, which tempts the player to become more aggressive. But you can also die at the drop of a hat, so you're walking this fine line the whole time. It plays very differently from the rest of Destiny, where players and enemies can usually take so much damage.

Yes.

This week, I ran the nightfall as my first Destiny in almost 2 weeks. We wiped once, so nico had two opportunities to get toasted by the pair of Shriekers at the start. Nobody EVER dies to the shriekers* - but he died both times. (Man, did it piss him off.) Dat void burn...

*Sure, occasionally someone gets unlucky and is killed by the shriekers. But it's really rare, and I've NEVER seen it happen to the same person in back-to-back runs before.

Other than this memorable (to me) pairing of modifiers, though, Nightfalls are pretty much standard fare these days - they just take longer than other missions. I don't really see reducing that 'grind' (hate calling it that, because I really don't feel most parts of this game are a grind) by offering elemental primaries as a bad thing.

The thought just occurred to me that I still run nightfalls almost every week now. It's been a few months since I've really jumped into the strike playlist more than a single strike here or there. For me at least, nightfalls are the new strikes. I wonder if that's intentional on bungie's part?

*Sure, occasionally someone gets unlucky and is killed by the shriekers, but it's rare.

I got lucky the first time. 2nd try... not so much ;)

I thought they have said they were reducing the wolf pack round damage.

That's why I proposed making all primary legendaries/exotics have elemental damage as a counterpoint.

This negatively impacts special and heavy weapon choice / management.

It changes it, but I wouldn't say it is necessarily for the worst.

I specifically think it destroys the fusion rifle metagame in PvE. An elemental Scout rifle is just straight up better.

There is no Fusion rifle meta-game. Fusion rifles are inferior to Shotguns and sniper-rifles.

They need to be re-worked or dropped. and that's a different discussion entirely.

I thought they have said they were reducing the wolf pack round damage.

Oh, yeah, forgot about that. Still... I bet it's still gonna be a go-to weapon for folks who don't have a TTK launcher. ;)

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That's why I proposed making all primary legendaries/exotics have elemental damage as a counterpoint.

This negatively impacts special and heavy weapon choice / management.

It changes it, but I wouldn't say it is necessarily for the worst.

I specifically think it destroys the fusion rifle metagame in PvE. An elemental Scout rifle is just straight up better.

There is no Fusion rifle meta-game. Fusion rifles are inferior to Shotguns and sniper-rifles.

They need to be re-worked or dropped. and that's a different discussion entirely.

Not really. Fusion Rifles are still the best Wizard killers (other than rockets of course)… except for Solar Primaries.

I'll use a sniper, and you can use your FR.

That's why I proposed making all primary legendaries/exotics have elemental damage as a counterpoint.

This negatively impacts special and heavy weapon choice / management.

It changes it, but I wouldn't say it is necessarily for the worst.

I specifically think it destroys the fusion rifle metagame in PvE. An elemental Scout rifle is just straight up better.

There is no Fusion rifle meta-game. Fusion rifles are inferior to Shotguns and sniper-rifles.

They need to be re-worked or dropped. and that's a different discussion entirely.

Not really. Fusion Rifles are still the best Wizard killers (other than rockets of course)… except for Solar Primaries.

Sometimes I wonder if the fact that I play most of the time on a 360 doesn't actually change my playstyle. Since changing weapons is pretty much impossible in the heat of battle on that platform, I have to choose the best ALL-AROUND weapon for a given class before the fight starts; I don't have the luxury of, say, hitting a Wizard with a fusion rifle and then swapping to a shotgun for up-close damage. I have to pick the weapon that will do the most damage to the most different groups - and fusion rifles are pretty much NEVER the right choice.

I wonder if that'll change when I switch permanently to a next-gen console - or if a year of gameplay has hardcoded my choices for me.

I wonder if that'll change when I switch permanently to a next-gen console - or if a year of gameplay has hardcoded my choices for me.

Make the right choice and join the DBO PS4 crew. I haven't seen Pfhorplay online in forever.

;)

I'll use a sniper, and you can use your FR.

I would definitely take that. Although the Death Singer is not your typical Wizard, I still think killing her with Praetorian Foil would be faster than with a sniper.

That's why I proposed making all primary legendaries/exotics have elemental damage as a counterpoint.

This negatively impacts special and heavy weapon choice / management.

It changes it, but I wouldn't say it is necessarily for the worst.

I specifically think it destroys the fusion rifle metagame in PvE. An elemental Scout rifle is just straight up better.

There is no Fusion rifle meta-game. Fusion rifles are inferior to Shotguns and sniper-rifles.

They need to be re-worked or dropped. and that's a different discussion entirely.

Not really. Fusion Rifles are still the best Wizard killers (other than rockets of course)… except for Solar Primaries.

Sometimes I wonder if the fact that I play most of the time on a 360 doesn't actually change my playstyle. Since changing weapons is pretty much impossible in the heat of battle on that platform, I have to choose the best ALL-AROUND weapon for a given class before the fight starts; I don't have the luxury of, say, hitting a Wizard with a fusion rifle and then swapping to a shotgun for up-close damage. I have to pick the weapon that will do the most damage to the most different groups - and fusion rifles are pretty much NEVER the right choice.

I wonder if that'll change when I switch permanently to a next-gen console - or if a year of gameplay has hardcoded my choices for me.

That's not a 360 thing. Even on Next-gen it can take 5-10 seconds for me to swap out a secondary, and even then I lose ammo doing so. I just usually pick a secondary at the start of a mission and stick with it- the only exception being when I can make use of Black hammer against a fallen/cabal tank.

I'll use a sniper, and you can use your FR.

I would definitely take that. Although the Death Singer is not your typical Wizard, I still think killing her with Praetorian Foil would be faster than with a sniper.

I meant against the two bodyguards

I'll use a sniper, and you can use your FR.

I would definitely take that. Although the Death Singer is not your typical Wizard, I still think killing her with Praetorian Foil would be faster than with a sniper.

I meant against the two bodyguards

My odds just went up then!

Sometimes I wonder if the fact that I play most of the time on a 360 doesn't actually change my playstyle. Since changing weapons is pretty much impossible in the heat of battle on that platform, I have to choose the best ALL-AROUND weapon for a given class before the fight starts; I don't have the luxury of, say, hitting a Wizard with a fusion rifle and then swapping to a shotgun for up-close damage. I have to pick the weapon that will do the most damage to the most different groups - and fusion rifles are pretty much NEVER the right choice.

I'll often swap weapons between sections of a raid, and rarely in the middle of a section (usually it's when I forgot to swap during the break). So, I don't think we play any differently as far as that goes.

In an evolving game, some features have to be cut if they have a negative effect on the game, or if you plan to improve them later.

Well said.

A couple of weeks ago, both Brawler and Lightswitch were on - and I thought it was fantastic. I was suddenly faced with a choice I am rarely faced with: should I do what I normally do when Lightswitch is on, and hang back and play the long game, or should I take advantage of the super-fun Brawler modifier and run in there for some close quarters combat, hoping I can either kill with one punch or at least stun so I can dance away from danger?

I've always thought Modifiers should be consolidated. Brawler and Lightswitch should be the same modifier. Same with Airborne and Grounded. Catapult should also be like Halo's Catch skull. Small Arms and Specialists should also work for the enemy weapons (although they would have to go through and make it clear which enemy weapons would qualify as a "primary" and which as a "special", but for the most part those seem pretty obvious). I love when those double modifiers happen. It adds a great risk vs. reward dynamic, just like you mentioned.

When I moved to the Bone, it did give me a little bit of freedom. Even though it still takes a bit to swap guns, on Omnigul I have no problem quickly swapping over to Found Verdict after using a sniper for the whole thing and shotgunning the shit out of her in 10 seconds for a quick kill. I wouldn't do that on the 360, or, I could, but I'd have to plan.

To me, the difference in the weapon swap game is like passing with a slow car vs a normal car. On my ex's standard Cavalier, I'd have to think "All right, going to downshift, gas it, and get over after those cars." Then I'd wait for a massive break. On MY car, I just think "Go time." Floor it, and I'm fine.

In much the same way, appropriate changes do happen in gun usage on the 360. But it's almost never in the most efficient way possible.

Note: I do not think I have been colored by playing on the 360 too much. I used to use fusion rifles and sniper rifles exclusively, never shotguns until the buff, and I would often find myself thinking "Well, I could get that guy with a sniper, or slowly kill him with the Suros so I don't have to swap out my fusion rifle," but still making the changes when necessary, like the boss part of Aksor. I would just have to hide somewhere, when now I don't.

So, in short, I now never use fusion rifles.

I just posted a response in another thread that's somewhat relevant to this, about Nightfalls and Strikes and having fun versus just completing them.

Also, I just found out about the boxes area in that strike a few weeks ago. It was without a doubt the worst Destiny experience I've ever had. It's so boring. And honestly, I think it takes longer because half the time you can't even see him from back there. Yeah, it's safe, so if you don't mind wasting a whole bunch of time, it works. But jesus, I have never cared about any reward Destiny can offer me enough to play a strike like that.

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I don't play that game. I enjoy having options - and I'd be sad if those options were limited just because some people feel that those options keep them from trying other things.

I feel like removing elemental primaries would open up MORE options actually. Specifically, content would be balanced around kinetic primaries, so your choice of primary, special, and heavy would be no only more meaningful, but have more variety. If you are doing something very hard, and an elemental primary would help, there are fewer options because there are fewer of them, than if you were doing something hard, and there were only kinetic primaries, of which there are a lot.

I don't play that game. I enjoy having options - and I'd be sad if those options were limited just because some people feel that those options keep them from trying other things.

I feel like removing elemental primaries would open up MORE options actually. Specifically, content would be balanced around kinetic primaries, so your choice of primary, special, and heavy would be no only more meaningful, but have more variety. If you are doing something very hard, and an elemental primary would help, there are fewer options because there are fewer of them, than if you were doing something hard, and there were only kinetic primaries, of which there are a lot.

As far as I know, there aren't any modifiers that increase the strength of kinetic primaries without nerfing other weapons (as Small Arms does). So fighting bosses with more than average health will take longer with a kinetic primary than with an elemental primary (I can't tell you the number of times I've had no ammo left except primary when fighting in long boss battles). This just drags out the fight - I'm not a huge fan.

As far as I know, there aren't any modifiers that increase the strength of kinetic primaries without nerfing other weapons (as Small Arms does). So fighting bosses with more than average health will take longer with a kinetic primary than with an elemental primary (I can't tell you the number of times I've had no ammo left except primary when fighting in long boss battles). This just drags out the fight - I'm not a huge fan.

I learned to stop using primaries on bosses a long time ago for that very reason. Synths and drop from ads are usually enough to keep special full.

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Something to the effect of the overcharge plasma pistol shield stripping effect. Make fusion rifles do extra damage against shields, regarless of type. And it give the PvP a slightly different application if it cuts another players shields faster with the first couple splinters of the burst.

But they really do need something to set them apart.

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Okay so people like their primaries for burns. Here is I think a good solution:

Shields can only be damaged by either kinetic, or their element.

That means you can only take out a captain's shields with a kinetic or arc weapon, a Wizard's with a solar or kinetic weapon, etc. Attack a Captain with Gjallarhorn? No damage if his shields are up.

This would allow elemental primaries to be ubiquitous, but give them a downside of not being able to damage some enemies at all. This would encourage special management so you had the appropriate element. And if you simply don't have a void weapon to damage minotaurs? Then you use kinetic as a fallback.

Bungie could design strikes and raids so that there are two or three shield types per strike, so that you either co-ordinate as a team with splitting up your elements, or you do the jack of all trades kinetic if you want to be safe. This encourages strategy, teamwork, gives kinetic weapons a benefit, encourages a wider variety of secondary and heavy weapons (Gjallarhorn would be replaced with other weapons more often), allows for perhaps useful kinetic specials and heavies, and still allows for the powerful feeling on burns since not all enemies have shields.

I've had similar thoughts myself. On the one hand, I think it would make high level end-game stuff more interesting. But it would make low-level missions unfairly challenging, at least as they are currently designed. Remember, all special and heavy weapons have elemental damage. New players might only have 1 sniper, or 1 rocket launcher, meaning they wouldn't be able to do any damage to certain enemies except with their primaries (which are all kinetic at that level). Seems a bit too punishing to new players, IMO.

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I've had similar thoughts myself. On the one hand, I think it would make high level end-game stuff more interesting. But it would make low-level missions unfairly challenging, at least as they are currently designed. Remember, all special and heavy weapons have elemental damage. New players might only have 1 sniper, or 1 rocket launcher, meaning they wouldn't be able to do any damage to certain enemies except with their primaries (which are all kinetic at that level). Seems a bit too punishing to new players, IMO.

It doesn't have to be that way going forward. Bungie can have any number of kinetic secondaries and heavies in the Taken King, just like there are plenty of kinetic greens and whites currently.

;)

IIRC, I Fusion Rifles were my go-to when taking down shields, so I bought one of each element ASAP. Hell, those Wizards were impossible without a Solar FR...

Of all the legendaries I acquired early on, that solar Light/BEWARE that the Vanguard sold was the one that made the biggest difference for me. Where before I had had no good options against wizards, suddenly I had the ability to strip their shield almost instantly (which, for a wizard, means they're basically dead). Major game-changer, especially given how challenging the Phogoth strike seemed back then.