https://www.facebook.com/notes/matty-granger/at-long-lastmy-star-wars-episode-vii-review-the-force-awakens-the-rise-o...

Mobile link:
https://m.facebook.com/notes/matty-granger/at-long-lastmy-star-wars-episode-vii-review-the-force-awakens-the-rise-of-...

Mod edit: added “real” link.

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https://m.facebook.com/notes/matty-granger/at-long-lastmy-star-wars-episode-vii-review-the-force-awakens-the-rise-of-...

Not to mention that a grand total of ZERO of those 'plot holes' are actually plot holes.

A plot hole is something that completely and totally unravels the logic and structure of the film.

It's not something that doesn't make sense. It's not something that is convenient or unbelievable. It's something that flat out contradicts the established rules of the story's universe so badly that it renders the story inert.

https://m.facebook.com/notes/matty-granger/at-long-lastmy-star-wars-episode-vii-review-the-force-awakens-the-rise-of-...

Not to mention that a grand total of ZERO of those 'plot holes' are actually plot holes.

Yeah Internet vernacular seems to be "something I didn't like" which is ridiculous.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/matty-granger/at-long-lastmy-star-wars-episode-vii-review-the-force-awakens-the-rise-o...

Thought it was a sketchy facebook rip-off site at first.

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I don't know. I also didn't agree with that Huffington Post article, but this reply makes the author look like an asshole with bad reading comprehension.

He replies to one question by making fun of the way the question is phrased, but he didn't even use the actual question. I assume he just pasted it from whatever post is circulating around Facebook, but the actual question makes sense, whereas what he posted doesn't.

This is the actual question:

30. If Finn is such a good guy that he would try to save Rey the moment he saw she was in distress, doesn't it further call into question just how in the world the order to kill civilians on Jakku was the first time he'd ever had qualms about doing something the First Order had asked him to do?

He answered the question written as:

30. If Finn is such a good guy that he would try to save Rey the moment he saw she was in distress?

That obviously makes no sense (and doesn't even begin to approach what the real question was). But Matty Granger makes fun of the original author for it. If you're going to take the be-an-asshole, tear-him-down approach, maybe you should make sure you're not misquoting something.

The whole thing turns me off. Why do people feel the need to be dicks on the internet?

I don't know. I also didn't agree with that Huffington Post article, but this reply makes the author look like an asshole with bad reading comprehension.

He replies to one question by making fun of the way the question is phrased, but he didn't even use the actual question. I assume he just pasted it from whatever post is circulating around Facebook, but the actual question makes sense, whereas what he posted doesn't.

This is the actual question:

30. If Finn is such a good guy that he would try to save Rey the moment he saw she was in distress, doesn't it further call into question just how in the world the order to kill civilians on Jakku was the first time he'd ever had qualms about doing something the First Order had asked him to do?

He answered the question written as:

30. If Finn is such a good guy that he would try to save Rey the moment he saw she was in distress?

That obviously makes no sense (and doesn't even begin to approach what the real question was). But Matty Granger makes fun of the original author for it. If you're going to take the be-an-asshole, tear-him-down approach, maybe you should make sure you're not misquoting something.

The whole thing turns me off. Why do people feel the need to be dicks on the internet?

Good point. I didn't realize he had paraphrased the questions.

Yep. Most of the items on the original list are either "I didn't like this," "something wasn't fully explained in minute detail," or "I missed a clear explanation of what was going on and confused my ignorance with actual missing information."

Relevant:
http://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=101682

- FN states he doesn't want to kill anyone and then immediately kills a whole bunch of other stormtroopers while in the tie fighter without even a second thought. (character inconsistencies may or may not fit Cody's definition of plot holes).

- FN states that he needs a pilot and can't pilot things many times throughout the film, but every single other character he meets is a pilot. Finding pilots and becoming a pilot seem like incredibly easy things, and it makes you wonder why FN can't just figure it out. (not a massive hole, but still weird enough to note).

- Princess Leia says how much she missed Han and loves Han, but there's absolutely no evidence whatsoever of that in her emotionless delivery. Okay, fine, not a plot hole, just terrible acting.

- The entire timetable of the weapon starting to fire / getting blown up by x-wings / the planet tearing itself apart / Adam Driver losing the fight / Rey carrying FN back to the Falcon / The guy who is inside the base that is already blowing up being told to go and get Adam Driver and meet the Sith Lord somewhere / the x-wings barely escaping the blast is just complete nonsense. Let's assume finding Adam Driver is trivial (as per the linked article); in the amount of time it would take for Rey to get find her way around the chasm and back to FN, and then to carry him at that unbelievably slow pace back to the Falcon (seriously there was no sense of urgency whatsoever there), and then for the Falcon to get away from the exploding planet, the X-wings that had started bugging out just as soon as Poe delivered the kill shot would have already been coming out of hyperspace at Rebel HQ.

I'll grant that this isn't as egregious as Batman climbing out of a cave in Tunisia with no ID, map, money, or idea where the nearest town is and ending up in Gotham less than 3 hours later (remember that before Batman climbed out of the cave, we saw the nuclear bomb with less than 3 hours left on its timer) having mysteriously snuck past the already established as impossible to sneak past blockade, put on his costume, and had his dehydration and malnutrition fully healed, but timetable fails really bug me in films and the end of star wars TFA was pretty poorly constructed from a timeline perspective.

I figure it is our own fault that we assume every scene is shown in chronological order. I mean, not entirely our fault, since most movies are structured that way, but still not something we should take at face value.

If we consider the tick-down scene happened several days after Bruce escapes the prison, everything makes a lot of sense (further review pending, of course), including how well-off a few of the characters seem.

The same can be applied to TFA. One can assume everything there is happening simultaneously and make a bit more sense (not to mention that a lightsaber fight usually happens a bit faster than a regular human like us should be able to perceive, so time dilation is to be expected in Force-user fights).

I figure it is our own fault that we assume every scene is shown in chronological order. I mean, not entirely our fault, since most movies are structured that way, but still not something we should take at face value.

If we consider the tick-down scene happened several days after Bruce escapes the prison, everything makes a lot of sense (further review pending, of course), including how well-off a few of the characters seem.

People always bring up this plot hole, but I've never seen a single person be right. They do NOT show the timer at 3 hours BEFORE he comes back. They also suggest quite a bit of time passing between the the bomb being put in trucks and then Bruce showing back up (weather change that implies season change, Selina has territory, conversations imply a lot of time has passed, etc.). And further this is the last we see of the bomb before Bruce shows up:

That's minutes and seconds in large numbers, so by logical conclusion that's seconds, minutes, hours, days, and then months. In addition remember that it was stated it would take about 5 months for the core to deteriorate, which means when the spec ops team shows up in Gotham and it's been "about 3 months" since the occupation starts, that still leaves them with about a month remaining (remember Bane didn't immediately free prisoners from Blackgate, so it's actually been a little longer than 3 months since the core was removed, which we have further proof of because you can see a sizable portion of the countdown circle has counted down). The time before that was when Bruce is recovering and attempts to escape the pit at least one time that we see on camera. The last indication of time remaining before Bruce escapes the pit is 23 DAYS (by Lucius to the Spec Ops team right before they die), and then when Bruce arrives there are only about 18 hours remaining. And if anyone thinks Bruce Wayne can't make it to Gotham in 2-3 weeks, even without money or Bat-gadgets, then we have nothing left to talk about.

I figure it is our own fault that we assume every scene is shown in chronological order. I mean, not entirely our fault, since most movies are structured that way, but still not something we should take at face value.

Movies which show events out of order establish that trope early on so you know to expect it when its important, or they clue you in with flashback flashes or desaturation or whatever to show it's not real time. Batman does none of this. I'll be honest though, the editing in that film sucked ballsack. It was horrendous. There is ONE establishing broll shot in the entire movie, and it's of the pit in Tunisia. I saw the thing in IMAX and I was like... "Why is this an IMAX film? There's no wide shots at all. Everything is an ECU outside of the action sequences." But I digress.

If we consider the tick-down scene happened several days after Bruce escapes the prison, everything makes a lot of sense (further review pending, of course), including how well-off a few of the characters seem.

People always bring up this plot hole, but I've never seen a single person be right. They do NOT show the timer at 3 hours BEFORE he comes back.

Hmm.. Okay, you're definitely right about that.

They also suggest quite a bit of time passing between the the bomb being put in trucks and then Bruce showing back up (weather change that implies season change, Selina has territory, conversations imply a lot of time has passed, etc.). And further this is the last we see of the bomb before Bruce shows up:

That's minutes and seconds in large numbers, so by logical conclusion that's seconds, minutes, hours, days, and then months

There is nothing logical about that conclusion. Where are you pulling hours, days, and months out of? There are (and yes, I counted because I wanted to be sure): 79 green ticks and 10 red ones in that image. Those values don't evenly come out to any sensical measurement of time.

If you extrapolate the green bars to go all the way around the dial back to the red bars, there would be about 110 (roughly 15 bars per screw hole). Including the red bars, you have 120 total bars, which IS a number that relates to time. And 31 bars have ticked away so far, with the timer displaying 57:34, which we know is minutes and seconds because the shot lasts long enough for us to see it tick down a few times... Which doesn't add up either. It doesn't make any sense any way you slice it. The production designers thought it would look cool but there's no other rationale other than to make the red lights blink later when the bomb is about to go off and batman, in less than 2 minutes, kisses the girl, says goodbye to gordon, flies the nuke 6 miles out to sea (past a bunch of army dudes who were told to kill anyone going in or out of gotham), and - presumably - miraculously escape to safety. Even if he never got on the copter (we know he did though, and we never see him dive out of it either), the thing would have to fly pretty goddamn fast (like more than 200+ mph fast with instantaneous linear acceleration) for that to work.

In addition remember that it was stated it would take about 5 months for the core to deteriorate, which means when the spec ops team shows up in Gotham and it's been "about 3 months" since the occupation starts, that still leaves them with about a month remaining (remember Bane didn't immediately free prisoners from Blackgate, so it's actually been a little longer than 3 months since the core was removed). The time before that was when Bruce is recovering and attempts to escape the pit at least one time that we see on camera. The last indication of time remaining before Bruce escapes the pit is 23 DAYS (by Lucius to the Spec Ops team right before they die), and then when Bruce arrives there are only about 18 hours remaining. And if anyone thinks Bruce Wayne can't make it to Gotham in 2-3 weeks, even without money or Bat-gadgets, then we have nothing left to talk about.

Fair point, though I also think 2000 cops underground for 5 months would grow beards, lose their tans, probably lose some weight, too, and get a little big dusty, but who am I to argue?

And, honestly, Bruce Wayne with zero money or gadgets getting back to Gotham is probably a way more exciting and interesting story than the entire rest of the film. I'd have loved to see that part.

People always bring up this plot hole, but I've never seen a single person be right. They do NOT show the timer at 3 hours BEFORE he comes back.

Hmm.. Okay, you're definitely right about that.

They also suggest quite a bit of time passing between the the bomb being put in trucks and then Bruce showing back up (weather change that implies season change, Selina has territory, conversations imply a lot of time has passed, etc.). And further this is the last we see of the bomb before Bruce shows up:

That's minutes and seconds in large numbers, so by logical conclusion that's seconds, minutes, hours, days, and then months

There is nothing logical about that conclusion. Where are you pulling hours, days, and months out of? There are (and yes, I counted because I wanted to be sure): 79 green ticks and 10 red ones in that image. Those values don't evenly come out to any sensical measurement of time.

Click on the image, see the numbers above the big numbers, those are the ones I was referring to. Those are the common denominations people refer to time on countdowns (though many skip months completely): seconds, days, hours, days, months. And with those denominations it fits with all the other times mentioned in the movie.

If you extrapolate the green bars to go all the way around the dial back to the red bars, there would be about 110 (roughly 15 bars per screw hole). Including the red bars, you have 120 total bars, which IS a number that relates to time. And 31 bars have ticked away so far, with the timer displaying 57:34, which we know is minutes and seconds because the shot lasts long enough for us to see it tick down a few times... Which doesn't add up either. It doesn't make any sense any way you slice it. The production designers thought it would look cool but there's no other rationale other than to make the red lights blink later when the bomb is about to go off and batman, in less than 2 minutes, kisses the girl, says goodbye to gordon, flies the nuke 6 miles out to sea (past a bunch of army dudes who were told to kill anyone going in or out of gotham), and - presumably - miraculously escape to safety. Even if he never got on the copter (we know he did though, and we never see him dive out of it either), the thing would have to fly pretty goddamn fast (like more than 200+ mph fast with instantaneous linear acceleration) for that to work.

See above, you're going off of the timer assuming it says 57 minutes and 34 seconds, but there are more numbers above it indicating more time is remaining, meaning the bars indicate even more time. The part I DO agree with people on is they should have shown more time when he flew the bomb out over the ocean, that was my main complaint about the entire movie (which didn't bother me too terribly much, it's a common annoyance in film editing).

In addition remember that it was stated it would take about 5 months for the core to deteriorate, which means when the spec ops team shows up in Gotham and it's been "about 3 months" since the occupation starts, that still leaves them with about a month remaining (remember Bane didn't immediately free prisoners from Blackgate, so it's actually been a little longer than 3 months since the core was removed). The time before that was when Bruce is recovering and attempts to escape the pit at least one time that we see on camera. The last indication of time remaining before Bruce escapes the pit is 23 DAYS (by Lucius to the Spec Ops team right before they die), and then when Bruce arrives there are only about 18 hours remaining. And if anyone thinks Bruce Wayne can't make it to Gotham in 2-3 weeks, even without money or Bat-gadgets, then we have nothing left to talk about.

Fair point, though I also think 2000 cops underground for 5 months would grow beards, lose their tans, probably lose some weight, too, and get a little big dusty, but who am I to argue?

And that's the first actual plot hole I've heard mentioned about TDKR, haha, maybe they gave them razors in the packages full of food? *shrugs*

And, honestly, Bruce Wayne with zero money or gadgets getting back to Gotham is probably a way more exciting and interesting story than the entire rest of the film. I'd have loved to see that part.

Yeah, would've been cool, but I enjoyed the movie still.

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Didn't we talk about the original article in the other thread? I can't find it...

Man, I had to turn the brightness up on my screen to max to see those numbers. I had no idea they existed (obviously). Okay, that makes more sense then.

Man, I had to turn the brightness up on my screen to max to see those numbers. I had no idea they existed (obviously). Okay, that makes more sense then.

Ha, yeah on my work computer I can barely see them, weird. On my monitor at home I could see them no problem.

Boom

- FN states he doesn't want to kill anyone and then immediately kills a whole bunch of other stormtroopers while in the tie fighter without even a second thought. (character inconsistencies may or may not fit Cody's definition of plot holes).

I think it's a whole different ballpark from shooting down defenseless civilians like on Jakku. The junior novel establishing Finn's background shows that he was long disgruntled with the First Order High Command as well as individual Stormtroopers and other officers. They were all absolutely merciless to even one another. Captain Phasma and Finn's old teammates were quick to screw each other over to prove their loyalty to Supreme Leader Snoke and Imperial ideology. No loyalty or care to your comrades in arms was a general order Stormtroopers were required to memorize.

When Finn escaped from Finalizer in the TIE fighter I think he realized that the First Order was an enemy worth applying his honed, elite skills towards. If not, then they were simply a foe that was in the way of his mental and physical wellbeing.

- FN states that he needs a pilot and can't pilot things many times throughout the film, but every single other character he meets is a pilot. Finding pilots and becoming a pilot seem like incredibly easy things, and it makes you wonder why FN can't just figure it out. (not a massive hole, but still weird enough to note).

That's an interesting thought! I would consider that perhaps pilots in the Galaxy Far, Far Away are about as common as automobile drivers were in the first half of the 20th century in the United States. More or less everyone knew at least someone who owned and drove a car. It's certainly not like now where most people, even if they don't own a car, are licensed to operate them.

- Princess Leia says how much she missed Han and loves Han, but there's absolutely no evidence whatsoever of that in her emotionless delivery. Okay, fine, not a plot hole, just terrible acting.

I wouldn't say that. She seemed extremely stressed by the gravity of the situation at hand, when the First Order is on the brink of tearing apart the New Republic. Adding in the appearance of her ex-husband and the father of her terribly estranged son completely throws her off. I can't say I would react any differently.

- FN states he doesn't want to kill anyone and then immediately kills a whole bunch of other stormtroopers while in the tie fighter without even a second thought. (character inconsistencies may or may not fit Cody's definition of plot holes).

I think it's a whole different ballpark from shooting down defenseless civilians like on Jakku. The junior novel establishing Finn's background shows that he was long disgruntled with the First Order High Command as well as individual Stormtroopers and other officers. They were all absolutely merciless to even one another. Captain Phasma and Finn's old teammates were quick to screw each other over to prove their loyalty to Supreme Leader Snoke and Imperial ideology. No loyalty or care to your comrades in arms was a general order Stormtroopers were required to memorize.

When Finn escaped from Finalizer in the TIE fighter I think he realized that the First Order was an enemy worth applying his honed, elite skills towards. If not, then they were simply a foe that was in the way of his mental and physical wellbeing.

Did you notice how giddy Finn was to have Phasma at gunpoint? That stuck with me when I walked out of the theater, and I didn't get it until the second time I watched it.

For the whole movie, Finn was terrified. His conscience wouldn't let him kill those innocent civilians, but he feared the First Order too much to do anything too defiant. It was only when he was told to submit his blaster for inspection, when he knew that he'd be found out and likely killed for disobedience, that he broke Poe out and made a run for it. He was a dead man anyway, and that reckless escape was his best chance at living.

From that point on, he wanted nothing to do with the First Order. That's why he stripped off his Stormtrooper armor in the desert, even though thermally reflective white plates have got to be cooler to wear than the heavy black fabric beneath them. He didn't want to fight back, either. From youth, he's been indoctrinated to know that the First Order is all powerful and all too willing to spend vast resources to punish betrayal. That fear was only confirmed when Stormtroopers called down an air strike on a village just to kill him and Rey.

He didn't want to fight the First Order. Playing along with the Rebellion story was just a means of getting as far away from the First Order as possible. For a while, it worked. But then people started asking too many questions and slowing him down, so he signed up with the first ship out of the system.

And then Starkiller Base destroyed the seat of the New Republic.

You look at his eyes when he sees the quasisuperluminal laser in the sky, and you can see two ideas warring in his head. The first is that something has to be done to stop the First Order. That same seed of doubt that stayed his hand in the village now told him that he couldn't walk away from this. It won't help to stand by and do nothing, because more innocents will die.

But there's also that old fear in his eyes. That belief that the First Order will hunt him to the ends of the galaxy. They have legions of troops. They have fleets of Star Destroyers. And now they have a superweapon that can reach across the universe. You can't run from something like that. You can only fight, and hope you accomplish something before you die.

You know what they say about cornered animals, right? It's true for humans too.

So he goes with Han to the Rebellion base. Scared out of his mind. He volunteers for the strike mission. Scared out of his mind. He returns to Starkiller base with not much in the way of a plan or heavy weaponry. Scared out of his mind and freezing to death. And when he confronts Captain Phasma, he's absolutely terrified. She's the one who trained him and the other Stormtroopers, drilling them to perfection. She's the one who warned him of the dangers of empathy and taught that loyalty to the First Order superseded all else.

But Finn was giddy when he confronted her, and it wasn't just bravado. He was overjoyed. After an hour of sneaking around the First Order's most prized installation, it's finally dawned on him that the First Order isn't all-powerful. His exuberance is the joy of someone who realizes that the monsters bleed.

Can't wait for the sequels.

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