I think Bungie dropped the ball...

No, this isn't being ghost-written by Cody ;p Wall of text incoming!

I made a post last week about my Prison of Elders first impressions.

http://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=70394

I wasn't a fan. Now that I've spent some more time with the mode, I like it even less. Not only that, I now feel that the way Bungie has anchored the current PvE content around PoE is causing some serious problems. But it's not all doom and gloom. I think changes can be made that will help improve things quite a bit. I'm trying to write this in the spirit of "constructive criticism". I hope it comes across that way.

I'm a raid fanboy, so keep that in mind as well. All of this is coming from the point of view of someone who enjoys raids above all else in Destiny.

Why Raids Work:

Despite the flaws with Destiny's loot system (RNG frustrations, only 1 way to hit max level, etc), I think both raids were successful pieces of end game content because they succeeded in a variety of ways. They are both inherently compelling activities that reward teams for itterating and improving on their tactics. Players who take the initiative can find near-infinite replay value by changing the way they approach each encounter. Mastered the left side of the Templar conflux battle? Try the right side. Defending the gatekeeper sync plates too easy for you? Try going through the portal and taking the relic. If you're willing to break out of your comfort zone, you can always find new things to do.

Then, there's the loot. Both raids offer loot that is literally game changing. Fatebringer, Mythoclast, Black Hammer, and a selection of elemental primary weapons are very powerful tools. Plus each raid offers multiple chances for exotics to drop. As you aquier these tools, you gain even more new ways to experience the same content. Not just raids, but all of Destiny. It's a powerful loop; you raid, get a new tool, go back to story missions/strikes with some fresh excitement, upgrade your new tool in the process, take it back into the raid again which now plays a little different because you have a new tool at your disposal, earn ANOTHER new tool, repeat.

So, what's wrong with Prison of Elders?

I've outlined 2 main reasons why Raids work for me:
1) inherently compelling content that rewards players who come back repeatedly.
2) Compelling (if sometimes frustrating) loot cycle.

In my opinion, Prison of Elders fails on both points.

I went into a lot of detail in my post last week as to why I don't inherently enjoy PoE as a high level activity. The TL;DR version is that I find the arenas to be poorly designed, and the encounters lack the depth they need to make them enjoyable over and over again. Bungie clearly intended the PoE arenas to keep players moving, darting from position to position (as is evident by the complete lack of substantially defendable positions). On the higher levels (34 & 35), enemies are too powerful and deal too much damage for this playstyle to work. So what happens is players find any piece of cover that is remotely exploitable, hide behind it, and cheese their way through.

Then there's the issue of repeatability. The arenas themselves are so limiting that you don't have much in the way of options. You are forced to handle the more challenging waves the same way every time, because any slight change in your tactics results in certain death. It might take you several tries to figure out how to clear a specific encounter, but once you've got it, you've got it. And that's all there is to it. The objectives aren't complicated enough to warrant further exploration of tactics, and the enemies are too punishing to allow it even if you try.

Unlike the Raids, Prison of Elders changes over time. Every week we are given a new set of challenge modes to keep things "fresh". Sounds great in theory, but...

1) Change is only good if the changes are good, and
2) Constant change actually harms our ability to learn and master something.

To my first point; I played the new level 32 and 34 PoE challenges with Cyber and Mad Stylus last night. Our new level 32 event is... last week's level 34 event (2nd week and we're already in reruns?). And the level 34 event contains several of the most frustrating encounters in Destiny. Hordes of Major Hobgoblins shooting at you from all sides with little-to-no cover is not a good time. And the wave 5 boss? What a disaster. These are not the kind of battles that make you feel empowered or satisfied when you beat them. They make you put down the controller hoping you never have to do it ever again. If Bungie is going to be throwing new challenges at us every week, they need to do a better job designing these battles.

And to my 2nd point, I'm sure that given enough time the community will uncover reliable, trustworthy ways to conquer even the most challenging waves. They always do. But with a new set of challenges coming next week, it hardly seems worth the effort. Why bother when we'll have a new set of challenges in a few days?

The big picture

So I don't think Prison of Elders is a well implemented activity. Fine. But as I said way back at the start of this rant, I think the problems run wider than just this 1 game mode. Let's look at the overall "loop" for end-game PvE players. Even with the flaws in the RNG loot system, the Raids provide players with the best overall chance of acquiring top-level weapons and armor. Players spend weeks or even months chasing Fatebringers and Mythoclasts because these weapons are worth the effort. Yes, you will sometimes get through a raid without earning anything new, but at least you get multiple drops per raid, on top of a pair of chances at an exotic.

In Prison of Elders, you get 1 drop at the very end. We're already hearing plenty of complaints from players who spent 2 hours slogging their way through a level 34 challenge (not enjoying the experience, just hoping for loot) only to get disconnected or have something else go wrong towards the end. This is an infuriating and demoralizing situation moment when it happens.

But what about players who do make it through? It's gotta be worth it for them, right? In my opinion, the Queen's gear that drops from Prison of Elders is just not worth the time. There are countless better weapons and pieces of armor in the game. It's fine that this gear is available... I'm sure some people will enjoy individual items. But as a collection of "prized" equipment, it falls sorely short. The fallen-themed weapons are even worse. An entire family of weapons featuring "Shank Burn" as the specialty perk? Bungie must be trolling us (;p).

No, the loot isn't very good. Unless, you have a Treasure key. This is where Prison of Elders starts to poison the rest of the end-game experience. Taken as it's own thing, the Wolf Pack attacks are a cool addition to Destiny's open world. I love the camaraderie it brings to patrol mode, and the rush to find the loot chest is always exciting. That is, until you add the Treasure Keys into the mix.

From a loot point of view, the only time Prison of Elders comes close to being worth the time investment is if you have a treasure key going in. Keys are extremely hard to come by. One of the only ways to find them is from the Wolf Pack chests. So players search out and grind these events. A lot. Over and over and over. But the drop rate of these treasure keys is insanely low. I've completed dozens of these events, opening each chest 2, 3, or 4 times. Since House of Wolves launched, I haven't found a single treasure key.

So for Prison of Elders to yield decent loot, I need to grind another activity into the ground in the hopes of acquiring a few keys. All of this on top of the fact that PoE already gets stale very quickly.

So what can be done?

The shining star of the House of Wolves expansion is Etheric Light. With this currency, we can take any gear we want and bring it up to max level. We can build out our characters however we like, to suit any playstyle. Awesome. If only etheric light wasn't such a pain in the ass to find.
Well actually, it isn't a pain to find at all... for PvP players. 1 hour of playing Trials of Osiris granted me 3 pieces of Etheric Light, plus 2 awesome new weapons, plus a great chest piece, and a fist full of other worthwhile rewards (coins, motes of light, plenty of glimmer). And that was just 1 play through with a single character. If I run ToO every week with multiple characters, plus the Iron Banner once a month, I'll get a nice steady flow of Etheric Light and plenty of great gear drops along the way. And even when I'm not playing ToO or Iron Banner, standard crucible matches now dish out rewards at a fantastic rate. Last week, 2 hours of the skirmish playlist got me 3 great new legendary weapons.

I think Bungie needs take this approach and apply it to PvE end content. I've run 6 nightfalls and 3 raids since House of Wolves dropped... not a single piece of Etheric Light. I earned better gear in less time playing Skirmish than I did by completing all 3 nightfalls this week.

If the ultimate promise of Etheric Light is to allow us the freedom build our characters however we want, speced out for whatever activity we want, then it seems to me that a wider range of reliable ways to earn etheric light would be in keeping with the spirit of that goal. They should still be rare, just not as rare as they are now. Make them slightly more common drops during raids, nightfalls, and daily/weekly heroics. Perhaps 1 guaranteed piece of etheric light every time we rank up our Queen's rep. Let us treat Prison of Elders as the occasional diversion that it really is, rather than forcing it into the prime-time spotlight as the primary end game activity.

Phew... ok... I think I'm done.

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I can't even begin to describe how terrible the level design in Prison of Elders is. It's just mind-bogglingly bad. Some arenas are better than others, but man.

I wrote a big rant (but didn't end up posting it) about how I'm probably not going to touch PoE again after last night. The upside of this is that I don't really need more Etheric light, and thereby don't need to do PoE to get it.

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So I will say that I also love raids, but I'm more of a PvE fanboy and not really much of a fan of PvP. Don't get me wrong, I like playing PvP, but if Bungie asked me what I wanted them to work on next, I would say PvE 120%. This is just to show you where my loyalties lie :-)

Okay, so I understand your grievances. I share some of those with you.

So what can be done?

The shining star of the House of Wolves expansion is Etheric Light. With this currency, we can take any gear we want and bring it up to max level. We can build out our characters however we like, to suit any playstyle. Awesome. If only etheric light wasn't such a pain in the ass to find.

This is true. It is. But so are some exotics (ask Cody)

Well actually, it isn't a pain to find at all... for PvP players. 1 hour of playing Trials of Osiris granted me 3 pieces of Etheric Light, plus 2 awesome new weapons, plus a great chest piece, and a fist full of other worthwhile rewards (coins, motes of light, plenty of glimmer). And that was just 1 play through with a single character.

Maybe I'm unlucky, but I have never gotten a Etheric Light. And I've played about 5-6 hours of ToO. I would lean on the side of saying that you are really lucky to get 3 in an hour.

If I run ToO every week with multiple characters, plus the Iron Banner once a month, I'll get a nice steady flow of Etheric Light and plenty of great gear drops along the way. And even when I'm not playing ToO or Iron Banner, standard crucible matches now dish out rewards at a fantastic rate. Last week, 2 hours of the skirmish playlist got me 3 great new legendary weapons.

I think this is largely due to the increase in loot for PvP. In comparison to PoE, I think they overcompensated the loot drops to the other side of the spectrum. I don't approve.

I think Bungie needs take this approach and apply it to PvE end content. I've run 6 nightfalls and 3 raids since House of Wolves dropped... not a single piece of Etheric Light. I earned better gear in less time playing Skirmish than I did by completing all 3 nightfalls this week.

Agreed.

If the ultimate promise of Etheric Light is to allow us the freedom build our characters however we want, speced out for whatever activity we want, then it seems to me that a wider range of reliable ways to earn etheric light would be in keeping with the spirit of that goal.

The most reliable way to earn Etheric Light is actually in PoE. Everywhere else it's random (as far as I know).

They should still be rare, just not as rare as they are now. Make them slightly more common drops during raids, nightfalls, and daily/weekly heroics. Perhaps 1 guaranteed piece of etheric light every time we rank up our Queen's rep.

I actually think that End game loot in HoW is really split between the actually new loot and Eitheric Light, which essentially means upgraded items.

And I think that is how it should be. However, I think it's almost too easy to get both of these things. I think Etheric Light should actually be harder to get.

Let us treat Prison of Elders as the occasional diversion that it really is, rather than forcing it into the prime-time spotlight as the primary end game activity.

In my eyes PoE and ToO are both end game content. I understand that you want to compare PoE to a raid in terms of end game content, but you just can't. It's not the same. Bungie has said that they wouldn't have a raid and have tried to make up for that with PoE AND ToO.

I don't think PoE has lived up to my standards, but I also think that the beauty of PoE is it's ability to evolve in months to come. Not just the randomness week from week. Raids aren't going to get bigger, more sections added to it, different loot drops. PoE can evolve well beyond any raid. That is what I'm looking forward to.

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Well actually, it isn't a pain to find at all... for PvP players. 1 hour of playing Trials of Osiris granted me 3 pieces of Etheric Light, plus 2 awesome new weapons, plus a great chest piece, and a fist full of other worthwhile rewards (coins, motes of light, plenty of glimmer). And that was just 1 play through with a single character.

Maybe I'm unlucky, but I have never gotten a Etheric Light. And I've played about 5-6 hours of ToO. I would lean on the side of saying that you are really lucky to get 3 in an hour.

I should clarify: my 1 hour of ToO resulted in a Flawless Victory. From what I can gather, 2-3 pieces of Etheric Light is about par for the course for a flawless victory.

I think Bungie needs take this approach and apply it to PvE end content. I've run 6 nightfalls and 3 raids since House of Wolves dropped... not a single piece of Etheric Light. I earned better gear in less time playing Skirmish than I did by completing all 3 nightfalls this week.

The most reliable way to earn Etheric Light is actually in PoE. Everywhere else it's random (as far as I know).

That is the point I was driving at: if I want to upgrade all my gear, I'm going to need a LOT of etheric light. Right now the only way to earn it is through PoE, and I don't enjoy that activity. So to progress, I need to spend an insane amount of time playing an activity I dislike.

Let us treat Prison of Elders as the occasional diversion that it really is, rather than forcing it into the prime-time spotlight as the primary end game activity.

In my eyes PoE and ToO are both end game content. I understand that you want to compare PoE to a raid in terms of end game content, but you just can't. It's not the same. Bungie has said that they wouldn't have a raid and have tried to make up for that with PoE AND ToO.

The only reason I'm directly comparing PoE to the raids is because that's the roll it now fills in Destiny's end game PvE content. I don't think it's fair to demand the same things from both modes either, but that's exactly what Bungie has done.

I don't think PoE has lived up to my standards, but I also think that the beauty of PoE is it's ability to evolve in months to come. Not just the randomness week from week. Raids aren't going to get bigger, more sections added to it, different loot drops. PoE can evolve well beyond any raid. That is what I'm looking forward to.

I have full faith in Bungie to tweak and improve PoE as time goes on. The problem as I see it is that high level PoE is currently awful (I enjoy level 28 for what it is; casual, chaotic fun... similar to the strike playlists). Bungie needs to make Herculean efforts just to make PoE half as interesting and engaging as Raids are at the top level. The idea that we're stuck with PoE as our primary way to progress until Comet is quite depressing to me :(

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I think Bungie needs take this approach and apply it to PvE end content. I've run 6 nightfalls and 3 raids since House of Wolves dropped... not a single piece of Etheric Light. I earned better gear in less time playing Skirmish than I did by completing all 3 nightfalls this week.

The most reliable way to earn Etheric Light is actually in PoE. Everywhere else it's random (as far as I know).

That is the point I was driving at: if I want to upgrade all my gear, I'm going to need a LOT of etheric light. Right now the only way to earn it is through PoE, and I don't enjoy that activity. So to progress, I need to spend an insane amount of time playing an activity I dislike.

You just told me that you have earned more from ToO than PoE. So why is it that you have to gruel your way through PoE? If you have the time, you have a better chance of getting more EL from other things than PoE. You're only guaranteed 1 EL from 34 and 35.

Let us treat Prison of Elders as the occasional diversion that it really is, rather than forcing it into the prime-time spotlight as the primary end game activity.

In my eyes PoE and ToO are both end game content. I understand that you want to compare PoE to a raid in terms of end game content, but you just can't. It's not the same. Bungie has said that they wouldn't have a raid and have tried to make up for that with PoE AND ToO.

The only reason I'm directly comparing PoE to the raids is because that's the roll it now fills in Destiny's end game PvE content. I don't think it's fair to demand the same things from both modes either, but that's exactly what Bungie has done.

What if for the next expansion, Bungie releases end game PvE content that wasn't a raid or PoE? Will you compare it to a Raid? or a Raid and PoE? Just because raids came first, doesn't mean they are the standard that all PvE end game content should be held by. Bungie couldn't get a raid out the door. What they could get out the door was PoE and ToO, both end game content. You just can't compare them.

I don't think PoE has lived up to my standards, but I also think that the beauty of PoE is it's ability to evolve in months to come. Not just the randomness week from week. Raids aren't going to get bigger, more sections added to it, different loot drops. PoE can evolve well beyond any raid. That is what I'm looking forward to.

I have full faith in Bungie to tweak and improve PoE as time goes on. The problem as I see it is that high level PoE is currently awful (I enjoy level 28 for what it is; casual, chaotic fun... similar to the strike playlists). Bungie needs to make Herculean efforts just to make PoE half as interesting and engaging as Raids are at the top level. The idea that we're stuck with PoE as our primary way to progress until Comet is quite depressing to me :(

I understand that PoE isn't what you expected. But from what it sounds like, you were expecting an experience similar to a raid. And if there is one thing I've learned about bungie, they don't do what you expect. And most of then time it take a little getting use to, but ultimately I think they make the right choice. Not a 100% of the time for a single user, but overall. And again, no company is perfect.

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That is the point I was driving at: if I want to upgrade all my gear, I'm going to need a LOT of etheric light. Right now the only way to earn it is through PoE, and I don't enjoy that activity. So to progress, I need to spend an insane amount of time playing an activity I dislike.

You just told me that you have earned more from ToO than PoE. So why is it that you have to gruel your way through PoE? If you have the time, you have a better chance of getting more EL from other things than PoE. You're only guaranteed 1 EL from 34 and 35.

I should be more clear again :)

Right now the only PvE way to earn it is through PoE...

Part of my problem here is that HoW really leaves PvE players in the dust compared to the rewards PvP players can earn.

The only reason I'm directly comparing PoE to the raids is because that's the roll it now fills in Destiny's end game PvE content. I don't think it's fair to demand the same things from both modes either, but that's exactly what Bungie has done.

What if for the next expansion, Bungie releases end game PvE content that wasn't a raid or PoE? Will you compare it to a Raid? or a Raid and PoE? Just because raids came first, doesn't mean they are the standard that all PvE end game content should be held by. Bungie couldn't get a raid out the door. What they could get out the door was PoE and ToO, both end game content. You just can't compare them.

I'm only comparing them in terms of the amount of time they take and the frequency we need to replay them in order to progress. I'm saying PoE doesn't have the replay value that the raids have, but Bungie has designed the HoW content in a way that forces us to replay it A LOT to earn the most important new currency in the game.

I understand that PoE isn't what you expected. But from what it sounds like, you were expecting an experience similar to a raid. And if there is one thing I've learned about bungie, they don't do what you expect. And most of then time it take a little getting use to, but ultimately I think they make the right choice. Not a 100% of the time for a single user, but overall. And again, no company is perfect.

I didn't expect anything similar to a raid, but I was hoping for something as good as a raid. Setting raids aside completely, Prison of Elders is a totally mediocre game mode compared to other arena/survival modes. I'm generally a huge fan of this style of cooperative multiplayer. If PoE was as well designed as Mass Effect 3's multiplayer, ODST Firefight, Splinter Cell Blacklist's survival mode, or Gears 3 Horde mode, I would have zero complaints whatsoever. Well, almost zero ;)

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. . .

I'm only comparing them in terms of the amount of time they take and the frequency we need to replay them in order to progress. I'm saying PoE doesn't have the replay value that the raids have, but Bungie has designed the HoW content in a way that forces us to replay it A LOT to earn the most important new currency in the game.

This is probably the right time to point out that this particular opinion of yours is heavily weighted by the "Top-10%-er status" you hold as a Destiny player. To many players -- probably even most players -- Prison of Elders already has more replay value than the raids. Even to a fellow "Top-10%-er" like myself, I think PoE has at least as much replay value as the raids. My mind is completely boggled when I hear these arguments that the raids - that don't have a single bit of randomness to the mechanics or even enemy spawn points - have more "replayability" than an activity that is literally based on varied objectives and enemy encounters from round to round.

To say that you personally don't enjoy Prison of Elders and lay out your reasoning, is completely fine and I would never argue with your personal dislike of the mode. But to say it has less replayability and that we are being forced to run PoE with more frequency to progress (than we were with the raids) - seems quite ludicrous.

Are we really so quick to forget that during season one, it took most of us several weeks to hit level 30, and many people never even got there because they couldn't run the raid 3x per week like we did? Meanwhile, even if we say that PoE is the only way to get Etheric Light, pretty much anybody should be able to hit level 34 within a couple days!

I understand that PoE isn't what you expected. But from what it sounds like, you were expecting an experience similar to a raid. And if there is one thing I've learned about bungie, they don't do what you expect. And most of then time it take a little getting use to, but ultimately I think they make the right choice. Not a 100% of the time for a single user, but overall. And again, no company is perfect.

I didn't expect anything similar to a raid, but I was hoping for something as good as a raid. Setting raids aside completely, Prison of Elders is a totally mediocre game mode compared to other arena/survival modes. I'm generally a huge fan of this style of cooperative multiplayer. If PoE was as well designed as Mass Effect 3's multiplayer, ODST Firefight, Splinter Cell Blacklist's survival mode, or Gears 3 Horde mode, I would have zero complaints whatsoever. Well, almost zero ;)

Without getting into it too much (mostly because I don't have the time right now), I just want to publicly state my opinion that I strongly disagree.

I disagree with your assertion that there are no safe spots to defend in the arenas. I disagree with the assertion the objectives are not interesting and/or challenging.

I am enjoying Prison of Elders quite a bit. Playing the level 34 Quodron challenge last night sure as hell felt like we were three-manning a raid. That encounter has just as many "different" mechanics as the Atheon encounter. Just from talking with many other DBOers here, in-game, in IRC, and elsewhere -- I know I am not alone in the opinion that PoE is quite good. Even if you don't like it, I will argue to the ends of the earth that in giving us PoE and ToO (and foregoing the raid for now) Bungie absolutely made the right decision for the game and this community.

Edit: I wanted to change the subject of my post to "You don't like it - but I vehemently disagree that Bungie dropped the ball." (stoopid character limits in post subjects)

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. . .

I'm only comparing them in terms of the amount of time they take and the frequency we need to replay them in order to progress. I'm saying PoE doesn't have the replay value that the raids have, but Bungie has designed the HoW content in a way that forces us to replay it A LOT to earn the most important new currency in the game.

This is probably the right time to point out that this particular opinion of yours is heavily weighted by the "Top-10%-er status" you hold as a Destiny player. To many players -- probably even most players -- Prison of Elders already has more replay value than the raids. Even to a fellow "Top-10%-er" like myself, I think PoE has at least as much replay value as the raids. My mind is completely boggled when I hear these arguments that the raids - that don't have a single bit of randomness to the mechanics or even enemy spawn points - have more "replayability" than an activity that is literally based on varied objectives and enemy encounters from round to round.

As I described in my OP, the static nature of the raids gives us the ability to "bring our own" replay value in a lot of ways. We know what's coming, we design formations or "plays" to get through each encounter. From there, we constantly try to come up with new plays or formations, swap roles around, etc. Having a static challenge to work through gives us the opportunity to learn and grow in a way that constantly changing encounters don't.

To say that you personally don't enjoy Prison of Elders and lay out your reasoning, is completely fine and I would never argue with your personal dislike of the mode. But to say it has less replayability and that we are being forced to run PoE with more frequency to progress (than we were with the raids) - seems quite ludicrous.

That's not what I'm saying either. I'm saying it has less replayability than raids, but we are being forced to replay it in a similar fashion to how we needed to replay raids, if we care about progressing.

I disagree with your assertion that there are no safe spots to defend in the arenas. I disagree with the assertion the objectives are not interesting and/or challenging.

Oh, there are safe spots. They're usually about 5 feet wide and 3 feet high ;)

The arena/survival modes that I enjoy don't have any true "safe" spots either, but they have areas (the plural is particularly important here) where a team working together can mount a respectable stand. These areas still require movement, jockying for position, rotating to cover weak spots, etc. Think back to the "Top of the staircase" in the Alpha Site map in ODST. It's a large area with plenty of enemy approaches. You can't camp and succeed. You need to keep moving, communicate, coordinate attacks, out maneuver the enemies, all in ways that PoE never requires.

The safe spots in PoE are never more than "a pillar", or "the hallway between 2 spawn doors". It is just 3 people camping behind a poor excuse for cover.

I am enjoying Prison of Elders quite a bit. Playing the level 34 Quodron challenge last night sure as hell felt like we were three-manning a raid. That encounter has just as many "different" mechanics as the Atheon encounter.

I gotta call BS on that one (in a friendly way ;p). I think you're dismissing just how complex the Atheon encounter is, probably because we've done it so many damn times that it has become 2nd nature for us. There is WAY more going on there, and in the Crota battle.

Just from talking with many other DBOers here, in-game, in IRC, and elsewhere -- I know I am not alone in the opinion that PoE is quite good. Even if you don't like it, I will argue to the ends of the earth that in giving us PoE and ToO (and foregoing the raid for now) Bungie absolutely made the right decision for the game and this community.

Edit: I wanted to change the subject of my post to "You don't like it - but I vehemently disagree that Bungie dropped the ball." (stoopid character limits in post subjects)

Just to be clear, I really think PoE and ToO are both important additions to the game. I'm actually a huge fan of ToO... I think it is near perfect for what it is. I just think PoE is nowhere near as good as it could be, and the problems with the rewards system compound the issue.

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That's not what I'm saying either. I'm saying it has less replayability than raids, but we are being forced to replay it in a similar fashion to how we needed to replay raids, if we care about progressing.

You must have a different meaning than I do when you refer to "progressing" because to progress in HoW, I can only thing of 3 ways.

1. Finish story arc
2. Reach level 34
3. acquire every new item from HoW

Unless you are talking about the third way, you never have to touch PoE to progress. I understand people who want to get everything in a new expansion, but it should never be considered progression imho

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That's not what I'm saying either. I'm saying it has less replayability than raids, but we are being forced to replay it in a similar fashion to how we needed to replay raids, if we care about progressing.

You must have a different meaning than I do when you refer to "progressing" because to progress in HoW, I can only thing of 3 ways.

1. Finish story arc
2. Reach level 34
3. acquire every new item from HoW

Unless you are talking about the third way, you never have to touch PoE to progress. I understand people who want to get everything in a new expansion, but it should never be considered progression imho

For me, progressing includes everything you mentioned for the short term, but the long term goal is to take all my favorite weapons and armor and bring them up to max level. (not everything I have... just my favorites). To do that, I need Etheric Light. And the only predictable way to earn etheric light (aside from PvP activities) is PoE. That's why I suggest making Etheric Light a slightly more common drop from other activities.

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I'm only comparing them in terms of the amount of time they take and the frequency we need to replay them in order to progress. I'm saying PoE doesn't have the replay value that the raids have, but Bungie has designed the HoW content in a way that forces us to replay it A LOT to earn the most important new currency in the game.

This is probably the right time to point out that this particular opinion of yours is heavily weighted by the "Top-10%-er status" you hold as a Destiny player. To many players -- probably even most players -- Prison of Elders already has more replay value than the raids. Even to a fellow "Top-10%-er" like myself, I think PoE has at least as much replay value as the raids. My mind is completely boggled when I hear these arguments that the raids - that don't have a single bit of randomness to the mechanics or even enemy spawn points - have more "replayability" than an activity that is literally based on varied objectives and enemy encounters from round to round.

To say that you personally don't enjoy Prison of Elders and lay out your reasoning, is completely fine and I would never argue with your personal dislike of the mode. But to say it has less replayability and that we are being forced to run PoE with more frequency to progress (than we were with the raids) - seems quite ludicrous.

Absolutely. (For just about your entire post really)

I wish there was a sociologist or psychologist in grad school hanging around here, they'd have a field day with the material for dissertations over the past years on these forums. There is so much subjective experience posited as objective criticism that my head spins. It does not negate your *feelings* - you can certainly think it's frustrating, or that it's too tough, etc. But it doesn't mean it's broken. What it does mean is that those few gametypes you DO like were perfectly suited for your particular preferences - and guess what - there were many people that HATED the Raids - and they walked away from this game and so we don't hear from them anymore - so to fool ourselves into thinking we're a community of Raid-loving people is to not fully grasp how these sort of things work.

- m

http://www.gamblersanonymous.org/

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I wish there was a sociologist or psychologist in grad school hanging around here, they'd have a field day with the material for dissertations over the past years on these forums. There is so much subjective experience posited as objective criticism that my head spins. It does not negate your *feelings* - you can certainly think it's frustrating, or that it's too tough, etc. But it doesn't mean it's broken. What it does mean is that those few gametypes you DO like were perfectly suited for your particular preferences - and guess what - there were many people that HATED the Raids - and they walked away from this game and so we don't hear from them anymore - so to fool ourselves into thinking we're a community of Raid-loving people is to not fully grasp how these sort of things work.

Just needed to jump in and say that I didn't claim any of those things. I started my OP by owning up to the fact that I am a raid fan boy, so my preferences are skewed that way. I should also stress that in general, I ADORE arena/survival gametypes. I'm not just some "raid snob" turning his nose up at any other gametype. I do think Prison of Elders has a place in Destiny, but I think it has some serious problems that need working out; both as a gametype in and of itself, and the way that it has been placed at the top of Destiny's PvE end game.

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I wish there was a sociologist or psychologist in grad school hanging around here, they'd have a field day with the material for dissertations over the past years on these forums. There is so much subjective experience posited as objective criticism that my head spins. It does not negate your *feelings* - you can certainly think it's frustrating, or that it's too tough, etc. But it doesn't mean it's broken. What it does mean is that those few gametypes you DO like were perfectly suited for your particular preferences - and guess what - there were many people that HATED the Raids - and they walked away from this game and so we don't hear from them anymore - so to fool ourselves into thinking we're a community of Raid-loving people is to not fully grasp how these sort of things work.

Just needed to jump in and say that I didn't claim any of those things. I started my OP by owning up to the fact that I am a raid fan boy, so my preferences are skewed that way. I should also stress that in general, I ADORE arena/survival gametypes. I'm not just some "raid snob" turning his nose up at any other gametype. I do think Prison of Elders has a place in Destiny, but I think it has some serious problems that need working out; both as a gametype in and of itself, and the way that it has been placed at the top of Destiny's PvE end game.

Well I'm kind of smooshing all the tone and tenor of the negative commentary throughout this thread together. Sorry if it's devolved from what you consider your OP. I don't think it's too far removed though. I look at your wall of text in the OP and frankly it read to me as 'I don't like this, this is what Bungie can do to make it something I like." I only used the Raid comment as a jumping off point on how this is all subjective. I'm not saying you're a Raid fanboi to negate your critique. Not at all.

Thanks

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I just wanted to make sure that my post wasn't coming across as something other than how it was intended. I tried really hard to make well thought out points and criticisms, not just "I don't like this so fix it for me!". I really was just trying to be constructive, and offer some suggestions that will make the mode better for everyone (fans of PoE as well as those who aren't crazy about it).

I guess I've just had a few people reply as if I was doing nothing but whining, so I'm feeling a touch defensive.

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Just needed to jump in and say that I didn't claim any of those things. I started my OP by owning up to the fact that I am a raid fan boy, so my preferences are skewed that way.

I read the OP again and you did do a good job of making sure it's stated as your opinion. There are a few instances though where you revert to saying "you", instead of "I". As in "You have to do the same strategy over and over", which causes me to subconsciously respond "no, I don't".

I realize the use of "you" does not actually mean everyone but you, but is meant to include you. Still, hopefully you see the way you might leave someone feeling like you aren't expressing a personal experience, but laying your experience on the community.

Your title is also a declaration of an external fact that applies globally, not an opinion based on person experience. Bungie failed to cater to your desires, but I think it's early to decide whether, as a whole, Destiny the game is worse off or better off with the inclusion of PoE for the community at large. And when I say "Community", I really mean every Destiny player, not the minority demographic that spends time online conversing with other players.

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Your title is also a declaration of an external fact that applies globally, not an opinion based on person experience.

Um, wait. He did say "I think ...."

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That doesn't automatically change it from a statement of fact to a statement if opinion. If someone trusts his opinion enough to believe it to be true (in the absence of their own knowledge), it's contextually factual (at least legally).

But I know what you mean and agree. I'm just being Super Pedant (the world's worst superhero) because I like teaching people new things.

Also I dont know if its true in America. So I might have just forced some obscure English legal technicality on you all. Yay Super Pedant!

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Worse than Lord Smoked Meats and Fishes?

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That doesn't automatically change it from a statement of fact to a statement if opinion. If someone trusts his opinion enough to believe it to be true (in the absence of their own knowledge), it's contextually factual (at least legally).

But I know what you mean and agree. I'm just being Super Pedant (the world's worst superhero) because I like teaching people new things.

Also I dont know if its true in America. So I might have just forced some obscure English legal technicality on you all. Yay Super Pedant!

Hold up there, caped crusader.

I don't know how it is in the U.K. and Canada, but in the U.S. of A. when I say "I think" I'm identifying what follows as my own thoughts. If I were absolutely sure what I was saying was factual irrespective of my own thoughts, it would be completely superfluous to say "I think" (e.g. "I think birds fly).

As far as I'm concerned, Cruel identified his thesis as opinion in the title of the OP. Because his opinion was dramatically stated (and arguably premature?) he got pushback and over the course of this cursed thread got lumped in with the several others around here who wield their ethereal (and often wrong-headed) opinions as if they were factual, hard-hitting nunchucks.

That's kind of a shame in that he's one of the most thoughtful, articulate, and reasonable voices on DBO.

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Oh, don't get me wrong - I don't even think the technicality applies in this scenario. He's not an officially recognised authority figure or anything like that, and has made it clear in other ways that it's all just subjective and opinion.

I was just sharing some useless knowledge :)

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Oh, don't get me wrong - I don't even think the technicality applies in this scenario. He's not an officially recognised authority figure or anything like that, and has made it clear in other ways that it's all just subjective and opinion.

I was just sharing some useless knowledge :)

Yeah, but I must be too dense to grok the knowledge you're passing on. You seem to be saying "I think" doesn't imply subjectivity even in a legal context, but I can easily imagine a barrister asking a witness for clarification were they to say "I think [something]."

[Raised eyebrow]

"Do you 'think', madam, or do you 'know'?"

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The example I was taught: If I say "I think Kermit stole £10" I'm modifying a factual statement to be an "opinion". But I'm still making a factual statement (Kermit stole £10), just with a qualifier. [That's important. If, without the "I think" the statement is still subjective and can't be measured - e.g. the quality of a produc - it would be different - as it is here]

If I make that statement to a person or people who trust and believe me, and know that I don't joke around, it's very likely that they'll believe that you've stolen my money. And if you haven't I've slandered you.

As you might imagine, it only really comes up in defamation cases, and the technicality exists specifically to prevent people from stating "opinions" to people they know will take it as fact, then hiding behind the words "I think".

Of course, it can be very hard to prove either way without additional evidence because it has to beyond all reasonable doubt.

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The example I was taught: If I say "I think Kermit stole £10" I'm modifying a factual statement to be an "opinion". But I'm still making a factual statement (Kermit stole £10), just with a qualifier. [That's important. If, without the "I think" the statement is still subjective and can't be measured - e.g. the quality of a produc - it would be different - as it is here]

If I make that statement to a person or people who trust and believe me, and know that I don't joke around, it's very likely that they'll believe that you've stolen my money. And if you haven't I've slandered you.

As you might imagine, it only really comes up in defamation cases, and the technicality exists specifically to prevent people from stating "opinions" to people they know will take it as fact, then hiding behind the words "I think".

Of course, it can be very hard to prove either way without additional evidence because it has to beyond all reasonable doubt.

Ah, gotcha. I understand within that context, and you were initially right to suggest this was a British legal technicality. Off topic, I think the British defamation laws are overly broad, but I'm a pretty staunch supporter of the U.S. first amendment, which is broad is a different direction.

Cheers!

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My thoughts tend to fluctuate. The fact that you only have to prove the person making the statement doesn't have proof, rather than having to prove they're wrong rubs me the wrong way, but I like that it takes into account context and the relationship between the speaker and their audience.

But anyway, there you go. Discussion of defamation technicalities on a videogame fansite. Super Pedant, awaaaaaaaaaaay.

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None of us are knowledgeable enough on the intircacies of both US and UK tort law to know the differences.
;_;

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....and weeks late in my response....

What I mean is that he's stating something for us the community, and in doing so is going to get disagreement. The clarifier I'd want is not for the statement to be "opinion" but for it to be "personal opinion" as applied to himself. So, the modify would not be to add "I think" but to add "for me", as in:

"Bungie dropped the ball for me"
or
"In my experience, Bungie dropped the ball"

Those are things that are:
1. True
2. Can not be argued with.

those statements allow other people to respond in discourse, instead of disagreement. This, by the way, is marriage counseling 101, which I've done, so I'm an expert ;-)

Just stating something as opinion doesn't avoid distracting arguments.

So, "In my experience, Bungie dropped the ball" invites others to say "Really? You're not wrong, but in my experience they didn't, and here is why".

Where as "In my opinion, Bungie dropped the ball" tends to invite "No, they didn't", because the subject is whether Bungie dropped the ball globally for the community, and isn't pointed at personal experience.

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I wish there was a sociologist or psychologist in grad school hanging around here, they'd have a field day with the material for dissertations over the past years on these forums. There is so much subjective experience posited as objective criticism that my head spins.

Well, Cody hasn't posted for days, and nature abhors a vacuum. ;)

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More like a love tap.

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I should clarify: my 1 hour of ToO resulted in a Flawless Victory. From what I can gather, 2-3 pieces of Etheric Light is about par for the course for a flawless victory.

A flawless victory is something most of use will never ever see. Comparing that reward level of ToO to anything else in the entirety of Destiny is just not right. I'm a decent Crucible player. I've played three serious ToO sessions along side decent Crucible players and I have never gotten above 3 wins. I'm thinking you need to do a reality check and should consider that what most of us will ever get out of ToO (other than intense frustration) is nowhere near what you got out of it.

On the bigger picture of PoE, I just find it silly how you talk about trying pieces of a raid from the left side, then the right side... when a lot of the advice for section of PoE is "we had luck trying it from the left side" or "Cluster on the right side." I'm not saying PoE is equal to a raid... to me raids have more thematic continuity and that counts for something... but the harder challenges of PoE are roughly as replayable as any section of either Raid.

Furthermore, you seem to be judging the first couple of weeks of PoE vs months of people having figured out the Raids. Even week to week we breezed through the same PoE room that we were stuck on just one week earlier. As players level up the 34 level PoE will become much easier than trying to run it as a 32 or 33. Same as the seemingly impossible sections of the Raids were quickly broken down and figured out and get easier as players leveled from 28 to 32 or 30 to 32. Also, PoE isn't finished revealing all of its content. By the time the we see all the content it may turn out that PoE has more unique segments than either VoG or Crota's End. Maybe the Raid segments are a bit more challenging or a bit more team dependent or whatever but in the grand scheme of things I don't think the Raids and a high level PoE run won't be all that dissimilar in the way they challenge players.

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I should clarify: my 1 hour of ToO resulted in a Flawless Victory. From what I can gather, 2-3 pieces of Etheric Light is about par for the course for a flawless victory.

A flawless victory is something most of use will never ever see. Comparing that reward level of ToO to anything else in the entirety of Destiny is just not right. I'm a decent Crucible player. I've played three serious ToO sessions along side decent Crucible players and I have never gotten above 3 wins. I'm thinking you need to do a reality check and should consider that what most of us will ever get out of ToO (other than intense frustration) is nowhere near what you got out of it.

From my response to Xenos' post here:

you are 100% correct that my ToO results were ideal. But let's look at the ideal PoE results: the best you can hope for from a 34 or 35 run is 1 etheric light (unless they also drop from the large chest... Do they?). So that's 1 every 1-2 hours vs 3 every hour-1.5 hours. On top of that, there are plenty of ways to spend a couple hours in PoE and walk away with NOTHING. At least with ToO you can get the other reward packages, buy weapons and armor, and get drops along the way.

On the bigger picture of PoE, I just find it silly how you talk about trying pieces of a raid from the left side, then the right side... when a lot of the advice for section of PoE is "we had luck trying it from the left side" or "Cluster on the right side."

Those are descriptions of 2 very different scenarios. When I talk about switching positions in a raid, it is the equivalent of changing the position you play on a sports team. I don't know if you are into sports at all, but I'll run with the analogy: Changing from the left side to the right side in a given section of a raid can be a lot like changing from a power forward to a shooting guard in basketball. You have a different set of responsibilities, and it requires a different skill set.

With Prison of Elders, it is quite literally "should we stand over here or over there". There isn't much more to it than that.

I'm not saying PoE is equal to a raid... to me raids have more thematic continuity and that counts for something... but the harder challenges of PoE are roughly as replayable as any section of either Raid.

I respectfully disagree, for the very reasons I mentioned above. Different positions in raids can require a very different skill set. You sometimes need to completely relearn an encounter because your roll within it is so different. So far, we haven't seen anything on that level in PoE, and I doubt we ever will. That requires a level of coordination and teamwork that bungie seems unwilling to demand from a matchmade event.

Furthermore, you seem to be judging the first couple of weeks of PoE vs months of people having figured out the Raids. Even week to week we breezed through the same PoE room that we were stuck on just one week earlier. As players level up the 34 level PoE will become much easier than trying to run it as a 32 or 33. Same as the seemingly impossible sections of the Raids were quickly broken down and figured out and get easier as players leveled from 28 to 32 or 30 to 32. Also, PoE isn't finished revealing all of its content. By the time the we see all the content it may turn out that PoE has more unique segments than either VoG or Crota's End. Maybe the Raid segments are a bit more challenging or a bit more team dependent or whatever but in the grand scheme of things I don't think the Raids and a high level PoE run won't be all that dissimilar in the way they challenge players.

I'm judging PoE by the fact that it was already getting old during my 2nd playthrough, while the raids consistently open up with more challenges and possibilities the more I play them. And that's fine... PoE doesn't need to match the raids in that way. But PoE has been worked into the end game in a way that demands we replay it over and over (if we want to progress/upgrade our stuff), and I don't think the activity itself can handle that level of repetition.

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I should clarify: my 1 hour of ToO resulted in a Flawless Victory. From what I can gather, 2-3 pieces of Etheric Light is about par for the course for a flawless victory.

A flawless victory is something most of use will never ever see. Comparing that reward level of ToO to anything else in the entirety of Destiny is just not right. I'm a decent Crucible player. I've played three serious ToO sessions along side decent Crucible players and I have never gotten above 3 wins. I'm thinking you need to do a reality check and should consider that what most of us will ever get out of ToO (other than intense frustration) is nowhere near what you got out of it.

From my response to Xenos' post here:

you are 100% correct that my ToO results were ideal. But let's look at the ideal PoE results: the best you can hope for from a 34 or 35 run is 1 etheric light (unless they also drop from the large chest... Do they?). So that's 1 every 1-2 hours vs 3 every hour-1.5 hours. On top of that, there are plenty of ways to spend a couple hours in PoE and walk away with NOTHING. At least with ToO you can get the other reward packages, buy weapons and armor, and get drops along the way.

Three every hour? I played three multi-hour sessions of ToO and got exactly zero Etheric Light. That's vs a small pile of Strange Coins, Motes of Light, and Legendary Weapons from PoE with much much less frustration. You are vastly inflating what is possible with ToO and vastly deflating what PoE rewards... It certainly didn't take us two hours to beat last week's 34 PoE either. Certainly not our second play through where we knew what was up. Probably didn't even take an hour.

On the bigger picture of PoE, I just find it silly how you talk about trying pieces of a raid from the left side, then the right side... when a lot of the advice for section of PoE is "we had luck trying it from the left side" or "Cluster on the right side."

Those are descriptions of 2 very different scenarios. When I talk about switching positions in a raid, it is the equivalent of changing the position you play on a sports team. I don't know if you are into sports at all, but I'll run with the analogy: Changing from the left side to the right side in a given section of a raid can be a lot like changing from a power forward to a shooting guard in basketball. You have a different set of responsibilities, and it requires a different skill set.

With Prison of Elders, it is quite literally "should we stand over here or over there". There isn't much more to it than that.

I played a great, almost essential position as a Bubble Titan vs the flame boss. My two Hunter companions played great rolls as Orb generators and add killers with their Golden Guns. In the Arc Hive section cloaky Hunters were a huge help. Against the Cabal I could see a Solar Warlock being very good at breaking those flame shields. Are the Raid mechanics a little more complex? Sure. But again, there are quite litereally far more role possibilities in PoE than you acknowledge!

I'm not saying PoE is equal to a raid... to me raids have more thematic continuity and that counts for something... but the harder challenges of PoE are roughly as replayable as any section of either Raid.

I respectfully disagree, for the very reasons I mentioned above. Different positions in raids can require a very different skill set. You sometimes need to completely relearn an encounter because your roll within it is so different. So far, we haven't seen anything on that level in PoE, and I doubt we ever will. That requires a level of coordination and teamwork that bungie seems unwilling to demand from a matchmade event.

I can't blame them. I will not run a raid with a random team of nobodies because of the awful idiots I've picked up in my few attempts of LFG.

Furthermore, you seem to be judging the first couple of weeks of PoE vs months of people having figured out the Raids. Even week to week we breezed through the same PoE room that we were stuck on just one week earlier. As players level up the 34 level PoE will become much easier than trying to run it as a 32 or 33. Same as the seemingly impossible sections of the Raids were quickly broken down and figured out and get easier as players leveled from 28 to 32 or 30 to 32. Also, PoE isn't finished revealing all of its content. By the time the we see all the content it may turn out that PoE has more unique segments than either VoG or Crota's End. Maybe the Raid segments are a bit more challenging or a bit more team dependent or whatever but in the grand scheme of things I don't think the Raids and a high level PoE run won't be all that dissimilar in the way they challenge players.

I'm judging PoE by the fact that it was already getting old during my 2nd playthrough, while the raids consistently open up with more challenges and possibilities the more I play them. And that's fine... PoE doesn't need to match the raids in that way. But PoE has been worked into the end game in a way that demands we replay it over and over (if we want to progress/upgrade our stuff), and I don't think the activity itself can handle that level of repetition.

PoE is still adding new content week to week. It is still opening up. You seem to be ignoring that. As I and others have said, the bosses and encounters that seem too hard right now will be figured out and become as trivial as the Raids are now. You also shouldn't look at PoE as the only PvE way to get Etheric Light. Supposedly Nightfalls will also sometimes grant Etheric Light. And I know for a fact that I have a much better chance at completing a Nightfall than I do getting 4 wins in ToO. I've beat three nightfalls since HoW came out. Beyond random drops I have gotten absolutely no rewards from ToO!

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In the Arc Hive section cloaky Hunters were a huge help.

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In the Arc Hive section cloaky Hunters were a huge help.

Well, they always are, aren't they? ;)

But really, you don't need to cloak at all. You barely need to move. You just hide behind tiny pieces of cover at the far sides of the room and nail the hive as they run through their doorways. When mine A or C spawn, you are already right on top of them. When B spawns, you run along the lower path (where they can't hit you) and jump up to the central platform, keeping just behind the large pillar. They won't even see you.

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In the Arc Hive section cloaky Hunters were a huge help.

Well, they always are, aren't they? ;)

But really, you don't need to cloak at all. You barely need to move. You just hide behind tiny pieces of cover at the far sides of the room and nail the hive as they run through their doorways. When mine A or C spawn, you are already right on top of them. When B spawns, you run along the lower path (where they can't hit you) and jump up to the central platform, keeping just behind the large pillar. They won't even see you.

I think you're underestimating how terrible we are.

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In the Arc Hive section cloaky Hunters were a huge help.

Well, they always are, aren't they? ;)

But really, you don't need to cloak at all. You barely need to move. You just hide behind tiny pieces of cover at the far sides of the room and nail the hive as they run through their doorways. When mine A or C spawn, you are already right on top of them. When B spawns, you run along the lower path (where they can't hit you) and jump up to the central platform, keeping just behind the large pillar. They won't even see you.

I think you're underestimating how terrible we are.

lol... don't worry, we died PLENTY of times before we got the hang of it, too :)

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you are 100% correct that my ToO results were ideal. But let's look at the ideal PoE results: the best you can hope for from a 34 or 35 run is 1 etheric light (unless they also drop from the large chest... Do they?). So that's 1 every 1-2 hours vs 3 every hour-1.5 hours. On top of that, there are plenty of ways to spend a couple hours in PoE and walk away with NOTHING. At least with ToO you can get the other reward packages, buy weapons and armor, and get drops along the way.

Three every hour? I played three multi-hour sessions of ToO and got exactly zero Etheric Light. That's vs a small pile of Strange Coins, Motes of Light, and Legendary Weapons from PoE with much much less frustration. You are vastly inflating what is possible with ToO and vastly deflating what PoE rewards... It certainly didn't take us two hours to beat last week's 34 PoE either. Certainly not our second play through where we knew what was up. Probably didn't even take an hour.

You seem to have missed the part where I said "my ToO results were ideal", and then went on to add that even if you don't do that well, you still have plenty of opportunity to get some decent drops (in the 7 games I played with Cyber and Ottermack, Otter got 3 random drops post-match, not tied to any form of victory rewards).

On the bigger picture of PoE, I just find it silly how you talk about trying pieces of a raid from the left side, then the right side... when a lot of the advice for section of PoE is "we had luck trying it from the left side" or "Cluster on the right side."

Those are descriptions of 2 very different scenarios. When I talk about switching positions in a raid, it is the equivalent of changing the position you play on a sports team. I don't know if you are into sports at all, but I'll run with the analogy: Changing from the left side to the right side in a given section of a raid can be a lot like changing from a power forward to a shooting guard in basketball. You have a different set of responsibilities, and it requires a different skill set.

With Prison of Elders, it is quite literally "should we stand over here or over there". There isn't much more to it than that.

I played a great, almost essential position as a Bubble Titan vs the flame boss. My two Hunter companions played great rolls as Orb generators and add killers with their Golden Guns. In the Arc Hive section cloaky Hunters were a huge help. Against the Cabal I could see a Solar Warlock being very good at breaking those flame shields. Are the Raid mechanics a little more complex? Sure. But again, there are quite litereally far more role possibilities in PoE than you acknowledge!

How is "use the warlock to break flame shields" specific to Prison of Elders? That is part of Destiny combat, across the board :)

Regarding your Titan move vs the flame boss, I thought it was equally crucial until I went in as a hunter and just jumped up and down while the floor was on fire. Survived, no problem (as a 34 against the 34 boss... I doubt I would have made it as a 33). I would argue that there are actually fewer roll responsibilities that you think there are. Things just seem a little more overwhelming (thus we need to split up responsibilities) the first couple times through.

And I should stress that I don't think it is a bad thing that PoE is simpler than the Raids... quite the opposite. I just find that for me personally, the lack of depth makes it difficult to enjoy replaying PoE several times per week, where as the raids easily hold up to such constant repetition IMO.

I'm not saying PoE is equal to a raid... to me raids have more thematic continuity and that counts for something... but the harder challenges of PoE are roughly as replayable as any section of either Raid.

I respectfully disagree, for the very reasons I mentioned above. Different positions in raids can require a very different skill set. You sometimes need to completely relearn an encounter because your roll within it is so different. So far, we haven't seen anything on that level in PoE, and I doubt we ever will. That requires a level of coordination and teamwork that bungie seems unwilling to demand from a matchmade event.

I can't blame them. I will not run a raid with a random team of nobodies because of the awful idiots I've picked up in my few attempts of LFG.

Completely agree. I should have specified that I agree with their decision there.

Furthermore, you seem to be judging the first couple of weeks of PoE vs months of people having figured out the Raids. Even week to week we breezed through the same PoE room that we were stuck on just one week earlier. As players level up the 34 level PoE will become much easier than trying to run it as a 32 or 33. Same as the seemingly impossible sections of the Raids were quickly broken down and figured out and get easier as players leveled from 28 to 32 or 30 to 32. Also, PoE isn't finished revealing all of its content. By the time the we see all the content it may turn out that PoE has more unique segments than either VoG or Crota's End. Maybe the Raid segments are a bit more challenging or a bit more team dependent or whatever but in the grand scheme of things I don't think the Raids and a high level PoE run won't be all that dissimilar in the way they challenge players.

I'm judging PoE by the fact that it was already getting old during my 2nd playthrough, while the raids consistently open up with more challenges and possibilities the more I play them. And that's fine... PoE doesn't need to match the raids in that way. But PoE has been worked into the end game in a way that demands we replay it over and over (if we want to progress/upgrade our stuff), and I don't think the activity itself can handle that level of repetition.

PoE is still adding new content week to week. It is still opening up. You seem to be ignoring that. As I and others have said, the bosses and encounters that seem too hard right now will be figured out and become as trivial as the Raids are now.

I didn't ignore that, I actually addressed it directly when I said "new content is only good if the new content is good". IMO, this week's level 34 PoE is a trainwreck of combat design. I'm fine with "difficult" (it's not an issue of difficulty... I completed Halo Reach Mythic runs on a regular basis. I like difficult.)

You also shouldn't look at PoE as the only PvE way to get Etheric Light. Supposedly Nightfalls will also sometimes grant Etheric Light. And I know for a fact that I have a much better chance at completing a Nightfall than I do getting 4 wins in ToO. I've beat three nightfalls since HoW came out. Beyond random drops I have gotten absolutely no rewards from ToO!

As I said in my OP, I think this should be expanded upon. I didn't get a single piece of Etheric Light in my 6 nightfall runs since HoW launched. Once again, I feel cornered into playing PoE more than I'd like to if I want to acquire even a trickle of Etheric light on a regular basis.

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I'm a middling player on a good day and I got 7 etheric whatevers from ToO.

The last run, the Xbox 360 run, it took us I think 80 minutes to get 3. That was me, ProbablyLast, and unoudid. Unoudid is good, with a 1.37 k/d, only slightly higher than yours, and me and ProbablyLast are near as makes no difference 1. With simple strategy, you can get it.

On Saturday, we'll be doing it again. I'll be willing to run it with you on that day if you want.

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I will. I think the combat is actually fun moment to moment. It's only the crushing ejection and missed rewards despite hours of gameplay that I dislike... so far. :)

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You should try PoE 35 this week. I think you will enjoy the teamwork required to pass the disease, move around the map, dismantle mines, and try not to get shot.

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With Prison of Elders, it is quite literally "should we stand over here or over there". There isn't much more to it than that.

Really? Then why have I already seen half a dozen guides for getting through the Qodron fight? (None of them say "stand here" - or at least, not even remotely exclusively.)

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With Prison of Elders, it is quite literally "should we stand over here or over there". There isn't much more to it than that.

Really? Then why have I already seen half a dozen guides for getting through the Qodron fight? (None of them say "stand here" - or at least, not even remotely exclusively.)

I'll have to do some looking, but that's pretty much all I've seen so far. "Stand over here while you kill stuff for the first but, the all go over here for the next bit, etc".

But to your point, the Quodron fight is light years beyond the rest of PoE in terms of complexity.

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But to your point, the Quodron fight is light years beyond the rest of PoE in terms of complexity.

And it's the second week of PoE. Bungie has said, more than once, that we haven't seen all there is. Why write a rant about how they dropped the ball before they show you the full playing field?

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But to your point, the Quodron fight is light years beyond the rest of PoE in terms of complexity.

And it's the second week of PoE. Bungie has said, more than once, that we haven't seen all there is. Why write a rant about how they dropped the ball before they show you the full playing field?

Because the scope of my post/rant was trying to cover a lot more than just Prison of Elders as a stand alone activity. Yes, I have problems with the game mode itself (including the design of the arenas themselves... something that will remain static even as they add different encounters). I am glad its here. But as a fan of both Destiny and Arena/Survival modes, I personally think PoE is a bit weak.

Plus a huge part of my post was discussing the way PoE has been positioned within Destiny's end game; the way it is the lone reliable way for PvE players to earn important new materials and gear.

*edit* Also just wanted to point out that I did comment in my OP that this is only the 2nd week (as you said) and we're already seeing repeats in the challenges. Struck me as a bit odd, that's all.

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But to your point, the Quodron fight is light years beyond the rest of PoE in terms of complexity.

And it's the second week of PoE. Bungie has said, more than once, that we haven't seen all there is. Why write a rant about how they dropped the ball before they show you the full playing field?

Because you can't just have a weak opening, and say "Oh hey, it gets better!". It needs to be fun day 1. And day 2. And day 3…

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But to your point, the Quodron fight is light years beyond the rest of PoE in terms of complexity.

And it's the second week of PoE. Bungie has said, more than once, that we haven't seen all there is. Why write a rant about how they dropped the ball before they show you the full playing field?

Because you can't just have a weak opening, and say "Oh hey, it gets better!". It needs to be fun day 1. And day 2. And day 3…

Oh, hey! Look who showed up?!

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But to your point, the Quodron fight is light years beyond the rest of PoE in terms of complexity.

And it's the second week of PoE. Bungie has said, more than once, that we haven't seen all there is. Why write a rant about how they dropped the ball before they show you the full playing field?

Because you can't just have a weak opening, and say "Oh hey, it gets better!". It needs to be fun day 1. And day 2. And day 3…

Oh, hey! Look who showed up?!

Because I know you missed me so much ;-p

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If the ultimate promise of Etheric Light is to allow us the freedom build our characters however we want, speced out for whatever activity we want, then it seems to me that a wider range of reliable ways to earn etheric light would be in keeping with the spirit of that goal.

The most reliable way to earn Etheric Light is actually in PoE. Everywhere else it's random (as far as I know).

The 6 wins package and 8 wins package in ToO gives a guaranteed Etheric Light, I believe. And the 9-0 chest on Mercury drops one too. That was how it worked for me.

Level 35 PoE is insane to me, I did not have any fun in it. Skolas was a huge ramp up in difficulty over Urrox. The Level 34 vs. Urrox was easy, but Qodron was not... Those are the only two guaranteed PoE drops of Etheric Light (The lvl 34 and 35), and to me it's less appealing than trying to get 8 wins on one ToO card for 2 Etheric light.

If they added Checkpoints to PoE, I would feel a lot better about it. I like taking breaks from tough boss fights... Which we can do in raids, but for PoE you have to do the whole freaking thing over again or just grind it out. Really unpleasant experience for me with Skolas.

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And I think that is how it should be. However, I think it's almost too easy to get both of these things. I think Etheric Light should actually be harder to get.

I haven't gotten a single one yet and I've done practically nothing but play Destiny since HoW came out. So getting it randomly is not looking good. As for the guaranteed method, even if I could run PoE level 34 reliably (which isn't the case yet - only one of my characters is at 33 and I have not run 34 PoE at all), the best-case scenario is 3 per week. At that rate I'll have all my items up to par in about 21 weeks, assuming I have 3 legendary items per weapon/armor slot (which, if anything, is a low estimate). That's assuming I do it 3 times a week, every week, without fail. Which isn't going to happen.

I'm not complaining, exactly - I'll get there when I get there. But I'm not sure what about that is too easy.

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And I think that is how it should be. However, I think it's almost too easy to get both of these things. I think Etheric Light should actually be harder to get.

I haven't gotten a single one yet and I've done practically nothing but play Destiny since HoW came out. So getting it randomly is not looking good. As for the guaranteed method, even if I could run PoE level 34 reliably (which isn't the case yet - only one of my characters is at 33 and I have not run 34 PoE at all), the best-case scenario is 3 per week. At that rate I'll have all my items up to par in about 21 weeks, assuming I have 3 legendary items per weapon/armor slot (which, if anything, is a low estimate). That's assuming I do it 3 times a week, every week, without fail. Which isn't going to happen.

I'm not complaining, exactly - I'll get there when I get there. But I'm not sure what about that is too easy.

I'm just saying, that I want it to be closer to on par with the RNG of raids. Because that is what the time frame was for leveling up in the last expansion. And as annoying as the RNG is, for the majority of players, it works to keep people playing and looking for better loot.

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I disagree with a couple things:

And the level 34 event contains several of the most frustrating encounters in Destiny... And the wave 5 boss? What a disaster.

My team of 3 34s went through it pretty fast and I had a lot of fun with it. We had two invis hunters and a titan. I liked that there were a couple boss fights. Enjoyed it all around.

No, the loot isn't very good. Unless, you have a Treasure key.

The treasure room is almost pointless once you have a bit of etheric light to spare. It looks so shiny and nice, but the drops from Skolas are what you really want.

I wholeheartedly agree with:

In Prison of Elders, you get 1 drop at the very end... This is an infuriating and demoralizing situation moment when it happens.

I'm forever scared that I'm going to get dropped or have to leave.. Xbox Live can konk out at any time, my son could wake up from a nightmare, etc.

But what about players who do make it through? It's gotta be worth it for them, right?
No, the loot isn't very good.

As I mentioned previously, the treasure room rewards are not good. I don't have any of the Skolas elemental primaries yet or new Skolas exotic weapons, so can't comment on their power. But all other weapons will probably turn into a mote.

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So what can be done?

The shining star of the House of Wolves expansion is Etheric Light. With this currency, we can take any gear we want and bring it up to max level. We can build out our characters however we like, to suit any playstyle. Awesome. If only etheric light wasn't such a pain in the ass to find.
Well actually, it isn't a pain to find at all... for PvP players. 1 hour of playing Trials of Osiris granted me 3 pieces of Etheric Light, plus 2 awesome new weapons, plus a great chest piece, and a fist full of other worthwhile rewards (coins, motes of light, plenty of glimmer).

I think this has to do with circumstances. I do not know a single person on Xbox One that has made it to the Lighthouse. I don't know if this means we have more skilled PvP players on PS4 in the forum, or if there is stiffer competition on Xbox in general, or even that there is more cheating going on on Xbox One, but it is NOT as easy as your experience suggests. I finished 4 ToO cards and the most wins I got was 3 (not counting the buffs), and I definitely am not bad at Crucible. I have a 1.5 k/d and over 60% win/loss rate, as well as friends I play with who generally we trade back and forth being the top of the leaderboard at the end of them game. ToO is no where close to as easy to get Etheric Light as it is in PoE. PoE you can finish a 34 in 1-2 hours almost guarenteed, and same with 35. That's 2 Etheric Light for just persevering and learning the scenarios. You can't do that with ToO, it's too random who you will be matched up with.

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So what can be done?

The shining star of the House of Wolves expansion is Etheric Light. With this currency, we can take any gear we want and bring it up to max level. We can build out our characters however we like, to suit any playstyle. Awesome. If only etheric light wasn't such a pain in the ass to find.
Well actually, it isn't a pain to find at all... for PvP players. 1 hour of playing Trials of Osiris granted me 3 pieces of Etheric Light, plus 2 awesome new weapons, plus a great chest piece, and a fist full of other worthwhile rewards (coins, motes of light, plenty of glimmer).

I think this has to do with circumstances. I do not know a single person on Xbox One that has made it to the Lighthouse. I don't know if this means we have more skilled PvP players on PS4 in the forum, or if there is stiffer competition on Xbox in general, or even that there is more cheating going on on Xbox One, but it is NOT as easy as your experience suggests. I finished 4 ToO cards and the most wins I got was 3 (not counting the buffs), and I definitely am not bad at Crucible. I have a 1.5 k/d and over 60% win/loss rate, as well as friends I play with who generally we trade back and forth being the top of the leaderboard at the end of them game. ToO is no where close to as easy to get Etheric Light as it is in PoE. PoE you can finish a 34 in 1-2 hours almost guarenteed, and same with 35. That's 2 Etheric Light for just persevering and learning the scenarios. You can't do that with ToO, it's too random who you will be matched up with.

I'm sure the overall player base is larger on the PS4 (larger install base, exclusive content, lack of much else on the PS4 ;p). In theory, that should mean that PS4 players are more easily matched against teams of similar skill levels. But I have no idea how that shakes out in practice.

Clearly, the DBO PS4 crew are just badasses ;)

Jokes aside, you are 100% correct that my ToO results were ideal. But let's look at the ideal PoE results: the best you can hope for from a 34 or 35 run is 1 etheric light (unless they also drop from the large chest... Do they?). So that's 1 every 1-2 hours vs 3 every hour-1.5 hours. On top of that, there are plenty of ways to spend a couple hours in PoE and walk away with NOTHING. At least with ToO you can get the other reward packages, buy weapons and armor, and get drops along the way.

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Jokes aside, you are 100% correct that my ToO results were ideal. But let's look at the ideal PoE results: the best you can hope for from a 34 or 35 run is 1 etheric light (unless they also drop from the large chest... Do they?). So that's 1 every 1-2 hours vs 3 every hour-1.5 hours. On top of that, there are plenty of ways to spend a couple hours in PoE and walk away with NOTHING. At least with ToO you can get the other reward packages, buy weapons and armor, and get drops along the way.

Right, but I ran ToO for 5 hours and walked away with nothing but strange coins and motes of light, which I could have gotten 4-5x as much from running PoE in matchmaking. I still didn't get the chest piece or etheric light so my 5 hours was way more wasted than if I had spent it on PoE. And I imagine my experience will be much more common than yours.

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Jokes aside, you are 100% correct that my ToO results were ideal. But let's look at the ideal PoE results: the best you can hope for from a 34 or 35 run is 1 etheric light (unless they also drop from the large chest... Do they?). So that's 1 every 1-2 hours vs 3 every hour-1.5 hours. On top of that, there are plenty of ways to spend a couple hours in PoE and walk away with NOTHING. At least with ToO you can get the other reward packages, buy weapons and armor, and get drops along the way.

Right, but I ran ToO for 5 hours and walked away with nothing but strange coins and motes of light, which I could have gotten 4-5x as much from running PoE in matchmaking. I still didn't get the chest piece or etheric light so my 5 hours was way more wasted than if I had spent it on PoE. And I imagine my experience will be much more common than yours.

You could very well be right. Just keep in mind that ToO is by its very nature a highly competitive mode. It absolutely will reward the best teams more fruitfully than those who don't do as well (as such, I'm sure it will only ever have niche appeal within the community).

On the flip side, I played Destiny PvE for 4 hours last night (nightfalls, 32 & 34 PoE) and walked away with nothing but an armor core. That just doesn't feel right to me.

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On the flip side, I played Destiny PvE for 4 hours last night (nightfalls, 32 & 34 PoE) and walked away with nothing but an armor core. That just doesn't feel right to me.

I don't think you remember the first week or two of the Vault of Glass dropping. Beating Vault of Glass took my first team almost 20 hours, most of which was against Atheon where we spent at least 4 hours trying to beat him (for which we were awarded nothing until we beat him). Once we figure out how to beat this week's 34 it WILL get easier, just like how Atheon got easier even before you'd leveled up your Raid gear.

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On the flip side, I played Destiny PvE for 4 hours last night (nightfalls, 32 & 34 PoE) and walked away with nothing but an armor core. That just doesn't feel right to me.

I don't think you remember the first week or two of the Vault of Glass dropping. Beating Vault of Glass took my first team almost 20 hours, most of which was against Atheon where we spent at least 4 hours trying to beat him (for which we were awarded nothing until we beat him). Once we figure out how to beat this week's 34 it WILL get easier, just like how Atheon got easier even before you'd leveled up your Raid gear.

I skipped that week ;)

Personally, with my time constraints, I knew I wouldn't have time to "enjoy" the process of solving the raids' puzzles. I chose to wait a week until players knew what they were supposed to do. For me, the challenge of executing was enough for me to get started. From there, it's the iteration of doing better each time, learning new techniques and new "plays" for each section... that's the stuff that keeps me coming back week after week.

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Personally, with my time constraints, I knew I wouldn't have time to "enjoy" the process of solving the raids' puzzles. I chose to wait a week until players knew what they were supposed to do. For me, the challenge of executing was enough for me to get started. From there, it's the iteration of doing better each time, learning new techniques and new "plays" for each section... that's the stuff that keeps me coming back week after week.

So I would recommend skipping the first 4 weeks then :)

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Personally, with my time constraints, I knew I wouldn't have time to "enjoy" the process of solving the raids' puzzles. I chose to wait a week until players knew what they were supposed to do. For me, the challenge of executing was enough for me to get started. From there, it's the iteration of doing better each time, learning new techniques and new "plays" for each section... that's the stuff that keeps me coming back week after week.

So I would recommend skipping the first 4 weeks then :)

We'll see... if players are doing anything substantially different with these PoE waves 4 weeks from now, I might have to eat a sock ;)

My bet is we'll mostly see the exact same strategies we're seeing right now (select PoE ninjas notwithstanding).

Also, it's worth mentioning that many Destiny players who did choose to go into the raids blind on day 1 still think of those runs as their favorite moments with Destiny, even all these months later. Purely anecdotal, but I haven't heard anyone say that about level 34 or 35 Prison of Elders :-/

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Personally, with my time constraints, I knew I wouldn't have time to "enjoy" the process of solving the raids' puzzles. I chose to wait a week until players knew what they were supposed to do. For me, the challenge of executing was enough for me to get started. From there, it's the iteration of doing better each time, learning new techniques and new "plays" for each section... that's the stuff that keeps me coming back week after week.

So I would recommend skipping the first 4 weeks then :)

We'll see... if players are doing anything substantially different with these PoE waves 4 weeks from now, I might have to eat a sock ;)

My bet is we'll mostly see the exact same strategies we're seeing right now (select PoE ninjas notwithstanding).

Also, it's worth mentioning that many Destiny players who did choose to go into the raids blind on day 1 still think of those runs as their favorite moments with Destiny, even all these months later. Purely anecdotal, but I haven't heard anyone say that about level 34 or 35 Prison of Elders :-/

This is true, but that is because of the nature of the game types. Raids are more puzzle oriented. PoE is more survival oriented. Yes, they mix on both regards, but they are what they are.

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We'll see... if players are doing anything substantially different with these PoE waves 4 weeks from now, I might have to eat a sock ;)

My bet is we'll mostly see the exact same strategies we're seeing right now (select PoE ninjas notwithstanding).

Well let me give you an example: the first time I played Urrox we died several times fighting him and struggled to kill him. This was mostly because even when we came up with a working strategy we hadn't fine tuned the execution. A few days later I wanted to test the theory that you could farm for the Elder Cipher, so we ran it 3 more times (and then I ran it on a second character one time the day later). For 3/4 runs we didn't wipe a single time, and it was fun! We had a blast! We didn't even get anything aside from the drops from the side chests, but I don't think any of us felt like it was a waste of time. This week we got rocked playing Qodron for about an hour before Chewbaccawaka had to go, but it looks like we were on the right track to figuring out the encounter. I fully expect that by the 2nd or 3rd time I beat Qodron it will be much less frustrating, just like Atheon.

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http://xboxclips.com/Funkmon/72edcce1-3254-444b-a7bc-caae2d2e3284

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I don't know if this means we have more skilled PvP players on PS4 in the forum, or if there is stiffer competition on Xbox in general

Most likely the latter. Remember that the Xbox brand has been known for competitive multiplayer games for more than a decade. Halo 1 revolutionized FPS for consoles. Halo 2 was a global online phenomenon. Halo 3 was a blockbuster. Most Call of Duty games had Xbox exclusive DLC timing so the hardcore gamers gravitated to Xbox. MLG was made for Xbox games. In contrast, Playstation has been known for single player campaigns and RPGs.

We noticed the vast difference in PvP skill during the Destiny beta. My clan was almost unopposed on PS4 during the beta, rolling for many games without a loss. On Xbox, it was a much closer on average and we had many more losses. So in addition to XBL population being more multiplayer focused, I think difference might be also be due to Xbox Live's Trueskill matching where PSN has no such thing that I know of. So you are more likely to get lopsided matches on PSN.

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All 1 hour in ToO did for me was make me want to avoid it completely this week. A dismal losing streak will break the hardest of constitutions.

I'll get back to it but i'll be apprehensive for sure. I know it's the main way to get Etheric Light though so I guess I have too.

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My least favorite thing is they added all this loot you can only use by playing Prison of Elders-- tokens of flight, tokens of identity, some other token, and treasure keys-- plus the passage coins you can only use for Trials of Osiris. You have to get lucky to even get these things, and then on top of that you have to be successful in something else (and get people together in the case of ToO or high-level PoE) for this stuff to be of any use-- I think it should be one or the other. You get lucky and you get rewarded, or you do well and you get rewarded, it shouldn't require both, especially if it's going to clog up my inventory (my materials are now full and my consumables are about to be).

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My least favorite thing is they added all this loot you can only use by playing Prison of Elders-- tokens of flight, tokens of identity, some other token, and treasure keys-- plus the passage coins you can only use for Trials of Osiris. You have to get lucky to even get these things, and then on top of that you have to be successful in something else (and get people together in the case of ToO or high-level PoE) for this stuff to be of any use-- I think it should be one or the other. You get lucky and you get rewarded, or you do well and you get rewarded, it shouldn't require both, especially if it's going to clog up my inventory (my materials are now full and my consumables are about to be).

"Help, I'm swimming in all this gold - this isn't fair!"

Seriously though, you said "You get lucky and you get rewarded, or you do well and you get rewarded, it shouldn't require both"

I had to laugh. ;-)

- m

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...
The shining star of the House of Wolves expansion is Etheric Light. With this currency, we can take any gear we want and bring it up to max level. We can build out our characters however we like, to suit any playstyle. Awesome. If only etheric light wasn't such a pain in the ass to find.
Well actually, it isn't a pain to find at all... for PvP players. 1 hour of playing Trials of Osiris granted me 3 pieces of Etheric Light, plus 2 awesome new weapons, plus a great chest piece, and a fist full of other worthwhile rewards (coins, motes of light, plenty of glimmer). And that was just 1 play through with a single character. If I run ToO every week with multiple characters, plus the Iron Banner once a month, I'll get a nice steady flow of Etheric Light and plenty of great gear drops along the way. And even when I'm not playing ToO or Iron Banner, standard crucible matches now dish out rewards at a fantastic rate. Last week, 2 hours of the skirmish playlist got me 3 great new legendary weapons.

I think Bungie needs take this approach and apply it to PvE end content. I've run 6 nightfalls and 3 raids since House of Wolves dropped... not a single piece of Etheric Light. I earned better gear in less time playing Skirmish than I did by completing all 3 nightfalls this week.

If the ultimate promise of Etheric Light is to allow us the freedom build our characters however we want, speced out for whatever activity we want, then it seems to me that a wider range of reliable ways to earn etheric light would be in keeping with the spirit of that goal. They should still be rare, just not as rare as they are now. Make them slightly more common drops during raids, nightfalls, and daily/weekly heroics. Perhaps 1 guaranteed piece of etheric light every time we rank up our Queen's rep. Let us treat Prison of Elders as the occasional diversion that it really is, rather than forcing it into the prime-time spotlight as the primary end game activity.

Phew... ok... I think I'm done.

Yeah. (◕︵◕)

I haven't played any of the extra bits of Prison of Elders, as I mentioned recently. I also haven't posted anything big in a while - mostly because to do so in a through manner takes time that I don't have. Yet for that last few months I've been able to jump into Destiny, I've had this thought rattling around in my brain. I'm not really sure where it came from right now, or the actual cause - nor do I have anything to back it up with at the moment. Yet I have had this thought, that has a certain taint for hyperbole upon it, that has given me serious pause in considering whether or not I should even bother playing Destiny anymore.

This thought is - Bungie hates PVE. Total nonsense... right? If you concur, then I agree. Yet I can't shake it. Bungie hates PVE.

I do my best to consider all the variables, including any possible perceptual variables that could skew the end result, towards creating a final conclusion. It's the scientist in me. Furthermore I'm a very very patient individual, yet I can feel it start to grow thin. At this point It's almost like... I have to do their job to make the game (which I suppose I could in a few circles). At eight and a half months in shouldn’t we be talking about how much fun we are having? Instead we keep getting threads about gaming theory!

Of course... this is the part where I post my long thread. This is the part where I take total nonsense and show where it's coming from so it can make some sense. Again - this would take time. Again- I can't. Things to do. Sorry.

Thank you for your post CruelLEGACEY.

Maybe... just maybe... that PVE showing wasn't a fluke after all.

I don’t know.

I guess I’m going to have to find some time and type out that thesis now. :P

(I think this is the saltiest post I've made... in a long while... I must be really tired.)

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The shining star of the House of Wolves expansion is Etheric Light. With this currency, we can take any gear we want and bring it up to max level. We can build out our characters however we like, to suit any playstyle. Awesome.

I think the beauty of this expansion is, really, that you don't need to be at max level to enjoy it.

You did need to be max level to enjoy the very endmost of end game content in previous iterations, and that hasn't changed. If you want to play ToO or 34/35 PoE, yeah, you need to be 34, with some synergy in armor perks.

But if you want to play Prison of Elders, the barrier to entry is way, way lower. If you wanted to raid in Vanilla/TDB destiny, you didn't just need to be at the appropriate level cap. You also needed something even harder to get: 5 teammates on the same schedule.

That might not seem so bad to people who raid a lot, be it via LFG or here with the fireteam builder. But for people with social anxiety, or with a small group of friends with similar schedules, this is a gamechanger. Not because it's a raid alternative: because it's a strike alternative. And not just strike playlists. Nightfall has an alternative for the peeps out there who rarely raid but can put together a nightfall run.

And this content is harder than a nightfall. It's more varied, and it requires far more strategy. I think Bungie looked at strike playlist populations against raid populations and decided that this content was necessary. It might not be for people who raid frequently, and yes, that sucks for you folks. But Prison of Elders is for the underserved majority of players who can't raid frequently, for whatever reason, and I think there's more of them out there. It's the sort of content that Destiny really, really lacks, and this is absolutely the sort of thing that should be Bungie's first priority.

(For the record, I've played more PoE runs 28-34 in just this first week than I ever managed to raid ever, and enjoyed the game more for it).

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And this content is harder than a nightfall. It's more varied, and it requires far more strategy.

Not sure I'm with you on that point... I think that maybe the nightfalls require coordination and strategic teamwork, but it we already have a lot of it down because we've run the strikes so many times?

I think Bungie looked at strike playlist populations against raid populations and decided that this content was necessary. It might not be for people who raid frequently, and yes, that sucks for you folks. But Prison of Elders is for the underserved majority of players who can't raid frequently, for whatever reason, and I think there's more of them out there. It's the sort of content that Destiny really, really lacks, and this is absolutely the sort of thing that should be Bungie's first priority.

100% with you there. I've said before that PoE feels like something that really should have been in the game from the start. My main problems are:

a) I don't think PoE is a particularly fun or well designed arena mode. I think lots of other games do the arena/horde mode activity way better.

and

b) I don't like the way PoE has been made the lone dependable way for PvE players to earn Etheric Light. I wish I could just play PoE whenever I felt like having some casual fun, rather than needing to grind it repeatedly in order to get Etheric Light and enjoy the new upgrade systems.

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b) I don't like the way PoE has been made the lone dependable way for PvE players to earn Etheric Light. I wish I could just play PoE whenever I felt like having some casual fun, rather than needing to grind it repeatedly in order to get Etheric Light and enjoy the new upgrade systems.

This is what I don't get. Why do you need etheric light, if you aren't playing PoE?

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b) I don't like the way PoE has been made the lone dependable way for PvE players to earn Etheric Light. I wish I could just play PoE whenever I felt like having some casual fun, rather than needing to grind it repeatedly in order to get Etheric Light and enjoy the new upgrade systems.

This is what I don't get. Why do you need etheric light, if you aren't playing PoE?

A few reasons. I'm not a huge PvP player, but I go hard during the Iron Banner, so I want to have top-level gear to remain competitive. Same goes for Trials of Osiris.

I also ran Crota hard mode with my 33 Hunter (she's now 34) using a 365 Fatebringer, Black Hammer, and Gjallarhorn... and it was a blast! Hard mode crota felt fair for the first time. Still a great challenge, and your teamwork needs to be bang on, but it's not quite the exercise in punishment absorption that it used to be :)

Beyond that... because it's the only goal left? I love playing Destiny for the mechanics, but it is nice to feel like you are working towards something. Some kind of tangible progress helps. Right now, upgrading the gear I've got is pretty much all I can do (I don't actually have room for much new gear, so collecting all the new stuff is out of the question).

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b) I don't like the way PoE has been made the lone dependable way for PvE players to earn Etheric Light. I wish I could just play PoE whenever I felt like having some casual fun, rather than needing to grind it repeatedly in order to get Etheric Light and enjoy the new upgrade systems.

This is what I don't get. Why do you need etheric light, if you aren't playing PoE?

A few reasons. I'm not a huge PvP player, but I go hard during the Iron Banner, so I want to have top-level gear to remain competitive. Same goes for Trials of Osiris.

I also ran Crota hard mode with my 33 Hunter (she's now 34) using a 365 Fatebringer, Black Hammer, and Gjallarhorn... and it was a blast! Hard mode crota felt fair for the first time. Still a great challenge, and your teamwork needs to be bang on, but it's not quite the exercise in punishment absorption that it used to be :)

Beyond that... because it's the only goal left? I love playing Destiny for the mechanics, but it is nice to feel like you are working towards something. Some kind of tangible progress helps. Right now, upgrading the gear I've got is pretty much all I can do (I don't actually have room for much new gear, so collecting all the new stuff is out of the question).

So you want etheric light to make the actual challenges in the game...less challenging? So you can collect stuff?

What impels you completionist folks to this? It boggles my mind. I thought the point of this game was to shoot aliens, not play Army-Surplus Pokemon. If and when the game stops offering me enjoyable new ways to put bullets in aliens, I will stop playing it. I can't get my head around this.

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A few reasons. I'm not a huge PvP player, but I go hard during the Iron Banner, so I want to have top-level gear to remain competitive. Same goes for Trials of Osiris.

I also ran Crota hard mode with my 33 Hunter (she's now 34) using a 365 Fatebringer, Black Hammer, and Gjallarhorn... and it was a blast! Hard mode crota felt fair for the first time. Still a great challenge, and your teamwork needs to be bang on, but it's not quite the exercise in punishment absorption that it used to be :)

Beyond that... because it's the only goal left? I love playing Destiny for the mechanics, but it is nice to feel like you are working towards something. Some kind of tangible progress helps. Right now, upgrading the gear I've got is pretty much all I can do (I don't actually have room for much new gear, so collecting all the new stuff is out of the question).

So you want etheric light to make the actual challenges in the game...less challenging? So you can collect stuff?

What impels you completionist folks to this? It boggles my mind. I thought the point of this game was to shoot aliens, not play Army-Surplus Pokemon. If and when the game stops offering me enjoyable new ways to put bullets in aliens, I will stop playing it. I can't get my head around this.

It's not just the completionist tendencies (which I fully admit are there for me, but I do my best not to let them dictate how I spend my time).

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. . . I thought the point of this game was to shoot aliens, not play Army-Surplus Pokemon. . .

+1 for this.

I have been guilty of playing some Army-Surplus Pokemon over the last several months, but I am striving more and more to forget about that aspect of the game because I have found it much more enjoyable to just focus on shooting aliens in the face with friends -- even if the arenas in which I am doing so are not perfect. It's the playing with friends part, and the shooting aliens in the face part, that keep me coming back, so it makes me a bit discouraged when some of my go-to fireteam-mates are basically saying they have no desire to do that with me if it means playing a certain game mode.

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. . . I thought the point of this game was to shoot aliens, not play Army-Surplus Pokemon. . .

+1 for this.

I have been guilty of playing some Army-Surplus Pokemon over the last several months, but I am striving more and more to forget about that aspect of the game because I have found it much more enjoyable to just focus on shooting aliens in the face with friends -- even if the arenas in which I am doing so are not perfect. It's the playing with friends part, and the shooting aliens in the face part, that keep me coming back, so it makes me a bit discouraged when some of my go-to fireteam-mates are basically saying they have no desire to do that with me if it means playing a certain game mode.

I'm completely with you when it comes to having fun with friends above all else. I can't speak for anyone else, but if you're ever online and looking for someone to run PoE with you, count me in.

All of my ranting and complaining about PoE is just coming from a place of total dissatisfaction with the goals and activities that top-level PvE players have been given with House of Wolves. I feel like we've been waiting months and months for new content to drop, and now that it's here it really took the wind out of my sails. So I'm a bit discouraged about Destiny in terms of having activities that I look forward to and goals that I'm working towards, but none of that will stop me from jumping online to shoot aliens with friends :)

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b) I don't like the way PoE has been made the lone dependable way for PvE players to earn Etheric Light. I wish I could just play PoE whenever I felt like having some casual fun, rather than needing to grind it repeatedly in order to get Etheric Light and enjoy the new upgrade systems.

This is what I don't get. Why do you need etheric light, if you aren't playing PoE?

This thread is priceless. To think, just a couple days ago Cruel was bragging about his 9-0 streak and all his new loot.

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I went back and double checked Cruel's ToO Post. The only reward he mentions is Lighthouse Access. He's a pretty humble guy.

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b) I don't like the way PoE has been made the lone dependable way for PvE players to earn Etheric Light. I wish I could just play PoE whenever I felt like having some casual fun, rather than needing to grind it repeatedly in order to get Etheric Light and enjoy the new upgrade systems.

This is what I don't get. Why do you need etheric light, if you aren't playing PoE?

This thread is priceless. To think, just a couple days ago Cruel was bragging about his 9-0 streak and all his new loot.

Not sure I follow... I wrote a post about how much I loved Trials of Osiris (I wasn't really bragging about loot at all). Now I'm expressing concerns over another game mode.

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b) I don't like the way PoE has been made the lone dependable way for PvE players to earn Etheric Light. I wish I could just play PoE whenever I felt like having some casual fun, rather than needing to grind it repeatedly in order to get Etheric Light and enjoy the new upgrade systems.

This is what I don't get. Why do you need etheric light, if you aren't playing PoE?

This thread is priceless. To think, just a couple days ago Cruel was bragging about his 9-0 streak and all his new loot.

Not sure I follow... I wrote a post about how much I loved Trials of Osiris (I wasn't really bragging about loot at all). Now I'm expressing concerns over another game mode.

Banana's comment made me laugh. You already have light enough to hit level 34 and upgrade several weapons. There is no need to grind PoE for more light unless you want to kill more 34/35s in PoE. These are Pokemon instincts, as someone said. There is no need to have guns do MORE damage to atheon. Heck, purists might say that the fight was intended to use 300s and we should do it that way.

You're right about the bragging, I should delete the "and all his new loot." That was someone else. Things in life people don't want to hear about: your boatloads of money, your fantasy football lineup, your incredible metabolism that lets you eat so many donuts... your destiny loot. "Your" is the important word there because people love to talk about my money, my donuts, my loot.

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You're right about the bragging, I should delete the "and all his new loot." That was someone else. Things in life people don't want to hear about: your boatloads of money, your fantasy football lineup, your incredible metabolism that lets you eat so many donuts... your destiny loot. "Your" is the important word there because people love to talk about my money, my donuts, my loot.

I will never get tired of hearing about anyone's fantasy football lineup. There. I said it.

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I will never get tired of hearing about anyone's fantasy football lineup. There. I said it.

My Fantasy Football Lineup

Quarter Back: Thor
Wide Receiver: The Doctor
Running Back: The Flash
Offensive Linemen: Juggernaught, Hulk, Balrog, Godzilla
Defensive Lineman: Gandalf (YOU. SHALL. NOT. PASS!)
Tight End: Mr. Fantastic

Too bad Superman was kicked out for accidentally breaking that guy's ribs with the ball.

Am I doing this right?

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I will never get tired of hearing about anyone's fantasy football lineup. There. I said it.

My Fantasy Football Lineup

Quarter Back: Thor
Wide Receiver: The Doctor
Running Back: The Flash
Offensive Linemen: Juggernaught, Hulk, Balrog, Godzilla
Defensive Lineman: Gandalf (YOU. SHALL. NOT. PASS!)
Tight End: Mr. Fantastic

Too bad Superman was kicked out for accidentally breaking that guy's ribs with the ball.

Am I doing this right?

Looks good, but I have serious concerns about Mr. Fantastic's ability to block in passing situations. He's just to easy to stretch. Speaking of, the whole O-line, while full of NFL size players, lacks discipline and may not be able to handle experienced rushers.

Lastly, Gandalf was great until the first play when he sacrificed himself preventing a bootleg run. Haven't seen him since.

Still, this should be a playoff contender; I put your odds at 80%. Try to pick up Black Bolt off of waivers if he's still available in your league. He's got skillz.

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Looks good, but I have serious concerns about Mr. Fantastic's ability to block in passing situations.

I figure he can just grab the stands on either side, the only concern being if they stretch him enough to make it into the end zone anyway.

Lastly, Gandalf was great until the first play when he sacrificed himself preventing a bootleg run. Haven't seen him since.

It's okay though, he always shows back up in the 4th quarter, and seems to be much more serious for some reason.

Still, this should be a playoff contender; I put your odds at 80%. Try to pick up Black Bolt off of waivers if he's still available in your league. He's got skillz.

Good call! I'll have to watch for him.

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Banana's comment made me laugh. You already have light enough to hit level 34 and upgrade several weapons. There is no need to grind PoE for more light unless you want to kill more 34/35s in PoE. These are Pokemon instincts, as someone said. There is no need to have guns do MORE damage to atheon. Heck, purists might say that the fight was intended to use 300s and we should do it that way.

So there's something wrong with wanting to upgrade my weapons further?

All along, Destiny's main hook for player progression has been to give us ways to make our Guardians more powerful. Now I'm suddenly in the wrong because I want to keep doing that?

Not to mention the fact that as someone who plays a lot of Iron Banner (and now Trials of Osiris, too) I actually DO need to upgrade some gear just to stay competitive?

Even if that wasn't the case... Maybe I want to use certain weapons that have been left in the dust by the expansions? I love my Atheon's Epilogue, but the 300 version just doesn't hit hard enough for me to use it during more difficult missions.

Sorry if I seem a little aggregated, but I take issue with people saying "you're silly for wanting to upgrade your gear" in a game that is 80% about the grind to make your character more powerful.

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Banana's comment made me laugh. You already have light enough to hit level 34 and upgrade several weapons. There is no need to grind PoE for more light unless you want to kill more 34/35s in PoE. These are Pokemon instincts, as someone said. There is no need to have guns do MORE damage to atheon. Heck, purists might say that the fight was intended to use 300s and we should do it that way.

So there's something wrong with wanting to upgrade my weapons further?

All along, Destiny's main hook for player progression has been to give us ways to make our Guardians more powerful. Now I'm suddenly in the wrong because I want to keep doing that?

Not to mention the fact that as someone who plays a lot of Iron Banner (and now Trials of Osiris, too) I actually DO need to upgrade some gear just to stay competitive?

Even if that wasn't the case... Maybe I want to use certain weapons that have been left in the dust by the expansions? I love my Atheon's Epilogue, but the 300 version just doesn't hit hard enough for me to use it during more difficult missions.

Sorry if I seem a little aggregated, but I take issue with people saying "you're silly for wanting to upgrade your gear" in a game that is 80% about the grind to make your character more powerful.

To me, actually.

Specifically, this:

If you have weapons maxed out to 300, you are ready for level 30 content, which is where this expansion starts. Over the course of the expansion, you will find new, better gear to carry you towards 32.

I just don't understand the mentality that everything we already have should suddenly be made better. What's the point of an expansion if everything we already have just gets boosted up to max level?

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Banana's comment made me laugh. You already have light enough to hit level 34 and upgrade several weapons. There is no need to grind PoE for more light unless you want to kill more 34/35s in PoE. These are Pokemon instincts, as someone said. There is no need to have guns do MORE damage to atheon. Heck, purists might say that the fight was intended to use 300s and we should do it that way.

So there's something wrong with wanting to upgrade my weapons further?

All along, Destiny's main hook for player progression has been to give us ways to make our Guardians more powerful. Now I'm suddenly in the wrong because I want to keep doing that?

Not to mention the fact that as someone who plays a lot of Iron Banner (and now Trials of Osiris, too) I actually DO need to upgrade some gear just to stay competitive?

Even if that wasn't the case... Maybe I want to use certain weapons that have been left in the dust by the expansions? I love my Atheon's Epilogue, but the 300 version just doesn't hit hard enough for me to use it during more difficult missions.

Sorry if I seem a little aggregated, but I take issue with people saying "you're silly for wanting to upgrade your gear" in a game that is 80% about the grind to make your character more powerful.

To me, actually.

Specifically, this:

If you have weapons maxed out to 300, you are ready for level 30 content, which is where this expansion starts. Over the course of the expansion, you will find new, better gear to carry you towards 32.

I just don't understand the mentality that everything we already have should suddenly be made better. What's the point of an expansion if everything we already have just gets boosted up to max level?

Yep, my thoughts on this have changed since then, for a few reasons.

1) Back then, I didn't have much gear so I wasn't as precious about the stuff I had.

2) I hadn't spent MONTHS acquiring and upgrading a set of weapons that I really enjoy using.

3) I had room to acquire new gear without trashing old gear, which is no longer the case

So that's just where I'm coming from now :)

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Banana's comment made me laugh. You already have light enough to hit level 34 and upgrade several weapons. There is no need to grind PoE for more light unless you want to kill more 34/35s in PoE. These are Pokemon instincts, as someone said. There is no need to have guns do MORE damage to atheon. Heck, purists might say that the fight was intended to use 300s and we should do it that way.

So there's something wrong with wanting to upgrade my weapons further?

All along, Destiny's main hook for player progression has been to give us ways to make our Guardians more powerful. Now I'm suddenly in the wrong because I want to keep doing that?

Not to mention the fact that as someone who plays a lot of Iron Banner (and now Trials of Osiris, too) I actually DO need to upgrade some gear just to stay competitive?

Even if that wasn't the case... Maybe I want to use certain weapons that have been left in the dust by the expansions? I love my Atheon's Epilogue, but the 300 version just doesn't hit hard enough for me to use it during more difficult missions.

Sorry if I seem a little aggregated, but I take issue with people saying "you're silly for wanting to upgrade your gear" in a game that is 80% about the grind to make your character more powerful.

To me, actually.

Specifically, this:

If you have weapons maxed out to 300, you are ready for level 30 content, which is where this expansion starts. Over the course of the expansion, you will find new, better gear to carry you towards 32.

I just don't understand the mentality that everything we already have should suddenly be made better. What's the point of an expansion if everything we already have just gets boosted up to max level?

Yep, my thoughts on this have changed since then, for a few reasons.

1) Back then, I didn't have much gear so I wasn't as precious about the stuff I had.

2) I hadn't spent MONTHS acquiring and upgrading a set of weapons that I really enjoy using.

3) I had room to acquire new gear without trashing old gear, which is no longer the case

So that's just where I'm coming from now :)

I will admit this: while I don't understand your need to upgrade, I do understand your need to collect.

That collection is complete now by the way.

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It's a slippery slope, isn't it? I have a real compulsion for things that go in "sets" together. I've caught myself hanging on to gear that I'll never use, just because it's part of a set. "I can't delete that Dead Orbit hand cannon, it's part of my Dead Orbit collection!". Which is beyond silly ;p
I've managed to mostly curb that tendency, but the instinct is always there lol

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I mostly agree with this line of thought. There are some pre-TDB weapons I would like to ascend to make them useful again. I recently ascended my swarm for instance.

People may also want to just wear gear sets they like - destiny fashion. It's hard to wear gear sets you want at level 34 (full dead orbit for instance) when its so difficult to get etheric light. Its the new bottleneck. Until it becomes easier to ascend gear, everyone will still end up having nearly the same armor sets (PoE/Osiris level 42 gear) as it is too much effort to bring variety from ascending.

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I mostly agree with this line of thought. There are some pre-TDB weapons I would like to ascend to make them useful again. I recently ascended my swarm for instance.

People may also want to just wear gear sets they like - destiny fashion. It's hard to wear gear sets you want at level 34 (full dead orbit for instance) when its so difficult to get etheric light. Its the new bottleneck. Until it becomes easier to ascend gear, everyone will still end up having nearly the same armor sets (PoE/Osiris level 42 gear) as it is too much effort to bring variety from ascending.

I think what we'll see the most of is people racing to 34, the switching their focus to weapons. At the rate I'm acquiring Etheric Light it will probably take a few months for me to upgrade the weapons I want to, then I'll go back to upgrading more armor.

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People may also want to just wear gear sets they like - destiny fashion. It's hard to wear gear sets you want at level 34 (full dead orbit for instance) when its so difficult to get etheric light. Its the new bottleneck. Until it becomes easier to ascend gear, everyone will still end up having nearly the same armor sets (PoE/Osiris level 42 gear) as it is too much effort to bring variety from ascending.

I think what we'll see the most of is people racing to 34, the switching their focus to weapons. At the rate I'm acquiring Etheric Light it will probably take a few months for me to upgrade the weapons I want to, then I'll go back to upgrading more armor.

I believe this is intentional to make it so people try out the new weapons. If you could get 10 etheric light in the first week I doubt many people would try many new weapons if you already loved your old weapons. I never would've gotten my Rapier for example if during TDB I could've just upgraded my Fatebringer to 331.

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Before, people either had to play a lot of Iron Banner or a untold, random number of Raids to get to max level. Assuming the PoE armor pieces don't repeat before we get a full set, you just need four 1ish hour sessions to max your level. It completely fixes that "forever 28" problem Destiny had before HoW. Raids will always be king of strategy and teamwork but I agree, the Prison of Elders is a great starting point and resource to help lead the majority players into the even higher level content. And the great part is, we also know that there will be another Raid in the future as well!

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your argument that RNG based loot drops are bad in PoE and chests because you didn't get a Key or good loot, but RNG based loot drops are good from Raids and ToO because you did get lots of raid gear and Etheric Lights is a terrible argument.

RNG based loot is AWFUL. Period.

For each of your "I got loot so it must be okay" I've got an "I didn't get loot; it's not okay."

Vault of Glass: I've cleared this at least 20 times. I've gotten 1 Praedith's Revenge. 2 Hezen's vengeance. 1 boots. 5 chests. 9 fucking cloaks. THAT'S IT. That is 100% of the loot I've gotten from VoG that isn't shards.

Crota's End: I didn't get my third piece of set armor until February despite running the raid every single week since it came out. I was level 31 in my raid group's hardmode runs for over a month because of bullshit RNG loot.

ToO: I played just as much as you did and I got 1 chest armor and an emblem. My buddy who I played with got absolutely nothing in that same amount of time.

The raid loot system is every bit as bad as the ToO loot which is every bit as bad as the key from chest system which is every bit as bad as the RNG loot from PoE system. They're all bad because they're all totally random. RNG = fail when it comes to loot system design.

Now, to address your very valid points about game mechanics: PoE level design sucks because the AI sucks. The strategy is always exactly as you described, regardless of the numbers of enemies, the types of enemies, the faction of enemies, or whether or not a boss is up. The encounter "design" is awful, but that's systemic from the enemy design and their AI scripting. As a result, the boss mechanics feel tacked on to an endless flow of enemies with frustratingly large amounts of health.

The AI isn't reactive, really, so there's no benefit to defensive positions, high ground, or covering fire. There's no fog of war or line of sign obfuscation in the game at all. The enemies don't work as a team, ever. Staggering attacks aren't predictable enough to use in coordinated attacks. The enemies shoot so often that PoE feels more like an FPS bullet hell game than like a strategic wave survival FPS mode.

I don't *hate* the game mode, but I feel about it the same way that I feel about Destiny as a whole: It has potential, but there's no real substance there and I'm rapidly tiring of it.

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your argument that RNG based loot drops are bad in PoE and chests because you didn't get a Key or good loot, but RNG based loot drops are good from Raids and ToO because you did get lots of raid gear and Etheric Lights is a terrible argument.

That's night quite what I was trying to say. I agree that the RNG system can be very frustrating, across the board. But I feel that the raids got away with it (to an extent) because when one of those really specially pieces of raid gear did drop, it usually feels worth it (or at the very least, your enthusiasm for your new toy overwhelms your frustration at how long it took to drop for you). On top of that, the rewards for Raids (and ToO) are staggered... you can complete some of the activity, get stuck, call it quits, and still walk away with something. Even if it's not what you were hoping for, you have a chance of a decent drop at several points on the way through. PoE gives you absolutely nothing until it is 100% complete, which causes problems. And even then, aside from Etheric Light, the rewards aren't particularly worthwhile.

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PoE gives you absolutely nothing until it is 100% complete, which causes problems. And even then, aside from Etheric Light, the rewards aren't particularly worthwhile.

My one thought here is that you can hate the RNG, or you can hate the loot, but it makes no sense to hate both. I think what you really hate is the RNG, since the possible loot is (AFAIK) near limitless in possibility. My friend pulled his first Gjallarhorn from that chest, and I pulled a Truth along side him. Granted, I sharded the Truth because I already have it, but it still showed some promising results. If those can be pulled, I'm pretty sure the possibilities are high. Now, RNG may screw you out of it either by chance, but I don't think it's the loot that's a problem.

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PoE gives you absolutely nothing until it is 100% complete, which causes problems. And even then, aside from Etheric Light, the rewards aren't particularly worthwhile.

My one thought here is that you can hate the RNG, or you can hate the loot, but it makes no sense to hate both. I think what you really hate is the RNG, since the possible loot is (AFAIK) near limitless in possibility.

To be clear, I'm not talking about the extra loot chest that requires a key to open (since the keys are a nightmare to find and introduce a whole separate problem). I'm talking about the rewards you get for completing the activity. To my knowledge, those rewards include blue engrams, motes, coins, glimmer, and Queen's weapons, plus armor cores and weapons cores used to purchase fallen-themed gear from the tower vendor. The big issue here is the Queen's weapons and fallen gear; none of it holds a candle to some of the raid weapons.
Plus, the raids both give 2 chances at an exotic each. PoE only gives 1, and only if you have a key.

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To be clear, I'm not talking about the extra loot chest that requires a key to open (since the keys are a nightmare to find and introduce a whole separate problem). I'm talking about the rewards you get for completing the activity. To my knowledge, those rewards include blue engrams, motes, coins, glimmer, and Queen's weapons, plus armor cores and weapons cores used to purchase fallen-themed gear from the tower vendor. The big issue here is the Queen's weapons and fallen gear; none of it holds a candle to some of the raid weapons.
Plus, the raids both give 2 chances at an exotic each. PoE only gives 1, and only if you have a key.

At 35 you get an elemental primary (which has a random element instead of set element, which I think is awesome!) just for beating Skolas (no key required from what I've read) as well as the same chance you get from 34 of getting the Elder Cipher. The key chest will also give some exclusive, but non-gear/weapon items.

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To be clear, I'm not talking about the extra loot chest that requires a key to open (since the keys are a nightmare to find and introduce a whole separate problem). I'm talking about the rewards you get for completing the activity. To my knowledge, those rewards include blue engrams, motes, coins, glimmer, and Queen's weapons, plus armor cores and weapons cores used to purchase fallen-themed gear from the tower vendor. The big issue here is the Queen's weapons and fallen gear; none of it holds a candle to some of the raid weapons.
Plus, the raids both give 2 chances at an exotic each. PoE only gives 1, and only if you have a key.

At 35 you get an elemental primary just for beating Skolas (no key required from what I've read) as well as the same chance you get from 34 of getting the Elder Cipher. The key chest will also give some exclusive, but non-gear/weapon items.

You're both at least partly wrong. The Queen's weapons are only in the Big Chest, and I never received a fallen weapon of any sort after beating Skolas last week, never mind an elemental primary.

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Sorry, meant to say you have a CHANCE of getting a primary elemental weapon. I know you can as I've watched videos of people getting them.

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The right hand chest in PoE can hand out Exotics. I got a MIDA Multi-Tool from it once.

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your argument that RNG based loot drops are bad in PoE and chests because you didn't get a Key or good loot, but RNG based loot drops are good from Raids and ToO because you did get lots of raid gear and Etheric Lights is a terrible argument.

RNG based loot is AWFUL. Period.

For each of your "I got loot so it must be okay" I've got an "I didn't get loot; it's not okay."

Vault of Glass: I've cleared this at least 20 times. I've gotten 1 Praedith's Revenge. 2 Hezen's vengeance. 1 boots. 5 chests. 9 fucking cloaks. THAT'S IT. That is 100% of the loot I've gotten from VoG that isn't shards.

Crota's End: I didn't get my third piece of set armor until February despite running the raid every single week since it came out. I was level 31 in my raid group's hardmode runs for over a month because of bullshit RNG loot.

ToO: I played just as much as you did and I got 1 chest armor and an emblem. My buddy who I played with got absolutely nothing in that same amount of time.

The raid loot system is every bit as bad as the ToO loot which is every bit as bad as the key from chest system which is every bit as bad as the RNG loot from PoE system. They're all bad because they're all totally random. RNG = fail when it comes to loot system design.

--

Now, to address your very valid points about game mechanics: PoE level design sucks because the AI sucks. The strategy is always exactly as you described, regardless of the numbers of enemies, the types of enemies, the faction of enemies, or whether or not a boss is up. The encounter "design" is awful, but that's systemic from the enemy design and their AI scripting. As a result, the boss mechanics feel tacked on to an endless flow of enemies with frustratingly large amounts of health.

The AI isn't reactive, really, so there's no benefit to defensive positions, high ground, or covering fire. There's no fog of war or line of sign obfuscation in the game at all. The enemies don't work as a team, ever. Staggering attacks aren't predictable enough to use in coordinated attacks. The enemies shoot so often that PoE feels more like an FPS bullet hell game than like a strategic wave survival FPS mode.

I don't *hate* the game mode, but I feel about it the same way that I feel about Destiny as a whole: It has potential, but there's no real substance there and I'm rapidly tiring of it.

I wish I could discover the percentage of your posts where you use the word "hate" or "AWFUL" or "fail" or words to that effect in regards to the RNG. Seems pretty high. I think we get it.

I'd also say you've been unbelievably unlucky in terms of loot drops. I've done the raids about 30 times per platform (more VoG than Crota, but I don't know the breakdown). On the Xbox, I've got all raid armor for my primary and every weapon you can imagine. (The vast majority of that was with my primary, who has done only 22 raids.) On my PS4 I've got all raid armor for my primary and most raid weapons. I'm missing the big three--Fatebringer, Gjallerhorn, Vex, and the PS exclusives, but I'm not complaining.

Destiny is fun.

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It's probably 100% of my posts about RNG based loot systems, honestly. I'm not a generally negative person, but I am a passionate one, and that passion gets the better of me in my posts most of the time.

I agree that I'm an outlier in terms of how bad the RNG loot drops hate me, but any time you have RNG-based anything, you'll have outliers like me. Flip a coin X times, and out of any group of 2^X people, you'll statistically have someone who got heads 100% of the time and someone who got tails 100% of the time. There are millions of people who play Destiny, so it is likely that there are players who have never received an exotic after a nightfall, ever.

I'm of the opinion that loot systems need to account for outliers and include a raid loot counter that guarantees rewards every X raids in order to correct for the possibility of RNG-screwage. I also support 2-for-1 trade item X for item Y that could also drop from that boss vendor systems. The armor and weapon tokens in PoE are actually a good step in the right direction since you can see the item you're going to be getting ahead of time and decide if the prison is worth running or not, but their marriage to the RNG loot factory in the form of the Key and Key Chest sort of undermines any sense that the RNG based loot system is actually changing for the better in the game.

I do have some fun playing Destiny, but it gets frustrating very quickly. I think it all stems from how the game's positive feedback loop works: The "reward" in the game is almost always loot. Initially, it's loot and character progression, but all character progression ends at level 20. Sometimes it's compelling gameplay (and when it is, the loot reward forces repetition of that gameplay to the point that it eventually becomes stale). It's not story (though the expansions have been getting progressively more coherent and engaging). It's never backstory (there isn't any). It's never world development or evolution (while there have been small changes to the overall game world, they are not "rewards" for player actions). So you're looking at systems that reinforce the value of loot. When loot doesn't drop, the player feels like time and effort was wasted, even if the player had fun during that time. An RNG-based loot system actively subtracts from a player's enjoyment of the game when the reward loop is centered around loot because the odds that a player received new or better loot decrease over time as they acquire more and more loot. Additionally, the player has "done everything" in the game well before they have lucked into all of the loot, so the endgame activity becomes "find the missing loot" as opposed to "surpass this challenge." Your endgame is then, quite literally, a crap shoot.

The PvP in Destiny is actually a game where winning could be its own reward, but without a visible ladder or tiered system, you fall back into the "I was The Best... Around... Why didn't I get any loot while that guy with the 0.13 K/D ratio got a SUROS" RNG based loot reward trap. ToO goes further in what I feel is the right direction: The winners get a cool prestige reward in the form of access to the Lighthouse, and they get progressively better rewards at the end of a successful run. But there's still an RNG-based loot element to it at the end of each match. I wish we could get away from that.

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I'm of the opinion that loot systems need to account for outliers and include a raid loot counter that guarantees rewards every X raids in order to correct for the possibility of RNG-screwage.

I can't disagree with this enough.

Random is random.

- M

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I'm of the opinion that loot systems need to account for outliers and include a raid loot counter that guarantees rewards every X raids in order to correct for the possibility of RNG-screwage.

I can't disagree with this enough.

Random is random.

- M

Why do you disagree? I'd really appreciate hearing some counterpoint.

I believe random is not a good reward system because - due to probability and statistics - there will be outliers who are never rewarded by that system. I feel like a good rewards system has (at the very least) checks in place to make sure that those outliers who are RNG screwed still get a reward at least some of the time so as to keep them feeling like the game is rewarding them.

Random is like saying "Hey guys, I designed our reward system! It's got a chance that no one gets anything, ever!" That's lame, and putting a couple of counters in for how many activities have been run since last loot to prevent that seems trivial.

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I'm of the opinion that loot systems need to account for outliers and include a raid loot counter that guarantees rewards every X raids in order to correct for the possibility of RNG-screwage.

I can't disagree with this enough.

Random is random.

- M

Why do you disagree? I'd really appreciate hearing some counterpoint.

I believe random is not a good reward system because - due to probability and statistics - there will be outliers who are never rewarded by that system. I feel like a good rewards system has (at the very least) checks in place to make sure that those outliers who are RNG screwed still get a reward at least some of the time so as to keep them feeling like the game is rewarding them.

Random is like saying "Hey guys, I designed our reward system! It's got a chance that no one gets anything, ever!" That's lame, and putting a couple of counters in for how many activities have been run since last loot to prevent that seems trivial

First, that's a lie about someone not getting anything, ever--many activities guarantee something--but you seem incapable of expressing yourself without hyperbole. The game provides the means for the most unlucky person to procure most of what they need to keep up with everyone else. I can't count the number of times I've had something drop for me shortly after I purchased said item. You treat RNG like it's the end all. RNG is an element of the game, but it's not the whole game.

You want the game not to have the random element, and I want to say that you want a different game, and you should find that game and go play it.

I like the RNG. It's exciting. I treat everything I get from it as a bonus. I might not get what I was hoping for, but you know, life doesn't work that way either.

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I'm of the opinion that loot systems need to account for outliers and include a raid loot counter that guarantees rewards every X raids in order to correct for the possibility of RNG-screwage.

I can't disagree with this enough.

Random is random.

- M

Why do you disagree? I'd really appreciate hearing some counterpoint.

I believe random is not a good reward system because - due to probability and statistics - there will be outliers who are never rewarded by that system. I feel like a good rewards system has (at the very least) checks in place to make sure that those outliers who are RNG screwed still get a reward at least some of the time so as to keep them feeling like the game is rewarding them.

Random is like saying "Hey guys, I designed our reward system! It's got a chance that no one gets anything, ever!" That's lame, and putting a couple of counters in for how many activities have been run since last loot to prevent that seems trivial

First, that's a lie about someone not getting anything, ever--many activities guarantee something--but you seem incapable of expressing yourself without hyperbole. The game provides the means for the most unlucky person to procure most of what they need to keep up with everyone else. I can't count the number of times I've had something drop for me shortly after I purchased said item. You treat RNG like it's the end all. RNG is an element of the game, but it's not the whole game.

You want the game not to have the random element, and I want to say that you want a different game, and you should find that game and go play it.

I like the RNG. It's exciting. I treat everything I get from it as a bonus. I might not get what I was hoping for, but you know, life doesn't work that way either.

True enough that you can earn marks and buy some items, and I really like that those avenues exist. I like that a LOT. It's really good that you can gear up to around 90% of the maximum possible best in slot gear through simple determination. There are, however, items that haven't been sold by Xur in a very long time and may never come back thanks to RNG (Gjallerhorn, for example), will never be sold (raid weapons), and are no longer sold (old vendor items from vanilla and CE), and items that require re-rolls in order to be maximally effective (all current tier vendor items, near as I can tell). To get those items, many of which are best-in-slot for PvP, you have to rely on RNG-based loot drops. I think that's lame. I understand that you disagree, but the argument that you can buy something that isn't as good doesn't make up for the fact that the best gear is still RNG based to one degree or another. Even if there is a comparable weapon on a vendor now, none of those vendor weapons come with ideal perks, so you have to rely on RNG again while you reforge, hoping for the perfect roll.

You are correct that players can earn some gear, but if that gear is noticeably deficient when compared to the RNG-only gear, that's frustrating to me and I don't like it.

To address your other point, I think that in many ways I do want a different game. I want the game that was advertised and hyped, and that I paid for. I want a game that lives up to the Bungie standards of plot, enemy behavior, and game design. I also want a game where hours and hours of "successful" raiding is rewarded, OR where the rewards from endless grinding are not requirements for top tier PvP play. I honestly feel like if the hardmode raids only dropped vanity items, I'd really like the game a lot more. I want a game where I play the same level over and over because it's a fun level and not because I have a 1% chance of it dropping the item that I want. I really feel like Bungie missed the boat on making fun the #1 priority and has actively reduced long-term fun with the RNG loot system.

I understand that you disagree, but I'm not really sure why you're so insistent that I'm somehow wrong to dislike it. I guess it's because you look at it as "bonus" and I look at it as "necessary to compete" which means that each failed RNG roll is, for me, another PvP game where I'm underpowered compared to someone else, or another hard mode raid where my team has to carry me because the loot I need for max level won't drop. I don't mind being beaten by skill, but I dislike being beaten by an inferior player who simply had better luck on his rolls, and I absolutely hate the feeling of holding the team back simply because my level isn't high enough despite making every possible effort to get that number higher.

TL;DR: I'm not done with the game because of the RNG loot system, but I do think it could be improved to prevent players from being perpetually screwed over by the rolls.

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TL;DR: I'm not done with the game because of the RNG loot system, but I do think it could be improved to prevent players from being perpetually screwed over by the rolls.

No one is "perpetually" screwed over. That's just hyperbole on the back of bad RNG theory. You claim that because there are random drop that someone out there has never gotten anything good. I find that basically impossible and of course the math would back me up. The chances that someone is "perpetually" screwed are mathematically non-existant. Yet you use them as the basis of your argument. You may not have gotten the one exact weapon you wish for but you will not find any Destiny player who has been screwed so badly by RNG that he is unable to compete. Especially not since there are activities that guarantee access to max level gear.

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TL;DR: I'm not done with the game because of the RNG loot system, but I do think it could be improved to prevent players from being perpetually screwed over by the rolls.

No one is "perpetually" screwed over. That's just hyperbole on the back of bad RNG theory. You claim that because there are random drop that someone out there has never gotten anything good. I find that basically impossible and of course the math would back me up. The chances that someone is "perpetually" screwed are mathematically non-existant. Yet you use them as the basis of your argument. You may not have gotten the one exact weapon you wish for but you will not find any Destiny player who has been screwed so badly by RNG that he is unable to compete. Especially not since there are activities that guarantee access to max level gear.

I *was* that perpetually screwed over guy during all of VoG and the first half of CE. To this day I have not gotten anything but boots and chest from Vault of Glass. If the expansion never came out, my guy would be stuck at level 29 right this very second.

Up until the last week of February, despite running CE's raid every available week, I could not physically reach level 32 because I only ever got boots and gloves. My entire raid party was 32 by mid-January except for me. Do you think that was okay? It's was *fine* that my every week raid team had to carry me because I was stuck at level 31? Sure they felt sorry for me, but my bad RNG luck held the entire team back for 7 solid weeks of raiding.

I'm telling you that these experiences sucked. So yeah, I'm using my sucky experience with RNG loot as the basis for my argument, but those experiences are real and you're wrong to dismiss them as "mathematically non-existant." You're the one who is wrong on that count.

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And now it is fixed. You have access to top level gear with minimal effort. Technically you did all along through Iron Banner. That's why I did. A mix and match to get to 30 and later 32. Also, I disagree that being one level shy of the maximum equals being screwed over. That's just your hyperbole... again.

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And now it is fixed. You have access to top level gear with minimal effort. Technically you did all along through Iron Banner. That's why I did. A mix and match to get to 30 and later 32. Also, I disagree that being one level shy of the maximum equals being screwed over. That's just your hyperbole... again.

A.. what? Being level 31 against level 33 monsters is a distinct disadvantage. That's not hyperbole at all. Is it possible? Yes. But it's very, very hard. I'm sure there's a raid of super skilled amazing people who could tackle CE hard mode all as level 31, but that ain't me or my friends, and the fact that I was only 31 definitely held back our group.

Also, the Iron Banner didn't sell level 32 items until later in the CE cycle. Remember everyone complaining that Iron Banner only gave level 31 items the first time it rolled around during CE? I do. I've gone to rank 5 in every Iron Banner but the last one; believe me that if it had been a possible solution I'd have taken it.

It does look like PoE's loot system has solved the armor RNG screwage and I'm very glad for that. The armor tokens and weapon tokens are a good addition to the game as far as I'm concerned. But you'll note that they also back up my point about RNG-based loot being an insufficient loot system and that RNG loot systems need safeguard in place to prevent screwage. We're stepping in the right direction with those, but at the same time we're falling into RNG-recursiveness with Treasure Key drops and loot from the Big Chest that those keys open. It's a mixed bag, this PoE loot.

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It's not story (though the expansions have been getting progressively more coherent and engaging). It's never backstory (there isn't any).

All sorts of progressions are keyed to granting Grimoire cards, which is where the backstory is, so I believe this assertion to be false. Each of the new bounty targets and PoE bosses have their own cards, and a lot of the House of Wolves cards give backstory on the Reef Wars that flesh out what Petra and Variks talk about during the story mission voiceovers.

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But I don't count the grimoire cards as "backstory" in the game because they are not actually a part of the game. I know I'm in the minority here, but things like the Halo books I don't count as part of the Halo games (though they are in the Halo universe and are part of the cannon), and the grimoire cards are similar to me. Someone wrote some good stuff there, but none of it is actually in the game, despite being unlocked through gameplay.

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But I don't count the grimoire cards as "backstory" in the game because they are not actually a part of the game. I know I'm in the minority here, but things like the Halo books I don't count as part of the Halo games (though they are in the Halo universe and are part of the cannon), and the grimoire cards are similar to me. Someone wrote some good stuff there, but none of it is actually in the game, despite being unlocked through gameplay.

But stuff in the Grimorie directly affects events in the game. The City still exists because The Queen of the Reef choose to intervene. Skolas, who appears in game, is introduced in the Grimorie. And that's just two recent examples. Rasputin, Clovis Bray, the Ishtar Academy, the loss of the Moon to Crota, etc, etc, ETC... are all filled in through the Grimorie. Bungie did a good job of revealing the past of our various HoW allies as well.

Frankly, you're being both stubborn and pigheaded. The information in the Grimorie is backstory by any reasonable definition, and that's not subject to "opinion" unless you wish to completely redefine words. To claim it isn't backstory only puts you in the minority because in puts you in the wrong.

For reference:

Wikipedia:

A backstory, background story, back-story or background is a set of events invented for a plot, presented as preceding and leading up to that plot. It is a literary device of a narrative history all chronologically earlier than the narrative of primary interest.

It is the history of characters and other elements that underlie the situation existing at the main narrative's start.

Dictionary.com:

a narrative providing a history or background context, especially for a character or situation in a literary work, film, or dramatic series.

Merriam Webster:

a story that tells what led up to the main story or plot

New Oxford American Dictionary:

a history or background created for a fictional character in a motion picture or television program.

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But I don't count the grimoire cards as "backstory" in the game because they are not actually a part of the game. I know I'm in the minority here, but things like the Halo books I don't count as part of the Halo games (though they are in the Halo universe and are part of the cannon), and the grimoire cards are similar to me. Someone wrote some good stuff there, but none of it is actually in the game, despite being unlocked through gameplay.

But stuff in the Grimorie directly affects events in the game. The City still exists because The Queen of the Reef choose to intervene. Skolas, who appears in game, is introduced in the Grimorie. And that's just two recent examples. Rasputin, Clovis Bray, the Ishtar Academy, the loss of the Moon to Crota, etc, etc, ETC... are all filled in through the Grimorie. Bungie did a good job of revealing the past of our various HoW allies as well.

Frankly, you're being both stubborn and pigheaded. The information in the Grimorie is backstory by any reasonable definition, and that's not subject to "opinion" unless you wish to completely redefine words. To claim it isn't backstory only puts you in the minority because in puts you in the wrong.

You are completely right on all counts. I know I'm being stubborn and pigheaded here.

My opinion only comes into play at all on this in terms of how I feel about the implementation of the backstory.

I really don't understand why the grimoire isn't accessible in the game. It's all great story, but because it's not actually a part of the actual game and requires an additional program to read, I refuse to include it in what I think of when I think of "the game." I don't believe the website is part of the game, even though it has an effect on the game and the game has an effect on it. This is definitely me being a stubborn jerk about it. All I can say to that end is that, if I were on the design team here, I'd have railed against this implementation like a zealot (much as I'm doing here). It's not good design; it could easily be changed into good design; why not make it good design?

Text is cheap in terms of memory usage in a game, Destiny is already full of text-only elements (bounties, quests, etc..), we're making the grimoire art and text anyway... why not just have a guy with a deck of cards or a book in-game so players can access their grimoire at any time? Or add it to the pause menu. Have the Ghost display it. Let it be accessible with a D-pad button when you're in orbit. There are so many places it could go and instead it went on the web, totally separate from the actual game.

It breaks immersion and requires additional software, and those are two things I dislike very much about how it's implemented. I get that not everyone (or maybe anyone else) is bothered by this, but I am.

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It breaks immersion and requires additional software, and those are two things I dislike very much about how it's implemented. I get that not everyone (or maybe anyone else) is bothered by this, but I am.

I'm bothered by it, and I doubt very seriously that anyone at Bungie believes the implementation of Grimoire cards is ideal. You ask all kinds of questions about why it was done this way when it would have been easy not to, but the truth is we don't know how easy it was or why they did that way.

I think I have a very plausible theory, though, which is that they had the change the scope of the game (and what story could be presented) pretty radically later than was ideal in the schedule, and Grimoire cards (and the way they were implemented) allowed them to include a lot of story (or backstory) with the game at launch. Content could be added to Bungie.net long after Destiny had gone gold. In other words, it was a compromise--not ideal, but better than the game shipping with no Grimoire content anywhere.

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It breaks immersion and requires additional software, and those are two things I dislike very much about how it's implemented. I get that not everyone (or maybe anyone else) is bothered by this, but I am.

I'm bothered by it, and I doubt very seriously that anyone at Bungie believes the implementation of Grimoire cards is ideal. You ask all kinds of questions about why it was done this way when it would have been easy not to, but the truth is we don't know how easy it was or why they did that way.

I think I have a very plausible theory, though, which is that they had the change the scope of the game (and what story could be presented) pretty radically later than was ideal in the schedule, and Grimoire cards (and the way they were implemented) allowed them to include a lot of story (or backstory) with the game at launch. Content could be added to Bungie.net long after Destiny had gone gold. In other words, it was a compromise--not ideal, but better than the game shipping with no Grimoire content anywhere.

This is what I figure as well. At this point though, two expansions in and with lots of patches along the way, I wonder why it hasn't been integrated. I mean, the ball in the tower got an upgrade.... why not the grimoire?

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It breaks immersion and requires additional software, and those are two things I dislike very much about how it's implemented. I get that not everyone (or maybe anyone else) is bothered by this, but I am.

I'm bothered by it, and I doubt very seriously that anyone at Bungie believes the implementation of Grimoire cards is ideal. You ask all kinds of questions about why it was done this way when it would have been easy not to, but the truth is we don't know how easy it was or why they did that way.

I think I have a very plausible theory, though, which is that they had the change the scope of the game (and what story could be presented) pretty radically later than was ideal in the schedule, and Grimoire cards (and the way they were implemented) allowed them to include a lot of story (or backstory) with the game at launch. Content could be added to Bungie.net long after Destiny had gone gold. In other words, it was a compromise--not ideal, but better than the game shipping with no Grimoire content anywhere.

This is what I figure as well. At this point though, two expansions in and with lots of patches along the way, I wonder why it hasn't been integrated. I mean, the ball in the tower got an upgrade.... why not the grimoire?

You really think those two are equivalent? Did you say you were a software developer? I ask because at this point I don't believe it.

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It breaks immersion and requires additional software, and those are two things I dislike very much about how it's implemented. I get that not everyone (or maybe anyone else) is bothered by this, but I am.

I'm bothered by it, and I doubt very seriously that anyone at Bungie believes the implementation of Grimoire cards is ideal. You ask all kinds of questions about why it was done this way when it would have been easy not to, but the truth is we don't know how easy it was or why they did that way.

I think I have a very plausible theory, though, which is that they had the change the scope of the game (and what story could be presented) pretty radically later than was ideal in the schedule, and Grimoire cards (and the way they were implemented) allowed them to include a lot of story (or backstory) with the game at launch. Content could be added to Bungie.net long after Destiny had gone gold. In other words, it was a compromise--not ideal, but better than the game shipping with no Grimoire content anywhere.

This is what I figure as well. At this point though, two expansions in and with lots of patches along the way, I wonder why it hasn't been integrated. I mean, the ball in the tower got an upgrade.... why not the grimoire?

You really think those two are equivalent? Did you say you were a software developer? I ask because at this point I don't believe it.

They're totally different, but it seems like a strange way to allocate resources. It's possible one of the artists was just mucking around on their own time and showed it to someone who thought it was cool. Stuff like that happens often.

And yes, I worked at Activision on a bunch of AAA titles (as well as several other companies earlier in my career). I was a production test team leader, so while I was not the actual guy doing the actual designing, I had lots and lots and lots of meetings (lots!) about user interface, player control, user experience, PvP balance etc. I ran focus groups, worked with the producers and techs, managed a 300 person test team etc. etc.. I probably know and worked with several of the ATVI-side producers on Destiny, though I've been out of touch with them for 8 years-ish and it would be weird for me to call and ask why X feature isn't in the game or why Y art asset is.

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It breaks immersion and requires additional software, and those are two things I dislike very much about how it's implemented. I get that not everyone (or maybe anyone else) is bothered by this, but I am.

I'm bothered by it, and I doubt very seriously that anyone at Bungie believes the implementation of Grimoire cards is ideal. You ask all kinds of questions about why it was done this way when it would have been easy not to, but the truth is we don't know how easy it was or why they did that way.

I think I have a very plausible theory, though, which is that they had the change the scope of the game (and what story could be presented) pretty radically later than was ideal in the schedule, and Grimoire cards (and the way they were implemented) allowed them to include a lot of story (or backstory) with the game at launch. Content could be added to Bungie.net long after Destiny had gone gold. In other words, it was a compromise--not ideal, but better than the game shipping with no Grimoire content anywhere.

This is what I figure as well. At this point though, two expansions in and with lots of patches along the way, I wonder why it hasn't been integrated. I mean, the ball in the tower got an upgrade.... why not the grimoire?

You really think those two are equivalent? Did you say you were a software developer? I ask because at this point I don't believe it.

They're totally different, but it seems like a strange way to allocate resources. It's possible one of the artists was just mucking around on their own time and showed it to someone who thought it was cool. Stuff like that happens often.

And I bet money that's exactly what happened--the ball in the Tower is low-impact low-hanging fruit.

Designing the in-game interface for the cards and implementing it without breaking the game is a huge endeavor. Perhaps with Comet it'll come, but my bets are on Destiny 2.

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It breaks immersion and requires additional software, and those are two things I dislike very much about how it's implemented. I get that not everyone (or maybe anyone else) is bothered by this, but I am.

I'm bothered by it, and I doubt very seriously that anyone at Bungie believes the implementation of Grimoire cards is ideal. You ask all kinds of questions about why it was done this way when it would have been easy not to, but the truth is we don't know how easy it was or why they did that way.

I think I have a very plausible theory, though, which is that they had the change the scope of the game (and what story could be presented) pretty radically later than was ideal in the schedule, and Grimoire cards (and the way they were implemented) allowed them to include a lot of story (or backstory) with the game at launch. Content could be added to Bungie.net long after Destiny had gone gold. In other words, it was a compromise--not ideal, but better than the game shipping with no Grimoire content anywhere.

This is what I figure as well. At this point though, two expansions in and with lots of patches along the way, I wonder why it hasn't been integrated. I mean, the ball in the tower got an upgrade.... why not the grimoire?

You really think those two are equivalent? Did you say you were a software developer? I ask because at this point I don't believe it.

They're totally different, but it seems like a strange way to allocate resources. It's possible one of the artists was just mucking around on their own time and showed it to someone who thought it was cool. Stuff like that happens often.

And I bet money that's exactly what happened--the ball in the Tower is low-impact low-hanging fruit.

Designing the in-game interface for the cards and implementing it without breaking the game is a huge endeavor. Perhaps with Comet it'll come, but my bets are on Destiny 2.

Man, I sure hope they put that backstory into the actual story of Destiny 2. This game needs an overarching plot badly.

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Man, I sure hope they put that backstory into the actual story of Destiny 2. This game needs an overarching plot badly.

Me, too. Actually, I don't mind backstory in something like the Grimoire cards, but to agree with you, the problem for me always was not enough story story. (Still would have preferred the cards be accessible in the game.)

Ideally, I want cutscenes that move the plot and don't just suggest one.

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Man, I sure hope they put that backstory into the actual story of Destiny 2. This game needs an overarching plot badly.

Me, too. Actually, I don't mind backstory in something like the Grimoire cards, but to agree with you, the problem for me always was not enough story story. (Still would have preferred the cards be accessible in the game.)

Ideally, I want cutscenes that move the plot and don't just suggest one.

Totally agreed. My least favorite moments in Destiny are the Speaker saying he could tell us the stories... but won't; and the Exo saying she doesn't have time to explain why she doesn't have time. Both are major cop outs to what could have been the motivating factors for the entire game from those points forward.

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But stuff in the Grimorie directly affects events in the game. The City still exists because The Queen of the Reef choose to intervene. Skolas, who appears in game, is introduced in the Grimorie. And that's just two recent examples. Rasputin, Clovis Bray, the Ishtar Academy, the loss of the Moon to Crota, etc, etc, ETC... are all filled in through the Grimorie. Bungie did a good job of revealing the past of our various HoW allies as well.

Frankly, you're being both stubborn and pigheaded. The information in the Grimorie is backstory by any reasonable definition, and that's not subject to "opinion" unless you wish to completely redefine words. To claim it isn't backstory only puts you in the minority because in puts you in the wrong.

Yes, the stuff in the Grimoire is backstory. Nobody is debating that, exactly. But that backstory is not presented in "Destiny the game". If someone sits down to play Destiny, they can spend hundreds of hours running around in the game and only ever get a handful of lines of dialogue that communicate any form of vague backstory.

It's a bit like the Halo 4 situation (although I'd argue that Halo 4 was worse). The plot of Halo 4 made absolutely no sense if you hadn't read a bunch of the novels, and even then it still had a lot of holes. Destiny is less confusing on its own, but the fact remains that Destiny the game presents little in the way of backstory or lore.

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But I don't count the grimoire cards as "backstory" in the game because they are not actually a part of the game. I know I'm in the minority here, but things like the Halo books I don't count as part of the Halo games (though they are in the Halo universe and are part of the cannon), and the grimoire cards are similar to me. Someone wrote some good stuff there, but none of it is actually in the game, despite being unlocked through gameplay.

I kind of agree with you in that I tend to fall into the game is canon camp. I enjoyed the Fall of Reach before Halo came out, but I considered the game to be the sacred text whereas the books were a "possible history." The fact that the Grimoire cards are unlocked in the game though changes that dynamic for me. It's not really expanded universe material anymore. It *is* backstory, and more of it is included in HoW than ever. The quotations you see when you accept quests? If I'm not mistaken they come from the Grimoire cards. I've made a point of reading the cards as they unlock this time, and as a result, the Destiny story is much more satisfying than it's ever been.

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The enemies shoot so often that PoE feels more like an FPS bullet hell game than like a strategic wave survival FPS mode.

I've tried to play PoE like it was probably intended. Find cover, kill stuff, mount a defence, move when overwhelmed. Sounds fun.

Except it actually worked like this: Find cover, shoot some stuff, "Oh no I've been flanked, better move to more cover... Except I can't because the air between here and there is virtually made of bullets."

That said... I rather like PoE regardless. It's fun trying to run through that hail of bullets, it's fun leaping around the multi-tiered cover on the Vex, Fallen and Cabal levels and it's fun hiding in a corner and turtling your way to victory when nevessary. I suspect PoE will be my go-to over Dragon Strikes, even with the more limited rewards (I find most Strikes painfully boring at this point).

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The enemies shoot so often that PoE feels more like an FPS bullet hell game than like a strategic wave survival FPS mode.

I've tried to play PoE like it was probably intended. Find cover, kill stuff, mount a defence, move when overwhelmed. Sounds fun.

Except it actually worked like this: Find cover, shoot some stuff, "Oh no I've been flanked, better move to more cover... Except I can't because the air between here and there is virtually made of bullets."

That said... I rather like PoE regardless. It's fun trying to run through that hail of bullets, it's fun leaping around the multi-tiered cover on the Vex, Fallen and Cabal levels and it's fun hiding in a corner and turtling your way to victory when nevessary. I suspect PoE will be my go-to over Dragon Strikes, even with the more limited rewards (I find most Strikes painfully boring at this point).

I didn't say it wasn't fun! I'm saying that it's not an "adapt your tactics" gametype. It's 3D bullet hell.

Personally, I wish Dragon Strikes would mix in PoE alongside... The more variety they can get into a playlist the better imo.

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And I said so in a much smaller rant earlier.

But, I don't presume enough to say that Bingle dropped the ball. I bet this new stuff is super swell for a large number of players. Players who are better at the game than us, players who like a challenge more, or more casual players who never played the raids much anyway, may enjoy this. Or shit, people might just enjoy it. I don't know.

I also don't really feel like there's a problem with the loot system. Do I like RNG loot? Not really. It's fine though. It's also what Bungie wanted. They designed the game to work with it, and it does. Part of the reason the perks are so good on certain guns is because they were so rare, they didn't need to design around them. In a game where there were limited random elements, you wouldn't get guns that wreck everything like Fatebringer, since, if it were guaranteed after, say, 10 runs, they'd have to take its design into account.

I, personally, like the changes you outlined. It would be swell to have a way to work toward an etheric light as a solo player or something.

However, Bungie had a vision here, and while parts of it may not fit in exactly with how we like to play the game, it doesn't mean they "dropped the ball." It means they "designed a new part of the game you don't like." And that's no problem. I thought Halo 3's multiplayer was bad. Did Bungie drop the ball? Of course not.

We kind of need to keep in mind that just because something in the game doesn't fit our preference or idea of what the game should be DOESN'T mean that Bungie fucked up. We just don't like that part. Remember, for every Funkmon who knows high fire rate auto rifles suck, there is a completely deluded RaichuKFM who thinks they're good. For every CruelLEGACEY who thinks PoE is all but worthless, there is a guy like an astronomy student I know who thinks its the best part of the game.

So, if we don't like PoE, we can play other parts. Play trials. Play the new story missions. Play the old raids. None of that interesting? No problem. Play Child of Light, or Saints Row IV, or 3D Ultra Minigolf Adventures.

No game is going to be perfect for everyone, and we should stop pretending like this one is supposed to be. Just like what you like, dislike what you dislike, don't take it so seriously, and don't assume Bungie fucked up because they did something outside of what you expected.

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maybe.

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I think Bungie dropped the ball... (Destiny)