Marty O’Donnell wins epic legal fight with former bosses

http://venturebeat.com/2015/09/04/ex-bungie-composer-marty-odonnell-wins-epic-legal-fight-with-former-bosses/

Under a final ruling issued today from a court-appointed arbitrator, Bungie must honor its agreements with O’Donnell that gave him the right to hold a considerable share of stock in the company. And the filing contains for the first time the ordeal that O’Donnell went through as he quarreled with Bungie over issues of creative freedom and stock ownership in the company that he cofounded. The court papers reveal a rare, unseen story of the making of Destiny, and the internal struggles that happened between Activision, the publisher, and Bungie, the developer of the game that is now played by millions.

Congrats to Marty. Looking forward to seeing what comes out of his new studio.

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But personally, from what we know, I see relatable challenges on both sides of this issue. The whole thing just makes me sad.

I think, like Marty, I too would be outraged if a publisher took away my contribution on a vital event like that. But I can also see how challenging it might be for a whole studio to work with that outrage (especially in such an important role) if they were already into the thick of it and trying to make a good game despite challenges with the publisher.

The paragraph that starts with "O’Donnell reacted angrily..." specifically made my heart rise, then turn and sink. :(

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But personally, from what we know, I see relatable challenges on both sides of this issue. The whole thing just makes me sad.

I think, like Marty, I too would be outraged if a publisher took away my contribution on a vital event like that. But I can also see how challenging it might be for a whole studio to work with that outrage (especially in such an important role) if they were already into the thick of it and trying to make a good game despite challenges with the publisher.

So the relatable solution was to strip Marty of his shares for no reason other than "he'd be an ass at board meetings?"

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But personally, from what we know, I see relatable challenges on both sides of this issue. The whole thing just makes me sad.

I think, like Marty, I too would be outraged if a publisher took away my contribution on a vital event like that. But I can also see how challenging it might be for a whole studio to work with that outrage (especially in such an important role) if they were already into the thick of it and trying to make a good game despite challenges with the publisher.

So the relatable solution was to strip Marty of his shares for no reason other than "he'd be an ass at board meetings?"

No. And I doubt that is what Levi was arguing.

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But personally, from what we know, I see relatable challenges on both sides of this issue. The whole thing just makes me sad.

I think, like Marty, I too would be outraged if a publisher took away my contribution on a vital event like that. But I can also see how challenging it might be for a whole studio to work with that outrage (especially in such an important role) if they were already into the thick of it and trying to make a good game despite challenges with the publisher.

So the relatable solution was to strip Marty of his shares for no reason other than "he'd be an ass at board meetings?"

...I don't think I said that. And I didn't mean to imply it.

And I don't know how exactly he behaved because I wasn't there, but things like "He also threatened Bungie employees in an attempt to keep the trailer from being posted online, and interrupted press briefings," doesn't sound great however you interpret it when putting yourself in the other side's shoes.

To be clear, I'm on no side. I have not the knowledge to make judgements if I wanted to. I'm just saying the whole thing is sad to read about from each perspective.

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But personally, from what we know, I see relatable challenges on both sides of this issue. The whole thing just makes me sad.

I think, like Marty, I too would be outraged if a publisher took away my contribution on a vital event like that. But I can also see how challenging it might be for a whole studio to work with that outrage (especially in such an important role) if they were already into the thick of it and trying to make a good game despite challenges with the publisher.

So the relatable solution was to strip Marty of his shares for no reason other than "he'd be an ass at board meetings?"

...I don't think I said that. And I didn't mean to imply it.

I do think it was implied. Your statement reads like "Both sides have a point here: Marty wants his creative vision intact, and Bungie might have difficulty working with an outraged Marty, what a tough call" basically treating Marty's termination as the central issue and glossing over the real meat of the legal battle which was Bungie stripping Marty of his shares in the company (and withholding his unused vacation pay which was even more of an open-and-shut case) for, as we now know, no defensible reason.

To be clear, I'm on no side.

I know, you and others. And it's upsetting. When people here (and elsewhere) hem and haw about "both sides are good/bad, we don't have enough info, etc" it strains credibility. The court documents have revealed plenty, and I think it's fine to favor a side now. Siding with the arbitrator, who has examined all the information and does this for a living and has ruled Bungie was in the wrong, seems prudent.

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Can't we all just blame capitalism?

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Can't we all just blame capitalism?

Blows my mind that's not the default.

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Can't we all just blame capitalism?

Yes, because removing the need for profit has totally freed up game developers. Just look at all those groundbreaking games from kickstarter and indie Gogo.

Oh wait…

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Can't we all just blame capitalism?

Yes, because removing the need for profit has totally freed up game developers. Just look at all those groundbreaking games from kickstarter and indie Gogo.

Oh wait…

Kickstarter won't get you $500 million, I don't think anyone's even gotten $5 million through it
I think you're right though, it's not so much about money as it is varying ideas of what would be a good game to make, and you happen to disagree with most of them

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Kickstarter won't get you $500 million, I don't think anyone's even gotten $5 million through it
I think you're right though, it's not so much about money as it is varying ideas of what would be a good game to make, and you happen to disagree with most of them

Not really a disagreement, just an anomaly I wanted to point out out of interest more than anything: Star Citizen has raised about $88 million in crowdfunding as of August.

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Kickstarter won't get you $500 million, I don't think anyone's even gotten $5 million through it
I think you're right though, it's not so much about money as it is varying ideas of what would be a good game to make, and you happen to disagree with most of them

Not really a disagreement, just an anomaly I wanted to point out out of interest more than anything: Star Citizen has raised about $88 million in crowdfunding as of August.

well shut my mouth, they are cleaning up

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Can't we all just blame capitalism?

Ugh. No. Selfishness, maybe. Not capitalism.

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Can't we all just blame capitalism?

Ugh. No. Selfishness, maybe. Not capitalism.

Ego. I won't say whose. :)

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...I don't think I said that. And I didn't mean to imply it.

I do think it was implied.

Huh?...I just told you it wasn't. Do you think I'm lying or trying to pull one over on you?

Your statement reads like "Both sides have a point here: Marty wants his creative vision intact, and Bungie might have difficulty working with an outraged Marty, what a tough call" basically treating Marty's termination as the central issue and glossing over the real meat of the legal battle which was Bungie stripping Marty of his shares in the company (and withholding his unused vacation pay which was even more of an open-and-shut case) for, as we now know, no defensible reason.

Yes, the legal battle was focused on that aspect, but I was referring to the entire issue. Me not mentioning something specifically does not somehow mean I condone it.

Personally, I thought my statement read like "This whole thing sucks."

To be clear, I'm on no side.

I know, you and others. And it's upsetting. When people here (and elsewhere) hem and haw about "both sides are good/bad, we don't have enough info, etc" it strains credibility. The court documents have revealed plenty, and I think it's fine to favor a side now. Siding with the arbitrator, who has examined all the information and does this for a living and has ruled Bungie was in the wrong, seems prudent.

I've strained my credibility for having a view different from yours?

I never said you or others shouldn't favor a side. And I never said the arbitrator was wrong. But the legal battle was only on one front, one part of this tragedy.

To me, from what I've read, I don't like what Activision did, I don't like what Marty eventually did, and I didn't like what Bungie did in response. The arbitrator made a decision regarding the last point. I was commenting on how the whole series of events was sad.

And I could be wrong about each point or all of them, because I wasn't there and I don't know the people involved. I've only read articles by random people about some legal actions. To me, that doesn't make me an expert, and even if I could pick a side, I don't now how that would make anything better.

The worst part of this whole debacle is easily THIS. Fans against fans.

I don't understand why you've decided to question my credibility, but it sucks, especially coming from someone I had some good times with in the past. It seems like in recent years every time I express my views on something big, I'm either called an idiot, an apologist, and now maybe a liar. I don't know if the community has changed or if by helping with DBO I've somehow gained an oppressive-person-in-power status, but I'm tired of it. I don't do drama. I'd rather take me my leave if it means keeping my memories intact.

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For what it's worth, I thought you made your point perfectly well and clear :-/

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Don't worry about it. I think the majority of people on here saw your post as just "this sucks all around."

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Reading the article it doesn't seem like anyone handled the situation well, and it is simply saddening. At least that's how I feel and Levi pointed that out perfectly. For many of us Bungie is like a couple that we have been friends with a long time and they got a divorce. We still love both sides and want the best for them, but we may choose one side or another. At least that's the way I look at it. I do think Marty should have been able to win based on the evidence, but I also feel he may have overreacted to some of the things that took place and not handled it properly.

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It does suck that some cool dudes left. But, I mean, if Alex Seropian didn't leave, we wouldn't have Stubbs The Zombie, which was a decent game. If Certain Affinity didn't break off, we'd have lost a lot of really good stuff, too. If 343 didn't splinter off, we wouldn't have Halo and Destiny.

Hopefully Marty and "30 seconds" Griesemer can make a winner and we won't regret it.

If you follow the Highwire games blog they post occasionally about new hires and stuff. Looking promising!

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I don't understand why you've decided to question my credibility, but it sucks, especially coming from someone I had some good times with in the past. It seems like in recent years every time I express my views on something big, I'm either called an idiot, an apologist, and now maybe a liar. I don't know if the community has changed or if by helping with DBO I've somehow gained an oppressive-person-in-power status, but I'm tired of it. I don't do drama. I'd rather take me my leave if it means keeping my memories intact.

Don't sweat it. First off your point was clear however some people seem to want to take a side and make it personal. You're right in that both sides screwed up.

First off publishers handle marketing. That's how it is. It was clear from day 1 that's what Activison was going to be doing. Bungie said as much when the deal was announced. The arbiter an independent party said that they decided to use different music for a trailer. They didn't go and say hey we're not going to use your music for the game. In fact it appears the opposite was true and they had every intention of using his music in the game. Marty decided to then according to the findings of the Arbiter threaten other employees and interrupt briefings. That's not professional at all. No ifs ands or buts about it. Marty acted childish doing that.

The arbiter then found that Marty had given out copies of the work he did to other people. At the same time the arbiter mentions that it appears Bungie or at least Marty thought Bungie was withholding releasing the work he did as a means of trying to control him. If they were then they were wrong to do this. Ultimately the arbiter found that Marty handing out copies of his work did not do any damage to Bungie as they tried to claim.

So anyway we move on and after a break Marty comes back and proceeds to continue to cause problems and continues to not get along with co-workers to the point people were complaining about him. Again this isn't professional. Now I have no doubt that again at this point there was internal fighting so I'm sure there were people being petty and probably a little childish on both sides. It still does not make how he acted right.

Now here is where Bungie was in the wrong. When they terminated Marty they should have paid him for any time he had acquired be it sick leave, vacation time, etc. They also should not and I repeat not taken his stock from him. That was wrong and unprofessional on Bungie's part. So yea these findings are pretty neutral on the conflict and if anything paint both parties in a bad light.

Ultimately like you said it's sad that both sides let their relationship get to such a toxic state. It breaks my heart that people that have made some of my most favorite games of all time could not work out their problems. It's peoples lives here though. This isn't some story where there is a good side and a bad side. They're all human and both sides made some serious mistakes. Someday I do hope that they can all work out their differences and maybe recover some friendships that were probably lost in all of this. At the same time I hope Bungie continues to be successful and that Marty, Jamie, and anyone else who left or were fired from Bungie find success and are happy too.

I've said my peace on it now. Hopefully everyone can calm down and quit attacking each other here. Remember we're not enemies. You can discuss things without making it personal and attacking others. As for me I'm gonna go back to playing Destiny, Halo, whatever Marty and them make, and just games in general. I've said my peace on this now.

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But personally, from what we know, I see relatable challenges on both sides of this issue. The whole thing just makes me sad.

I think, like Marty, I too would be outraged if a publisher took away my contribution on a vital event like that. But I can also see how challenging it might be for a whole studio to work with that outrage (especially in such an important role) if they were already into the thick of it and trying to make a good game despite challenges with the publisher.

So the relatable solution was to strip Marty of his shares for no reason other than "he'd be an ass at board meetings?"

...I don't think I said that. And I didn't mean to imply it.

I do think it was implied. Your statement reads like "Both sides have a point here: Marty wants his creative vision intact, and Bungie might have difficulty working with an outraged Marty, what a tough call" basically treating Marty's termination as the central issue and glossing over the real meat of the legal battle which was Bungie stripping Marty of his shares in the company (and withholding his unused vacation pay which was even more of an open-and-shut case) for, as we now know, no defensible reason.

It's almost like the central issue of the case and the central topic of his post don't have to be the same thing. It's almost like he's trying to put things in perspective and see all sides, and encourage other people to do the same, so the forum that he's an admin of doesn't erupt into flames of unified negativity (and then counter-flames against those people). It's almost like you twisted his words and keep attacking because you want to defend Marty or don't like Bungie.

By this kind of reasoning I could take your responses as an implication that Marty's not at fault at all, but I'm sure that wouldn't be accurate. Do you see the flaw there?

To address the central issue of the case, since you apparently want that, sure, it looks Bungie acted like jerks in withholding these shares. From the article, there's no really good reason for them to have done that. Has anyone found the actual legal documents? Are they even available?
edit: found it http://www.scribd.com/doc/278601628/Marty-O-Donnell-v-Bungie-Harold-Ryan
Does anyone speak legalese and have a bunch of time on their hands?

To be clear, I'm on no side.

I know, you and others. And it's upsetting.

There is no need to be upset.

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I know, you and others. And it's upsetting. When people here (and elsewhere) hem and haw about "both sides are good/bad, we don't have enough info, etc" it strains credibility. The court documents have revealed plenty, and I think it's fine to favor a side now. Siding with the arbitrator, who has examined all the information and does this for a living and has ruled Bungie was in the wrong, seems prudent.

Whoa whoa like a professional's expert findings mean anything.

Oh wait yes they do

#TeamMarty

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I know, you and others. And it's upsetting. When people here (and elsewhere) hem and haw about "both sides are good/bad, we don't have enough info, etc" it strains credibility. The court documents have revealed plenty, and I think it's fine to favor a side now. Siding with the arbitrator, who has examined all the information and does this for a living and has ruled Bungie was in the wrong, seems prudent.

Whoa whoa like a professional's expert findings mean anything.

Oh wait yes they do

#TeamMarty

I said this elsewhere, and I'll say it here real quick: I don't think anybody on here has said those findings are wrong. Nobody here is saying that Bungie didn't owe Marty the shares (which is what the arbitrator was ruling on). People are commenting on the details we didn't know about the issue so far, mainly the way in which each party conducted themselves. If anyone here thinks that Bungie was right in withholding shares or unused TO, go ahead and tell me.

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But personally, from what we know, I see relatable challenges on both sides of this issue. The whole thing just makes me sad.

I think, like Marty, I too would be outraged if a publisher took away my contribution on a vital event like that. But I can also see how challenging it might be for a whole studio to work with that outrage (especially in such an important role) if they were already into the thick of it and trying to make a good game despite challenges with the publisher.

So the relatable solution was to strip Marty of his shares for no reason other than "he'd be an ass at board meetings?"

That's quite a shortcut. The arbitrator's finding of fact include that after the dispute over the trailer and pushing up of Destiny's release date, that O'Donnell instigated a slowdown at work, about which the audio department complained, and that this was holding up the completion of the game. It was on the basis of that that O'Donnell was fired, and in previous versions of O'Donnell's contracts, it was crystal clear that anyone leaving Bungie for any reason would forefeit all unvested shares. A late 2010 revision of that agreement introduced ambiguities over those conditions that O'Donnell sought to use to recover his shares, but the arbitrator denied that claim.

The problem I see here is that the story "O'Donnel wins and gets back shares" is true, but people are (quite logically) connecting the dots by assuming that because he got his shares back, that O'Donnell's firing was illegal (it was not) or that it was illegal to strip a fired employee of his unvested stock (it was not). What the arbitrator found is that it was within the power of Bungie's management to choose to fire O'Donnell on a schedule that would have allowed some of his stock to vest, and that in not doing so, Bungie "breached the duty of good faith and fair dealing". Because the arbitrator deemed it fair and equitable, that is what O'Donnell was awarded.

Also... I'm sorry, I can say in my personal experience that you cannot underestimate the potential problems that can be caused by a minority shareholder being an ass at board meetings, especially if your foundation documents require unanimous votes for certain things.

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So much to unpack here.

Like many of you, I'm surprised that the truth came out so quickly. I didn't think we would hear the full story until many years after the fact. (I still think that's the way Activision and Bungie would have liked it, but unfortunately for them, Marty forced the issue and the truth came out in court. Echoes of West/Zampella...)

These court papers confirm several things that I had already suspected.

First and foremost, we now have explicit conformation that the game underwent a major story revision in August 2013, which explains so many of the glaring problems with the final product. That fact had already been reported on Reddit shortly after the game's release, but it was dismissed by most people here because it was posted without proof. Looks like it had at least a kernel of truth to it. By the way, here's a link to that Reddit thread.
Second, we now have explicit confirmation that Activision interfered with at least the marketing of the game, overruling Bungie's creative choices in favor of their own "executive-approved" alternatives. I would not be surprised if the story revision in 2013 was made at Activision's request. We don't know either way, of course, but it seems much more likely in light of this new information.
Third, we now have explicit confirmation that Music of the Spheres is complete and is being intentionally withheld, for no apparent reason other than Activision. (Are you beginning to see a pattern here?)
It's interesting to read that Bungie wanted Marty to compose the music for the entire franchise all at once, rather than game-by-game. There could be innocuous reasons for that, but it looks suspiciously like they were covering their asses in case they had to fire their "loose cannon" department head. Again, we don't know... and I'm not making any judgments. It just looks really suspicious to me.
This passage is very interesting to me.

"O’Donnell reacted angrily and believed Activision had overstepped its proper role by assuming artistic control of the trailer music. Ryan, the CEO of Bungie, and management shared his concern and filed a “veto” letter with Activision, which overruled the objection. During E3, O’Donnell tweeted that Activision, not Bungie, had composed the trailer music. He also threatened Bungie employees in an attempt to keep the trailer from being posted online, and interrupted press briefings."

I truly sympathize with Marty here, but I'm also surprised at the unprofessionalism of his reaction. I agree that Activision had overstepped its boundaries. Marty had every right to be angry about that. However, once Ryan submitted his objection and it came back overruled, that should have been the end of it. It sucks that Activision has the power to overrule Bungie's creative decisions, but at the end of the day, Bungie put themselves in that position, and Marty should have known that something like this might happen one day.

Actually, I'm not going to pull any punches. We're talking about Activision here. Marty should have known that something like this would happen one day, and not only once, but several times.

Am I judging him? No, but his behavior here was completely unwarranted. The tweet is merely a statement of fact, and by itself just comes off as sort of snarky and egotistical, but when coupled with all this other shit it feels really unprofessional and self-centered of him.

I understand (and completely agree) with his anger toward the whole situation, but damn... threatening employees is pretty indefensible.

Kudos to Bungie for ignoring Activision's pleas to fire him outright. Ryan sounds way too trigger-happy and eager to please his overlords at Activision. The negative performance review was a smart alternative. In isolation, Marty's behavior can be explained as a sort of "crime of passion", and it would have been foolhardy to fire him without making any attempt to set things right and move forward.
We don't know enough about what happened after that to say anything of substance, really, but it sounds like Marty just didn't have his heart in it after realizing the true extent of Activision's control over the game and the company. That's unbelievably sad to consider, but it explains his emphasis on "work for hire" in recent interviews. Artists need to work in an environment that foster creativity and allow for creative risk-taking. It doesn't sound like Activision is promoting that sort of environment over at Bungie.

I don't know if he was intentionally giving less than 100% of his effort or if he was just burned out on the idea of working on something that was creatively compromised, but that's a pretty tough situation for Bungie to handle. At that stage, I actually sympathize more with the studio, but I'm still not sure if firing him was the right move. Again, we don't know enough about what happened to say anything of substance.
Almost lost amidst all this drama is the revelation that we will probably never see Music of the Spheres. Never say never, I suppose, but let's look at the facts here. Activision has no interest in releasing it, Marty can't release it without explicit consent from Bungie (which he will likely never receive in light of these new facts), and Bungie either can't or won't release it independently of Activision.

That makes me really sad. Music of the Spheres was one of the few things I had left to look forward to in the Destiny universe, and now we're probably not going to get it.

The article does say that Bungie looked into finding a publisher in 2013, but clearly nothing ever came of that. The revelation that they were possibly (probably) withholding the release on purpose, basically to spite Marty (which is super unprofessional, but then again, so is stealing shares of the company from one of its owners), seems to indicate that it's not very important to them.

Nobody comes out of this looking good, but I have to say, at least Marty's unprofessionalism was motivated by artistic integrity. Bungie's unprofessionalism seems motivated by little more than pettiness.

And then, of course, we have Activision, who are increasingly looking like the root of most of this game's development woes. Goddamn it, Activision.

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And then, of course, we have Activision, who are increasingly looking like the root of most of this game's development woes. Goddamn it, Activision.

For perspective: Activision is also the root of the game, period. To the tune of $500 million. And Bungie did not accidentally enter into a publishing agreement with them.

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And then, of course, we have Activision, who are increasingly looking like the root of most of this game's development woes. Goddamn it, Activision.

For perspective: Activision is also the root of the game, period. To the tune of $500 million. And Bungie did not accidentally enter into a publishing agreement with them.

Sadly, if you want to make a AAA game, you have to put up with the people who have money.

It's a shame the people with money feel they need to act this way with a developer who made fucking Halo, but hey, maybe Activision thinks they know better.

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And then, of course, we have Activision, who are increasingly looking like the root of most of this game's development woes. Goddamn it, Activision.

For perspective: Activision is also the root of the game, period. To the tune of $500 million. And Bungie did not accidentally enter into a publishing agreement with them.

Sadly, if you want to make a AAA game, you have to put up with the people who have money.

It's a shame the people with money feel they need to act this way with a developer who made fucking Halo, but hey, maybe Activision thinks they know better.

I personally don't have an ethical problem with publishers doing trailers for the stuff they put out. I mean, I may not like them, but that's usually a part of their domain. Most publishers, in any medium, control and create a lot of the advertising and don't take a second to confirm whether or not the actual creator is cool with whatever they're throwing out there. You can read blogs of famous authors (I'm thinking of Neil Gaiman at this moment) who have commented that they think their publisher, at one time or another, marketed their book wrong. Directors have disproved of trailers for their movie. Comic creators haven't liked how their publisher pitched their work. Hell, famous master painters had patrons that directed their art.

To me, the problem was how Activision dismissed Marty's and Bungie's complaints. That led to Marty's departure and thus interference with the actual product, or at least its follow-ups, which is far worse than messing about with the advertising in my opinion.

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Sadly, if you want to make a AAA game, you have to put up with the people who have money.

Think about what Hideo Kojima did, and which Konami published:

Metal Gear Solid 2. An elaborate joke in which you don't even play as the guy from the first game.
Metal Gear Solid 4. The video game equivalent of Springtime for Hitler.

Both of these were expensive AAA titles, yet it's clear he was able to do absolutely ridiculous things that I am sure Activision would not allow. There clearly exist other publishers who can spend big bucks (MGS 4 was one of the most expensive games ever at the time of release), yet still allow you to do whatever you want creatively.

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Unfortunately, Konami's relationship with Kojima ended up imploding, and there's controversy over whether or not they interfered with the creative process for MGSV.

Super spoilers inbound. DO NOT READ unless you've beaten MGSV.

There is a rumor that Konami forced Kojima to cut controversial content related to child soldiers, which explains why a lot of the stuff we saw with African child soldiers in the pre-release trailers didn't make it into the final product. There is another rumor that Konami forced Kojima to deliver the game before it was ready, which is why they had to cut Mission 51, which would have wrapped up Liquid's arc and explained what happened to the Sahelanthropus. It's likely that other missions were cut too. Chapter 2 feels noticeably barren.

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Funny how child soldiers are not ok, but everything that happened to Paz was fine.

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And I'll again point out that we have no evidence that shows Activision has hindered Bungie creatively at all.

They declined to use Marty's music in a trailer. That's all we know, and it doesn't show they interfered with the game development.

Yes, most people think Destiny is the result of Bungie caving into Activision. I'm not convinced that's what happened.

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Agreed. Mostly. Except for the part about pettiness. Threats of breach of contract coming from your publisher are a big deal. Did Bungie do everything right after that? Almost certainly not. But the whole Paul McCartney / Music of the Spheres thing always felt a little like Marty trying to drag Activision and Bungie into doing things they would never do. It felt very out of place for companies making a new game. And in doing so things ended up bad for everyone involved. :(

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But the whole Paul McCartney / Music of the Spheres thing always felt a little like Marty trying to drag Activision and Bungie into doing things they would never do. It felt very out of place for companies making a new game.

Wait, what? It added to the hype, it was published all over, and the reaction to it was fantastic. And if the rumors are true about $750,000+ being dropped on Led Zeppelin (when I assume an actual collaboration with Paul McCartney was maybe nowhere near that type of price), then this sentiment seems even more ridiculous.

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It wasn't even Marty's idea. Paul came to him.

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Second, we now have explicit confirmation that Activision interfered with at least the marketing of the game,

They're the publisher. Marketing is what publishers handle.

Are people willingly forgetting Microsoft 'publisher vetoed' Bungie on entire games while they were owned by MS?

Choosing the song for a trailer (which is marketing) is absolutely small-fries compared to that.

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In what alternate universe do we live in where people think Microsoft was somehow a good guy publisher? Jesus christ, the whole idea behind Bungie buying their freedom from Microsoft was to get away from that horseshit! They didn't orchestrate their escape because the sex had grown stale and they just wanted to try new things.

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In what alternate universe do we live in where people think Microsoft was somehow a good guy publisher? Jesus christ, the whole idea behind Bungie buying their freedom from Microsoft was to get away from that horseshit! They didn't orchestrate their escape because the sex had grown stale and they just wanted to try new things.

Bungie doesn't have self-capital to launch and maintain a AAA game. You need publishers for that. They have the connections, money, and expertise.

Many graves are filled with the names of game companies who ran themselves thin trying to handle publishing duties on top of being a developer, who cared more about a label than logistics capability.

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Of course they don't have the capitol to do it themselves, but Activision isn't the only publisher in existence. Bungie chose Activision, it wasn't forced upon them.

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Exactly. So why can't people respect their choice? They're not idiots. Maybe Activision was the BEST publisher for their particular needs, whatever they decided those were. We have no idea. People act like Bungie made a deal with the Devil, not knowing what they were getting into. I'm relatively certain a contract was signed that spells out terms that both sides agree on. There really shouldn't be any surprises.

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Evidently there were some surprises, whether or not that "should" have happened. And you're right, Bungie, or at least the people in charge of making those decisions, probably did make the choice that they felt was best for the company and their needs.

I just thought at the time, and continue to think, that getting into bed with a publisher with as storied a background as shitheads as Activision was probably not going to end well.

Also, I don't have any actual authority over Bungie in any way, so I'm not "letting" or "not letting" them have or do anything by posting on a message board. I also sincerely doubt that they care what a random Johnny on the net thinks about any decision they make.

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Not every publisher is going to treat them like Microsoft did. They had to learn the hard way.

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Not every publisher is going to treat them like Microsoft did. They had to learn the hard way.

Yeah, the Bungie/Microsoft relationship was all sunshine and rainbows. Especially around Halo 2 and Halo 3: Recon. ;)

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Halo 2 was Bungie's fault.

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Halo 2 was Bungie's fault.

Because a single entity is always at fault, couldn't possibly be more than one thing that caused it :-p

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OK, so the campaign ended earlier than originally planned, but it was a great game. GREAT GAME. Yes, it is Bungie's fault that we ended up with a great game. Thank you Bungie for screwing up and giving me such a great game.

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Halo 2 was my favorite Halo.

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Whoa there. Hold your horses.

All I said was that Halo 2's development woes were not Microsoft's fault. They were Bungie's. This is well documented and pretty pointless to debate. The game is obviously incomplete, rushed, and filled with bugs, and while patches mitigated those issues over time, they were blatantly obvious on launch day.

However...

I did NOT at any point say that it was a bad game. It wasn't. On the contrary, Halo 2 is my favorite Halo game.

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Whoa there. Hold your horses.

All I said was that Halo 2's development woes were not Microsoft's fault. They were Bungie's. This is well documented and pretty pointless to debate.

I did NOT at any point say that it was a bad game. It wasn't. On the contrary, Halo 2 is my favorite Halo game.

Just language, I guess. Saying something is someone's "fault" implies it's bad. Also, it's easy to assume that's what you meant, as a lot of folks love to shit on Halo 2. My apologies.

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No, I'm tired of hearing that excuse. It's shitty reading comprehension from people who apparently just expect me to shit on everything all the time.

My tone can be blunt and irreverent, and yes, even rude sometimes, but if you actually read what I have to say, most of the time it's more nuanced than my reputation would indicate.

But it wasn't really directed at you. I was just setting red robber's sarcastic little straw man ablaze.

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No, I'm tired of hearing that excuse. It's shitty reading comprehension from people who apparently just expect me to shit on everything all the time.

My tone can be blunt and irreverent, and yes, even rude sometimes, but if you actually read what I have to say, most of the time it's more nuanced than my reputation would indicate.

But it wasn't really directed at you. I was just setting red robber's sarcastic little straw man ablaze.

All you wrote was "Halo 2 was Bungie's fault." In response to someone saying "Yeah, the Bungie/Microsoft relationship was all sunshine and rainbows. Especially around Halo 2 and Halo 3: Recon. ;)" Forgive us for not catching the "nuance."

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In context, it makes perfect sense. Duncan's post was about Microsoft's relationship with Bungie. Halo 2 wasn't a victim of that, but of unfortunate development decisions by Bungie. Forgive me for not being more specific.

It wasn't intended as a "Bungie sucks" comment either, so don't go there.

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Aside from the fact that you're a blatant troll (who was actually doing an awesome job of genuinely contributing in this thread until you blew up a post or two ago), and aside from the fact that I'm feeding you, you're still wrong. While Bungie's development issues may be on them, Microsoft wouldn't allow a delay in launch. Sorry homie. It takes two to screw up a game launch. Hell, look at the Master Chief Collection. Microsoft is good at letting busted things go loose for that dolla dolla bill. Thank goodness Halo 2's multiplayer was so fun, busted things and all. And that story was fantastic.

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Microsoft delayed Halo 2 several times. They finally had to step in and put their foot down when Bungie still couldn't make it.

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h2's problems were Bungie's fault. End of.

There is no need to get a wobbly lower lip if somebody says it.

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h2's problems were Bungie's fault. End of.

You already added some nuance yourself here by inserting the word "problems" into the original statement. If car15 had thrown in "problems" with his original comment, he wouldn't have needed to kvetch about our "shitty reading comprehension."

There is no need to get a wobbly lower lip if somebody says it.

Saying shit like this is why nobody likes you two.

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Bungie.org, where opposing points of view go to get bent.

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Bungie.org, where opposing points of view go to get bent.

Neither of you ever contribute anything around here besides snide, gloating dickery. I tolerate Cody's posts because he actually contributes thoughtful and necessary criticism, even if sometimes he's a dick for no reason.

You and scarab are almost always dicks for no reason. You come here when there's something negative on the tubes, to parade it around that Bungie is just a pit of assholes.

We get it. You don't like the way Bungie does business. Hell, I don't like they way they've treated Marty. They've been totally unprofessional, and I personally love that Marty fought them all the way on it. But you're only here to stick it in people's faces. When there is anything else to talk about, you're persona non grata. And if that's all you're here for, to be a dick, then you aren't an opposing view point. You're just a dick.

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I contribute my honest opinion. That opinion has been pretty negative post-Halo.

I wasn't aware that you were required to balance out your honest opinion with fellatio if you wanted to post here, but I guess I'll go buy some mouthwash and give it a shot.

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I contribute my honest opinion. That opinion has been pretty negative post-Halo.

I wasn't aware that you were required to balance out your honest opinion with fellatio if you wanted to post here, but I guess I'll go buy some mouthwash and give it a shot.

Okay everyone needs to calm down. Nobody is saying anyone can't have an opinion. But I have to point out the really REALLY obvious point here, so you can understand the reason why so many people react so angrily:

The site's name is Destiny.Bungie.Org. It was built, and is run by, Bungie and Destiny fans. This is not a general discussion forum. Do you really think that coming to this forum and making posts against Bungie and/or Destiny is going to come across well among these people? They come here to talk about their passion for Destiny and Bungie. Acting like this is some shocking revelation is childish. And making crude comments as the one seen above is not helping.

And if you all know all of this and are doing it specifically to piss people off, then we need to have a different discussion.

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Look. If there was a rule that said, "This is a place for Bungie supporters and we do not want negativity in our community," I would respect that. However, no such rule exists, and everything Claude has ever said indicates that he wants people to say what's on their mind.

If I'm wrong about that, Claude, please correct me now.

I realize this is a place for Bungie fans. That's actually why I'm here as well. I (used to be) a Bungie fan, but seeing what's happened to this company in the past 3-5 years depresses me, and I feel compelled to speak. It hits me where it hurts. So, yes, I have very passionate opinions about what's going on, and I'm very "unfiltered" about it.

I'm not doing this specifically to piss people off, although when someone responds to something I write with blatant rudeness or dismissal, I respond in kind. That's not going to stop, so if you have a problem with it, you might as well ban me now and get it over with.

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I (used to be) a Bungie fan, but seeing what's happened to this company in the past 3-5 years depresses me, and I feel compelled to speak.

The question remains: if you're no longer a Bungie fan, what compels you to speak to us?

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It's more to Bungie themselves, because I know they're reading.

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It's more to Bungie themselves, because I know they're reading.

They have their own feedback forum. One where you won't piss off an isolated Bungie fan community. They read that as well.

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Let's say for the sake of argument that I'm a 5/10 on the intelligence scale. I'm kind of a duffer, so most of you are a step or two above me.

Bungie.net is a 1/10.

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Let's say for the sake of argument that I'm a 5/10 on the intelligence scale. I'm kind of a duffer, so most of you are a step or two above me.

Bungie.net is a 1/10.

But you mainly care about Bungie reading according to you, so what's that matter?

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I was not commenting on your hatred of Bungie or Destiny, or your freedom to do so. I was commenting on your act that you're surprised when people react angrily to this. This is not a shocking revelation, stop acting like it is.

And you mention you come to this forum to speak out about it. To what end? Have you seen a single person on here who has been swayed by your arguments? The only things I've seen occur are anger, sadness, and people actually leaving the forums. You are not converting anyone to your line of thinking. So what is your goal? To brush your own ego?

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Who has actually left the forums because of me?

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Who has actually left the forums because of me?

I am not going to publicly reveal a group of people that left quietly. Multiple people have told me in private conversations that they left because of toxicity on the forums, and specific names came up in the conversation.

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Are you sure it was because of me, or is it just that Bungie has become a more negative community after the disappointing events of the last 3-5 years?

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Are you sure it was because of me, or is it just that Bungie has become a more negative community after the disappointing events of the last 3-5 years?

I say again: they mentioned specific names. I know you're trying to justify that you couldn't possibly have played a part in people leaving, but this is once again going nowhere. I still do not understand why you choose to come and rain on a bunch of Bungie and Destiny fans' parade. I hope you enjoy it, because the rest of us do not.

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This community has such a thin skin.

I'm not here to rain on your parade, and even if I were, is your passion for this company so fragile that it can't withstand a few people's negativity?

Like what you like. I don't care. This whole bullshit notion that I'm "ruining your fun" intentionally just makes you sound too weak to stand by the fact that you're having fun.

If you are really that satisfied, then why should anything I say have such an impact on you? Just ignore it and continue having fun!

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Realize that many people have considered bungie.org their home on the Internet for years and years. Notice no one here goes and "fights the good fight" to defend Bungie and Destiny on other forums and communities. To a lot of people on this very site having someone come in regularly and vehemently bash Bungie and Destiny is similar to someone coming into their home and telling them how ugly their home decorating choices are. The fact that you somehow think that everyone is really just insecure about their love of Bungie and Destiny shows a serious lack of understanding of what many, many people have and do consider this community to be to them.

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This community has such a thin skin.

I'm not here to rain on your parade, and even if I were, is your passion for this company so fragile that it can't withstand a few people's negativity?

Like what you like. I don't care. This whole bullshit notion that I'm "ruining your fun" intentionally just makes you sound too weak to stand by the fact that you're having fun.

If you are really that satisfied, then why should anything I say have such an impact on you? Just ignore it and continue having fun!

Except we can't all just pack up and go somewhere and leave you doing what you want somewhere else. This is a shared space and when someone is within that space insulting you, like you are here in this very post, it's not easy to ignore.

DBO is a park. Every thread is a spot for a gathering or a picnic. Sometimes I like to throw a blanket out and have a nice dinner with Kermit or Breitzen or somebody. Every once in a while a guy shows up and tells us our sandwiches aren't very good. If we never see him again, that's pretty easy to ignore. If he talks to us and we build a common ground to form a friendly relationship, it becomes easier and sometimes fun to discuss how those sandwiches could be better. But if he keeps just randomly popping up and eventually cursing at us, it's time to pack up and find a different picnic spot. But the park is only so big and if he keeps following us, whether to shout at us or the people who made our sandwiches, we are left with only one option: leave the park.

And I don't think people should have to do that because you think they should have tougher skin.

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I'm in!

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Me too. I'll bring the beers! ;)

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Who has actually left the forums because of me?

If you were a frequent poster, I would leave immediately.

You say you only respond in kind, but your initial posts are often rude and dismissive in first place.

There are a number of people here who post critiques on Bungie's games - in fact, negative critiques probably make up half of this forum's history. But often they can be civil and allow for some sort of comradery. If you haven't noticed, your attitude and language tend to incite and disrupt instead. Good conversation doesn't follow - see what happened here and almost every time you jump in. Whereas I've seen IconicBananna and GV both dissect and discuss problems with Bungie games without getting beat to the point where harsh words come out.

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You say you only respond in kind, but your initial posts are often rude and dismissive in first place.

Back that up with evidence.

If you haven't noticed, your attitude and language tend to incite and disrupt instead. Good conversation doesn't follow - see what happened here and almost every time you jump in.

Is that so? I think I was doing perfectly alright here until certain people waltzed in with their dismissive dickery.

I'm not the kind of person to sit back and take insults without responding. Like I said before, if someone wants to start some shit with me, I'm ready to go, and that's not going to change.

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You say you only respond in kind, but your initial posts are often rude and dismissive in first place.

Back that up with evidence.

I apologize for generalizing, but I'm not going to go through 500 posts to find every example. After reading this forum for years, when you pop up, heated conversations happen half the time. This is not a fluke. You wording is often very inciteful - so often in the past that even when you don't use it now, people still have a hard time not reading your words with spite.

If you haven't noticed, your attitude and language tend to incite and disrupt instead. Good conversation doesn't follow - see what happened here and almost every time you jump in.

Is that so? I think I was doing perfectly alright here until certain people waltzed in with their dismissive dickery.

I'm not the kind of person to sit back and take insults without responding. Like I said before, if someone wants to start some shit with me, I'm ready to go, and that's not going to change.

Your initial post "Wow" here WAS good. Then people responded - and they even did it with smiley faces and "apologies". But you can see it was this rude and dismissive post that caused a branch in the thread, escalating to a middle school cafeteria shouting fest.

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Who has actually left the forums because of me?

I didn't leave the forum, but I engaged in it very little, and just recently I've been getting back into it more. That's partly because I used to read nearly every thread and post and usually didn't even skim, and I stopped caring that much and having that much time. It's also in large part because of the negativity and because of how widespread and uniform it was (the same, IDK, three or so things over and over). A lot of that was not from you, but from people like you. Some of it was from you, and you did not help the atmosphere and the tone of the forum.

It's sad. I was here before you, as I said I used to read everything so I saw all your posts, and I recently looked back at some old threads, so I can say with confidence: you were positive and contributory at first, and then you turned nasty when the game came out, and you stayed that way despite several extended breaks.

It's the Cody Miller problem without the suggestions or the interesting (if not original) criticism or the interesting counter-arguments-- you get going and suddenly it's all about you and it's all negative.

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Alls he's sayin is, ya don't see ol' snipe 'round these parts no more, ya dig?

:^)

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Bungie.org, where opposing points of view go to get bent.

Neither of you ever contribute anything around here besides snide, gloating dickery. I tolerate Cody's posts because he actually contributes thoughtful and necessary criticism, even if sometimes he's a dick for no reason.

You and scarab are almost always dicks for no reason. You come here when there's something negative on the tubes, to parade it around that Bungie is just a pit of assholes.

I remember criticising the Vault at length, saying what was wrong about it, how its faults impacted gameplay and suggesting ways to fix it. I remember Bungie addressing some of its faults and they and others providing alternate ways of switching gear (via apps and the web) and I remember many people being happy about the changes. And I wasn't just saying, "we need more vault space".

I remember saying how Bungie didn't respect our time (you may remember me saying that b4 I stopped playing) and I remember (was it Luke?) saying in a recent twitch stream saying how Bungie was listening to fan criticism and that they were making changes in TTK to respect fans' time. Was the wording just coincidence?

What constructive criticisms have you made of the game? What input did you give Bungie to make the game better?

Because from my point of view it is you being the dick. You winge about people even making constructive criticism, I suspect that to you any criticism is just bitching. You don't discriminate.

Bungie themselves said that they expected fan criticism and that they welcomed it. They know that they didn't get it all right, that they could do better and that they were acting on what we said to make the game better.

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I believe it is easy to group people together on a forum, especially when harsh tones are being used.

You do give constructive criticism, Scarab, but you also rarely ever post anything outside of that. When that sort of frequency happens, it becomes a challenge to not let you blend in with others who only jump in to twist the knife when something 'scandalous' happens.

In an almost reverse of what IconicBanana did, you've pinned him to the opposite wall - saying that he never criticizes and looks down on those that do.

But both of you are generalizing. I've seen Scarab post positive and I've see IconicBanana criticize.

...I think in this situation it's important to note something.

People bring up the website's name all the time. "Hey, it's called DESTINY.Bungie.Org." or "Dude, it's called Destiny.BUNGIE.Org." but one I rarely see is:

"It's called "Destiny.Bungie.ORG".

We're just people. I think everyone should remember that, when writing a post, the primary audience of it will be me, and him, and you, it's all of us here. Yes, Bungie may read this forum every once in a while (or perhaps very rarely, I don't know ), but this place shouldn't be just a springboard at a chance to talk to Bungie. It should be a community first. When a DBO user sits down to type something, that's who they're speaking to.

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...is why Levi is an admin here.

He was annoyed earlier by this whole kerfluffle, but he's still willing to sit down and write a pretty insightful post that reminded me why I'm here.

Thanks, Levi.

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No, I'm tired of hearing that excuse. It's shitty reading comprehension from people who apparently just expect me to shit on everything all the time.

My tone can be blunt and irreverent, and yes, even rude sometimes, but if you actually read what I have to say, most of the time it's more nuanced than my reputation would indicate.

But it wasn't really directed at you. I was just setting red robber's sarcastic little straw man ablaze.

Regardless, an apology was given without further insult, no need to add anger to the conversation.

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No, I'm tired of hearing that excuse. It's shitty reading comprehension from people who apparently just expect me to shit on everything all the time.

Just have to point out, you said:

Halo 2 was Bungie's fault."

Fault implies bad, based on its definition. It has a very negative connotation. So my reading comprehension is fine.

My tone can be blunt and irreverent, and yes, even rude sometimes, but if you actually read what I have to say, most of the time it's more nuanced than my reputation would indicate.

Also just have to point out that I've only been back around these forums since about HoW, and you have not been here much in that time. Today is one of a handful of times I've seen you post. I have no idea what your stance on anything is. I don't have any preconceptions about you; I don't know anything about your reputation, nor do I particularly care.

But it wasn't really directed at you. I was just setting red robber's sarcastic little straw man ablaze.

Acknowledged. I'm not trying to start a fight.

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Halo 2 was Bungie's fault."

Fault implies bad, based on its definition. It has a very negative connotation.

Well, yeah. Halo 2's development was bad. It didn't go the way Bungie planned and they ended up scrambling to finish the game.

It just wasn't "bad" in the sense that they did it intentionally, or they're jerks for doing it, or they deserve to be punished or ridiculed for it, etc...

It was just bad.

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No, I'm tired of hearing that excuse. It's shitty reading comprehension from people who apparently just expect me to shit on everything all the time.

no that's bad writing comprehension, "fault" is a negative term

My tone can be blunt and irreverent, and yes, even rude sometimes, but if you actually read what I have to say, most of the time it's more nuanced than my reputation would indicate.

uh, no?

But it wasn't really directed at you. I was just setting red robber's sarcastic little straw man ablaze.

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Uh, fuck you?

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No, I'm tired of hearing that excuse. It's shitty reading comprehension from people who apparently just expect me to shit on everything all the time.

no that's bad writing comprehension, "fault" is a negative term

My tone can be blunt and irreverent, and yes, even rude sometimes, but if you actually read what I have to say, most of the time it's more nuanced than my reputation would indicate.

uh, no?

But it wasn't really directed at you. I was just setting red robber's sarcastic little straw man ablaze.

for the record I was going to delete that post after I saw someone else replied the same way (I left the reply window open for a while I guess), but now it's pointless

Uh, fuck you?

oh whoops, I must have left this on

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(it's an upsetting machine)

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I should have read further past that post before I replied (really just all of the thread). I'll stop with that conversation.

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Whoa there. Hold your horses.

All I said was that Halo 2's development woes were not Microsoft's fault. They were Bungie's.

Debatable. The release date was set by Microsoft.

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While Destiny was planned for a September 2013 release, the story was substantially revised in August 2013. That pushed the release date back to March 2014.

https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/70908920/0/0/1

I can confirm that there were sudden and abrupt changes in the development of Destiny less than a year ago. There was tension between higher ups the entire time we were developing the title due to a lack of cohesion about the vision for the game. One side wanted this huge space epic, like an MMO Mass Effect and the other side was not convinced that would sell and wanted to pare things back to more "easily accessible" standards. They were afraid too much story elements and cut scenes would drive players off. Then Joe left and everything just fell apart. By the time we were 7 months out to release, word came down that we were making massive revisions to the game's story.

These accounts line up perfectly. DeeJ claimed it was trolling...I don't know what to think at this point.

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These accounts line up perfectly. DeeJ claimed it was trolling...I don't know what to think at this point.

We still don't know what happened, I think the main reason DeeJ said that (and the main reason so many of us took it with a grain of salt in the first place) is the person provided zero evidence that they worked for Bungie. I would guess if DeeJ said they were trolling one of two things were true:

1. They didn't work for Bungie and DeeJ knew it.
2. They did work for Bungie, but DeeJ didn't know that.

There is the third "sinister" possibility: that they did work for Bungie, and DeeJ knew it, but was trying to contain it, but he could have just as easily not responded and gotten pretty much the same reaction as what we got.

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There's technically another two possibilities. The details the guy said were wrong, but based on some real stuff that happened.

The other one is that he made it up based on the departure times of the cool dudes at Bungie, the changes we saw in a few released footage things, an inference from the small amount of in game story presentation, and lucked out on the timing being approximately correct.

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There's technically another two possibilities. The details the guy said were wrong, but based on some real stuff that happened.

The other one is that he made it up based on the departure times of the cool dudes at Bungie, the changes we saw in a few released footage things, an inference from the small amount of in game story presentation, and lucked out on the timing being approximately correct.

This is what I have been assuming. He could have been off on parts (not being one of the 'higher-ups' himself) and Bungie was able to take advantage of that incorrectness to discredit him. I wouldn't expect anything else from a company in this situation. Though I hope we eventually get clarification like we did with the video put out describing the troubles with H2.

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I doubt we'll get a full disclosure ViDoc like we did with Halo 2. This hits home too hard and reveals some nasty stuff at the upper levels of Bungie.

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While Destiny was planned for a September 2013 release, the story was substantially revised in August 2013. That pushed the release date back to March 2014.

https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/70908920/0/0/1

I can confirm that there were sudden and abrupt changes in the development of Destiny less than a year ago. There was tension between higher ups the entire time we were developing the title due to a lack of cohesion about the vision for the game. One side wanted this huge space epic, like an MMO Mass Effect and the other side was not convinced that would sell and wanted to pare things back to more "easily accessible" standards. They were afraid too much story elements and cut scenes would drive players off. Then Joe left and everything just fell apart. By the time we were 7 months out to release, word came down that we were making massive revisions to the game's story.

These accounts line up perfectly. DeeJ claimed it was trolling...I don't know what to think at this point.

They really don't. That says the story was changed 7 months before release, but the arbitration findings say it was changed in August 2013, which is not 7 months before the actual release date or any proposed release date.
edit: August is 7 months before March >_>
He also says there were major changes less than a year ago, as of late September 2014, but the findings don't seem to indicate any major changes, with the story or otherwise, after August 2013, which is more than a year before. He could've gotten mixed up on the time or the interval (like I did) but to me, this account still isn't well-supported.

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He wasn’t fired, but his conduct was considered “unacceptable” in his performance review

Did Activision get a performance review? Did they get an "unacceptable" in their review as well? I sure hope so....

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Same. But that immigrant song... So good.

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I told you so just feels so hollow this late in the game. About all of it. I know it won't make me popular around here to say I was right about so many things over the past couple of years but hey, I'm already not popular so nothing lost.

The only thing I guess to keep in mind is that, Bungie willingly entered a partnership with Activision, so as much vitriol as you me or anyone else might feel for them helping to poison our favorite company, they willingly signed the deal with the devil.

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This whole situation is just sad and sucks.

I really hate seeing people everywhere feeling justified in Bungie-bashing and saying basically, "I called it when they announced Activision partnership!"

We still really have no idea what happened beyond this very specific instance. Everyone is all keen to blame Activision and assume they interfered with Destiny's development. We've still seen no evidence of this. They changed the music in a trailer. Publishers usually handle marketing; it's not unexpected, and it shouldn't have been unanticipated.

But the bottom line is this: it's really not our business what happened. Whether Activision interfered, or whether Bungie scrapped things and started over, or anything else, they shipped Destiny. Maybe they shipped exactly the game they wanted to make. Either you like it or you don't; that should be the end of it. There doesn't need to be blame laid at anyone's feet. If you don't like it, move on. Why can't it be that simple? What's with outrage culture that seems to be spreading everywhere?

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What's with outrage culture that seems to be spreading everywhere?

I would think that it's mostly a reaction to the perceived reduction of consumer rights and failure to meet expectations.

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I would think that it's mostly a reaction to the perceived reduction of consumer rights and failure to meet expectations.

What consumer rights have been reduced, or perceived as reduced? And it met all my expectations. It's gorgeous and fun. Good enough to warrant my time and money.

And I'm not trying to be a smart ass, or start an argument. I'm just pointing out that different people expect different things. If expectations weren't met for some people, I'd argue that it's it's the fault of warped expectations, not Bungie's fault of not doing what they promised.

And I'm legitimately curious about the consumer rights thing; if you mean in the case of Destiny specifically or gaming in general or something else entirely.

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And I'm not trying to be a smart ass, or start an argument. I'm just pointing out that different people expect different things. If expectations weren't met for some people, I'd argue that it's it's the fault of warped expectations, not Bungie's fault of not doing what they promised.

I know this can be a delicate subject, so please understand I don't say any of this from a place of disappointment or entitlement. I love the Destiny we got, but it is certainly not the Destiny we were told we'd be getting. I'm not saying it is better or worse; simply that the game we've been playing for the past year is in many ways a different game than Bungie's marketing told us we would be playing.

So I don't think it's really fair to say our expectations are our own fault; our collective expectations were largely informed by Bungy's marketing, which ended up being off-point in several ways.

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I really can't argue with that, as I was completely offline from January 2014 to October 2014, so missed the large majority of the marketing push. I really only saw the initial E3 demo in 2013 and whatever small subsequent bits we got later that year.

But from the trailers I've looked up since then, I haven't seen anything really off tone. Granted, I assume most of what people have issues with are things said in Weekly Updates and such, which I completely missed out on, so I can't comment on in any meaningful way.

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I really can't argue with that, as I was completely offline from January 2014 to October 2014, so missed the large majority of the marketing push. I really only saw the initial E3 demo in 2013 and whatever small subsequent bits we got later that year.

But from the trailers I've looked up since then, I haven't seen anything really off tone. Granted, I assume most of what people have issues with are things said in Weekly Updates and such, which I completely missed out on, so I can't comment on in any meaningful way.

There were some very specific things Bungie talked about in the lead up to launch that ended up being quite far off from the shipping game. I'm thinking specifically of the way Gear acquisition would work. Bungie told us that we'd be able to ask someone "hey, where did you get that awesome gun?" And they'd reply "well first you go here and fight this thing, then you go here... etc". They pushed the idea that weapons would have specific stories behind earning them. As we know, that really isn't the case at all (aside from 1 or 2 weapons). The story is just "I bought it" or "I played 300 nightfall strikes until it dropped".

Again, I'm not complaining, just pointing out a fairly meaningful difference between what we were told to expect and what we got.

The other area that I think blindsided people was the story. It's difficult to pin story-related expectations on Bungie beyond the fact that most of us have played at least some of the Halo games and were therefore expecting something similar in depth and execution. I think many people were expecting a grand, galaxy-spanning space opera. I think Destiny aimed to deliver that, but just failed to meet most players' expectations of quality in that department.

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Dude, my Hawkmoon has a crazy story behind it. Ask me how I got it!

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I really can't argue with that, as I was completely offline from January 2014 to October 2014, so missed the large majority of the marketing push. I really only saw the initial E3 demo in 2013 and whatever small subsequent bits we got later that year.

But from the trailers I've looked up since then, I haven't seen anything really off tone. Granted, I assume most of what people have issues with are things said in Weekly Updates and such, which I completely missed out on, so I can't comment on in any meaningful way.

There were some very specific things Bungie talked about in the lead up to launch that ended up being quite far off from the shipping game. I'm thinking specifically of the way Gear acquisition would work. Bungie told us that we'd be able to ask someone "hey, where did you get that awesome gun?" And they'd reply "well first you go here and fight this thing, then you go here... etc". They pushed the idea that weapons would have specific stories behind earning them. As we know, that really isn't the case at all (aside from 1 or 2 weapons). The story is just "I bought it" or "I played 300 nightfall strikes until it dropped".

Again, I'm not complaining, just pointing out a fairly meaningful difference between what we were told to expect and what we got.

Well, the fact that it was true in some cases gives Bungie an out to an extent. They didn't lie. And they probably honestly believed it to be truer more often than it ended up being.

The other area that I think blindsided people was the story. It's difficult to pin story-related expectations on Bungie beyond the fact that most of us have played at least some of the Halo games and were therefore expecting something similar in depth and execution. I think many people were expecting a grand, galaxy-spanning space opera. I think Destiny aimed to deliver that, but just failed to meet most players' expectations of quality in that department.

This has to do with legacy expectations, and this is why I think DeeJ and urk had among the hardest jobs in the gaming industry leading up to Destiny's launch. Many of us complained about not being given much information about the story before launch, but we heard enough relative to how much was there. We projected the rest. (My current theory is that the ten-year narrative will surpass anything they've done before, but Destiny year 1 was focused on setting the stage.)

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Well, the fact that it was true in some cases gives Bungie an out to an extent. They didn't lie. And they probably honestly believed it to be truer more often than it ended up being.

I agree with this. I think they were mainly thinking along the lines of the VoG weapons. While no, you don't actually get them from defeating Atheon, it's close enough as to make no difference.

This has to do with legacy expectations, and this is why I think DeeJ and urk had among the hardest jobs in the gaming industry leading up to Destiny's launch. Many of us complained about not being given much information about the story before launch, but we heard enough relative to how much was there. We projected the rest. (My current theory is that the ten-year narrative will surpass anything they've done before, but Destiny year 1 was focused on setting the stage.)

I also agree with this. As I said before, being the developers of Halo definitely put a lot of expectations on Bungie and Destiny, things they never said would happen. Biggest thing that comes to my mind is the absence of Forge or Theater, which it seems like many folks expected just because they did it in Halo.

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Biggest thing that comes to my mind is the absence of Forge or Theater, which it seems like many folks expected just because they did it in Halo.

Many folks hoped (and continue to!).

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Many folks hoped (and continue to!).

Oh, I do too. Forge doesn't matter to me so much, but I'd love Theater. I'm just saying that Bungie never so much as hinted at those features, as far as I know, but many (some?) people still took it as a given that we'd have some form of those features.

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This whole situation is just sad and sucks.

I really hate seeing people everywhere feeling justified in Bungie-bashing and saying basically, "I called it when they announced Activision partnership!"

We still really have no idea what happened beyond this very specific instance. Everyone is all keen to blame Activision and assume they interfered with Destiny's development. We've still seen no evidence of this. They changed the music in a trailer. Publishers usually handle marketing; it's not unexpected, and it shouldn't have been unanticipated.

But the bottom line is this: it's really not our business what happened. Whether Activision interfered, or whether Bungie scrapped things and started over, or anything else, they shipped Destiny. Maybe they shipped exactly the game they wanted to make. Either you like it or you don't; that should be the end of it. There doesn't need to be blame laid at anyone's feet. If you don't like it, move on. Why can't it be that simple? What's with outrage culture that seems to be spreading everywhere?

I think it's always been around, but now it's both technologically easy and socially acceptable to make your outrage heard by everyone willing to pay attention for a minute.
I contest the idea that we shouldn't talk about it though. It's not strictly our business but it doesn't need to be private either, and labeling a topic as out-of-bounds makes me nervous.

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I think it's always been around, but now it's both technologically easy and socially acceptable to make your outrage heard by everyone willing to pay attention for a minute.

And it's equally as easy to find out about things that the vast majority of people never would have heard about before the Internet. A number of the classics of video games from the fledgling beginnings of the industry were flat out copied from competitors, something that people would be very angry about today, but was not even noticed at the time.

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I think it's always been around, but now it's both technologically easy and socially acceptable to make your outrage heard by everyone willing to pay attention for a minute.
I contest the idea that we shouldn't talk about it though. It's not strictly our business but it doesn't need to be private either, and labeling a topic as out-of-bounds makes me nervous.

I'm not saying it can't or shouldn't be discussed necessarily. I just think it should be acknowledged that it's not our business to know anything about how their game was developed. They don't answer to us. People are going crazy everywhere, blaming Activision for everything, where I see basically zero evidence to support this. They're upholding this ruling as proof, but it proves nothing about anything, other than Bungie illegally stripped Marty of his company stock. It's not relevant to anything else in the development of Destiny; it's doesn't show Activision interference or some sort of Bungie cultural shift to please their Activision overlords. It's one very specific instance that we still know next to nothing about.

I'm just tired of seeing people be so toxic about the whole thing. Mostly other places around the web, but it happens here too. If you didn't like the game, that's not Bungie's fault. It's not like they set out and intentionally said, you know what, that one guy on the internet would really like this feature . . . fuck that guy, we're not doing it! Just acknowledge that the game isn't for you, and go play something else.

And I'm in no way aiming any of that specifically at you, General Vagueness. Just at the situation in general.

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Are we getting outraged about people's outrage now?

Lets not confuse being critical of decisions Bungie made as a company with bashing Bungie itself. It's the same as with human beings. I can be critical of something someone does without being critical of the person themself. I'm not sure that being critical of Bungie's partnership with Activision really constitutes Bungie bashing. If people were Bungie bashing they would probably say something like "Bungie are fucking stupid and they suck".

I actually imagine a lot of the angst over how things have played out comes from a place of caring about Bungie and their work because we feel some kind of connection to them, for whatever reason.

Also, I kind of feel like I am allowed to complain about a companies product, even if it is ultimately futile. If you think it's stupid for people to complain on the internet then just don't care. I don't see why you would care unless you were somehow personally distressed by the current hullabaloo.

Also, this is a gathering place for people to talk about things relating to Destiny/Bungie. Just saying.

Also I feel like I kind of can complain about something I purchased, particularly if I feel like I was mislead in making that purchase. It's a little authoritarian to say that people aren't allowed to express displeasure about things wouldn't you say?

Bungie, if you actually are reading this, which I doubt (though Deej might who knows), I want you to know that I don't hate you, I don't think you're bad people, and I have spent many enjoyable hours playing your creative works. I'm just not thrilled with how things have played out with your most recent product, and I feel like maybe there were some decisions made that were detrimental to the ultimate success of the product. I am a little bit aggravated because I feel like I was mislead about the game leading up to my purchase, but I'm willing to concede that that might be less about deliberate deception and more about a late stage reworking of the product.

And everything I just wrote was total bollocks because Bungie have better things to do than worry about what I have to say about anything. I doubt most of the people on this board care what I have to say about all of this. But it is nice that I'm at least permitted to say it.

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Are we getting outraged about people's outrage now?

Only in the sense that it mostly seems petty and childish. It's not Bungie's fault someone didn't like their game. Maybe the game simply isn't for them. I thought Bioshock Infinite was just awful. I wasn't pissed at Irrational Games for making a game I didn't like. Instead, I realize it just wasn't designed for me specifically. I stopped playing it and moved on to something else.

Lets not confuse being critical of decisions Bungie made as a company with bashing Bungie itself. It's the same as with human beings. I can be critical of something someone does without being critical of the person themself. I'm not sure that being critical of Bungie's partnership with Activision really constitutes Bungie bashing. If people were Bungie bashing they would probably say something like "Bungie are fucking stupid and they suck".

I actually think it is a form of Bungie bashing for most people. It's basically saying that Bungie is stupid and can't make decisions on what's good for their company because clearly they can't handle it and partner with Activision. Like I said before, they picked the publisher that best fit their needs. It's not something we get to decide. We can judge, sure, and the argument can be made that it wasn't a good fit. We'll never know the truth to that, though. I'd say it worked out alright. Destiny is great and a lot of fun; I'd say it worked.

But it is nice that I'm at least permitted to say it.

Again, I don't think anyone shouldn't be allowed to discuss it. It just seems like it's a subject that breeds a lot of toxicity, and it's not like the internet needs any more of that.

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Just ignore the toxicity then, if that's how you view all of this. You're making a decision to engage with it, and if it's troubling you, then just don't engage. You're happy with Destiny, so just be happy and be troubled not by what us random Johnnies think or say.

Also, I feel like I'm having a discussion about parenting, except its about a corporation.

"You don't trust me to make my own decisions! I hate you!" :p

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Just ignore the toxicity then, if that's how you view all of this. You're making a decision to engage with it, and if it's troubling you, then just don't engage. You're happy with Destiny, so just be happy and be troubled not by what us random Johnnies think or say.

As I said, it's mostly pertaining to other places on the web. I try not to read comments on Destiny articles anywhere, as they're mainly just awful.

It's not so bad here, but it does still happen a bit. And that's okay. Some folks are disappointed, and I can even understand wanting to understand why Destiny is the way it is, to further judge whether continued engagement is warranted.

But it's just a little sad to me that folks like Leviathan want to disengage because of it. It's something that should never happen here, but it keeps happening more and more. And it's a damn shame.

And it seems like it's mostly because some folks can't just let things go. I wasn't around for the launch of Destiny or the first six to seven months of the game. I started playing and hanging out here around a month before HoW dropped. It's been a year now since Destiny launched, at what point does the whole "Bungie lied to us!" mentality go away, or at least hit the sidelines?

As has been said before multiple times, it makes folks who actually enjoy Destiny disengage because they feel like they can't say anything without being attacked, even if it's only subtly, or made to feel like an idiot for enjoying Destiny as it is.

And look, I'm not pointing fingers at you or anyone else here, I'm not trying to start arguments or make anyone feel bad or attack anyone for anything. It's just a general pervasive negativity that is exhausting past a certain point. We're all here because we like Bungie and/or Destiny, and discussing the faults of either are completely okay. It's just that those discussions seem to happen way more often and with much more vigor than the positive ones.

I'm not great at conveying things through words, so it's hard for me to not come off like I'm scolding people or something like that. I enjoy having discussions, and I'm not saying that those that want to discuss this situation or any others are wrong. What sparked this whole subthread is just that people are using this story as "proof" for whatever predetermined conceptions they already had, when it ultimately proves nothing, and that bothers me. But you're right, I can't change that, so why engage at all?

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Yeah, I feel you man. There's a lot of passion and energy I think in the discussions these days and it can be exhausting.

One thing I will say regarding the whole Activision meddling thing is that... It's not definitive proof that they are screwing everything up behind the scenes, but it is evidence of at least one occasion where Activision did meddle in a way that Bungie employees felt was inappropriate or unexpected (remember that Ryan actually did side with Marty about Activision's overreach). Honestly reading it it seems like Activision just came in and did a switcheroo on Bungie without telling them it was going to happen or anything. Pretty crappy thing to do even if it was just a press reveal.

So saying that nothing was proved isn't really accurate, I think it's a little more grey than that. Did it prove some deep involvement by Activision trying to direct and control aspects of the game? No, but it did show at least one instance where they steamrolled what Bungie wanted to do and did their own thing. So it doesn't exactly take an overactive imagination to suspect that they may have done similar things in other areas of development.

Activision has a reputation, and they didn't get it because they've left wonderful feelings and experiences wherever they go. I think it's pretty normal to not want your favorite developer to become entangled with an entity with a track record like Activision, and I think that concern and worry is what drives a lot of the anti-Activision sentiment.

I'll add at the end, since I know there are people on the board who have some connection to Activision, I'm sure there are wonderful people there who work hard and just want to make kick ass games. It's more the executives (think Bobby Kotick) who are worrisome.

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Yeah, I feel you man. There's a lot of passion and energy I think in the discussions these days and it can be exhausting.

One thing I will say regarding the whole Activision meddling thing is that... It's not definitive proof that they are screwing everything up behind the scenes, but it is evidence of at least one occasion where Activision did meddle in a way that Bungie employees felt was inappropriate or unexpected (remember that Ryan actually did side with Marty about Activision's overreach). Honestly reading it it seems like Activision just came in and did a switcheroo on Bungie without telling them it was going to happen or anything. Pretty crappy thing to do even if it was just a press reveal.

Well it's not even that, we don't know what the final contract was like, but in the version that came out from the Infinity Ward case Activision got control of the marketing (maybe not all control but that's how I seem to remember it), and a bunch of people here have said that's par for the course when you're dealing with a publisher. No one who knows how this works or what the agreement was like (or what Activision is like, if you really think they're that bad) should have been surprised, least of all Marty who was part of the leadership when the deal was made.
Also they were given advance notice, otherwise they couldn't have tried to get Activision to change their minds.
I will say I think they should've listened to Bungie and Marty because it's their universe and their game and E3 is a big deal and creative types tend to get pissy when you remove what they created (and people in general).
Speaking of the Infinity Ward case, I think it's worth remembering Bungie entered into talks with Activision (although they probably didn't finalize them) before that whole mess became public.

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I interpreted the Marty/Ryan protest as an after the fact thing, if I was reading what happened correctly but maybe not.

And as far as Marty being least of all surprised by what happened, that's kind of my point, he apparently was surprised, and not only was he surprised but one of Bungie's head honchos agreed with him regarding the situation. I think that's pretty telling. Whether they felt their was a contractual breach occurring or perhaps they had a verbal agreement regarding how marketing was going to be handled for that E3 event, something happened that Marty and Ryan either weren't expecting, didn't agree with, or both.

The Infinity Ward thing is one of the more egregious examples of Activision in action, but I think even more enlightening is looking up some Bobby Kotick quotes. Kotick is the exec who was on site at Bungie when the journalists first got invited to see the game, and then didn't get to see the game in one of the more bizarre PR maneuvers in recent memory.

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Fans of bungie don't want to go to an anti bungie website to talk about their disappointments.

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Cheeky and I like your humor, but Bungie.net is the corporate page, not a fansite ;).

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But the bottom line is this: it's really not our business what happened. Whether Activision interfered, or whether Bungie scrapped things and started over, or anything else, they shipped Destiny. Maybe they shipped exactly the game they wanted to make. Either you like it or you don't; that should be the end of it. There doesn't need to be blame laid at anyone's feet. If you don't like it, move on. Why can't it be that simple?

Destiny is a good game. I think we all agree on that. I also think that most of us agree that it could have been better. Some of us think that it was going to be better - but some weird stuff happened at Bungie and things got changed. There is evidence to support this.

I will tell you that I played Destiny, or a version of it, 18 months before it was released. I don't remember it that well, in part because while I was twiddling thumbsticks in Bellevue, my mother was in Seattle having open heart surgery. I was in a bit of a fog that day.

When I played the real thing in September, I was disappointed. It did not have the depth that I expected - not even close. Many people feel the same and they want to know why. I would think that a Destiny forum would be the perfect place for such discussion.

As far as it not being our business what happened... why shouldn't it be our business? We are the ones paying for the game, keeping the community active and investing hundreds of hours of our time into this game. Bungie has said countless times that they do listen to their community, that they value this community. I think those facts give us permission to gripe about stupid things that they did. It is feedback. It won't change what has already happened but it may affect what happens in the future. If we all adopted the "take it or leave it" attitude, Destiny would not be the same game it is now.

When Bungie tells us that they don't want to hear what we have to say, that is when I'll move on.

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If we all adopted the "take it or leave it" attitude, Destiny would not be the same game it is now.

Absolutely. People who think they are defending Bungie are doing Bungie no favours because they are attempting to quash the feedback that Bungie says it wants.

They are NOT defending Bungie - they are defending their own feelings.

When Bungie tells us that they don't want to hear what we have to say, that is when I'll move on.

Fortunately they would never make that mistake. (uh, probably)

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If we all adopted the "take it or leave it" attitude, Destiny would not be the same game it is now.

Absolutely. People who think they are defending Bungie are doing Bungie no favours because they are attempting to quash the feedback that Bungie says it wants.

I'd just like to point out that there is a vast gulf between a 'take it or leave it' attitude, and someone defending Bungie. Your conflation of the two implies that Bungie is ALWAYS wrong, and defending them is simply ignoring reality. Sometimes, people attack them unfairly - defending them is not quashing feedback, it's setting the record straight.

(Please note I'm not saying, or even implying, that Bungie can do no wrong and ALL defense is the right thing. I'm simply saying you're taking a pretty black-and-white view of a really grey situation.)

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I'd just like to point out that there is a vast gulf between a 'take it or leave it' attitude, and someone defending Bungie.

This is very true. However...

Your conflation of the two implies that Bungie is ALWAYS wrong, and defending them is simply ignoring reality.

This is not. Who ever said Bungie is ALWAYS wrong?

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I'd just like to point out that there is a vast gulf between a 'take it or leave it' attitude, and someone defending Bungie.

This is very true. However...

Your conflation of the two implies that Bungie is ALWAYS wrong, and defending them is simply ignoring reality.

This is not. Who ever said Bungie is ALWAYS wrong?

As my post stated, I believe that scarab's wording implied it.

He said:

People who think they are defending Bungie are doing Bungie no favours because they are attempting to quash the feedback that Bungie says it wants.

I occasionally defend Bungie - and I don't think that I'm attempting to squash feedback Bungie says it wants. When I defend them, it's because I think they've been characterized unfairly, and I'm trying to set the record straight. Scarab's generalization doesn't allow for that possibility, and I wanted to point that out.

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My post was not necessarily only directed at the reaction to this story. It's the culmination of a year's worth of negativity.

"Move on" means it's been a year since Destiny launched. At some point folks just have to realize that maybe Destiny isn't the game for them. If it's a year later, and you still don't enjoy the game, realize it's not going to change, and stop using every opportunity available to bitch about the game and Bungie and how you feel you're owed something for troubles.

I feel like at this point we basically know the type of game Destiny is. If you don't like it, fine, but it's not likely to drastically change, so move on and play something else if it's not enjoyable for you.

Criticism is one thing, but from most folks it's just hateful at this point, and that's beneficial for no one.

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My post was not necessarily only directed at the reaction to this story. It's the culmination of a year's worth of negativity.

"Move on" means it's been a year since Destiny launched. At some point folks just have to realize that maybe Destiny isn't the game for them. If it's a year later, and you still don't enjoy the game, realize it's not going to change, and stop using every opportunity available to bitch about the game and Bungie and how you feel you're owed something for troubles.

I feel like at this point we basically know the type of game Destiny is. If you don't like it, fine, but it's not likely to drastically change, so move on and play something else if it's not enjoyable for you.

I would advise people to try The Taken King first because it sounds like a lot of what they wanted is being delivered with that. I don't think they're going to have another change this big to how the game is put together so if that doesn't do it for you, yeah, you should probably head for greener pastures.

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Sounds like it was an "enjoyable experience" for all invoked. Ugh. Sounds to me like Marty was doing "the right thing" and Activision got all pissy about it. In fact sounds like a game mode I played once in halo 3, everyone only had sentinel beams. Everybody pissing all over everyone else, and not much fun.

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Having had time to process this, these are my thoughts. This is a considerably more biased reaction than my initial one, so... I don't know, prepare, I guess.

Activision is poison, and Bungie's leadership is obviously not much better since 1) they chose to partner with them in the first place and 2) tried to steal Marty's stock options after termination.

Don't forget about Joseph Staten leaving Bungie in September 2013. This article confirms that the story changed substantially in August 2013, which pretty much confirms that Staten left because Activision screwed up Destiny entirely. Looks like Joe and Marty both left because they were fed up with Activision.

Oh, and does anyone remember 404Architect from a year ago? Remember how many people didn't believe him, and yet everything he posted has pretty much been legitimized? Remember DeeJ trying to discredit him? Lawd, this company has no shame. Here's a link to the Reddit thread from almost a year ago.

What the hell happened to you, Bungie?

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Having had time to process this, these are my thoughts. This is a considerably more biased reaction than my initial one, so... I don't know, prepare, I guess.

Activision is poison, and Bungie's leadership is obviously not much better since 1) they chose to partner with them in the first place and 2) tried to steal Marty's stock options after termination.

Don't forget about Joseph Staten leaving Bungie in September 2013. This article confirms that the story changed substantially in August 2013, which pretty much confirms that Staten left because Activision screwed up Destiny entirely. Looks like Joe and Marty both left because they were fed up with Activision.

You and I have very different definitions of "confirm". Maybe Joe was the one who revised the story and once complete in his role, left for a great job offer? Who knows? That sort of thing happens daily in the gaming industry. People finish projects and then switch gears for a new one. Some 343i employees joined Bungie after Halo 4. Does that imply another sordid affair is it just common industry practice? You also failed to mention he left Bungie with a positive and hopeful note.

Oh, and does anyone remember 404Architect from a year ago? Remember how many people didn't believe him, and yet everything he posted has pretty much been legitimized? Remember DeeJ trying to discredit him? Lawd, this company has no shame. Here's a link to the Reddit thread from almost a year ago.

If you read above, you can see how the timelines are still off.

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Having had time to process this, these are my thoughts. This is a considerably more biased reaction than my initial one, so... I don't know, prepare, I guess.

Activision is poison, and Bungie's leadership is obviously not much better since 1) they chose to partner with them in the first place and 2) tried to steal Marty's stock options after termination.

Don't forget about Joseph Staten leaving Bungie in September 2013. This article confirms that the story changed substantially in August 2013, which pretty much confirms that Staten left because Activision screwed up Destiny entirely.

No it doesn't you conclusion-jumping biased asshole. There is no indication that Activision was behind the rewrite or that it had anything to do with Joe Staten leaving.
It still boggles my mind how everyone just assumes one of many reasons for the story being the way it is. It's like people think Joe Staten is some kind of genius writer who couldn't have messed up a story, and he's too principled to stay with people making a bad story or a company being pushed around by another company, but not so principled he'd stay around to try to make sure the story he helped create actually came out good and fleshed out. I like some things he wrote too but geez.
The story could be lackluster and too thin because he left. He could've left because it was bad and it was his fault. The two things could be completely unconnected, because he was one writer among several.

Oh, and does anyone remember 404Architect from a year ago? Remember how many people didn't believe him, and yet everything he posted has pretty much been legitimized?

No it hasn't you insufferable ass-basket. Other than the story being messed with 7 months before release (which is only accurate if he was talking about the proposed March 2014 release) there's nothing that's been confirmed, it all looks like stabs in the dark based on what we got and people's reaction to it.

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This is a considerably more biased reaction than my initial one

Come on, man, I gave it to you right there.

I know my reaction is biased, and I know I'm jumping to conclusions. I already gave a neutral fact-based reaction. This is my biased intuition-based reaction.

So yes, I'm reading between the lines a little bit. Maybe "confirmation" was a strong word, so that's my bad, but my point still stands. There has clearly been a shift within Bungie. The writing is on the wall, and while some of the details may be in question, we now have a general idea of what really happened and of the dynamics that led to this point.

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This is a considerably more biased reaction than my initial one

Come on, man, I gave it to you right there.

I know my reaction is biased, and I know I'm jumping to conclusions. I already gave a neutral fact-based reaction. This is my biased intuition-based reaction.

So yes, I'm reading between the lines a little bit. Maybe "confirmation" was a strong word, so that's my bad, but my point still stands. There has clearly been a shift within Bungie. The writing is on the wall, and while some of the details may be in question, we now have a general idea of what really happened and of the dynamics that led to this point.

I'd say most of the details are still in question. That doesn't stop people from creating narratives like you're doing.

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It's called reading between the lines and trusting your intuition.

Do you really need every little thing handed to you before you come to a judgment?

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https://twitter.com/32nds/status/640183358224515072

Sheesh. I wonder if Joseph Staten was one of them? Pure random speculation. Maybe he just left on his own after the story went to hell. Or maybe he was just done regardless of all these things. But it makes one wonder. Very unfortunate situation all around.

Edit: Vic Deleon has a reply in there, too.

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Oh shit, the plot thickens.

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The facade continues to crumble. I'm genuinely curious how much it's going to take for people to get their heads out of the sand on all of this. If you like Destiny go ahead and play it, knock yourself out but don't deny that shit for Bungie as a company has been getting whack for a while, and is only getting worse.

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There are lots of good hard working developers at Bungie. I can have issues with individuals or even the way upper management works, but the majority of employees just want to make kick ass games. Games I like. So yeah I'm gonna keep supporting them.

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There are lots of good hard working developers at Bungie. I can have issues with individuals or even the way upper management works, but the majority of employees just want to make kick ass games. Games I like. So yeah I'm gonna keep supporting them.

I agree and I disagree.

There are lots of good hard working developers at Bungie. Absolutely. I'm sure the majority of the people there are not involved in any of this crap.

However, Bungie is a business. Unfortunately, their direction, their relationship with the public, and their cooperation with other companies is all shaped and decided by upper management. If you're unhappy with the direction they've chosen to take, the only thing you can do to change it is to stop supporting them.

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However, Bungie is a business. Unfortunately, their direction, their relationship with the public, andand their cooperation with other companies is all shaped and decided by upper management.
If YOU are unhappy with the direction they've chosen to take, the only thing YOU can do to change it is to stop supporting them.

This is one of those look in the mirror moments. For this all revolves around YOU

YOU have clearly demonstrated in the past that YOU are unhappy with the direction they have chosen to take with the game and as a company.

By posting here, whether you think your tone is positive or negative, whether you think your posts are helpful or UN-helpful, whether you think you are right or wrong, whether you think the Queen of England reads this forums or not
By actively posting here YOU are actively supporting the company. You can't change it by posting something here.

The ONLY thing you can do to change it is to stop supporting them.

So please, take your own advice and stop posting here.

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It's not like they get paid per post, or anything.

...

Do they?

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It's not like they get paid per post, or anything.

...

Do they?

No, but WE do. Just last year we finally installed the indoor pool. It's only about a foot wide but it flushes!

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It's not like they get paid per post, or anything.

...

Do they?

No, but WE do. Just last year we finally installed the indoor pool. It's only about a foot wide but it flushes!

Don't forget about the 7% we give to Bungie though! They don't even spend it, they just make Claude watch them burn it!

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There are lots of good hard working developers at Bungie. I can have issues with individuals or even the way upper management works, but the majority of employees just want to make kick ass games. Games I like. So yeah I'm gonna keep supporting them.

Alex Seropian left more than a decade ago because he wasn't digging the direction - was I supposed to hate everyone who remained back then?

Lorraine McLees, Jason Jones, Lars Bakken, Tyson Green, Derek Carrol, Sage Merill, Luke Smith, Jesse van Dijk, Evil Otto, Aged Tinman, Achronos, Veegie, not to mention Urk and Deej, are all people who I respect and whose work I've enjoyed for years or, for some, more than a decade. I've even had the chance to meet and talk to a couple of them.

They still work at Bungie. I'm not going to immediately assume they're now all evil co-conspirators because of this sad event.

Even those who have left Bungie don't all despise it now or something. Scrolling through Marcus Lehto's recent tweets you'll see that even despite change and turnover, things can still be optimistic.

So here's a crazy idea - what if this ruling isn't somehow proof Bungie has been corrupted forevermore but actually a good thing for the company? Now that the crack in the foundation has been exposed and analyzed, why can't they learn from it? How do we know some people at Bungie don't feel shitty for what happened and will remember that going forward?

So that's why I'm not going to sort all of this affair into organized boxes and put it up on a shelf so I can have a neat opinion. I'd rather feel sad, bummed out, or hopeful and a heap of other feelings and maintain a question mark.

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Alex Seropian left more than a decade ago because he wasn't digging the direction - was I supposed to hate everyone who remained back then?

Lorraine McLees, Jason Jones, Lars Bakken, Tyson Green, Derek Carrol, Sage Merill, Luke Smith, Jesse van Dijk, Evil Otto, Aged Tinman, Achronos, Veegie, not to mention Urk and Deej, are all people who I respect and whose work I've enjoyed for years or, for some, more than a decade. I've even had the chance to meet and talk to a couple of them.

They still work at Bungie. I'm not going to immediately assume they're now all evil co-conspirators because of this sad event.

But that's a straw man. Nobody is saying that they are.

How do we know some people at Bungie don't feel shitty for what happened and will remember that going forward?

There are probably (almost certainly) people at Bungie that do feel this way, but it's not really our concern as the customer. Bungie is a business. What matters is the impact their decisions have on the customer.

Plus, let's put this into a little bit of perspective. Bungie stole property from Marty. That is a crime. They deserve to catch shit for it.

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Plus, let's put this into a little bit of perspective. Bungie stole property from Marty. That is a crime. They deserve to catch shit for it.

And... they did. Nobody here is arguing they shouldn't have...

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But that's a straw man. Nobody is saying that they are.

My point was mostly in reply to this:

The facade continues to crumble. I'm genuinely curious how much it's going to take for people to get their heads out of the sand on all of this. If you like Destiny go ahead and play it, knock yourself out but don't deny that shit for Bungie as a company has been getting whack for a while, and is only getting worse.

My point was that a company is made up of people, of individuals. Just because the company did a shitty thing doesn't mean the whole machine is corrupted. I believe it is too simple to say "Bungie is whack" since it is made up of a huge range of people, many of whom do work I still love and am inspired by.

There are probably (almost certainly) people at Bungie that do feel this way, but it's not really our concern as the customer. Bungie is a business. What matters is the impact their decisions have on the customer.

So you're saying to ignore what they've done? In that respect, I'm a happy customer.

Plus, let's put this into a little bit of perspective. Bungie stole property from Marty. That is a crime. They deserve to catch shit for it.

I never said they shouldn't. And obviously, there was some question to whether it was a crime, hence an arbitrator was involved.

But I think Bungie did do something shitty. I think everyone involved probably did shitty things in a challenging situation.

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So here's a crazy idea - what if this ruling isn't somehow proof Bungie has been corrupted forevermore but actually a good thing for the company? Now that the crack in the foundation has been exposed and analyzed, why can't they learn from it? How do we know some people at Bungie don't feel shitty for what happened and will remember that going forward?

Cat's out of the bag. Genie's out of the bottle. Toothpaste has been squeezed. Etc etc.

There's no going back. Only forward. You either dig the direction and go with the flow, or you don't and you make like a tree.

I'm still here playing Bungie games 21 years after I started. That kind of says it all.

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Don't have to go with the flow or make like a tree, you can choose to walk a new path.

I'm still here playing Bungie games 21 years after I started. That kind of says it all.

Yep, it sure does.

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It's probably worth noting that Jaime co-founded HighWire Games with Marty over the summer, so he's not exactly an impartial party here.

Vic Deleon works for HighWire Games as well.

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A few thoughts about Marty:

Given that Marty's firing cannot be undone, this is probably the best possible outcome. I'm happy for Marty. Bungie and Marty will be okay, and we can all move on.

I finally get the joke I heard someone make last week about keeping Marty away from Twitter.

I'm excited to see what comes from Marty and his fantastic new team.

I understand Marty's sensitivity about the music in the trailer given that one of the defining moments of his career was the impact his music made in a three-minute commercial (the Macworld demo).

A few thoughts about business:

Humans are, um, deeply flawed, and so are their institutions.

The higher the stakes and the larger the institution, the more these flaws are magnified.

In most business enterprises, no one is irreplaceable. If you think you are, or, as is often the case, if other people think you think you are, your career is in a special danger zone.

The good graces of management are worth their weight in gold.

Especially where beauracracies are concerned, once the wheel starts turning against you, it's extremely difficult to change the direction.

Gossip is poison. (Applies to more than business, obviously.)

These conflicts are almost always, at root, personal. We don't know what we don't know, and we may never know. What we now know are only the issues that had legal ramifications.

A few thoughts about Bungie:

Bungie lost its way ...

when they started supporting Windows.

when they botched Oni.

when they shook hands with that devil, Microsoft.

when they expected us to play an FPS without a keyboard and mouse.

when they botched the ending of Halo 2, overpriced ODST, and retconned Reach.

when they shook hands with that devil, Activision.

when they added RNG elements to their game.

when so-and-so left.

And yet, they have continued to give me a lot of joy through all of this. When they stop doing that for me personally, I won't be posting here.

A few thoughts about the stories we tell:

Being fired from a company you care about is very much like a romantic breakup. The pain runs deep and the stories around it necessarily serve a psychological need. I'm not saying that anyone's story is inaccurate. I'm saying it's possible for truths that seem to be in conflict to both be accurate.

From reliable sources I've heard things about Bungie's past that, taken at face value, were upsetting, disturbing, and disappointing. Given what I know about how the sausage is made at a big software company, though, nothing I've heard was surprising.

From reliable sources I heard things about the future of Destiny that were tremendously inspiring.

I wish Marty the best. Same for the folks at Bungie.

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Yes, Kermit's an old fart who lacks the passion of youth... but almost everything he writes in this post is healthy. (And I agree with all of it.)

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From reliable sources I heard things about the future of Destiny that were tremendously inspiring.

So you're saying you have… 'Hope for the Future"?

:-p

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From reliable sources I heard things about the future of Destiny that were tremendously inspiring.

So you're saying you have… 'Hope for the Future"?

:-p

Indeed! Without Sir Paul swanning around (though it pains me to say it).

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Indeed! Without Sir Paul swanning around (though it pains me to say it).

The song may be cheesy, but I've never understood why so many people don't seem to like it. At the very least, the chord structure and progression is brilliant. I enjoy that song. Now, that music video has got to go.

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Indeed! Without Sir Paul swanning around (though it pains me to say it).

The song may be cheesy, but I've never understood why so many people don't seem to like it. At the very least, the chord structure and progression is brilliant. I enjoy that song. Now, that music video has got to go.

It's definitely not an ear-sore, and the musical side of it is great. I think the lyrics just make it feel like an 80's James Bond theme song.

And once you've seen the video... it's hard to get it out of your head. :)

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Indeed! Without Sir Paul swanning around (though it pains me to say it).

The song may be cheesy, but I've never understood why so many people don't seem to like it. At the very least, the chord structure and progression is brilliant. I enjoy that song. Now, that music video has got to go.

I like cheesy stuff and I like Hope for the Future, but I'd like it significantly more if it was less repetitive. I'm not even sure what's the chorus and what's the rest. Some different metaphors or just varied words would be great.

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So has Bungie given any comment on this yet?

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http://www.scribd.com/doc/280355277/Bungie-Response-to-Marty-O-Donnell

This looks like basically them saying "alright, let's do this" and alleging Marty and his lawyer are dragging their feet, and stressing they weren't found to have violated the contract and saying Marty is trying to smear them.
Also there's a comment at the bottom that is (at least supposedly?) from Jaime Griesemer saying, "And we want all our T-Shirts back, too! Love, -Bungie".

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Marty O’Donnell wins epic legal fight with former bosses (Gaming)

I know people will pick sides (and have already done so)...

I know people will pick sides (and have already done so)...

I know people will pick sides (and have already done so)...

I know people will pick sides (and have already done so)...

I know people will pick sides (and have already done so)...

I know people will pick sides (and have already done so)...

I know people will pick sides (and have already done so)...

I know people will pick sides (and have already done so)...

I know people will pick sides (and have already done so)...

I know people will pick sides (and have already done so)...

I know people will pick sides (and have already done so)...

I know people will pick sides (and have already done so)...

I know people will pick sides (and have already done so)...

I know people will pick sides (and have already done so)...

I know people will pick sides (and have already done so)...

I know people will pick sides (and have already done so)...

+1

Divorce? You mean we get two Christmases!

Yeah.

You made your point fine.

I know people will pick sides (and have already done so)...

I know people will pick sides (and have already done so)...

I know people will pick sides (and have already done so)...

I know people will pick sides (and have already done so)...

Well, I never thought we'd find out what happened this quick

Wow

tl;dr = fucking Activision, bad times Marty

I said explicitly that Marty behaved unprofessionally

Wow

Wow

Wow

Wow

Wow

Good point.

Wow

Wow

Wow

Wow

Wow

+1

Wow

Wow

Wow

Wow

Wow

Poor Bungie

We get to experience the great publisher for another 9 years

Poor Bungie

Poor Bungie

Poor Bungie

Is there something wrong with Halo 2?

+1

+2

C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!

C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!

C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!

Poor reading comprehension?

Poor reading comprehension?

Poor reading comprehension?

Poor reading comprehension?

Why would a simple statement of truth need nuance?

Why would a simple statement of truth need nuance?

or throw a wobbly

Get bent.

#shotsfired

Poking holes in a strawman isn't shotsfired.

Poking holes in a strawman isn't shotsfired.

Calm down. All of you.

Calm down. All of you.

Calm down. All of you.

Calm down. All of you.

Calm down. All of you.

Calm down. All of you.

Calm down. All of you.

Missed my point completely

Missed my point completely

Missed my point completely

Missed my point completely