It's Over

Even before Destiny was announced I correctly predicted the manipulative elements and general crassness of the game design. I correctly predicted the weak story (though I was wrong about HOW bad it was). Yet here I am entering year two, and I'm still here playing. Why? I keep telling myself that it's because there's a good game underneath all that. That it's worth toughing out the abusive and manipulative systems in place. That it will change for the better. You know who else says that? Battered Women. (Please note I am in no way suggesting that a fucking video game is as bad as being beaten by your spouse.)

"Yeah, he hits me, but when he doesn't he is loving and amazing, and he's going to change".
"Yeah, the grind and RNG suck, but the raids are amazing, and they are actively trying to improve".

Even though I was aware of the tricks being pulled, even though I predicted them, even though I knew they were bad, I still bought into it! That's how powerful that all is! Miguel, I really have to hand it to you because you put it all in perspective when talking to CruelLegacy. You're right. I got sucked in. Rather than admit it, I rationalized. The raids are good… Trials is good…

Go here and punch in your gamertag. I've got 858 hours. That's FIVE WEEKS. In a game that's 85% empty calories, that means I've spent nearly 4 and a half weeks basically being miserable in this game. Wow. And I'm supposed to do this for NINE MORE YEARS?

It's not going to get better. I was right before, and I'm right about that. I thought about sticking around just for the inevitable storytelling analysis but why bother? If Bungie fixes things… then great. But if they don't, there's no point in saying the same old stuff.

But, now I can admit I succumbed to the very things I decried. At least now I have the fortitude to actually leave.

It's sad, but better sooner than later.

Goodbye posts are so cliche aren't they? See you starside…

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[image]
You've left before. You always come back. It's almost like it's your... fate, or something.

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There's nothing wrong with playing a game for 6 months and moving on. It just that we somehow think a game should entertain us indefinitely. It's fine, when the content is consumed, turn out the lights. I'm sure D2 will be a blast all over again.

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While I have much less vitriol towards Bungie regarding Destiny, I have also been reconsidering the timesuck that it is. I've put in 603 hours, that's 25.125 days. I think I'm gonna start taking those back. I've already been cutting back and considering not buying TTK. I think that might be the right move.

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It was nice playing with you. I'll miss it. Hopefully we meet again in some other game.

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Just calling it. Like Ruth.

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Weekend that Xur sells Hawkmoon.

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I saw the Egyptian themed art styles in a promotional video and thought, "that looks very nice". I still wasn't thinking of playing again. Then the video mentioned lots of sweet loot and I lost all shred of interest. Interest levels - strongly negative.

Hawk Moons only mean something to people who are playing the game.

It has to be said that Bungie's art quality is incredible. Many of the guns look the best of any set of weapons that I have seen in a game. I just wish they belonged to a decent game, one that I wanted to play.

I think that Cody is better off in a world where Hawk Moons don't mean anything to him. The company of the guys he has been playing with is important. Nothing else in the game is worth even a fraction of his consideration (guns, stats, levels, loot, gear and upgrades - all wank).

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Many of these goodbye posts are real goodbyes.

When poena.dare quit, he fucking quit. I barely knew the guy, but I knew he was one of the hardcorest of the hardcore Bungie fans. And one day he just up and left (at least that's how it feels in my memory. It might have been a lot closer to how Cody's doing it, hinting at it over the course of months.) after he didn't like Halo 2. That's all that did it. A huge HUGE member of the Bungie community gone because he just didn't like Halo 2. I think I saw him once later in like 2005, but basically nothing since then. No more Matt Smith in the Bungieverse. :(. People do come back though, so that's nice.

It's very possible there may be no more Cody Miller here, at least for a while. I wouldn't bet on Cody leaving, but once you're out of the system, you can drop it like a hat, just like quitting anything. Odds're 50/50 as I see em.

I'm not saying goodbye though. He's not going to poena.dare vanish, he's Cody Miller. It's not in his blood.

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absence from the game just dulls the sting of the issues you have with the game. The problems feel more like other people's problems.

But you still know the people, especially the ones you played with in-game. It's nice to join in on a joke, reply to an interesting point, and try to imagine what this game is like for the people who still play it. It's a detached interest.

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That's pretty much me. I had to drop out to stop feeling so angry. But you dudes are still lovely people.

Well except schooly. But everyone else is still lovely

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I don't understand how you can make a post like this.

You bought a game
You've played it for nearly a year
You've experienced all its current content

And you feel like the game developers some how owe you something? I must really be missing the point because I've had destiny since launch and seeing as I haven't just sat on it for the last year constant I love it still. (I only play like 3 days a week for a couple hours each time)

If you play something everyday then obviously it will get boring and let's be honest here no one FORCED you to buy the game OR expansions.

You did this all yourself so please stop acting like your some over-privileged kid and it was clearly a gift from you to bungie for purchasing the game.

Bungies success with destiny is undeniable, you don't need to make a thread every couple hours about how you dislike its content you've just spent the last year playing.
Thank fuck for less of your "let's bitch about bungie content because they should listen to me"

kthnxbai.

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I cut back significantly somewhere after I hit level 30 or 31. I pretty much only play once a week. I stick to the stuff that's fun instead of playing the majority of the missions that aren't. I really never do Nightfalls or general missions anymore unless I'm helping people level up or complete things that they haven't done. I also cut back on the Raids.

However, I do weekly game nights with my crew. We pop on and do Crucible. We do Trials. We Raid if we feel like mixing it up. We get on other games half way through the night, or we get on other games to start the night before finishing it off with Destiny. Even if the game is 85% empty calories, you can still do the fun things with your buddies, have a good time with them, and keep the overall play to a minimum.

Maybe Bungie will seriously improve Destiny at some point to make it worthy to you to the point of bringing you back. Good luck either way!

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However, I do weekly game nights with my crew. We pop on and do Crucible. We do Trials. We Raid if we feel like mixing it up. We get on other games half way through the night, or we get on other games to start the night before finishing it off with Destiny. Even if the game is 85% empty calories, you can still do the fun things with your buddies, have a good time with them, and keep the overall play to a minimum.

Yeah this is my main feeling about the game overall. The "empty calories" or whatever you want to call them are mostly when you decide to keep playing when there isn't anything left to do. The fact that the actual moment to moment gameplay is so good (and the people to play with so awesome) is what keeps most of us coming back, not the "addictive" mechanics (I use quotes because I've never had an issue with playing when I don't want to play). But hey, if people like Cody think they are being abused by the game, yeah take a big break, or quit, no reason to keep playing a game if you think it's hurting you.

This post was a lot more meandering than I intended.

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Yeah this is my main feeling about the game overall. The "empty calories" or whatever you want to call them are mostly when you decide to keep playing when there isn't anything left to do. The fact that the actual moment to moment gameplay is so good (and the people to play with so awesome) is what keeps most of us coming back, not the "addictive" mechanics (I use quotes because I've never had an issue with playing when I don't want to play). But hey, if people like Cody think they are being abused by the game, yeah take a big break, or quit, no reason to keep playing a game if you think it's hurting you.

Haha. I'm the same when it comes to "addictive" games and their mechanics. I fully believe they exist, and I've seen their effects on others, but they've never had an impact on me. I seriously enjoy playing Destiny, and I have something like 15 days played total. Standard campaign missions mostly bore me or can't offer me anything at this point, and I've played the Raids to death. Cutting down to weekly game nights was just a way for me to maximize my general free time and my Destiny enjoyment as a whole. Once Taken King comes out, though, I bet I'm back on Destiny nonstop for a good long while if it's as meaty as it seems like it will be. I'm pretty excited.

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I mean that. You're able to bite the bullet and stop, but I'm still here trying to gain access to the content I paid for. It's mostly a principle thing at this point. It doesn't make logical sense, but it's an excuse to play with some of the people here, so what the hell.

Don't take that to mean I'll lose respect for you if you keep playing. People can change their minds on a dime, and that's not a bad thing.

Does this mean I'm off the hook for that Taken King Raid pact? ;)

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Low bet is "Two Days" (I'm going for that one), Max is "End of September".

If there's one thing we all know that Cody's full of, it ain't consistency...

Although I do like that his absence increases my chances at an Xbox Hawkmoon before him.

Also, I'm totally going to call him out on this the minute he comes back...

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It was a good run while it lasted. I'll miss running with you, you're a pretty stand-up guy when you're not trolling the boards. ;) Hope you have fun in whatever you decide to do next!

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One down! (though you're selfish and egotistical enough that I bet like car15 you'll come back, though for different reasons: crowing how you were right to come back, because Bungie did a/b/c)

(really who are we kidding here, you've said many 'goodbyes' over the year before when you thought the game stunk - but you always leave a little weasel room to come back)

Now to work on the friendly Canadian and few others and this forum could be 'right' for once. For CL, he doesn't have to leave, he would just have to change. *You* have to leave because I see no change coming from within you - you just don't have that humility. Even your 'goodbye' post is full of boasting and penis waving, but posts like CL's below shows there's still so much work to be done. I used the word 'insidious' and I mean it. It's such a subtle, agile virus - this infector of tone and entitlement.

A forum of intelligent 'self-aware' posts that can easily flip between the fun had in the game along with the occasional wonder about the potential 9 years of expansion, of how tough it is to make a game this broad in scope and appeal, about how they hit the mark more often than not, about how 90% of the time user frustration is *user created*, about peering past the sociological aspects of game playing and being content that things are working out just fine? Well, that would be the dream, no? For me at least.

Ah, who am I kidding? I'm the lone minority here (with a handful of fellow compatriots but you take my meaning). You guys (and gals) love to navel gaze and armchair quarterback. You folks can do no wrong, you're opinions are all correct and Bungie is a stupid, disorganized, barely-believe-they-can-exist company that has somehow suckered you all into playing for hours. How clever are you all for seeing through their grift and spotting them for the idiots they are? Oh, very clever! But let's stick around, *maybe* Bungie learned their lesson and NOW they'll properly fetch your coffee exactly as you expect it.

I wonder who is the battered wife and the battering husband? (An ugly analogy you introduced, but I'll roll with it)

Carry on, gents, carry on.

- M (pooping in your cereal since '95)

p.s. And for the 'authentic-not-playing-a-character' non-Cody-Miller persona that's buried down there somewhere: Have a good life and seeya starside.

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Ah, who am I kidding? I'm the lone minority here (with a handful of fellow compatriots but you take my meaning). You guys (and gals) love to navel gaze and armchair quarterback.

I think the armchair QBs are just louder. More of us normals exist than you might think, it's just tiring to say "the game is fun. If you played it too much it's probably because it was fun. If it wasn't fun you would have played another game or basketball or built a shed," 3 times a week when someone posts a "Destiny missed out here, here, and here" thread. Narcogen says it in fancy words, you say it bluntly and humorously, but a lot of us just quit bothering arguing with the entitled.

EDIT: OH GOD. WHAT IF I AM A NAVEL GAZER? Kill me now.

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Now to work on the friendly Canadian and few others and this forum could be 'right' for once. For CL, he doesn't have to leave, he would just have to change.

Woah... I didn't realize my being here (among others) was preventing this forum from being "right" in your eyes.

*You* have to leave because I see no change coming from within you - you just don't have that humility. Even your 'goodbye' post is full of boasting and penis waving, but posts like CL's below shows there's still so much work to be done. I used the word 'insidious' and I mean it. It's such a subtle, agile virus - this infector of tone and entitlement.

I think, I know the answer to this, but I'd appreciate it if you could specify which post below you are referring to.

A forum of intelligent 'self-aware' posts that can easily flip between the fun had in the game along with the occasional wonder about the potential 9 years of expansion, of how tough it is to make a game this broad in scope and appeal, about how they hit the mark more often than not, about how 90% of the time user frustration is *user created*, about peering past the sociological aspects of game playing and being content that things are working out just fine? Well, that would be the dream, no? For me at least.

I'm trying to see the positive side of your words here, but I can't. You've made posts along these lines before, and it often comes across as "talk about this game the way I want you to or GTFO". You've expressed that you have no tolerance for armchair game design... That's fine. Is it so bad that others do? Why is any comment or question on design indicative of this insidious virus you speak of? You rally against anything you perceive as narcissistic or self-important, yet you are completely intolerant of people who discuss aspects of a game you're not interested in. And you get quite hostile in the process.

Ah, who am I kidding? I'm the lone minority here (with a handful of fellow compatriots but you take my meaning). You guys (and gals) love to navel gaze and armchair quarterback. You folks can do no wrong, you're opinions are all correct and Bungie is a stupid, disorganized, barely-believe-they-can-exist company that has somehow suckered you all into playing for hours. How clever are you all for seeing through their grift and spotting them for the idiots they are? Oh, very clever! But let's stick around, *maybe* Bungie learned their lesson and NOW they'll properly fetch your coffee exactly as you expect it.

I'm not sure if you are really addressing Cody directly, or all of "us" (those you see as a problem on these forums). But you say "you guys and gals", so I'm going to assume you are still addressing me. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

If you are addressing me along with others, how can you possibly say these things about me? I have my opinions, as we all do. I have my likes and dislikes. The vast majority of my posts are positive thoughts on the game. When I do have a criticism or concern, I am careful to voice my opinion within the frame of constructive criticisms. Bungie themselves have told us over and over that they like to hear constructive feedback. Many of the changes the community has suggested have gone straight into the game. So I point stuff out whenever I think of it, but not once have I ever said anything that deserves this:

You folks can do no wrong, you're opinions are all correct and Bungie is a stupid, disorganized, barely-believe-they-can-exist company that has somehow suckered you all into playing for hours

I'm going to be blunt. You make me want to stop posting here. I'm still a relatively new face around here at DBO, but I've lurked HBO for years. I have all the respect in the world for you. In my mind, you're one of the founding fathers who made HBO what it was, and DBO what it is. So when you describe me the way that you did above, I take it to heart. You have, in the past, inferred that you say the things that others won't because they're too nice (you've mentioned Claude and Levi specifically)... more people I respect and look up to. So I believe you. But I also feel you are 100% wrong in your assessment of me.

Either way, maybe I should just fuck off.

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Remember, we're all friends here. We all love Bingle.

I don't think Miguel thinks you think Bungie are idiots and you know better. I also don't think you think he thinks you think that.

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Remember, we're all friends here. We all love Bingle.

I don't think Miguel thinks you think Bungie are idiots and you know better. I also don't think you think he thinks you think that.

Well I didn't think that, but then he went and said it (at least that's how it reads to me). I hope I've got it wrong.

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Remember, we're all friends here. We all love Bingle.

I don't think Miguel thinks you think Bungie are idiots and you know better. I also don't think you think he thinks you think that.

That was pretty rough to read. Mig and Cody have had a beef for years, so some of the his response is understandable. Mig is a juggernaut around here, and his words have great impact.

Shit, I've stopped posting negatively here because he suggested it was a stupid thing to do. Once I stopped posting, I stopped playing.

...

Maybe that's the point?

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I don't see him as a sea of negativity. Far from it.

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I love playing Destiny. I'd assumed my countless posts about how much I love the raids, Trials of Osiris, Iron Banner, or just about anything as long as I'm playing with the great friends I've made here at DBO, would make my love of Destiny obvious. I guess I was wrong :(

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FWIW, I'd prefer it if you stuck around.

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...and not just because he has godly destiny skills. (But he does!)

CruelLegacey always has a good attitude when playing and I can't think of a time when he's been upset. Frustrated occasionally, sure, like on crota hard when we'd go for the 6th time because some scripted part of the encounter threw us off and screwed up the timing. We all were. But the last thing I'd put on him is negativity and being a problem with the forums, a problem for the community.

I'm "new" to the DBO forums. I was around as a lurker for a long while in the HBO days, though I didn't post much. I've been a hardcore bungie fan since Marathon 1. I don't see a problem with his posts, and as far as I can tell, he only adds to the community here.

Mig, I'm not sure where the venom is coming from here, but I think it's misplaced on this one.

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You play often with Cody, you are not totally opposed to him, you post on his threads...

perhaps an association forms that is just wrong but is an inevitable part of how our minds work. It is our subconscious at work.

I confuse Gravemind with General Vagueness because their tags share a starting letter (how sad is that?). And don't ask me which one is Shadow of the Void. (one of them is, isn't he?)

I thought Iconicbannana was British and then I see that he lives in Portland.

Old age can do things to our memories and sometimes we just get it wrong all together. I thought ABBA was singing, "Gimmie Gimmie Gimmie I'm mad after midnight"; that's how I used to sing it. Turns out it was a man she was after.

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You play often with Cody, you are not totally opposed to him, you post on his threads... perhaps an association forms that is just wrong but is an inevitable part of how our minds work. It is our subconscious at work.

When I first posted here on DBO, it was to ask for some help getting through the Vault of Glass. Cody was one of the first people to respond. He was totally enthusiastic to help show me the way through even though I couldn't use my mic (and would potentially drag down the team). Cody, along with Cyber, Speedracer, Korny, and Kalamari were helpful, friendly, and a blast to play with. And it has been that way ever since.

I don't agree with a lot of what he posts, and I don't always agree with how he expresses his opinions (and I'm sure he feels the same way about my posts). But we've always been able to talk about stuff calmly and respectfully. He calls me on my bullshit, and I do the same with him, all in a friendly manner. When we are playing together (all of our regular PS4 group, not just me and Cody), we're often teasing each other about our differences in opinion, and laughing together the whole time.

So yeah, I reply to some of his threads, and he replies to some of mine. Perhaps you are right... maybe in some people's minds, that is enough to lump us together.

Old age can do things to our memories and sometimes we just get it wrong all together. I thought ABBA was singing, "Gimmie Gimmie Gimmie I'm mad after midnight"; that's how I used to sing it. Turns out it was a man she was after.

Ok, I thought it was Gimmie Gimmie Gimmie as well... what are they actually saying? lol

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Ok, I thought it was Gimmie Gimmie Gimmie as well... what are they actually saying? lol

It's "gimme gimme gimme a man after midnight" I believe.

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but in my defence, The Visitors is about mental illness so I just thought that ABBA sang about mental health issues.

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Heh, when I was younger I thought Mr Loggins was saying: "Highway to the hang-it-down!"

Don't even know what that's supposed to mean!

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I don't pretend to know what Mig is talking about, but something that irks me is entitlement among Destiny players. When you criticise the game you give off a sense of entitlement (things like trying to get access to what you already paid for or whatever you said). I see it in a lot of PS4 guys' posts.

I believe completely that you are a fan who is criticising the game in reasonable ways and that you love Destiny. But it's the attitude. When you say things like that I have to try to keep from eyerolling over your comments, because I don't think you think you're getting fucked by the game. It just comes across like that sometimes. To me.

However, your website, your tip videos, your videos in general (I subscribe to your YouTube channel of course) they show me that you do love the game and you probably don't feel entitled. We just don't communicate in the same way, and it can be hard to understand, especially on a gaming forum when there are no shades of grey between jet and eggshell.

I'm sure I'm way more annoying to a lot of people.

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I appreciate your post. I just need to ask:

When you criticise the game you give off a sense of entitlement (things like trying to get access to what you already paid for or whatever you said).

I don't believe I've ever said anything like that. I have certainly seen the point made here on the forums, but I don't think it ever came from me.

Do you find my criticisms in general come off as sounding "entitled"? Or was it that one example in particular you were thinking of?

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I appreciate your post. I just need to ask:

When you criticise the game you give off a sense of entitlement (things like trying to get access to what you already paid for or whatever you said).

I don't believe I've ever said anything like that. I have certainly seen the point made here on the forums, but I don't think it ever came from me.

I don't know what he's talking about either. I did make a Cody post in jest once when everyone around me was getting a 4th Horseman in one or two days, but it wasn't a post to seriously whine about it (although RNGesus heard my cries and gifted me one later that same day)...
I dunno. I think for it to be Funkmon complaining, is the biggest head scratcher of them all. He's the "other" negative nancy in the forum, but not so much that I'd call him out on it...

Do you find my criticisms in general come off as sounding "entitled"? Or was it that one example in particular you were thinking of?

Your rants against PoE can be interpreted that way, although you did go through the effort of suggesting fixes, rather than just whining about it.

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Do you find my criticisms in general come off as sounding "entitled"? Or was it that one example in particular you were thinking of?

Your rants against PoE can be interpreted that way, although you did go through the effort of suggesting fixes, rather than just whining about it.

I guess that's something I need to work on. I don't think of myself as feeling "entitled" towards Destiny or any other game, but I do see myself as a long-time fan and customer of Bungie's. I go out of my way to tell them about all the things I love about their games, and I also tell them when I'm not happy with what I've purchased. I guess I need to be more careful about how I phrase things, but that is where it is coming from.

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I guess that's something I need to work on. I don't think of myself as feeling "entitled" towards Destiny or any other game, but I do see myself as a long-time fan and customer of Bungie's. I go out of my way to tell them about all the things I love about their games, and I also tell them when I'm not happy with what I've purchased. I guess I need to be more careful about how I phrase things, but that is where it is coming from.

This is INSANITY!

Is this really the lesson we're going to take away from this whole debacle? That criticism of any kind, no matter how polite, well phrased , or backed up with reasoning is too far?

THE HELL IS WRONG WITH THIS FORUM?

We're customers! We're consumers! Not only are we entitled to criticize, that is our responsibilty!

I'll be back in an hour. I need to cool off for a bit.

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You are misconstruing what's being said (which is not entirely on you, wording things perfectly, and interpreting people's intentions in written form is difficult, if not downright impossible). Funkmon is referring to the trend on the Internet in general (which does manifest on this forum as well) to not just complain or criticize, but to act like the company somehow wronged you by providing a product you do not like. In pre-Internet-rage days if you did not like a product you may complain about it you friends, but would usually respond in a number of ways such as: return the product/ask for your money back, refuse to buy a future product, or contact the company to have them help you resolve concerns you may have. Then move on with their lives, not really thinking about this anymore.

While obviously this is not all possible with a product such as Destiny, the Internet has mostly abandoned that kind of reaction completely, and instead talks about how the company that provided such a product is terrible, stupid, and selfish (this is putting it incredibly mildly compared to how the Internet usually words it). Then continue to harp on this point instead of moving on. While CruelLegacy does not fit that description (and Funkmon admits his memory is not perfect below), I believe that was the kind of post Funkmon was referring to, which IS a problem, no matter the product unless it physically harmed you.

The reason you may think Funkmon is saying this about any criticism is because of this line: "When you criticise the game you give off a sense of entitlement (things like trying to get access to what you already paid for or whatever you said)." Which was not intended as a general "you" meaning anyone criticizing the game at all, in this instance it was a specific "you" (addressing Cruel Legacy), which if you continue down the concern appears to be resolved.

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Yeah, it was a while ago, around the time of HOW launch. Might have just showed up that way in my head. Can't think of the post right now. I'm prepared to accept I'm misremembering. But in general, I appreciate the things you say you don't like and you aren't an asshole about them.

It might just be me. For example, a while ago I bitched about deeJ calling Cologne Köln and two people said the exact same thing to me in subsequent replies and one I said something like "Oh, right! I never thought of it that way." The other guy I said something to the equivalent of "Yeah, but still." So who knows what goes on in my head.

Like 2 words totally change how something is interpreted, and we always turn up the gain to 10 on gaming forums anyway. If I were you, I wouldn't stress out about what Mig said. Keep in mind he is fairly easy to email if you want a real clarification.

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...When you criticise the game you give off a sense of entitlement (things like trying to get access to what you already paid for or whatever you said). I see it in a lot of PS4 guys' posts...

...Can't think of the post right now. I'm prepared to accept I'm misremembering...

You're misremembering who said the phrase you're referring to, but not what was said (in this very thread in fact).

(Post edited to make it more concise and clear)

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Cruel and Cody start with the same letter. I'm seeing a pattern here.

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I didn't even read that post yet. I only read half of this stupid thread anyway. That one's obnoxious. I skipped it on principle. :P

EDIT: if that is something Cyber's said before, and I KNOW it's something Cody has said before, I may totally be mixing Cruel and one of those guys. But the thing I'm remembering was like a month ago or more in one of those big rant threads.

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Do you find my criticisms in general come off as sounding "entitled"? Or was it that one example in particular you were thinking of?

Your rants against PoE can be interpreted that way, although you did go through the effort of suggesting fixes, rather than just whining about it.

I guess that's something I need to work on. I don't think of myself as feeling "entitled" towards Destiny or any other game, but I do see myself as a long-time fan and customer of Bungie's. I go out of my way to tell them about all the things I love about their games, and I also tell them when I'm not happy with what I've purchased. I guess I need to be more careful about how I phrase things, but that is where it is coming from.

Having just gone back to read roughly half of your posts, I think you're doing just fine. Sure, you've posted some criticism in the past, but you took the time to explain your ideas and almost without fail you responded fairly to anyone who disagreed with you. You've done a rant here or there (PoE for instance) but you've also posted well thought out solutions (PoE 2.0) a decent variety of "community building" topics (What will you ascend first) helpful topics (Skolas guide, other Raid stuff) and fun topics (Drunk Swordbearer).

I'd say you're the type of poster DBO prides itself on, and if your one or two rants are enough that you need to change or leave then so do most of the rest of us because very few of us are actually welcome here...

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Do you find my criticisms in general come off as sounding "entitled"? Or was it that one example in particular you were thinking of?

Your rants against PoE can be interpreted that way, although you did go through the effort of suggesting fixes, rather than just whining about it.

I guess that's something I need to work on. I don't think of myself as feeling "entitled" towards Destiny or any other game, but I do see myself as a long-time fan and customer of Bungie's. I go out of my way to tell them about all the things I love about their games, and I also tell them when I'm not happy with what I've purchased. I guess I need to be more careful about how I phrase things, but that is where it is coming from.

I didn't mean that your anti-PoE stuff is entitled, just that he probably interpreted it that way. There's a huge difference between saying "this is stupid!" And saying "this is why I don't like this". You've done very well to express the whys and hows of your feelings towards the things you dislike, so it's not something you need to work on.

Also, I don't mean that I consider what you've said to be whining. I meant to say that unlike other folks who whine about things without being constructive, you put forth the effort to explain yourself, but I didn't word it correctly.

It's kind of moot, since he admitted that he's misremembering (again, he more than anything was referring to Cody's Hawkmoon rants), so he probably didn't have any real issue with your posts, and others here (myself included) don't think you've made a mistake in your criticisms and how you've phrased them (even if I disagree with them).

And again, Mig may have triggered a few folks around here, but I totally see where he's coming from, and don't really disagree with his post, BUT I think that the way he worded it may be unintentionally putting you in the crosshairs instead of the real trolls and negative folks who do nothing but whine in a non-constructive manner...

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I don't agree with a lot of what he posts, and I don't always agree with how he expresses his opinions (and I'm sure he feels the same way about my posts). But we've always been able to talk about stuff calmly and respectfully. He calls me on my bullshit, and I do the same with him, all in a friendly manner. When we are playing together (all of our regular PS4 group, not just me and Cody), we're often teasing each other about our differences in opinion, and laughing together the whole time.

Cody may rub some (a lot?) of folks the wrong way, but I've never had any issues with him. It's been a long time, but I remember hearing him in a few podcasts, and it really help put the way he writes posts into perspective. And I always feel like he brings up legitimate issues, things that could be improved upon. I actually pretty much always enjoy his threads, even if I don't agree with them. They give me something to think about, make me look at things from another perspective.

For what it's worth Cody, even if you quit playing, I hope you don't quit posting. I always enjoy reading what you have to say!

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You play often with Cody, you are not totally opposed to him, you post on his threads...

perhaps an association forms that is just wrong but is an inevitable part of how our minds work. It is our subconscious at work.

I confuse Gravemind with General Vagueness because their tags share a starting letter (how sad is that?). And don't ask me which one is Shadow of the Void. (one of them is, isn't he?)

hahah, I don't think you're the first, and we do both help run a custom game night, so there's an association like you were talking about (and yes, his GT is ShadowoftheVoid, mine is Gnrl Vagueness)

I thought Iconicbannana was British and then I see that he lives in Portland.

Old age can do things to our memories and sometimes we just get it wrong all together. I thought ABBA was singing, "Gimmie Gimmie Gimmie I'm mad after midnight"; that's how I used to sing it. Turns out it was a man she was after.

mondegreens are fun

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You're a great guy and I thoroughly enjoy your company. Listen to your fans, not your critics.

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You're a great guy and I thoroughly enjoy your company. Listen to your fans, not your critics.

I don't think that's the way to go. Any critic with credibility should be listened to. That's how you find your flaws and improve, whether it's posting or something else.

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Its generalized of course. OBVIOUSLY you want to listen to your critics. This instance seemed more direct attack than critique

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Its generalized of course. OBVIOUSLY you want to listen to your critics.

You'd be surprised how non-obvious that is to many people. (I know it took me a long time to learn.)

This instance seemed more direct attack than critique

It seems that way, the question is whether it is. That might seem like nitpicking but Mig said during his last flare-up (for lack of a better word) that he's purposefully being even more blunt than usual and taking on a certain tone to get his point across and sort of fight fire with fire. It definitely feels a lot like an attack to me, but I think, I hope, that's not what it's supposed to be. If it is, it's for a stated reason, which is a whole other issue.

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... he pissed off the easy-going Canadian ;p

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Either way, maybe I should just fuck off.

Please don't. I've enjoyed your posts and the way you've dealt with criticism.

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Perhaps "Don't Change" is too strong. We all have things we should change and work on to become better human beings. What I mean by that is don't worry about finding fault in the game. I will say that your best posts (IMHO) tend to be your positive ones where you've actually created something, rather than speculated about it. I'm thinking of Destiny Raiders, your streams, your videos- those are great!

I really appreciate your posts. You clearly have a passion for the game and that comes with positive and negative reactions to stimuli. I often disagree with your conclusion (love me some PoE) but I value the other perspective you bring.

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Perhaps "Don't Change" is too strong. We all have things we should change and work on to become better human beings. What I mean by that is don't worry about finding fault in the game. I will say that your best posts (IMHO) tend to be your positive ones where you've actually created something, rather than speculated about it. I'm thinking of Destiny Raiders, your streams, your videos- those are great!

I really appreciate your posts. You clearly have a passion for the game and that comes with positive and negative reactions to stimuli. I often disagree with your conclusion (love me some PoE) but I value the other perspective you bring.

While I don't think that Mig meant to insult Cruel, I agree that besides his horrible-and-objectively-wrong opinion of PoE, he's never really had anything to say that I didn't find some insight or joy with...

I sure would never lump him into the same league as Cody or Car when it comes to wanton negativity, that's for sure...

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You are a great contributor to our community and always welcome. The few "negative" posts I've seen from you were shortly after HoW and mostly about your disappointment with PoE. And they really weren't negative (hence the quotes) as much as your take on them. You were actually constructive in generating possible changes to the gametype, and always tried to find the bright side.

You are one of my favorite posters in the forum because you are always friendly/courteous to others, you bring excellent content in your videos and tutorials, but you keep it real in a good way. Honestly I kinda think PoE sucks a little, but I've never really posted about it. You did, and I think that's important. Like you said, Bungie listens to the community and I know they lurk here. We should be able to have some constructive criticism and discussion.

I can't speak for Mig, but I understand the frustration in seeing much the of the negativity we have had since release. It was really bad the first half of the year, and I almost quit the forum. So it's easy for me to see how Mig could get fed up with it.

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I'll let Mig clarify for himself, but based on what I know, he holds Cody out as a special case. He doesn't think of you as acting like a pompous ass, and he has said as much here. He does, I think, believe that a lot of people are addicted to the game, and you are one of them. I may be, too.

What I'm not is someone who feels that content intended to last for months should be consumed in a matter of weeks. I'm trying not to be a completionist. I don't think that's what Bungie intended, and I think they have been surprised with the intensity with which people play this game. I loved how Mark Noseworthy repeated described NOT PLAYING THE GAME ALL THE TIME in his interviews about the Taken King.

My theory is that Mig feels that the addicts' perceptions are distorted because they are addicts. They gorge on steak and forget how good steak is in moderation. (Sorry, Mig, for that analogy.) There's also a Louis C.K. strain in there--i.e., everything is awesome and no one is happy. Maybe gamers 40 and up just don't have the same expectations as younger gamers, but I don't hear the same kind of feedback from them. You're an excellent video game critic (I knew that before Destiny came out) and I've found your criticisms of Destiny to be fair and constructive even if I disagreed with them, but I also think some of your frustrations with the game are, as Mig described, user-created.

Don't fuck off. I don't even want Cody to fuck off. I would like the forum to not so goal oriented ("I'm here for the Fireteam builder," "Here's how to do this thing to get that thing," "Dammit, Bungie, I hate that I haven't got X--why you make me want stuff I can't have?" [troll face]). I'd like to be more focused on the non-loot that the game has given us (but Bungie has responsibility, too--we do need more story hooks). I like the forum that Mig describes, and I do think he sees himself as a force for good and a lot of what he's doing in these occasional posts as tough love.

TL;DR You're not the problem, but I think Mig sees you as someone who exhibits problematic symptoms but is reachable and can see that maybe they've gotten too close? That sounds condescending, and I don't mean it that way. For myself, coming back to Destiny after even one day off makes it better. When I'm able to stop worry about what I haven't done or gotten, I fall in love again with little things. Your post about no Wow moments made me think about all the moments that were still amazing to me, but perhaps without the oomph they would've had playing as a super-man saving the mother f*cking galaxy. Sometimes its flaws come to the fore, but man, Destiny is an amazing game.

Really TL;DR. You're good, man. I value what you offer. Stay gold.

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My theory is that Mig feels that the addicts' perceptions are distorted because they are addicts. They gorge on steak and forget how good steak is in moderation. (Sorry, Mig, for that analogy.) There's also a Louis C.K. strain in there--i.e., everything is awesome and no one is happy.

Destiny's fans, and Bungie themselves, often brag and crow about the game's addictive qualities, and have even used this trait as a defense against criticism.

"Despite criticism, users are logging a ton of hours in Destiny," say the game devs

"Destiny has so many problems, but we can't stop playing it," say the gaming journos

"You complain a lot, but you're still here!" say the forum members

The sword cuts both ways. Destiny is a game centered entirely around player investment. The people who play it therefore invest a lot of time and effort. No one should act surprised, or complain that these malcontents just aren't being fair and equitable when this heavily-invested player base becomes upset and turns to vocal criticism when it's not too easy (again, by design) to stop playing, or to stop caring.

Maybe gamers 40 and up just don't have the same expectations as younger gamers, but I don't hear the same kind of feedback from them.

I'm almost positive this is more because older gamers in most cases, (1) have more important things going on in their lives, and (2) benefit from a more healthy perspective on things.

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For myself, coming back to Destiny after even one day off makes it better.

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Is there something in the water?

Cruel. I have a guard in Mayflower #3 named Nevin. You're a great poster in my book and well-balanced. You contribute content and generate respectful attitudes.

Cody also contributes a lot. He records cutscenes for BO and more. He creates great, insightful threads. He also creates crazy threads and sometimes comes off insulting or condescending and has irked me in the past. Sometimes I'm not in the mood for his posts and I'll just skip past. But his forum presence is not ONLY that. That's likely why he generates such drama and discussion - because he isn't a troll. He just sometimes sounds like one online.

Mig is also a nice guy. I have fond memories of my girlfriend making fun of his pink phone. And I think I understand some of Mig's root frustrations and sentiments in his post. But I don't know how a post worded like that would have a constructive impact...

I can get why a person would feel that way that towards Cody, perhaps. Sometimes he posts a lot of negative threads with scandalous titles in quick succession and it can feel overwhelming when you just want to come here and share some fun you had in the game. And there ARE some naysayers here that contribute nothing but now-cliche, empty negative responses that have no intention in generating discussion. They have done so to the point where when something cool happens or I accomplish something in Destiny I don't usually mention it here anymore. I go to Twitter instead. And that sucks.

But Cruel is definitely not one of those people. I can only assume Mig mistook Cruel for someone else or accidentally lumped him into an incorrect group in his mind. Out of all the people to single out, mentioning CL felt completely out of left field (correct sports term usage?).

...Damnit people, be nice!

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Mig is also a nice guy. I have fond memories of my girlfriend making fun of his pink phone.

He told me it was light red.

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Mig is also a nice guy. I have fond memories of my girlfriend making fun of his pink phone.

He told me it was light red.

They already have a color for that.

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Sorry for posting and then leaving this morning… I had a full work day and am only now getting back - composing this will take time as well. So again, sorry for the long delay.

Now to work on the friendly Canadian and few others and this forum could be 'right' for once. For CL, he doesn't have to leave, he would just have to change.

Woah... I didn't realize my being here (among others) was preventing this forum from being "right" in your eyes.

I thought I made it quite clear many posts ago that the forum has a problem that has turned me and several others off. It's an observation, (I didn't take a poll) and I feel it's a very subtle problem, which means it's very hard to correct. To even admit that there is one! I could be full of shit, fighting at windmills!

But I also want to say I was only using my rant on Cody as an excuse to just tease the others around here. You specifically, of course, I'm not denying that. But I'm just trying to clear up that I'm not saying you folks are terrible people - there's just a 'problem' that I have seen and I have observed from others a likewise feeling. This is not scientific, or organized or what have you. It is that holiest of holies here that everyone seems to pride themselves on: an opinion.

In that thread from weeks ago, I was actually composing a long reply to you and then my browser shit the bed. In frustration, I txted Claude that I gave up - the tech gods were telling me to go fuck off! But I was sincerely trying to keep the conversation going. I will try that now. (this time typing my reply in a texteditor, saving it regularly, so a machine/app crash doesn't destroy all my hard work)

*You* have to leave because I see no change coming from within you - you just don't have that humility. Even your 'goodbye' post is full of boasting and penis waving, but posts like CL's below shows there's still so much work to be done. I used the word 'insidious' and I mean it. It's such a subtle, agile virus - this infector of tone and entitlement.

I think, I know the answer to this, but I'd appreciate it if you could specify which post below you are referring to.

Actually no, this would be a *better* exercise if you and I took this opportunity to see if you spot what I spot.

You have all the power to tell *me* to fuck off. I completely respect your position and your time! If you think I'm trying to play games with you, that I'm wasting your time - I can't do anything to correct that perception. All I can say is that I honestly think it would be interesting if we can make headway by looking at what *you* think *I* think is the problem. You've already demonstrated several times (and again - this is a testament on why I BELIEVE YOU'RE THE PERFECT PERSON TO TALK TO ABOUT THIS) a willingness to look back, give previous statements another pass, and decide "Well, maybe I should work on that."

The thing is - there's no way I can 'force' folks here on the forum to change - I'm just using my powers of snark and (now) discourse to maybe get some of you to look back on yourselves and maybe - just maybe - see what I'm seeing - and maybe creating the impetus for change. Could it work? I haven't a clue. I could embarrass myself in all this and just come up looking like the mad, curmudgeonly old wank that I probably am anyway. But I do love what folks have done within the walls of B.O. over the many decades and will take my lumps by destroying whatever goodwill I have with this one last mission.

A forum of intelligent 'self-aware' posts that can easily flip between the fun had in the game along with the occasional wonder about the potential 9 years of expansion, of how tough it is to make a game this broad in scope and appeal, about how they hit the mark more often than not, about how 90% of the time user frustration is *user created*, about peering past the sociological aspects of game playing and being content that things are working out just fine? Well, that would be the dream, no? For me at least.

I'm trying to see the positive side of your words here, but I can't.

You don't see the positive in what I describe above? Really? Then maybe we have a bigger problem then even I thought. I'll press on though, as I really think you meant that in a different way, I'm just not sure.

You've made posts along these lines before, and it often comes across as "talk about this game the way I want you to or GTFO". You've expressed that you have no tolerance for armchair game design... That's fine. Is it so bad that others do?

Well, OF COURSE!? Or else why would I have expressed that I have no tolerance for armchair game design - and then be tolerant of it? But allow me to clarify what I'm seeing. I'll explain more in a bit.

Why is any comment or question on design indicative of this insidious virus you speak of? You rally against anything you perceive as narcissistic or self-important, yet you are completely intolerant of people who discuss aspects of a game you're not interested in. And you get quite hostile in the process.

Actually I would appreciate if you showed me where I inject myself into 'anything' I perceive, etc. on this forum. That would imply that I'm a steady persistent voice that shits on threads here. I don't think I do that. I have posted… wait for it! 130 times SINCE THE DBO FORUM OPENED, (because the whiff of what was happening here was strong even at the start, though for a diametrically opposite reason - that actually when I think about it, lends itself to why things then flipped 180 to the current state - but I digress) in no way am I a 'top poster' here - that I post in volume. Maybe you're imagining that I post here more than I do, or my occasional posts are so strong to you that they are 'spreading' over other threads that I actually ignored and did not participate in at all.

The hostility is a result of reaching my breaking point. I had abandoned (like some others have in my view) this forum but I'm upset I did that. Couple that with the continued 'virus effect' here and how certain folks have tried an even-handed approach to adjusting things to no avail, and it all turns into a ball of fire that I have a need to react to. Lashing out gets you folks to stop and take a look. *Some* of you see beyond it and see what I'm getting at - others just see the hostility and don't want to look further. That's fine - I can only be judged by what I write in my posts - to wit: wouldn't *this* post that I'm writing with such care show that there's more to it then just my being upset?

Ah, who am I kidding? I'm the lone minority here (with a handful of fellow compatriots but you take my meaning). You guys (and gals) love to navel gaze and armchair quarterback. You folks can do no wrong, you're opinions are all correct and Bungie is a stupid, disorganized, barely-believe-they-can-exist company that has somehow suckered you all into playing for hours. How clever are you all for seeing through their grift and spotting them for the idiots they are? Oh, very clever! But let's stick around, *maybe* Bungie learned their lesson and NOW they'll properly fetch your coffee exactly as you expect it.

I'm not sure if you are really addressing Cody directly, or all of "us" (those you see as a problem on these forums). But you say "you guys and gals", so I'm going to assume you are still addressing me. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I am addressing all those who have been carrying around this attitude that ***even with measured tones*** have created an overall effect on the forum. YES! But as an aside, Cody was the Taken King of this bunch - so 90% of that diatribe is laid right on his feet. And he's the king maybe not by fiat, but just by the power of his position on things. I mean, look, I'm not blind that he was challenged here by others, but unfortunately there would be others that whole-heartedly agreed with him or even saw his position as valid to begin a conversation with him. It's why my posts in the past year to him rarely actually engaged with anything he posited - By acknowledging such backwards thinking was, even if in disagreement, giving him validation. I refused to do that. I won't talk to a flat-earther - there's no point.

If you are addressing me along with others, how can you possibly say these things about me? I have my opinions, as we all do. I have my likes and dislikes. The vast majority of my posts are positive thoughts on the game. When I do have a criticism or concern, I am careful to voice my opinion within the frame of constructive criticisms. Bungie themselves have told us over and over that they like to hear constructive feedback. Many of the changes the community has suggested have gone straight into the game. So I point stuff out whenever I think of it, but not once have I ever said anything that deserves this:

You folks can do no wrong, you're opinions are all correct and Bungie is a stupid, disorganized, barely-believe-they-can-exist company that has somehow suckered you all into playing for hours

I apologize, but I'm talking about a spectrum. So I'm pointing with the above rant to the most vitriolic anti-Destiny fervor I see from time to time. That's not fair to you all and not really what I intend. Turn down my vitriol to a simmering 2 or 3, and maybe that's more appropriate to the level some of you bring here. What's probably also unfair is that I'm even lumping in what I see on Twitter, Facebook, Reddit, and even B.net forums - because it *all* feels like part of a spectrum. But I do that *because* there is cross-pollination of arguments, theories, etc. It's undeniable that excuses like "I can play for hours and still not like elements of the game" or "I'm a fan but I think Bungie screwed us on DLC pricing" has been as often seen HERE on DBO forums as well as the other venues I mentioned before. I really hope none of you are denying that. Part of my disappointment is that back in the Halo days, b.net WAS very different from HBO forum - One was a cesspool of frustration and entitlement and the other was about community and fun and intelligent conversation. I'm *not* saying they are identical but the line seperating the two is less thick and girthy. Know what I mean? (and heading off you naysayers - I'm not saying this forum is a cesspool)

But back to your point: That's the problem with my trying to address everyone - I don't really mean to lump you all in together, because you all have a particular individual approach. It's again why this is all so tough to discuss because it's not a simple matter of 'you are all guilty of doing X - now stop it or else one of us has to leave' And I have, I thought, honorably addressed you Cruel in particular in that post from weeks ago. You're *exactly* why the forum can be saved. Because you're indeed a great guy, a lover of the game, and yet even with all that, it is *firmly* embedded within you (as well as others) to discuss things with a particular slant that reveals a larger picture that I do not agree with.

Cody was a lost cause. The rest of you (that have shades of what I'm driving at) are not.

I'm going to be blunt. You make me want to stop posting here. I'm still a relatively new face around here at DBO, but I've lurked HBO for years. I have all the respect in the world for you. In my mind, you're one of the founding fathers who made HBO what it was, and DBO what it is. So when you describe me the way that you did above, I take it to heart. You have, in the past, inferred that you say the things that others won't because they're too nice (you've mentioned Claude and Levi specifically)... more people I respect and look up to. So I believe you. But I also feel you are 100% wrong in your assessment of me.

Either way, maybe I should just fuck off.

I'm honored that I have your respect. So with that, listen to my argument below.

I see others of you are also chiming in with shock and disgust, that's fine. Hear me out as well. And I also take heart in seeing that some of you (Funkmon, Kermit, etc.) GET WHAT I'M SAYING.

Here's my problem - the attitude around here is that we are king - the customer is entitled to a full, glorious experience. The company fails if that is not met. I find this unreasonable to the extreme. Even when things are discussed and 'constructively criticized' it feels like just another justification in saying "I'm not happy with what they did, they missed the ball."

I challenged you above Cruel, you can feel free to accept my challenge or just tell me to hose off. Either way, If you guess what I'm talking about or not, I'll then reveal that exact example of what I'm talking about from a thread below. But here's a hint - and not me trying to weasel my way out of this: It's not some revelatory example of how something said is terrible from all angles. It's subtle, it's benign. But my point is that it occurs over and over and over again, and as it adds up, it 'colors' the conversation. It leads to other folks looking at each other and wondering "Really? It's that bad?"

Maybe as it's revealed you will all collectively say "THAT'S what you're upset about?" and again I have lost face amongst you - clearly I'll take my lumps. Some of you have showed such a thin skin about all this, I can tell it's all over regardless, but that's fine.

To those of you privately reaching out to me, I thank you for the support. For those of you publically lambasting me, I still thank you for the reaction at least. Maybe there can be engagement here.

The greatest victory is that Cody at least hasn't returned. If he's moved on all the better.

- M

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...or completely delusional.

Like, Wow. That is some textbook Orwellian / Agent Smith stuff.

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…as someone who has known Mig for a very long time, the "oh man you're being so uncool" posts are making me smile. Let's get back to reality here: Mig is one of the nicest people I've ever met, virtually, or in real life.

People saying "oh man, DBO is turning into a harsh place blah blah…" let's just re-read the first sentence of the original post.

In other words, let's look at the TONE of the conversation that's being established here: "Even before Destiny was announced I correctly predicted the manipulative elements and general crassness of the game design."

Now Claude tells me Mr. Miller is a very nice person -- and that's fine, and I'll therefore give him (Miller) the benefit of the doubt.

But in my not-so-humble-opinion, I can't think of a douchier, more self-serving (and self-servicing, while we're at it), more arrogant way to begin not just any post, but even a goodbye post. Oh you knew it all along did you? Then why did you play, oh enlightened one?

And as anyone who has played any real addictive games will tell you, the guys who have the big dramatic formal goodbyes are COMPLETELY full of shit. When people are really going to stop playing, they just stop playing and you don't hear from them again-- the dudes who do the theatrics will inevitably be back.

Love and peace,

-n

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Some good byes are goodbyes. Cody will always be with us, though, so you're definitely right in this instance. Maybe not for a while, but he'll be here. And he's always been nice to me personally.

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Fair enough dude -- I'm just saying that in my experience, and that's WoW experience, people who are like OMGIAMQUITTING always come back, and people who quit for real just don't show up anymore.

I am happy with any outcome, just wanted to share that bit of info!

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You're probably right on then. I was thinking about Halo and Bungie fans, not the MMO guys. You know way more than me in that regard.

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Believe me, I wish I didn't : (

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Ah. You don't like Cody. That entitles someone else to be an asshole to totally different person. Good point.

But you can't think of a douchier, more self-serving (and self-servicing, while we're at it), more arrogant way to begin a post? Let me help you. Imagine if someone came Back after a long absence caused by his ability to predict the grim future of a message board (which is TOTALLY OK because it's NOT predicting the grim future of a video game - that's unacceptable.) and told the people who stayed behind and made it into something that they were diseased and their very thoughts - and the terrible act of sharing them on a message board - were spreading a virus that is ruining everything.

But don't worry! Daddy's home and he's here to civilize the natives. He's going to teach us how to meet his standards for talking about video games on the Internet! He brought with him the strong pedagogical tools of being a crass asshole, and blaming people for things they can't influence that happen on other web sites just because he's cast himself as a valiant rebel against the conflated mass of everyone who does not agree with his viewpoint.

The first homework assignment? Try to decipher his rambling insults to figure out just what the hell it is that he even is bothered by — if a puny mind like yours even can. I sure hope I can. I'd hate to think I might not be one of the ones who can be saved by DBO's very own self-appointed Christ figure.

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...This is going to keep going turtles all the way down. If everybody who supports or decries the original posts pairs off with another in an antagonistic situation, it's going to turn into a bad superhero vs superhero comic that never ends.

So let's all cool our jets, shall we? There's plenty of hostility in this thread already, we don't have to echo it to hash it out. :)

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Cody has been railing against investment systems since Halo: Reach in 2010, so it's no surprise to see him go out with a post about it.

People that play with Cody regularly, and those that have actually met him say that he is a good guy. I've met Schooly and Mig in person, and they were completely different people in person than what i expected from their online personas, so i can understand that.

If you had a scale of -10 to +10, Cody would be on one end and Mig on the other. If you sat down with them in person, they would each be a 0. I really don't think either of them are trolling, just that they can sometimes be broken records. If you are neutral or on the opposite end of the spectrum, then it looks like trolling.

A lot of problems could be solved by typing down what you want to say in Word, then letting it sit. I can't even count the number of times over the years I've been pissed off by something a forum (this and other forums), typed out a response, and then not caring anymore after i let it sit for 15 mins (i probably don't do it enough though).

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Hitler.

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Godwin's Law strikes again!

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I just re-read my post and your response Vortech, and Shedonnardus' post, and am just starting to embark on Mig's novella, and something occurred to me:

It's not that I don't like Cody. That category is reserved for things like Comcast and enemy warlocks who resurrect and beat the piss out of me. What rubs me is that in order to get into the insights about the game he has (and he does have insights), I have to dig through layers of (stealing Mig's word here) narcissistic fluff and imperious ultimata.

It's like those giant Spanish oranges I used to eat when I was a kid: they were sweet and delicious, but it was a giant pain to peel them (the skin would be fused to the flesh), and you made a sticky mess every time.

You know who else is like that? Me. As anyone who knows me will tell you, I'm a sanctimonious jerk, especially when it comes to Bungie games. "LET ME TELL YOU HOW TO DO THIS, SON." I sometimes have a small twinkle in my eye, or the beginnings of a smirk, sometimes not.

And so I wonder if I pick at Mr. Miller because those unpleasant layers remind me of... me. (Have you noticed all I've talked about is ME, MY oranges, MY personality… hmm, narcissist you say Nico? All that's left is for you to talk about yourself in the 3rd person.)

We all share a deep passion for Bungie games, a disease really, and many of us have contributed to that end, ranging from opening homes (a place to stay), server space, job opportunities, free meals, you name it.

Some of us (I put myself at the top of the list) are a little dysfunctional when it comes to addressing matters that are close to the heart (Bungie.) The only person I would exclude for sure from that list is Buddha Claude, and maybe that's why he's the perfect overlord for not just DBO, but b.org in general.

Shedonnardus is 1000% correct in his post below -- we're all pretty similar when it comes to a real life conversation, and that will be proven if/when we all have lunch together (split the check.)

Also, fuck you Mig, not for whatever content is in your War & Peace posts, but because it's going to take me half a day to read through all of it. [wink / smiley face / twinkle.]

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I mean, maybe the message wasn't delivered in the best manner.

But do you really not see his point. Were you around at HBO? There's a huge difference as to how things were there, versus how things are here. I'm not saying it's bad here, because I still love this community.

But when was the last time you saw a crazy theory post here? When was the last time anyone here posted a cool thing they made? When was the last time 75% of the posts here WEREN'T griping about some facet of the game, whether it be actual bitching or a so called constructive criticism post?

Maybe I misremember, but that sort of stuff happened all the time at HBO. The forum was positively swimming in fan theories, art, cool stories, etc.

I'm not saying there isn't room for criticism of Destiny (or Bungie), but it seems like that's all that ever happens. I've been guilty of it, too, most of us have.

All I'm saying is, at least recognize he has a point. The HBO community is probably largely active here (I would suspect, maybe I'm wrong), so why does it feel so different?

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But when was the last time you saw a crazy theory post here? When was the last time anyone here posted a cool thing they made?

Personally, Destiny doesn't spark my imagination the way Halo did. I absolutely love playing the game, I think the mechanics are top-notch, but from a story/narrative point of view there just isn't enough in this game to spark my imagination the same way. Ironically, this is one of the very issues that leads to so many complaints from the community :-/

That, and Destiny lacks the tools that Halo had for generating user content. I would be up to my eyeballs in making Destiny machinima if I could figure out a way to do it decently well. I'm confident that this will come eventually, but for the time being we don't have the same options that we used to.

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Addressing your post only: I think the difference is that I don't think talking about how halo could have been improved was worth the effort as the game was basically locked. Biggie has shown that they will take community feedback and implement it. Even retroactively making pretty large changes - nit just bug fixes. So that's why I think there are more suggestions for changes here.

I think there was more charming creativity on HBO because the games had creative tools and advanced recording tools in them. I think there is a reason forge and theater are VERY common items on the wish list here but I don't recall ever seeing it on b.net or reddit, etc.

As for why less speculation? I'm less clear I. That. There are bright spots occasionally (see today's podcast link) but I suspect it is because there is not enough known to distinguish what is a potential and what is just totally disconnected story planning. I wonder if the speculation was as strong a part of DBO back with HCE or if it built along with the world building Bungie did. Truly: let me know. My xBO experience skipped from marathon to destiny - mostly. My ILB connections formed our own halo world.

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I think there was more charming creativity on HBO because the games had creative tools and advanced recording tools in them. I think there is a reason forge and theater are VERY common items on the wish list here but I don't recall ever seeing it on b.net or reddit, etc.

Eh. Forge didn't come along until Halo 3, but I was busy for hours a day, every day, cataloging creative stuff the community put together in the 8 years between when HBO opened and when Halo 3 launched.

The Destiny community is MUCH bigger than the Halo community (part of that is 4 platforms, part of that is that more people game now than 10 years ago, etc)... and yet the 'creative' output is lower.

I certainly take responsibility for DBO not highlighting more of this stuff; I don't HAVE hours a day any more for this job, and I think that there's DEFINITELY a relationship between acknowledgement and more creativity... but even on places like Reddit (which, in terms of traffic, is orders of magnitude bigger than we are) it's not happening with the same regularity.

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As for why less speculation? I'm less clear I. That. There are bright spots occasionally (see today's podcast link) but I suspect it is because there is not enough known to distinguish what is a potential and what is just totally disconnected story planning. I wonder if the speculation was as strong a part of DBO back with HCE or if it built along with the world building Bungie did. Truly: let me know. My xBO experience skipped from marathon to destiny - mostly. My ILB connections formed our own halo world.

Do I need to start crossposting lore based theories from /r/raidsecrets? I miss that aspect of HBO. For some reason I feel the community here isn't very interested in drawing parallels between egyptian/greek/roman/norse mythology & destiny. Maybe i'm wrong!

I think there's plenty of the Alpha-Lupi stuff (final image, eigth.mp3, geomancy, etc.) yet to be understood, anyone want to get into it?

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I read all of it. Don't often contribute much, but I really love reading it.

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For some reason I feel the community here isn't very interested in drawing parallels between egyptian/greek/roman/norse mythology & destiny. Maybe i'm wrong!

Or, at least I want to read what you all have to say about it.

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I'm going to sort of mass reply to this little sub thread here, rather than to each post individually.

CruelLEGACY said:

Personally, Destiny doesn't spark my imagination the way Halo did. I absolutely love playing the game, I think the mechanics are top-notch, but from a story/narrative point of view there just isn't enough in this game to spark my imagination the same way. Ironically, this is one of the very issues that leads to so many complaints from the community :-/

This sort of surprises me. Sure, it's arguable that there's not as much story in Destiny to draw you in, but there is much more lore within the Grimoire than we got in Halo. Granted, maybe a lot of folks in the Destiny population never even see that, but I would be willing to bet that a huge majority of folks on DBO have (if not everyone).

Destiny captures my imagination at least as much as Halo did, if not more. That imagery of the Traveler above the Last City is powerful, at least on par with the first time you land on Halo and look up at the ring. In the same vein, the wreckage at the Reef is enthralling. What happened there to cause so much destruction? How do the Awoken survive there? There's plenty of things within Destiny to capture imagination, I think it's just passed a lot of folks by for some reason.

Vortech said:

Addressing your post only: I think the difference is that I don't think talking about how halo could have been improved was worth the effort as the game was basically locked. Biggie has shown that they will take community feedback and implement it. Even retroactively making pretty large changes - nit just bug fixes. So that's why I think there are more suggestions for changes here.

I guess I can't argue with that. People in general seem to be more unhappy with Destiny than Halo, so that gets focused on. Halo was very on-the-ball, and provided tons of features that no one had done before; everything was new and awesome.

It's made me think, though, about expectations regarding games. Halo: Combat Evolved was pretty much universally loved and hailed as an incredible game, the best of it's time. If it was released today, would anyone give a shit? People expect more from games today. Everyone sort of naturally assumed they knew what Destiny was going to be, and when those assumptions turned out to be wrong, the angry mob emerged. Rather than realizing that Bungie didn't promise the game they were expecting, gamers decided they had been screwed and felt they needed to vent their rage everywhere and anywhere.

Claude said:

Forge didn't come along until Halo 3, but I was busy for hours a day, every day, cataloging creative stuff the community put together in the 8 years between when HBO opened and when Halo 3 launched.

Red vs. Blue being the obvious example. Machinima was possible then without Theater mode, why not now?

The Destiny community is MUCH bigger than the Halo community (part of that is 4 platforms, part of that is that more people game now than 10 years ago, etc)... and yet the 'creative' output is lower.

It saddens me. I am working on something, though. Was going to submit it for the Bungie art contest, but real life and a bit of laziness got in the way, and it's still nowhere near finished.

I certainly take responsibility for DBO not highlighting more of this stuff; I don't HAVE hours a day any more for this job, and I think that there's DEFINITELY a relationship between acknowledgement and more creativity... but even on places like Reddit (which, in terms of traffic, is orders of magnitude bigger than we are) it's not happening with the same regularity.

I think there definitely is a relationship, too, although that saddens me a bit, too. Being on the front page shouldn't be a driving factor to create awesome things, but maybe for some it is. Heck, when I was young and dumb, I used to love being called out on the HBO front page (What's that?) for pointing out a news story, and that's not even a notable achievement, so I do get the correlation.

By no means is the lack of community content your fault Claude (and I don't think you see it that way, either). I think part of it is maybe the fact that we're all older, have different priorities. I certainly don't have the time (or inclination) to waste days upon days playing video games, watching game videos, reading game sites and forums, etc. When I was younger, I could do all that for hours upon hours. It's taken a while, but I've come to realize that life is more important than that stuff. There's this wonderful thing called Outside that's pretty amazing to visit sometimes.

Granted, I don't know the ratio of new folks to old here. Being older and having other priorities can't account for all of it; I'm sure there are quite a few younger folks here, too.

Somehow, I feel like generally speaking for what I've observed, the excitement and wonder is fading from gaming in general. I remember each Halo release, being excited, the community being excited, the news channels all doing stories on how whatever Halo it was is supposed to be the biggest launch in gaming history, etc. It was a different time then, and I think (again, in general) folks are a bit more jaded now.

dogcow said:

Do I need to start crossposting lore based theories from /r/raidsecrets? I miss that aspect of HBO. For some reason I feel the community here isn't very interested in drawing parallels between egyptian/greek/roman/norse mythology & destiny. Maybe i'm wrong!

I think there's plenty of the Alpha-Lupi stuff (final image, eigth.mp3, geomancy, etc.) yet to be understood, anyone want to get into it?

Yes, absolutely you do. I'll admit, I've been to /r/raidsecrets a few times, but I didn't have much time to browse, or wasn't in the mood at the time to dig too deeply. I felt a bit like I was out of the loop, and I needed to be a bit more aware of what had already been happening to really get some of the newer posts. That's not a fault of /r/raidsecrets, or maybe not even necessarily true, but just something I felt.

I, too, love that sort of stuff, to an extent. I'm more into the lore of things; I couldn't really care less about a sixth chest (until it's found!). I don't care about all the posts looking for it. I think it's great some people are doing that sort of stuff, I'm just not going to spend my time thinking about or trying all sorts of ridiculous things to try and find it. I just like some of the lore connections and hints.

So, yes, absolutely post any of that stuff; it's the sort of thing I feel is sorely missed around here.

As a final thought:

I'm not implying anyone here is at fault for any lack of content or anything like that. I fully realize that I have not contributed much, or anything, in the way of speculation or cool art or anything of that nature.

I can't say it'll get better (I hope it does!), but I love this place regardless. You guys led me through my first raids, and it was an absolute blast. Also, as stupid as it sounds, it's great to play with some of the "big names" of the bungie.org community. The one hundred person friends list of the past generation prevented some of that (in my mind, at least. I always just figured that Wu's friends list was full, or Blackstar's, or Stuntmutt's, etc.) Now I play regularly with Kermit and Blackstar (I've still yet to play a game with Claude), but I feel more included now than I ever did at HBO (again, that pretty much all self-imposed). The only time in the Halo days that I've had this much fun with the community was during Halo 2, when the HBO clans were set up (HBOForerunners for life!), but those clans basically became their own separate community. I still talk to the few members of the Forerunners that are left pretty regularly, but they're not active here anymore.

Basically what it boils down to is this: When it comes to actually playing Bungie games, and having a great time together, this community is still the best around. We've just been slipping a bit on having the coolest things happening on the forum and coolest content creation, etc. That's no one's fault, it's just something that happened. Maybe perceived negativity of folks like Cody infected the place. I don't really feel like that happened, but I only came back into this community recently, so I can't say. It's been like this since I got here. I never really noticed it as a problem, until this thread happened and shit got crazy. I think I never perceived it because I took everything people said with a grain of salt. I took it for granted that everyone here (for the most part) is a Bungie fan first, and we all share that. I brushed off almost all hyperbole, thinking that folks were doing it on purpose just to make a point.

I still enjoy my time here, and I for those of you that I've been lucky enough to play with, I've greatly enjoyed that, too. It's what keeps me coming back here.

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Vortech said:

Addressing your post only: I think the difference is that I don't think talking about how halo could have been improved was worth the effort as the game was basically locked. Biggie has shown that they will take community feedback and implement it. Even retroactively making pretty large changes - nit just bug fixes. So that's why I think there are more suggestions for changes here.

I guess I can't argue with that. People in general seem to be more unhappy with Destiny than Halo, so that gets focused on. Halo was very on-the-ball, and provided tons of features that no one had done before; everything was new and awesome.

I dunno. As much of a Bungie fan as I have been, I'm a Mac fan much more and I remember all the anger around Bungie abandoning the platform that made them who they are, and breaking their "promises" by not releasing on the Mac after they showed the demo at MacWorld Expo and allowing their Publisher/Owner to lead them to the evil dark side. All of this sounds SO FAMILIAR, like it was only a year ago…

I remember Penny arcade's scathing criticisms of repetitive content and stupid task-based storyline that leaves so many questions unanswered.

It's made me think, though, about expectations regarding games. Halo: Combat Evolved was pretty much universally loved and hailed as an incredible game, the best of it's time. If it was released today, would anyone give a shit? People expect more from games today. Everyone sort of naturally assumed they knew what Destiny was going to be, and when those assumptions turned out to be wrong, the angry mob emerged. Rather than realizing that Bungie didn't promise the game they were expecting, gamers decided they had been screwed and felt they needed to vent their rage everywhere and anywhere.

I will say I agree that the expectations are greater. Not just for Games in general, but Bungie in particular. People were expecting so much while transitioning between the end of one franchise to the beginning of another and the end of one console generation to the beginning of another.

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I dunno. As much of a Bungie fan as I have been, I'm a Mac fan much more and I remember all the anger around Bungie abandoning the platform that made them who they are, and breaking their "promises" by not releasing on the Mac after they showed the demo at MacWorld Expo and allowing their Publisher/Owner to lead them to the evil dark side. All of this sounds SO FAMILIAR, like it was only a year ago…

I wasn't around for that, so I can't really comment there, other than to say I guess it probably is similar to what people are saying about Bungie/Activision.

I will say I agree that the expectations are greater. Not just for Games in general, but Bungie in particular. People were expecting so much while transitioning between the end of one franchise to the beginning of another and the end of one console generation to the beginning of another.

I guess that's my point. I think people built up their expectations too much. Remember what Halo: CE was? It was a campaign with tacked on multiplayer. Now think of how much Halo grew, how much was added to that already amazing base layer. Destiny is that base layer, and what is still to come is even better. People would do well to remember how Halo evolved. They didn't deliver everything all at once.

I've actually been meaning to start a thread, but may as well just ask it here: Do you think being the creators of Halo hurt Bungie in terms of Destiny? I would say yes; people expected too much, expected things Bungie never mentioned. People assumed Destiny would have Forge or Theater or whatever. I don't even find that unreasonable to assume, but from what I can recall, Bungie didn't even so much as HINT at any of those things, so no one really had any reason to assume they would be in Destiny.

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Yeah. I do.

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Huh, I remember the rage of the Mac crowd pretty vividly too.

http://forums.bungie.org/halo/archive2.pl?read=34625

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Huh, I remember the rage of the Mac crowd pretty vividly too.

http://forums.bungie.org/halo/archive2.pl?read=34625

Heh, from a few days before: young Kermit (a.k.a. Gorehead), making an early attempt at being a Bungie apologist.

http://forums.bungie.org/halo/archive2.pl?read=34037

I'm so freaking predictable.

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Excellent, I'd i see any interesting lore-mythology type posts from raidsecrets I'll share them here. There have been some fun ones that I might just dig up for the fun of it.

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I'll just add comments to some of your own, if you don't mind.

I'm going to sort of mass reply to this little sub thread here, rather than to each post individually.

CruelLEGACY said:

Personally, Destiny doesn't spark my imagination the way Halo did. I absolutely love playing the game, I think the mechanics are top-notch, but from a story/narrative point of view there just isn't enough in this game to spark my imagination the same way. Ironically, this is one of the very issues that leads to so many complaints from the community :-/

This sort of surprises me. Sure, it's arguable that there's not as much story in Destiny to draw you in, but there is much more lore within the Grimoire than we got in Halo. Granted, maybe a lot of folks in the Destiny population never even see that, but I would be willing to bet that a huge majority of folks on DBO have (if not everyone).

This is a good point as it reveals again the binary way the majority decides to discuss it. It's either tightly merged into the game or it fails. The work that was put into the lore is dismissed simply because it wasn't brought into the game. It's like Bungie is being punished for taking any time at all to include it. I even recall reading that folks *do* think that if it couldn't be fit within the game, that it should've been removed completely. I can't even process that.

That's not to say it can't be criticized, my point is just that it's seen as 0/1 which is unfair.

Destiny captures my imagination at least as much as Halo did, if not more. That imagery of the Traveler above the Last City is powerful, at least on par with the first time you land on Halo and look up at the ring. In the same vein, the wreckage at the Reef is enthralling. What happened there to cause so much destruction? How do the Awoken survive there? There's plenty of things within Destiny to capture imagination, I think it's just passed a lot of folks by for some reason.

I would add that there's alot of the game mechanics itself that is simply wonderous. I think it's glossed over just how spectacular the weapons and physics work.

Vortech said:

Addressing your post only: I think the difference is that I don't think talking about how halo could have been improved was worth the effort as the game was basically locked. Biggie has shown that they will take community feedback and implement it. Even retroactively making pretty large changes - nit just bug fixes. So that's why I think there are more suggestions for changes here.

I guess I can't argue with that. People in general seem to be more unhappy with Destiny than Halo, so that gets focused on. Halo was very on-the-ball, and provided tons of features that no one had done before; everything was new and awesome.

It's made me think, though, about expectations regarding games. Halo: Combat Evolved was pretty much universally loved and hailed as an incredible game, the best of it's time. If it was released today, would anyone give a shit? People expect more from games today. Everyone sort of naturally assumed they knew what Destiny was going to be, and when those assumptions turned out to be wrong, the angry mob emerged.

Rather than realizing that Bungie didn't promise the game they were expecting, gamers decided they had been screwed and felt they needed to vent their rage everywhere and anywhere.

This is very key to one of my own theories, because if you look back at THIS very forum here over a year ago. Folks were absolutely apoplectic that the game was going to be the second coming. And if you look at some of my early posts here, I was completely on the fence and did *not* like their marketing efforts. It was during the closing weeks before launch, seeing them at PAX, the interviews and panels they gave, that I started to see WHY they were having such a problem with the marketing. But anyway my point is that folks were completely hyped up, and then the game was released and (along with the shuffling off of those that just plain didn't like it) we got folks that were very upset that it didn't meet their expectations… that it was a poor attempt at an MMO, a bad hybrid, that it was ignoring established standards on how the mechanics should've worked. That laid the groundwork for Bungie to, from a PR standpoint, go into rescue mode, and the fans to go into "let me help you with my pointers on what needs fixing" - and it hasn't budged much I think. It's an interesting dynamic. Kermit touched on some great observations about that in one of his posts here.

Claude said:

Forge didn't come along until Halo 3, but I was busy for hours a day, every day, cataloging creative stuff the community put together in the 8 years between when HBO opened and when Halo 3 launched.

Red vs. Blue being the obvious example. Machinima was possible then without Theater mode, why not now?

The Destiny community is MUCH bigger than the Halo community (part of that is 4 platforms, part of that is that more people game now than 10 years ago, etc)... and yet the 'creative' output is lower.

This to me is another example of where Bungie made a gamble - They decided and I think it has been stated early on… that they purposely chose not to offer all the bells and whistles that would 'complete' the game. From their perspective, they were giving the community an opportunity. Look at all the great work done on Halo through the community. They wanted to leave an open spot for users to present their work. I think it has succeeded! But for some reason the corollary has been glossed over - it's still seen as a failure on Bungie's part for not having taken care of it themselves.

It saddens me. I am working on something, though. Was going to submit it for the Bungie art contest, but real life and a bit of laziness got in the way, and it's still nowhere near finished.

I certainly take responsibility for DBO not highlighting more of this stuff; I don't HAVE hours a day any more for this job, and I think that there's DEFINITELY a relationship between acknowledgement and more creativity... but even on places like Reddit (which, in terms of traffic, is orders of magnitude bigger than we are) it's not happening with the same regularity.

I think there definitely is a relationship, too, although that saddens me a bit, too. Being on the front page shouldn't be a driving factor to create awesome things, but maybe for some it is. Heck, when I was young and dumb, I used to love being called out on the HBO front page (What's that?) for pointing out a news story, and that's not even a notable achievement, so I do get the correlation.

By no means is the lack of community content your fault Claude (and I don't think you see it that way, either). I think part of it is maybe the fact that we're all older, have different priorities. I certainly don't have the time (or inclination) to waste days upon days playing video games, watching game videos, reading game sites and forums, etc. When I was younger, I could do all that for hours upon hours. It's taken a while, but I've come to realize that life is more important than that stuff. There's this wonderful thing called Outside that's pretty amazing to visit sometimes.

Granted, I don't know the ratio of new folks to old here. Being older and having other priorities can't account for all of it; I'm sure there are quite a few younger folks here, too.

Somehow, I feel like generally speaking for what I've observed, the excitement and wonder is fading from gaming in general. I remember each Halo release, being excited, the community being excited, the news channels all doing stories on how whatever Halo it was is supposed to be the biggest launch in gaming history, etc. It was a different time then, and I think (again, in general) folks are a bit more jaded now.

I'll add myself as the outlier, while I should be older and less inclined to play - the game has had a strong grip on me. There's a sweet spot for the amount of playing I can do and how much enjoyment I'd want from the game, and it has been met over and over the year. I have to give my wife many thanks for allowing me the time of course.

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Totally agree about Destiny is disappointing in large measure because of expectations we created on our own.

So glad you've popped back up and are here.

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Totally agree about Destiny is disappointing in large measure because of expectations we created on our own.

are you saying that you have been disappointed and that was why?

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Mig, I'm very disappointed with the way you've handled all of this. I think you owe CruelLEGACEY, Cody Miller, and the community in general a big apology. I think you need to majorly rethink how you interact with this community. And it legitimately makes me sad to have to say any of that to you.

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Thanks for taking the time to write back. I'm going to try to keep this short.

Here's what I feel is at the heart of the matter: Bungie ASKS for constructive feedback. They tell us they like it, want it, need it. You seem to feel that any (literally ANY) criticism leveled at Destiny or Bungie is a sign of some sort of addiction-fueled entitlement. That's fine. You are obviously entitled to your opinions, We don't see eye to eye there, and that's totally cool. (Although I must point out that the game we're all here to talk about is better today than it was at launch, in no small part to the constructive feedback from the community).

Where I have a problem is with your repeated assertions that any if us who enjoy healthy, respectful, and constructive discussions about what we like and dislike about the game are some sort of virus or cancer that must be purged if DBO is to be "saved". You've described your ideal version of DBO, and seemed surprised when I said I can't see the positive in it. I stand by my words specifically because of what you don't allow. Instead of saying to yourself "I don't enjoy those kinds of discussions, I'll just ignore them" you have gone out of your way to make me and several others feel entirely unwelcome. Coming from you, I find this behavior extremely disappointing.

You said it yourself: you barely post here. I wish you would post more often, and maybe spend more time participating in the countless fun, helpful, and insightful discussions that go in here daily. Before today, I was just thinking to myself how great the vibe has been here lately. Pretty much everyone has been getting along nicely.

In the past couple months, the strongest sources of drama and frustration that I've witnessed have actually been some of your recent posts. I know you are coming from a place of love for DBO, but all I can suggest to you is that perhaps DBO doesn't actually need "saving".

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Huh.

...

Huh.

I get that you want to have 8 different conversations at the same time. However, you mixing your spectrum of disorders that you see with the bungie community at large and boiling those down to personal attacks for people on this forum, to incite a discussion, really don't help your cause at all. It just makes you look like one of the hateful internet mob you say you're fighting, even if your cause is different than theirs.

If you have a case, surely you can make that case without bringing personal attacks into it? I mean you even admitted that you're going over the top to try and spark reaction, and that your reply is more to the community as a whole (beyond this forum) rather than the named people in the post.

You really can't see why people have a problem with that? Even if they agree that the community overall could be better?

I play this game primarily because of it's social nature. Just like Marathon coop, jsut like Halo LAN parties. It's the shared experience that keeps me coming back. That's about individuals. And you're throwing rocks at individuals that I've played with, and had a good time with. Their opinions about all things destiny don't always line up with mine. That's okay, that's life.

In my eyes it's posts like yours that are a problem on this forum, not the prevailing bungie culture. That's why I'm choosing to be here, not on reddit, not on bungie.net or wherever... because of the positive, friendly nature of this forum and the people who come here.

I am disappointed that you can't see things from that angle. Or maybe worse, you are ignoring that, because of a discussion that none of us but you want to have, taken from elsewhere and brought here. Because that's what this really feels like. A discussion you really want to have, based on a whole ton of discussions you've seen or been part of before. Not one that reflects the reality of this forum.

If you want to have a discussion, have a discussion. No need to try and piss on someone's goodbye coffin and yell good riddance, while calling out the rest of the living.

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http://www.amazon.com/How-Win-Friends-Influence-People/dp/1508569754

I think a little bit of this could be VERY helpful here at the moment.

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This put a big smile on my face :)

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It was meant to be a little funny, and a little serious at the same time.

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Read it while interviewing around for my first job in the games industry. It's amazing how a lot of the "dated" examples about famous 19th century figures are still 100% applicable in today's world. Some things don't change.

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Read it while interviewing around for my first job in the games industry. It's amazing how a lot of the "dated" examples about famous 19th century figures are still 100% applicable in today's world. Some things don't change.

I certainly need to reread it & practice applying some of its principles. It's been on my mind since a confrontation I had while camping back in June. A male camper from another site approached my wife while she was alone & proceeded to yell and cuss at her about where she was brushing her teeth, he ended with telling her to go f*** off in the woods, upon hearing all of this I left our campsite to confront him, and like a champ I kept my cool, but still, escalated the situation by my approach.

Anyway, it's been on my mind since and I'm pretty sure people involved in this "discussion" could benefit from it. Mig trying to influence DBO's behavior, me & others trying to influence Mig's behavior, anyone who wants to influence another's behavior in a positive way, GOOD lessons are to be had in this book.

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It is good. Don't think he thought of internet forums, though.

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Seems like people are still complaining about Mig's "attack" on Cruel, without trying to engage with him. I think we’re taking everything personally, especially those who know and have played with Cruel. That’s natural. In the same way, Mig’s not just a name on a screen for me, either.

My thoughts: Mig said 90% of his OP was directed at Cody, and he took the opportunity to tease others. Mig likes to tease. It's part of his humor, but I get it that many of you don't know that. I think this last post of his apologizes enough.

About Cody--he had interesting arguments that compelled me to think about why I disagreed with him most of time. I guess I'll miss that, but overall I'm glad he's gone. I take Claude's word that he's a great guy in person, and every interaction I had with him in-game was positive. I really enjoyed playing the game with Cody and talking with him over a headset, but the Internet Cody Miller often was a giant douche, and I know some of you jumping on Mig right now absolutely agree with that.

Cody and his brand of cynicism is the virus Mig speaks of, I think. We’ve all been infected. Yes, Mig shat on Cody’s goodbye post, but Cody’s goodbye post was all self-aggrandizement and shitting on all of us rubes who stay because we fall for Bungie’s “tricks.”

I understand what Mig’s saying. Here's how it manifests for me: I don't feel like I can let my bungie freak flag fly anymore. I feel shy about it. I feel I must include disclaimers, acknowledge sins, and make sure people understand that I did not just fall off the turnip truck as a gamer. I blame Cody in this local context, but he’s certainly part of a larger problem.

I love this place and 99% of the people here. I’m confident that it’s the best community I’ll find, but often I feel like I’m back in grad school where I realized I wasn't allowed to love literature or admire writers any more. I had to give deference to the political meaning of it all, the power structures in play, and all the “isms.” (An aside: that Journey podcast posted the other day was great except for that idiot who kept saying it was about white people and brown [sic] people.) A cigar couldn’t be appreciated as a cigar anymore (Levi, I totally got the penis vs. sword ref). If I began a sentence with “The genius of Dickens …” I was looked at askance.

In Bungie fandom these days the liturgy is Dinklage sucks, the progression system sucks, the story sucks, exclusives suck, Grimoire should be in the game, Activision is evil, Bungie isn’t Bungie anymore, we deserve a game that does such-and-such, and on and on. You have to dig through all of this to find any joy and wonder at what Bungie has created. If Randall Glass made the Warthog Jump video today, someone would point out how lame it is that all the ragdoll animations are the same, and someone else would say we should just be able to drop grenades and it shouldn’t require so much work.

A long-time buddy of mine in his 40s very recently started playing Destiny. He’s digging it, but he says it’s been weird playing with his work buddies who are jaded and cynical. I witnessed this, too. I bought some green stuff to delevel and was playing through the Black Garden with him (his first time) and a 20-something co-worker of his joined as a 34, killed most the things, sounded bored as hell while doing it, and then, before the final cutscene loaded, sarcastically said, “Prepare yourself to watch the greatest ending to a video game ever.” When the cutscene started he began talking over it, describing what he planned to play next. I shut him down, but the whole thing felt emblematic. The message was that there’s nothing interesting in the game except where’s my next loot drop is coming from. Being an enthusiastic fan is gauche.

At DBO, the best of places, you see the virus at work in the best of us. (And Cruel, I think Mig has made clear that he considers you one of the best). A thread cataloging “wow” moments in Destiny begins with a hat tip to the liturgy (Destiny is no Halo), and then those of us who were wowed many times during the game begin to doubt ourselves. We apologize, we feel obligated to include caveats.

I love Bungie. They’ve earned it from me. I don’t love another game studio the same way. I like 343 a lot, and I don’t keep posting on HBO saying the next Halo might be great, but let me remind you yet again that this is the studio that made the (all together now) disappointing Halo 4 with awkward terminals and weapons that instantly despawn.

Destiny is an amazing game and as time goes on some of its flaws have ceased to matter to me. Other so-called flaws now seem like strengths. I missed the upfront storytelling, and maybe some of the gossip about its troubled development is true, but now I’m thinking they have a plan for the story and we could look back in ten years and be stunned by what they pulled off. The art on the frontpage right now--I’m struck by the fact that Destiny is one of the only games where the game itself exceeds the vision put forth by the concept art. I could go on.

I had an epiphany a little while ago where I realized I really love this game, and because the virus is so strong, I started wondering if there was something wrong with me. Maybe there’s nothing wrong. Bungie kept their promises in all important respects. It is a place I like going to. It does provide an activity for every mood. I do enjoy playing with friends. I may not always play it as much as I do right now, but I’ll look forward to coming back. I’m a fanboy. Call me that, I don’t care. I thought Bungie.Org existed for people like me.

I mentioned age several times, and I want you to know that some of you younger folks are my favorite people to play with, but it does strike me as funny sometimes that I’m not the cynical old codger. I like the dream forum that Mig describes, and don’t get why that isn’t appealing, but I like the forum as is (at least better than any other). So many great people here. Look forward to growing even older with you.

Speaking of age, I need to make another post.

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I agree with everything you said. The game has issues, but every game, including Halo, has major issues. I love Destiny, and I feel no shame in saying so. As you said: let your Bungie freak flag fly!

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In Bungie fandom these days the liturgy is Dinklage sucks, the progression system sucks, the story sucks, exclusives suck, Grimoire should be in the game, Activision is evil, Bungie isn’t Bungie anymore, we deserve a game that does such-and-such, and on and on. You have to dig through all of this to find any joy and wonder at what Bungie has created. If Randall Glass made the Warthog Jump video today, someone would point out how lame it is that all the ragdoll animations are the same, and someone else would say we should just be able to drop grenades and it shouldn’t require so much work.

Well, hold on a minute. I think grimoire would be a lot better in the game. But I think what you're saying is that basically, if you were to say you liked the story, you need to start by heading people off at the pass by saying "Grimoire should obviously be in the game, but here's what I liked about the story presentation." Like some people who apologize for being white American male before talking about almost anything.

Is that the case?

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Well, hold on a minute. I think grimoire would be a lot better in the game. But I think what you're saying is that basically, if you were to say you liked the story, you need to start by heading people off at the pass by saying "Grimoire should obviously be in the game, but here's what I liked about the story presentation." Like some people who apologize for being white American male before talking about almost anything.

Is that the case?

Well I also think he's talking about the fact that several us have no problem with it being online only. Which people actually take offense to for some reason, like the few of us that just plain don't mind would somehow sway Bungie to say "Ah nevermind, Xenos says it's fine online, scrap putting it in game!"

(And yes I mean that, I have ZERO issues with it being online only. Would it bother me if they put in game? Not at all, but I am ambivalent to it happening.)

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Well, hold on a minute. I think grimoire would be a lot better in the game. But I think what you're saying is that basically, if you were to say you liked the story, you need to start by heading people off at the pass by saying "Grimoire should obviously be in the game, but here's what I liked about the story presentation." Like some people who apologize for being white American male before talking about almost anything.

Is that the case?

Well I also think he's talking about the fact that several us have no problem with it being online only. Which people actually take offense to for some reason, like the few of us that just plain don't mind would somehow sway Bungie to say "Ah nevermind, Xenos says it's fine online, scrap putting it in game!"

(And yes I mean that, I have ZERO issues with it being online only. Would it bother me if they put in game? Not at all, but I am ambivalent to it happening.)

Interesting thing about that: it makes me want to tell you not only do I disagree with you about the Grimoire, but you're wrong, even though that's very unlikely to go anywhere enjoyable or enlightening... and I'm not sure why. As you point out, your opinion probably not going to change what happens or doesn't happen. I suspect it's because I don't feel like what you said about it not affecting anything is true, or because I want it to be true because if your opinion doesn't affect things then my contrasting opinion won't either, or because I just feel that strongly about it. Whatever it is, I feel like that feeling-- "what are you doing, you're wrong, shut up and let me correct you"-- is where a lot of the conversational stress on here and maybe a lot of other forums comes from (as opposed to the stress just related to the game).

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Great post, Kermit.

What you're saying makes a lot of sense to me. But if I may, I'd like to offer a slightly different take.

I'm going to speak 100% about my own feelings here. Not the community in general, popular opinion, or any of that stuff.

I let my Destiny freak flag fly daily. I'm wearing a Destiny T-shirt right now. I make and share videos about it, I talk about it on Facebook & twitter, I discuss it on my podcast, not because I have to but because I'm enthusiastic about it. I love playing the game, I love playing with all the friends I've made here, and I love the community in general.

All that said, I don't think Destiny is perfect. I sing it's praises from the rooftops, and I also like to talk about my personal problems or dislikes. I don't do this out of some sense of peer pressure to tame my excitement. I gave up trying to be "cool" or "fit in" a long time ago. I think you're bang on when you describe the trend of people taming their own enthusiasm for fear of being jumped on by the jaded mobs of the internet. But personally, that just doesn't apply to me. Not anymore. I listen to Taylor Swift every day, I've watched all but the last 2 episode of Vampire Diaries, I dance around the living room with my daughter in my sweatpants with the curtains open, and I can't wait to see the Minions movie. I have no shame expressing my love or enthusiasm for anything. So if I voice a criticism or negative comment, it is for other reasons all together.

I love Destiny... but I don't love it as much as Halo 1, 2, 3, ODST, or Reach. But I think it can be better than any of those games. When I share my thoughts on my personal likes and dislikes within the game, it is not out of a sense of entitlement. I do it because Bungie asks for feedback, and I feel I can provide feedback in a helpful and thoughtful way. I don't expect Bungie to do a damn thing just because I say so. But they have said they want that info from "us" (the Destiny community at large) so I'm happy to do what I can. They can take that info and do whatever they want with it.

THAT is the point of threads like my "ooooh baby moments" post. Bungie has proven time and again that they look, they listen. That doesn't mean I expect them to do anything just to please me... again, I'm just putting it out there for them.

So when Mig describes his ideal DBO as a place where those sorts of posts aren't allowed, I can't agree with him. DBO is precisely the best place for these kinds of posts: a group if relatively mature, thoughtful, dedicated and enthusiastic fans who adore this game and are able to talk about our own personal dislikes without going crazy (most of the time ;p).

If this means there is something wrong with me and I'm bad for DBO (which Mig has said several times now... he just feels he has a chance of redeeming me, unlike others), then I don't really know how to respond. In our quest to curb the trend of pessimism and negativity that runs rampant all over the internet, we need to make sure we're picking the right battles.

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THAT is the point of threads like my "ooooh baby moments" post. Bungie has proven time and again that they look, they listen. That doesn't mean I expect them to do anything just to please me... again, I'm just putting it out there for them.

I almost posted in the oooh baby moments thread with a story... but couldn't decide where to put it. So I left it alone.

I'm going to put it here, because I think it explains a little bit about the problem.

When I was much younger, I joined the Peace Corps, and I went to Guatemala. One week after arriving in country, I went to a large party, being hosted by a volunteer who was leaving after their 2 years. At some point during the evening, I was outside in the back yard, and I happened to look up.

I was 22 at the time, and I had traveled quite a bit as a kid... but I had NEVER seen a sky like the one I was looking up into. We were in the middle of absolutely nowhere in central Guatemala; a tiny village with almost no electricity, so the sky was... the sky, not the dome of human-generated light that most of us (even in rural areas in the US and much of Canada) see. I had never seen so many stars.

I remember sitting down because I was so stunned. My mouth was probably open. While I was sitting on this stump, a volunteer who was nearing the end of her service came and sat down next to me, and looked up to see what I was looking at.

After a few seconds, she looked at me and said "What I wouldn't give to have your week-old eyes."

We get used to beauty and wonder so quickly - I've seen this over and over again, as I go to amazing places. I spent a week once on Namibia's Skeleton Coast, and by the end of it, I hardly even noticed the sweeping dunes. I'd been looking at them for days, they were no longer spectacular.

This is what made me sad about your thread. (The CONCEPT is fantastic. Asking people to think about the things that impressed them... awesome.) You started the thread with "it has very few of these moments for me" - and a huge number of the people who replied agreed. Because they were judging those moments with TODAY'S eyes, and not thinking about the first time they saw whatever it was. Some people even SAID this - The first reply, from TheeChaos, included this line:

I think that I was rather impressed my first time around on alot of things, but I have played everything so much its lost its glammer.

So you started this fantastic thread, where you invited people to remember the things about Destiny that made their jaws drop... but you framed the discussion in terms of how tired you were of all of it because of the repetition. And so the vast majority of responses looked at it from that viewpoint.

My list would have been much closer to Kermit's - but given how the tone of the conversation was when I read the thread, I didn't feel comfortable posting that, so I just stayed out of it.

We KNOW that as humans, the wonder of something disappears with repetition... so it's incumbent on us to spend a little bit of effort to try and remember that wonder when it's gone. (The more repetition that happens, the more important it is to remember the first time.) Of COURSE TheeChaos is going to remember more of Halo's 'high points' if he's only played through them 3 times. But it's not really fair to Destiny to say "because I've been playing this game so much, the wonder's not only gone, I can't even be bothered to remember where it was."

So when Mig describes his ideal DBO as a place where those sorts of posts aren't allowed, I can't agree with him. DBO is precisely the best place for these kinds of posts: a group if relatively mature, thoughtful, dedicated and enthusiastic fans who adore this game and are able to talk about our own personal dislikes without going crazy (most of the time ;p).

I need something to be clear: whether or not Mig actually believes those posts shouldn't be allowed (and I don't actually for a SECOND believe that's what he thinks; I think he'd RATHER folks didn't post that, but that's completely different from DISALLOWING THEM - i think you've totally misunderstood his intention), DBO will NEVER be a place where conversation is censored in that way. No b.org forum has ever been censored in that way. I discourage certain types of posts - but I do it by asking, not by demanding. And that's not going to change.

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First of all, I love that story. Sounds like a fantastic moment :)

This is what made me sad about your thread. (The CONCEPT is fantastic. Asking people to think about the things that impressed them... awesome.) You started the thread with "it has very few of these moments for me" - and a huge number of the people who replied agreed. Because they were judging those moments with TODAY'S eyes, and not thinking about the first time they saw whatever it was.

So that's not actually where I was coming from, or the point I was trying to get across. Not exactly. Re-reading my post, I think I perhaps wasn't specific enough. I wasn't just talking about the "oooh baby" moments, but what follows them as well.

With the Halo games, the "ooooh baby" moments I was referring to are moments that I have replayed over and over and over... as often or more than some of Destiny's missions. The point I was driving at was that the Halo games did a great job of presenting scenarios or encounters that were completely unlike the rest of the game. And that made the story missions far more replayable, because you felt like you were doing something totally different every 10-15 minutes.

Destiny, by comparison, repeats stuff a lot more. In Halo you might drive a warthog around the bend and find a clearing with 2 scarabs, a bunch of ghosts and banshees, marines in tanks and falcons, all squaring off to have an epic battle... and then you get to play the battle and it is unlike any other moment in the series! These unique set-piece moments are few and far between in Destiny. In my opinion, that is what leads to so many of the story missions feeling kind of the same as each other. There isn't much to set them apart from each other, with a few exceptions.

I love the world and mechanics of Destiny so much, sometimes my imagination runs wild with all the stuff I'd like to see happen in future story missions... more than "running into another room full of infantry, kill everything, run through a hallway into another room full of infantry, repeat". I like that, it's great. I just want more variety of experiences, and I was curious to hear if any moments in Destiny stuck out to the crew here at DBO the way some of my favorite Halo moments have stuck with me.

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First of all, I love that story. Sounds like a fantastic moment :)

This is what made me sad about your thread. (The CONCEPT is fantastic. Asking people to think about the things that impressed them... awesome.) You started the thread with "it has very few of these moments for me" - and a huge number of the people who replied agreed. Because they were judging those moments with TODAY'S eyes, and not thinking about the first time they saw whatever it was.

So that's not actually where I was coming from, or the point I was trying to get across. Not exactly. Re-reading my post, I think I perhaps wasn't specific enough. I wasn't just talking about the "oooh baby" moments, but what follows them as well.

With the Halo games, the "ooooh baby" moments I was referring to are moments that I have replayed over and over and over... as often or more than some of Destiny's missions. The point I was driving at was that the Halo games did a great job of presenting scenarios or encounters that were completely unlike the rest of the game. And that made the story missions far more replayable, because you felt like you were doing something totally different every 10-15 minutes.

Destiny, by comparison, repeats stuff a lot more. In Halo you might drive a warthog around the bend and find a clearing with 2 scarabs, a bunch of ghosts and banshees, marines in tanks and falcons, all squaring off to have an epic battle... and then you get to play the battle and it is unlike any other moment in the series! These unique set-piece moments are few and far between in Destiny. In my opinion, that is what leads to so many of the story missions feeling kind of the same as each other. There isn't much to set them apart from each other, with a few exceptions.

I love the world and mechanics of Destiny so much, sometimes my imagination runs wild with all the stuff I'd like to see happen in future story missions... more than "running into another room full of infantry, kill everything, run through a hallway into another room full of infantry, repeat". I like that, it's great. I just want more variety of experiences, and I was curious to hear if any moments in Destiny stuck out to the crew here at DBO the way some of my favorite Halo moments have stuck with me.

So just last night I ran into a situation that sort of fit the 'ooh baby' feeling - but the one I thought you were asking about, not what you're describing above.

I was running through to Skywatch, and I had a bounty that needed a few more melee kills, so I stopped in that room where you pick up your first ship. It's just got a few vandals, and some dregs and shanks, in patrol; I figured it would be quick work to pick up half a dozen melee kills and then be on my way.

And suddenly that Queenbreaker's whatever captain comes out of nowhere and starts kicking my ass. (Almost literally. He came up behind me and whaled on my back.) I'd completely forgotten he's there all the time now, since HoW launched, and I was completely unprepared for him. And he got the jump on me, and if I let him kill me I'd start three different bounties over from scratch.

So a completely banal moment turned into a nailbiter for a few seconds, and my heart rate elevated, and the adrenaline flowed... and it was all completely unexpected.

It's not really a 'favorite' moment - but it sticks out in my memory (at least now, 18 hours later), and it's more memorable for being unexpected.

And you're right - that doesn't happen very often any more... but looking back at Halo, it really doesn't happen there, either. When MCC came out, I played through several of the campaigns, and I found myself playing patterns - I knew exactly where everyone was going to be, it was just a matter of managing the encounters. (I'm not saying this is bad. It's like slipping on an old comfortable sweater; you know EXACTLY where the shoulders are going to sag, you know you have to turn that arm a little to hide the snag on the sleeve. And you love it.) I can't think of any encounters in Halo (any title) that generate as much wonder (or fear, or exhilaration, or whatever you want to call it) as they did the first time through... I think that's because of the familiarity thing.

Which is not to say that you're not entitled to feel like Destiny does a worse job of keeping that interesting vibe going than Halo did, of course.

(I love the battle in Two Betrayals that you pick up the final banshee in, even though I know where EVERY SINGLE ENEMY spawns, and what they're all going to do if I go left, or right, or up the middle, or take a ghost, or snipe from rocks, or whatever. There is almost nothing surprising in that battle any more - but I still like replaying it. Just like I enjoy replaying the Last Array final battle (which shows up in a more complicated form at the beginning of the Omnigul strike, and is just as fun to replay).)

I guess I'm sorry that you find it all the same. I wish I knew why you and I see Halo similarly, but Destiny differently, in this regard. And I'm glad there are still things that keep you interested and playing. ;)

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I wrote a post a couple months ago about a similar pile-up I ran into in Old Russia, where I was hunting a VIP bounty, when the Blades of Crota suddenly appeared right next to a WARSAT public event. An easy-going patrol mission suddenly became a frantic fight for my life. Moments like that are some of my favorites in the game :)

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I'm getting back here, not sure where to insert a post. I'll use this as it's a nice jumping off point. I do want to apologize to Claude for sullying up the forum. I also apologize to Cruel for getting hit with my shrapnel. I obviously overestimated what I could get away with. And I truly was looking for a kinda of Socratic dialogue, where we (Cruel and I) can both engage. But that was a mistake to attempt so soon.

THAT is the point of threads like my "ooooh baby moments" post. Bungie has proven time and again that they look, they listen. That doesn't mean I expect them to do anything just to please me... again, I'm just putting it out there for them.

I almost posted in the oooh baby moments thread with a story... but couldn't decide where to put it. So I left it alone.

I'm going to put it here, because I think it explains a little bit about the problem.

When I was much younger, I joined the Peace Corps, and I went to Guatemala. One week after arriving in country, I went to a large party, being hosted by a volunteer who was leaving after their 2 years. At some point during the evening, I was outside in the back yard, and I happened to look up.

I was 22 at the time, and I had traveled quite a bit as a kid... but I had NEVER seen a sky like the one I was looking up into. We were in the middle of absolutely nowhere in central Guatemala; a tiny village with almost no electricity, so the sky was... the sky, not the dome of human-generated light that most of us (even in rural areas in the US and much of Canada) see. I had never seen so many stars.

I remember sitting down because I was so stunned. My mouth was probably open. While I was sitting on this stump, a volunteer who was nearing the end of her service came and sat down next to me, and looked up to see what I was looking at.

After a few seconds, she looked at me and said "What I wouldn't give to have your week-old eyes."

We get used to beauty and wonder so quickly - I've seen this over and over again, as I go to amazing places. I spent a week once on Namibia's Skeleton Coast, and by the end of it, I hardly even noticed the sweeping dunes. I'd been looking at them for days, they were no longer spectacular.

This is what made me sad about your thread. (The CONCEPT is fantastic. Asking people to think about the things that impressed them... awesome.) You started the thread with "it has very few of these moments for me" - and a huge number of the people who replied agreed. Because they were judging those moments with TODAY'S eyes, and not thinking about the first time they saw whatever it was. Some people even SAID this - The first reply, from TheeChaos, included this line:

I think that I was rather impressed my first time around on alot of things, but I have played everything so much its lost its glammer.

So you started this fantastic thread, where you invited people to remember the things about Destiny that made their jaws drop... but you framed the discussion in terms of how tired you were of all of it because of the repetition. And so the vast majority of responses looked at it from that viewpoint.

My list would have been much closer to Kermit's - but given how the tone of the conversation was when I read the thread, I didn't feel comfortable posting that, so I just stayed out of it.

Claude is pointing to one of the 'problems' as I've phrased it, and Kermit said it too, as did Funkmon, Xenos, and some of you others (If you folks want to disassociate from me because I've been a prick, no prob - I'm not trying to create an us/them situation - I'm just noting folks with what I'm surmising have an attitude similar to mine). The environment here has somehow morphed into where it's acceptable to start conversations with a variation on "boy, this wasn't all I thought it would be…" and still is considered a "positive, constructive" comment. Cody's internet persona was the ultimate expression of that. This is why I aimed my ire at him directly.

And you folks are now seeing the exact result of that… folks that find it all awkward - THEY DO NOT post. So never mind me - I'm the arrogant prick elitist fucktard or whatever - but what do you say now to others that you I'm sure respect?

The meatier, intellectual conversation I would LOVE to have is that we're peering into where expectations are created that are USER driven. No where did Bungie put out there that a weapon you wield must fulfill X, or that Strike A has to hit emotional points a,b, or c or else *you* are not getting the most out of the game. Or that this week's Iron Banner must fit within these parameters or else you've failed. When I see folks complain about the RNG, or what's required to get particular guns, or armor, etc. What I see are folks complaining about things THEY SETUP FOR THEMSELVES.

I don't go to the racetrack and grumble about how much I have to invest in time and money in order to hit some decent $$$. Same for when I go to Atlantic City and sit there with my bucket of coins and spending hours on the slots. I don't eat one orange, then try another orange, and then another, and another, and another, waiting to get that PERFECT orange. I don't roll dice over and over again, angry that I'm getting all snake-eyes! If I *AM* doing that, it's because of something *I* created for myself. Not the racetrack owner, not the casino owner, not the orange seed variants in the ground, and not the physics of plastic cubes bouncing around.

We're not hamsters climbing on the wheel, completely unaware of the futility of running faster or faster… no, what we ARE are free agents that CHOOSE to climb on the wheel, because our friends are doing it, we want to do it with them, we have fun doing it, and we will continue until it's no longer fun.

This to me is the absolutely fascinating thing I've seen around a game like Destiny. Whereas, and this is part of my wonder - Halo did practically ALL the same things - and yet it was never lambasted as a failure, or that it needed our constant feedback and criticism in order to improve it. How many hours did you folks play Halo? How does that compare with Destiny? Were you as equally frustrated with the 'grind' in Halo? Why not? What's different? And is the difference really something that puts Destiny THAT far below Halo in terms of success? Are you sure it's something you have *no* choice but to do? These are questions leveled at the folks who have played Halo and have also played Destiny for about the same length. This doesn't apply to those of you that found the game wanting and left - I'm not trying to turn those of you that DO NOT like Destiny into fans. Far from it, to each his own. No, I'm talking about those of us that come here, that have loved Halo, and now are playing Destiny for same or more hours - but see so many things 'missing' or 'lacking'. I only challenge you: are those things TRULY objective? Or is there a subjective thing going on there? Would it help *a little bit* if when discussing these things, it's acknowledged that there is subjectivity?

If I had added a post to Cruel's 'ooh baby moments' it would've been to the effect that Destiny by the nature of the mechanics, etc., it is *incumbent* on OURSELVES to create our ooh, baby moments. So by that measure, the game can have many or barely any such moments.

If I visit Archon Priest, and I'm 'locking', and I've got my super, and I got the right sniper, and HMG, etc., then yah, that's going to be an OOH BABY MOMENT. If i'm with my buddies, if I'm with the right team of randoms, if if if … The magic will be there. If I'm tired, if I fucked up and super'd already with the Hydra's, or I picked the wrong armor setup, wrong weapons, then the ooh baby moment is not there.

How do I insert that into a post that from the start wants to claim Bungie didn't create enough ooh, baby moments? It's not that I couldn't, but after the thread grows and grows and grows, it takes a life and direction of it's own. My comment becomes less and less relevant - more of an intrusion really. See what I mean?

We KNOW that as humans, the wonder of something disappears with repetition... so it's incumbent on us to spend a little bit of effort to try and remember that wonder when it's gone. (The more repetition that happens, the more important it is to remember the first time.) Of COURSE TheeChaos is going to remember more of Halo's 'high points' if he's only played through them 3 times. But it's not really fair to Destiny to say "because I've been playing this game so much, the wonder's not only gone, I can't even be bothered to remember where it was."

So when Mig describes his ideal DBO as a place where those sorts of posts aren't allowed, I can't agree with him. DBO is precisely the best place for these kinds of posts: a group if relatively mature, thoughtful, dedicated and enthusiastic fans who adore this game and are able to talk about our own personal dislikes without going crazy (most of the time ;p).

I need something to be clear: whether or not Mig actually believes those posts shouldn't be allowed (and I don't actually for a SECOND believe that's what he thinks; I think he'd RATHER folks didn't post that, but that's completely different from DISALLOWING THEM - i think you've totally misunderstood his intention), DBO will NEVER be a place where conversation is censored in that way. No b.org forum has ever been censored in that way. I discourage certain types of posts - but I do it by asking, not by demanding. And that's not going to change.

Thanks Claude because you are right, I never claimed the posts are 'not allowed' I never said criticism is 'not allowed' I never pulled back from one of the tenets of B.O - speech, unless political/religious, is unfettered. Granted I didn't spend much time fleshing *all* aspects of it, but when I wrote that paragraph about the *ideal* of the forum, it DID include "wonder about the potential 9 years of expansion, of how tough it is to make a game this broad in scope and appeal, about how they hit the mark more often than not" those by their very nature imply discussing what is working vs what is not. That's right: CRITICISM.

And the larger point is not that there can NEVER be a post that starts with "Boy, they really didn't do this right." It's that the 'default' position has become just that. *That* is the subtle problem that I've found with the forum.

Paraphrasing:

"Hey, what suckage did Xur bring this time?"
"Hey, how impossible is this event? Bungie needs to fix that."
"Hey, this weapon Bungie released is complete garbage!"
"Hey, I'm so tired of doing this again!"

Sure, some of it is self-deprecating. Some of it is tongue in cheek. But there's also frustration behind alot of it. And it alienates me and others.

David Hume, one of my favorite philosophers, on his treatise on human nature, revealed things to me back when I was young that has stayed with me for the rest of my life. That society is a moving, malleable entity; that justice is something aligned with public sympathy, morality is not crammed down the throat, but driven by example, or guidance. There's a 'general sense of common ground' and it will move with the times. What does that mean? It means folks will come and go, and my only sadness is that if you look at the DBO ABOUT PAGE, look at the people there. How many of them, who have expressed their love for Destiny by working on the site, putting their blood, sweat and tears, some of them among the grizzled ancients. How many of them post here regularly, and in a way that is not REACTIONARY to the thread in hand? What did Levi say? He doesn't bother here anymore - he'll go to twitter instead. So yes, you can have the forum you want, but I only plead with you to look around and give some of us a little acknowledgement to what we're seeing. Is there room to change? Is there room to meet halfway? I dunno. I'd love to find out though.

- m

p.s. for the umpteenth time - I'm not saying you CANNOT POST, I'm not saying you CANNOT CRITICIZE.

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Ironic, since I haven't had time to play more than 3 or 4 IB games this week. :(

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I'm not exactly sure why Mig decided to go with the 'it will be more helpful if you FIGURE OUT what I'm upset about' approach - but Kermit has done a spectacular job of laying out the issue here.

And everyone (EVERYONE) who has participated in this thread so far should read it.

Forget the personal attacks, forget the harsh language, forget that you feel like a friend has been unfairly targeted. READ THIS POST, and think about it.

Nobody is saying you shouldn't express doubts or frustrations or unhappiness with the game. What is important is that IF SOMEONE IS HAPPY WITH THE GAME THEY'RE PLAYING, THEY SHOULDN'T BE MADE TO FEEL BAD ABOUT IT.*

Kermit's comments about having to qualify positive statements to show he's not a rube being taken in by Bungie's money-grabbing techniques really hit home with me; that's become my biggest source of friction here, and I don't even think I recognized it, consciously. I post very little these days, because I feel uncomfortable putting forth unqualified praise - ME, who's been doing this for longer than some of you have been gaming... I'm worried that some of you might think less of me if I say I'm actually enjoying myself. (I get accused of being a blind Bungie fanboy pretty often, but it's by people who don't know me, and who I don't respect at all - so I don't care. The people who post here... I consider most of you friends, to one degree or another, and it's important to me that my friends don't think I'm an idiot. So I'm more careful now than I used to be, because this is more of a 'worldly' place than it's been in the past.)

So when Mig says there's a virus, and that most of us are responsible for propagating it - he's not saying you shouldn't be unhappy with parts of the game, and he's certainly not saying you shouldn't EXPRESS your unhappiness about parts of the game. He's saying you should think about the underlying assumptions you make when you are discussing a topic - do you think we all agree that the story is horribly broken? You shouldn't think that. Because it's not true. (You are ABSOLUTELY WELCOME to think the story is horribly broken - but you should leave room in your discussion for people who disagree with you, and you should treat people who SUGGEST that they disagree with you with the respect that you'd like YOUR ideas to be treated with.)

That's what we're not doing, lately. We're not leaving room for people who disagree with us. When Cody first started ranting about the investment system, and the 'grind', I posted (several times, even) that I didn't consider it a 'grind' because I wasn't playing the way he was playing. Not only did he never acknowledge this, I'm pretty sure he never even really processed it. He read my words, said "he's fooling himself, that's EXACTLY what he's doing, he just doesn't know it", and moved on. And lots and lots and lots of people either agreed outright with that assessment, or, over time, came to accept that assessment as 'the way it is' - if you didn't complain about the grind, you either were lying to yourself, or you were simply not self-aware.

It's not about disagreement. It's about not allowing room for opposing viewpoints. You can frame an argument in a way that makes someone feel small for even thinking about presenting the other side - and that's something that happens more here than on any other b.org forum I can remember. (Hmm... that might not be true. The Myth forum was full of arrogant people for a while, and it was pretty easy to get stepped on if you didn't know what the ground rules were.)

Anyway - I'm not calling everyone arrogant. I'm saying that HOW you frame your argument can be as important to a good discussion as WHAT YOU BRING TO IT.

I, for one, hope Cody's not really gone for good. As much as his absolutist style grated on me, he contributed quite a bit - and as a number of people have already mentioned, I'm of the firm belief that he is NOT his forum persona. He IS a big part of the problem being discussed here - but I see that problem as completely solvable. It's simply a matter of paying attention to how you present your ideas.

*Exception to this rule: If you think Cauldron is a good map, you're a bad person.

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*Exception to this rule: If you think Cauldron is a good map, you're a bad person.

I'm definitely a bad person, but I don't think the two are related. :(

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*Exception to this rule: If you think Cauldron is a good map, you're a bad person.

I'm definitely a bad person, but I don't think the two are related. :(

We should ask Hitler, toilet-paper clumpers, and the dentist that shot Cecil the lion what they think about Cauldron...

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We agreed they were almost as evil as me and Hitler.

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People who do this are the worst kind of evil.

[image]

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People who do this are the worst kind of evil.

It's like they are TRYING to hide it from you...

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If you have a toddler that likes to spin the TP roll then this is a good way to keep the TP on the roll.

Aside from that reason there is ZERO reason to put the TP on this way. NONE. If you do you're almost as bad as funkmon.

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Your post and Kermit's articulated things I felt, but couldn't express, thank you.

And yeah, Cauldron sucks. Can I still be a bad person?

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Too much of a shotgun twitch map. (Two things I suck at.)

Mars Needs Women and Blood Gulch 4eva!

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I'm not exactly sure why Mig decided to go with the 'it will be more helpful if you FIGURE OUT what I'm upset about' approach - but Kermit has done a spectacular job of laying out the issue here.

And everyone (EVERYONE) who has participated in this thread so far should read it.

Forget the personal attacks, forget the harsh language, forget that you feel like a friend has been unfairly targeted. READ THIS POST, and think about it.

Nobody is saying you shouldn't express doubts or frustrations or unhappiness with the game. What is important is that IF SOMEONE IS HAPPY WITH THE GAME THEY'RE PLAYING, THEY SHOULDN'T BE MADE TO FEEL BAD ABOUT IT.*

Kermit's comments about having to qualify positive statements to show he's not a rube being taken in by Bungie's money-grabbing techniques really hit home with me; that's become my biggest source of friction here, and I don't even think I recognized it, consciously. I post very little these days, because I feel uncomfortable putting forth unqualified praise - ME, who's been doing this for longer than some of you have been gaming... I'm worried that some of you might think less of me if I say I'm actually enjoying myself. (I get accused of being a blind Bungie fanboy pretty often, but it's by people who don't know me, and who I don't respect at all - so I don't care. The people who post here... I consider most of you friends, to one degree or another, and it's important to me that my friends don't think I'm an idiot. So I'm more careful now than I used to be, because this is more of a 'worldly' place than it's been in the past.)

So when Mig says there's a virus, and that most of us are responsible for propagating it - he's not saying you shouldn't be unhappy with parts of the game, and he's certainly not saying you shouldn't EXPRESS your unhappiness about parts of the game. He's saying you should think about the underlying assumptions you make when you are discussing a topic - do you think we all agree that the story is horribly broken? You shouldn't think that. Because it's not true. (You are ABSOLUTELY WELCOME to think the story is horribly broken - but you should leave room in your discussion for people who disagree with you, and you should treat people who SUGGEST that they disagree with you with the respect that you'd like YOUR ideas to be treated with.)

That's what we're not doing, lately. We're not leaving room for people who disagree with us. When Cody first started ranting about the investment system, and the 'grind', I posted (several times, even) that I didn't consider it a 'grind' because I wasn't playing the way he was playing. Not only did he never acknowledge this, I'm pretty sure he never even really processed it. He read my words, said "he's fooling himself, that's EXACTLY what he's doing, he just doesn't know it", and moved on. And lots and lots and lots of people either agreed outright with that assessment, or, over time, came to accept that assessment as 'the way it is' - if you didn't complain about the grind, you either were lying to yourself, or you were simply not self-aware.

It's not about disagreement. It's about not allowing room for opposing viewpoints. You can frame an argument in a way that makes someone feel small for even thinking about presenting the other side - and that's something that happens more here than on any other b.org forum I can remember. (Hmm... that might not be true. The Myth forum was full of arrogant people for a while, and it was pretty easy to get stepped on if you didn't know what the ground rules were.)

Anyway - I'm not calling everyone arrogant. I'm saying that HOW you frame your argument can be as important to a good discussion as WHAT YOU BRING TO IT.

I, for one, hope Cody's not really gone for good. As much as his absolutist style grated on me, he contributed quite a bit - and as a number of people have already mentioned, I'm of the firm belief that he is NOT his forum persona. He IS a big part of the problem being discussed here - but I see that problem as completely solvable. It's simply a matter of paying attention to how you present your ideas.

*Exception to this rule: If you think Cauldron is a good map, you're a bad person.

Cauldron is my favorite Trials map. Rounds are tense, but short. Encounters brief and dirty. Any mistake can turn a match around quickly, and if you're too focused on a door, a smart enemy (or two) will hit you from the side faster than Dr. Grant can traumatize a child.

As for the rest of what you said, I totally agree. Your few posts tend to remind me to consider alternative viewpoints, especially when you say "that's not how/why I play the game". It's pretty great to take a step back. It was incidentally in the same thread where Cruel was lamenting how not-ultra-MLG his shotgun roll was, and pretty much everyone (possibly even myself) was telling him that he was wrong to have it, or were telling him how to improve his situation (reroll for these specific perks! All others are crap!). I dunno.

Being on Xbox, and not having my Felwinter sniper, Ammo-vomiting Hammer, or Two-shotting Hawkmoon has opened my eyes to a lot of fun that I wouldn't have considered otherwise, and it made me think of all the friends who can't play the game the same way that I do, and have fun in different ways, with weapons that I once considered pointless, or playing in ways that I'm not used to (When I play Trials on PS4, the lighthouse is pretty much a guarantee. Playing with Paddy on Xbox, I had that same mentality, and it bummed me that I was getting annoyed with his unique playstyle, just because I felt that he was doing it wrong. I wasn't having fun, and I'm sure he wasn't either with me harping on him). It's like you said, it's an underlying venom that permeates the mindset of the community; the feeling that "you're not playing the game right", and it's people like Cody and Funk-"I'm Da Bes"-mon that pound it into peoples' heads over and over around here. It is virulent, and like I said, I don't disagree with Mig... Although tough love can be a bit too tough for those with thinner skin.

It's a shame that you feel afraid of sharing your thoughts on what is ostensibly the one safehaven to do so. It's a huge shame, because I think a glass-half-full mentality is a great thing to have, and if we don't have that, because you feel unwanted in your own dojo, then there is something very, very wrong. We do need to take a step back and look at the community. No, the forum does not need "saving", it needs to fix itself, because it's becoming very dirty and narrow. Where are the lore discussions? Where are the fan creations? Where are the defenses for lesser-known weapons?
It's all "this is stupid", "Bungie screwed up here", "this weapon is OP", and the people who enjoy the game start off in a defensive position in every topic, and it bums me out, though I do try to fight it, but why should I have to fight people to get the point across that I like a game, flaws and all?

I dunno, it's kind of sad that I'm the guy asking others to be nice and think about what they're doing.

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the feeling that "you're not playing the game right", and it's people like Cody and Funk-"I'm Da Bes"-mon that pound it into peoples' heads over and over around here.

Wat

Can someone else who's not Korny give me some help on this? I don't think I act like Cody, and don't want to.

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Wat

Can someone else who's not Korny give me some help on this? I don't think I act like Cody, and don't want to.

Not saying I feel the same way, but I believe he is referring to things such as talking about how Vestian Dynasty is garbage (or other guns for that matter, but really HOW DARE YOU INSULT MY DYNASTY :) so vehemently.

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Ahh. I thought I make myself clear my opinion on how much YMMV on Destiny. The game is so good, just about any gun is a good choice. I think I've said that before, in those words. Many times.

Sometimes in games people say "what should I use for this encounter?" And in the past few months I just say "who cares?" It always works out fine.

Most of the time I'm not serious at all. Vestian dynasty has its place, obviously. When I say those things I feel like I don't need to qualify them with things being my opinion, because most of the time I do anyway, feel like I established myself, and it should be obvious anyway.

What is a good way to mitigate this problem?

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What is a good way to mitigate this problem?

If there is one, I wasn't aware of it. The best way to mitigate this perceived problem, and to mitigate 100% of any ill-will here in this thread is to hang in person, or barring that, play online together.

My two cents anyway.

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It's like you said, it's an underlying venom that permeates the mindset of the community; the feeling that "you're not playing the game right", and it's people like Cody and Funk-"I'm Da Bes"-mon that pound it into peoples' heads over and over around here. It is virulent, and like I said, I don't disagree with Mig... Although tough love can be a bit too tough for those with thinner skin.

It's not about tough love & thin skin. Have you noticed the difference in responses to Mig & Kermit's posts? Miguel's incited flames and anger and discord, Kermit's post has brought about a wonderful civil discourse. I find nothing shocking about the difference in responses as their approaches to the same issue were 180º apart.

Thank goodness Kermit posted what he did so something constructive can come of this, otherwise there would have just been an increase of disharmony & discord here on DBO.

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I agree with you here, Claude.

It's worth also saying that this feeling can run both ways. I have been made to feel like a bad or disloyal fan for not enjoying destiny, and I suspect many people feel that way when they come up against a rival tribe, because that's just what tribes do.

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I agree with you here, Claude.

It's worth also saying that this feeling can run both ways. I have been made to feel like a bad or disloyal fan for not enjoying destiny, and I suspect many people feel that way when they come up against a rival tribe, because that's just what tribes do.

You don't like Destiny?!? What's wrong with you?!?!?

Kidding of course. I totally agree with you honestly. The problem is, just like all two sided debates, the more radical one side gets, the other side usually responds by getting a little bit more radical. It's part of human nature that is hard to suppress.

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Indeed xenos - it's just part of what happens in a first past the past system ;)

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Indeed xenos - it's just part of what happens in a first past the past system ;)

You Brits and your tea, and your accents, and your fancy political systems! :)

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I agree with you here, Claude.

It's worth also saying that this feeling can run both ways. I have been made to feel like a bad or disloyal fan for not enjoying destiny, and I suspect many people feel that way when they come up against a rival tribe, because that's just what tribes do.

You may be be wrong, but you are missed around here. :)

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You're damn right I am. But your aim is sure to improve

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I'm worried that some of you might think less of me if I say I'm actually enjoying myself. (I get accused of being a blind Bungie fanboy pretty often, but it's by people who don't know me, and who I don't respect at all - so I don't care. The people who post here... I consider most of you friends, to one degree or another, and it's important to me that my friends don't think I'm an idiot. So I'm more careful now than I used to be, because this is more of a 'worldly' place than it's been in the past.)

And a considerable amount of past regular posters have expressed similar feelings to me as well, which is why they are no longer regular posters. It is definitely better than it was, but there were some points where almost any positive post would get a significant amount of negative responses. And of course (as all of us has said) everyone is welcome to their opinion, but the discouraging of fans on a fan forum is an issue.

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I'm not quite sure how to write all of this, because I feel like I'm addressing 3 different posts at once. I don't want to go too far down the rabbit hole of you and me trying to clarify the meaning behind Miguel's words, because I don't think that is fair to any of us. But there are a few points I want to address:

I'm not exactly sure why Mig decided to go with the 'it will be more helpful if you FIGURE OUT what I'm upset about' approach - but Kermit has done a spectacular job of laying out the issue here.

Yes, Kermit's post is fantastic. I would just add that he has done a great job of laying out one of the issues. I feel like in the effort to clarify some of Mig's points, we are sweeping some of the more problematic comments under the rug.

Nobody is saying you shouldn't express doubts or frustrations or unhappiness with the game.

To me, it appears that Mig is saying exactly that.

A forum of intelligent 'self-aware' posts that can easily flip between the fun had in the game along with the occasional wonder about the potential 9 years of expansion, of how tough it is to make a game this broad in scope and appeal, about how they hit the mark more often than not, about how 90% of the time user frustration is *user created*, about peering past the sociological aspects of game playing and being content that things are working out just fine? Well, that would be the dream, no? For me at least.

He is not only telling us what we should be discussing, but what we should not be discussing. AND he his telling us that 90% of "our" problems with the game are our own fault or imagining. He may or may not be right about that, but he is leaving no room for discussion. Isn't that the very problem we're trying to address?

What is important is that IF SOMEONE IS HAPPY WITH THE GAME THEY'RE PLAYING, THEY SHOULDN'T BE MADE TO FEEL BAD ABOUT IT.*

Absolutely agree. Making someone feel bad because they like something is a crappy thing to do, and we should all do our best to avoid it. This responsibility flows both ways though. People who have suggestions or criticisms shouldn't be made to feel like jerks because we don't love every single aspect of the game. 99% of the time, I feel like things around here go just fine. But every now and then, things get a bit heated, posts get carried away or misunderstood, etc. We do pretty well, but there is certainly room for improvement.

Beyond that, some personal responsibility (maybe confidence is the better word?) needs to be at work here as well. All my life, people have been telling me that Legend is a terrible movie. But I love it anyway, and I'm not remotely shy or afraid to say so. My friends have trying to convince me for years that "everyone loves Final Fantasy 7!". They tell me I'm crazy because I don't like it. How much do I let that effect me? Not at all. Just last week, Cody told me he "wasn't so sure about me anymore" because I love Journey so much (the PS4 game, and also the band). I told him I couldn't hear him over the sound of my Hawkmoon, then went and played more Journey and had a great time.

I'm not saying any of this to negate your point. Just trying to say that we should maybe try to be careful about making people feel bad for their opinions, while also having a bit more confidence on our own :)

So when Mig says there's a virus, and that most of us are responsible for propagating it - he's not saying you shouldn't be unhappy with parts of the game, and he's certainly not saying you shouldn't EXPRESS your unhappiness about parts of the game.

As I mentioned above, his words don't seem to mesh with yours, at least as I understand them.

He's saying you should think about the underlying assumptions you make when you are discussing a topic - do you think we all agree that the story is horribly broken? You shouldn't think that. Because it's not true. (You are ABSOLUTELY WELCOME to think the story is horribly broken - but you should leave room in your discussion for people who disagree with you, and you should treat people who SUGGEST that they disagree with you with the respect that you'd like YOUR ideas to be treated with.)

My post here contains no such assumptions. I stated my own feelings, and asked to hear from everyone else. Yet Miguel went out of his way to call me out on it:

but posts like CL's below shows there's still so much work to be done.

Why? What exactly did I do that is so poisonous to this forum? You've already addressed that thread more directly, and for the sake of clarity I'll write another post responding to that one. But without digging in to your thoughts on my post, I feel like Miguel's choice to single it, and me, out is unwarranted.

*Exception to this rule: If you think Cauldron is a good map, you're a bad person.

I might be starting to agree with you, here :)

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This is really tough to talk about when you take all comments as though they're directed specifically at you and something you've done, rather than as generalzations about the current state of the forum.

He's saying you should think about the underlying assumptions you make when you are discussing a topic - do you think we all agree that the story is horribly broken? You shouldn't think that. Because it's not true. (You are ABSOLUTELY WELCOME to think the story is horribly broken - but you should leave room in your discussion for people who disagree with you, and you should treat people who SUGGEST that they disagree with you with the respect that you'd like YOUR ideas to be treated with.)

My post here contains no such assumptions. I stated my own feelings, and asked to hear from everyone else. Yet Miguel went out of his way to call me out on it:

In the quote you grabbed, my 'you' was not 'CruelLEGACEY', but 'general forumgoer' - I didn't mean, or want, to suggest that YOU were specifically at fault here, I was trying to explain the problem in general. The only time I pointed out an instance that was SPECIFICALLY about you was in that other post, the one you're planning to address separately.

This is starting to feel like the whole 'not all men' argument. When I point out a problem, if it doesn't apply to you, it doesn't apply to you. You are under no obligation to defend yourself against it, and saying "this generalization isn't true because it doesn't apply to me" doesn't really add anything useful to the conversation. We're ALL different, and any generalization is going to be incomplete and inaccurate when applied to specific people, so just pass over the stuff that isn't you.

To suggest, however, that because you didn't make those assumptions in a specific post means that NOBODY has made those assumptions in ANY post is simply wrong. That assumption is made regularly on this forum, and its effect is to inhibit discussion by people who don't feel like the story is worse than Hitler, but don't feel like being jumped on if they say that.

(If you're going to make me go back and point out a dozen instances of people getting jumped on for implying the story is above toilet paper clumping on the evil scale, I can do that - but it won't be this week; I don't have time.)

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This is all getting a bit convoluted, and I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I'm trying to sidestep any responsibility. I did agree with almost everything you said, and I myself stated that I think we can all do better... for the record, I absolutely include myself in that.

Please understand, I am extremely frustrated right now and doing my absolute best to keep a level head. Maybe I'm failing. I was personally singled out by Miguel in several posts, and made to feel pretty crappy about myself as far as my participation here at DBO. You and Kermit both jumped in with wonderful, constructive posts. Taken at face value, I cannot possibly argue with anything either of you said. But please remember where all of this started... with personal attacks. You and Kermit are both doing an excellent job of communicating the larger problem that Miguel has been driving at lately. I'm not discounting that, or saying I'm exempt from it.

I, for the record, feel that the kind of insulting and exclusionary posts that started this mess are just as big a problem.

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(If you're going to make me go back and point out a dozen instances of people getting jumped on for implying the story is above toilet paper clumping on the evil scale, I can do that - but it won't be this week; I don't have time.)

I'm certainly not going to MAKE you, but if you wanted to it would be helpful to me as I have no memory of someone being personally attacked or made to feel like their opinions were invalid because the killed (some part of) the game. But I'd like to be on the lookout for when that's happening because I don't want ANYONE to feel like they can't post share their opinions respectfully here.

N.B. I'm not saying it hasn't happened, I'll assume I missed it, or saw it in a different way, or it didn't stick with me.

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Beyond that, some personal responsibility (maybe confidence is the better word?) needs to be at work here as well. All my life, people have been telling me that Legend is a terrible movie. But I love it anyway, and I'm not remotely shy or afraid to say so. My friends have trying to convince me for years that "everyone loves Final Fantasy 7!". They tell me I'm crazy because I don't like it. How much do I let that effect me? Not at all. Just last week, Cody told me he "wasn't so sure about me anymore" because I love Journey so much (the PS4 game, and also the band). I told him I couldn't hear him over the sound of my Hawkmoon, then went and played more Journey and had a great time.

I hated FF7, but enjoy the ancillary material/games well enough (Advent Chillenz, Dirge of Cerberus, parodies)... But yeah, 7 was a snoozefest when I was nine, and only got worse as I got older (Resident Evil 2 came out around the time FF7 was becoming a big deal around where I live, and so my experience with how awesome games could be had been tainted), the final nail was FF8, which was (and is) amazing.

*Journey Spoilz*
Also, Journey caught me off guard. Totally did not expect running into another player, much less completing the journey with him/her. The trek through the snow as we were both slowly dying, but fighting to stay together anyway without a single word (other than our quieting pings) was something else, and I don't know how that couldn't affect someone in some way unless they are simply horrible cynics.
*End Spoilz*

As for Legend, while I didn't personally like it, I know the feeling. I've watched Battlefield Earth a half dozen times, and nobody believes me when I tell them how great it is, so who knows? I know this one guy who doesn't love critically-acclaimed films that are perfection in nearly every way, but enjoys films that I have outright hated, so it kind of shows you how broad tastes can be, even sometimes seeming to be flat-out wrong.

That said, we shouldn't get our jimmies rustled when someone calls us out by name. Just means that your perspective has impacted them deeper than that of others, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

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I bought some green stuff to delevel and was playing through the Black Garden with him (his first time)

This is why you win.

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Seems like people are still complaining about Mig's "attack" on Cruel, without trying to engage with him. I think we’re taking everything personally, especially those who know and have played with Cruel. That’s natural. In the same way, Mig’s not just a name on a screen for me, either.

I'm done with engaging Mig regarding his attack on Cody & Cruel. He was mean, rude, disrespectful, and childish. He crossed a line IMHO. It was uncalled for; I called him on it, he vanished for a day and never responded (maybe that's why people aren't engaging him). I've said my piece regarding that post and now I'm done.

My other post (specifically the How to Win Friends and Influence People post) was not directed at Mig specifically (although it appears he could benefit from it), it was directed at the group/thread as a whole, at Mig, at those responding to him. I thought the title of the book in regards to this situation was a little funny, and honestly people here could really benefit from it.

Now, I'm sure Mig isn't full of venom, hate, and bile in person, usually people are much nicer in person or over voice chat. I'd be happy to discuss the tone of the forum with him or anyone else as long as they can approach the topic in a level-headed non-aggressive non-hatefull way, we should all treat others with respect.

Cody and his brand of cynicism is the virus Mig speaks of, I think. We’ve all been infected. Yes, Mig shat on Cody’s goodbye post, but Cody’s goodbye post was all self-aggrandizement and shitting on all of us rubes who stay because we fall for Bungie’s “tricks.”

I didn't read Cody's post as condescending toward all of us who are still playing and enjoying the game. Yes, there was some self aggrandizement in it and could have been written a little differently ("Here are the reasons I feel I've betrayed what I stand for in a game: There are addictive elements, the story is lacking" vs. "I predicted the addictive elements, I predicted the story would suck").

Here's how I read it, I read it as someone who's disappointed by his own behavior/choices, someone who realizes they've betrayed their values. Imagine if you will that he's a Mormon in an AA meeting saying "I don't believe in drinking alcohol, and yet I've become addicted to it. I've been justifying my use of it, but this can't go on." That doesn't mean he's passing judgement on others who enjoy imbibing. I dunno, that's just how I took it, but maybe that's because I agree with some of the points he (repetitively) makes.

I understand what Mig’s saying. Here's how it manifests for me: I don't feel like I can let my bungie freak flag fly anymore. I feel shy about it. I feel I must include disclaimers, acknowledge sins, and make sure people understand that I did not just fall off the turnip truck as a gamer. I blame Cody in this local context, but he’s certainly part of a larger problem.

:( And that there is a real shame. Seriously. That statement is why I'm responding to your message. I think anyone who wants should be able to be an unabashed bungie fanboy here. I also think people should be able to point out things they don't like about the game without making everyone else feel bad about liking the game.

In Bungie fandom these days the liturgy is Dinklage sucks, the progression system sucks, the story sucks, exclusives suck, Grimoire should be in the game, Activision is evil, Bungie isn’t Bungie anymore, we deserve a game that does such-and-such, and on and on. You have to dig through all of this to find any joy and wonder at what Bungie has created. [warhog jump blasted]

[great story snipped]

At DBO, the best of places, you see the virus at work in the best of us. (And Cruel, I think Mig has made clear that he considers you one of the best). A thread cataloging “wow” moments in Destiny begins with a hat tip to the liturgy (Destiny is no Halo), and then those of us who were wowed many times during the game begin to doubt ourselves. We apologize, we feel obligated to include caveats.

I love Bungie. They’ve earned it from me. I don’t love another game studio the same way.
[snip]
I’m a fanboy. Call me that, I don’t care. I thought Bungie.Org existed for people like me.

I like Dinklebot! People complain about him, but he really honestly doesn't bother me. I think it's pretty cool to have an "angry elf" helping me through my journey. I feel my ghost has some personality to him, and I like it! I'm not sure what I think about the progression system, I like parts and I don't like parts, I'm torn regarding it. I think the story could have been improved or presented better, the plot could have used some development or twists, but I really *really* like the foundation that has been laid for the overarching story. I'm excited to see what happens in the future! I like my exclusives, I don't know what everyone's complaining about ;-). I absolutely love the Grimoire, I think lots of people are missing out by not reading it. Suggesting that it should have been in the game is probably because people recognize how great it is, but that doesn't mean the game is BAD because it's not in it, just that, perhaps, it could benefit from it being included.

You know what? Halo 2's ending was painful for me, the pop-in textures were disappointing, AotCR/TwoBetrayals was kinda repetitive with those cookie-cutter rooms, and the Microsoft Buyout was absolutely horrible for me, end of the world, and yes, the grunts are kinda silly. I think most people in the HBO community way back then would have agreed with most of those points, but the games were absolutely great, the buy-out ended up bringing about some being pretty amazing things, and there was lots of fanboyism. Maybe we're just remembering the best of the good old days and not the bad. Rose color glasses and all that.

Only 1 of my IRL friends that I have any sort of regular contact with is a big Bungie fan (I'm looking at you Slycrel), a couple others like Halo, and the rest are haters. Maybe I'm just used to hearing criticism, maybe I'm just used to defending the games & developer I love, so maybe my opinion of this forum is biased, I dunno, but overall I think this forum is pretty great, and I think it's terrible that people feel intimidated about proclaiming their love of Destiny. People should NOT have to feel bad about loving everything about the game here. What can we do to change that? Maybe there's too much of a spirit of debate around here, I dunno. I think we can have both critiques & proclamations of love here. So, what needs to change for us to have both, or is it impossible (which many believe is what Mig is saying)? Do we need more posts by forumgoers about amazing things or things they love? A special critique category? Guys, gals, any ideas?

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At DBO, the best of places, you see the virus at work in the best of us. (And Cruel, I think Mig has made clear that he considers you one of the best). A thread cataloging “wow” moments in Destiny begins with a hat tip to the liturgy (Destiny is no Halo), and then those of us who were wowed many times during the game begin to doubt ourselves. We apologize, we feel obligated to include caveats.

I'm pretty sure you realize this, but that's largely on you. You don't have to take the negativity to heart or even read it any more than people who don't care for Destiny or some aspect of it need to keep playing. I'm not saying don't respond or don't read it, I'm saying laying the blame for how you act or even (in large part) how you feel at someone else's feet, when you're an adult (and more adult than most of us at that) is... incorrect. You have control over it, or you should. If you don't like what you see, that's one thing, and if you can't keep it from affecting you without just not reading it, that's understandable, but you don't have to let it change what you say and how you say it.

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Seems like people are still complaining about Mig's "attack" on Cruel, without trying to engage with him.

Kermit, you've done a great job distilling Mig's posts and keeping a level head, but what you said above makes me angry. I've long held that even the best, most thought provoking points are worthless if presented in the wrong way. And to me, Mig presented his points in entirely the wrong way. I don't think a post that played the "can you guess what I think you think I think" game was worth engaging with. I don't think a post where someone admitted they themselves had been intentionally not engaging with a poster whenever he replied to him over the course of the last year (and let's call that what it is, it's an admission of pointless flaming by Mig) deserves to be engaged with. And I don't think it should matter how awful a poster like Cody had acted in the past, it doesn't justify making an awful muck in his topic! And yes, some people have justified it. Someone up aboves said something like "Sure, Mig's post wasn't great, but let's be real, Cody was a total jerk and even his initial post was horribly arrogant and self servicing." What the heck is going on here?!

A bad, toxic, mean spirited post should not be glossed over because it was made in reply to a bad poster. And people shoudn't be looked down on because they did engage with said bad post. And a calm rational discussion about the point burried and hidden beneath a layer of crap should not be happening in this topc.

What should have happened here is that Mig's post should have been condemed, but instead you with your first words condemed those who rightly choose not to engage. Mig's post should not have been acceptable in the least. Once that was made loud and clear maybe we could move on to a separate discussion about this "virus of negativity first" that has gripped our community. Instead, Cruel still feels hurt and nobody is acknowledging that fact, and Mig's actions are being passed over as teasing or as secretly insightful.... :(

Again, I'm glad you and others can be mellow and can find the hidden good, but I'm pretty darn unhappy that it seems to be at the expense of actually taking note of some seriously bad behavior. :/

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Again, I'm glad you and others can be mellow and can find the hidden good, but I'm pretty darn unhappy that it seems to be at the expense of actually taking note of some seriously bad behavior. :/

I can't speak for them, but I know I didn't really speak against it because everything I wanted to say against it had already been said by other people. Actually, a lot of it was more extreme than what I would have said, including your post, and I wish there had been more things addressing that.
Now to read Mig's latest novel....

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I voiced my incredulous reaction and I reached out to Cruel. I think he's a great addition to this forum and didn't deserve the salvo at him.

Like GV said, there's also been a lot of reproach back at Mig. When you literally have an 'F you' post attached to a thread, I have a hard time supporting more punishment on the target, whether they are deserving of it or not. It's better to not get stuck in a loop if we want to make progress.

And it sounds like Mig is processing the reaction he caused. Apologies are starting to come and there has already been a great distillment of the hostility and a greater focus and elaboration on the issues causing the friction. I think that's the right direction. A line allows progress, a circle just gets everybody dizzy. There are acknowledgments of issues here that have irked many people with different opinions since before Destiny was launched and that's promising!

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Are you telling me to...
(•_•) / ( •_•)>⌐■-■ / (⌐■_■)
...get in line?

[image]

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One down! (though you're selfish and egotistical enough that I bet like car15 you'll come back, though for different reasons: crowing how you were right to come back, because Bungie did a/b/c)

(really who are we kidding here, you've said many 'goodbyes' over the year before when you thought the game stunk - but you always leave a little weasel room to come back)

Now to work on the friendly Canadian and few others and this forum could be 'right' for once. For CL, he doesn't have to leave, he would just have to change. *You* have to leave because I see no change coming from within you - you just don't have that humility. Even your 'goodbye' post is full of boasting and penis waving, but posts like CL's below shows there's still so much work to be done. I used the word 'insidious' and I mean it. It's such a subtle, agile virus - this infector of tone and entitlement.

Wow. Just, wow.

It's one thing to be critical of Bungie as a company and the games they've produced, but it's entirely another to level such hate filled personal attacks at people. I do not like posts such as this last one. They make this forum feel very hostile and not a place I like to be. Miguel, I recognize you've been a large part of the *BO community for decades, I remember reading your posts way back in the early 2000's. But lately I've seen some posts by you that have been so full of acrimony that I've been shocked by them. I can understand the attacks that have been leveled at car15. He's been very trollish and hasn't really contributed anything, but I just don't understand the personal attacks at Cody. Yes, he's been quite critical of the game, probably one of the loudest voices decrying some of the flaws of Destiny, but he's also been a very helpful and positively a contributing community member.

Now what the crap is so wrong w/ Cruel? Sure, he's posted some criticisms, but overall he's an upbeat community builder. Gee whiz, I've made one post expressing my frustrations with the perks, does that mean I need to leave or change?

I dunno, to see poison like this, especially from such a veteran of the community, is disappointing to me and ruins the good feel of the DBO community for me.

-- Disappointed DogCow

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I've had similar discussions with Mig before. My understanding is this:

Mig doesn't have to be polite. He leaves that to Kermit and Claude and Levi because he doesn't believe in it. Being polite is useless; the only way to "save" this forum is by killing the disease. He's the hero we deserve - the harsh words and "a slap in the face" to "wake up" this forum before we succumb to the disgusting miscreants who dare to express an opinion that differs from his. He is the saviour (and yes, in topics past I really have got the impression that he feels this way), rescuing us from ourselves.

Mig, I really don't like speaking ill of someone like this, and Kermit sings your praises so you must be an alright guy, but this is ridiculous. You are not a hero. You're not a saviour. You're not preaching improvement, you're preaching hate. Yes, there are voices in this forum that can be negative, or overbearing, or both. Hell, Cody annoys me sometimes too, but you anger me. You act like you don't have to be nice, because you're special. It's okay because you're well-meaning. But a well-meaning asshole is still an asshole.

The funny thing is, for all this talk of an insidious virus corrupting and ruining this forum, I can't think of anyone as caustic, intolerant or toxic as you.

EDIT: Anyone who's played with me will know I'm normally a very upbeat, positive person, so you can see how much this has bothered me. I already regret this post a little but I won't delete it. This is how angry this kind of rudeness makes me. Intolerance is unacceptable to me. Acceptance and compromise is one of our greatest human achievements. Exclusion one of our worst. Yes, I realise that's a little melodramatic - I'm feeling very self-conscious about this whole thing to be honest. But the idea that we need to "change" (indoctrinate?) people or get rid of them altogether in order to have a "good" or "right" forum is vile to me. I apologise if anyone feels like I've been needlessly rude.

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I've had similar discussions with Mig before. My understanding is this:

Mig doesn't have to be polite. He leaves that to Kermit and Claude and Levi because he doesn't believe in it. Being polite is useless; the only way to "save" this forum is by killing the disease. He's the hero we deserve - the harsh words and "a slap in the face" to "wake up" this forum before we succumb to the disgusting miscreants who dare to express an opinion that differs from his. He is the saviour (and yes, in topics past I really have got the impression that he feels this way), rescuing us from ourselves.

The DBO admin is not an oligarchy or something that meets up and passes judgment (or worse, gossip) on community members. We can barely even e-mail each other to get a podcast going let alone create some running commentary on people behind closed doors. We all have different perspectives and experiences with various posters. :)

Maybe this didn't need to be said, but I kept seeing names pop up and I don't want folks to start putting people on teams or tiers or something.

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Sorry, didn't mean to imply that. Those are just the names (I think) Mig mentioned last time it came up.

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Sorry, didn't mean to imply that. Those are just the names (I think) Mig mentioned last time it came up.

Oh, I didn't think you did! It just felt weird reading my name pop up a couple of times and didn't want people to start to think we're actually organized or something. :)

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Sorry, didn't mean to imply that. Those are just the names (I think) Mig mentioned last time it came up.

Oh, I didn't think you did! It just felt weird reading my name pop up a couple of times and didn't want people to start to think we're actually organized or something. :)

YOU'RE an admin?!?

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Sorry, didn't mean to imply that. Those are just the names (I think) Mig mentioned last time it came up.

Oh, I didn't think you did! It just felt weird reading my name pop up a couple of times and didn't want people to start to think we're actually organized or something. :)

YOU'RE an admin?!?

The fact that he hasn't updated the Guidelines in two years didn't give it away? :P
I swear, the news page gets updated more often...

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I swear, the news page gets updated more often...

We have a news page?

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YOU'RE an admin?!?

What!?!

Don't you remember me recruiting you?

All those secret tasks I had you perform to show your worth?

I mean, you did fail in your assassination of Claude... but you got good numbers in everything else.

(Truth: I think I might have locked a post... once? And I'm not even sure on that.)

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I mean, you did fail in your assassination of Claude... but you got good numbers in everything else.

You really wanted me to kill him? We may have to "retest." Contact me by way of the drop-off location.

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I mean, you did fail in your assassination of Claude... but you got good numbers in everything else.

You really wanted me to kill him? We may have to "retest." Contact me by way of the drop-off location.

To become an admin you must replace an admin. I don't see how the "STEP 2: SEDUCE AND POISON CLAUDE" sticky note I left for you at the Dunkin' Donuts drive-through wasn't clear enough.

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Organized? You goons can't even be bothered to put up a front page.

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I've had similar discussions with Mig before. My understanding is this:

Mig doesn't have to be polite. He leaves that to Kermit and Claude and Levi because he doesn't believe in it. Being polite is useless; the only way to "save" this forum is by killing the disease. He's the hero we deserve - the harsh words and "a slap in the face" to "wake up" this forum before we succumb to the disgusting miscreants who dare to express an opinion that differs from his. He is the saviour (and yes, in topics past I really have got the impression that he feels this way), rescuing us from ourselves.

The DBO admin is not an oligarchy or something that meets up and passes judgment (or worse, gossip) on community members. We can barely even e-mail each other to get a podcast going let alone create some running commentary on people behind closed doors. We all have different perspectives and experiences with various posters. :)

Maybe this didn't need to be said, but I kept seeing names pop up and I don't want folks to start putting people on teams or tiers or something.

I mentioned you and Claude because Mig has specifically mentioned you and Claude in the past while justifying the aggressive tone of some of his posts.

"I'm sorry but I will leave it to Claude and Levi to present the 'nice' side of the opposition. The thing is I have seen those poor souls try that approach for the longest time. It has not worked."

So that's where the name drop came from. I feel that some of Miguel's posts have an "us vs them" vibe to them... I don't believe that dynamic actually exists, but Miguel has made points like this several times in the past.

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Now to work on the friendly Canadian and few others and this forum could be 'right' for once. For CL, he doesn't have to leave, he would just have to change. *You* have to leave because I see no change coming from within you - you just don't have that humility. Even your 'goodbye' post is full of boasting and penis waving, but posts like CL's below shows there's still so much work to be done. I used the word 'insidious' and I mean it. It's such a subtle, agile virus - this infector of tone and entitlement.

Can you define what you mean by "right"?

And why someone has to change?

Much work to be done?

When I was referred to this forum it was because I was told that there were great guys that were more than helpful. And until now that has proved to be true. I can honestly say that I have enjoyed playing with everyone, including yourself. Everyone is more than helpful. Sure Cody seemed like the Devils Advocate, but I enjoyed his company. To each their own. This post just makes me feel like you dont want any indifference here. What boring forums would that be if all I got on and saw was no difference in opinion?

This is the first aggressive post I have seen since I have been on the forums. Never thought anyone felt like this on here.

I honestly do not see how you could have any quarrels with Cruel. If there is one thing I can say about him, its that he would NEVER post or say anything of this nature.

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Well, that would be the dream, no?

Of the Orwellian nightmare variety.

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Elitist judgmental prick.

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[image]

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Mig thinks he's ridding the forum of a deadly virus like some kind of video game fan forum vigilante, but all he's doing is shitting on people for merely expressing themselves.

How do you suggest I respond to that?

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or don't respond.

You don't actually have to respond. It's not like if you don't say anything we will actually think you are a virus.

But if you want to respond then a moderate response would be the best response.

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It's not about you. It's Mig. He called me out specifically in his post, so I've got to respond to that.

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so my advice was too late, I just pressed post because it was the first thing that popped into my head.

I think that this stuff has been boiling away in the back of Mig's mind and it all just erupted when Cody posted. Because I think that things have been relatively quiet around here. And it was just like woh!

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or don't respond.

^thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis^

"respond with tact or don't respond"

Everyone getting overheated, be it Cody or Mig or CyberKN or car15 or whoever, would do well to follow this advice... please.
Yes, being impolite (let alone deliberately offensive or getting in people's faces) is a little more honest sometimes, but usually it doesn't help you with people that don't already agree with you, and sometimes even people that agree with you will be driven away by it.

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or don't respond.

^thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis^

"respond with tact or don't respond"

Everyone getting overheated, be it Cody or Mig or CyberKN or car15 or whoever, would do well to follow this advice... please.
Yes, being impolite (let alone deliberately offensive or getting in people's faces) is a little more honest sometimes, but usually it doesn't help you with people that don't already agree with you, and sometimes even people that agree with you will be driven away by it.

First off, I resent being named specifically while being grouped with some of those people.

Second, I already follow this advice. I wrote a response to Claude's post a couple of hours ago, about how it was unreasonable to expect everyone here to cater to English majors when framing their arguments, but then I promptly closed the tab without hitting submit because the guy's probably busy and doesn't actually want to argue all day, and the fact that he's kept this Forum as free and open as it is has garnered my respect.

So there.

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or don't respond.

^thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis^

"respond with tact or don't respond"

Everyone getting overheated, be it Cody or Mig or CyberKN or car15 or whoever, would do well to follow this advice... please.
Yes, being impolite (let alone deliberately offensive or getting in people's faces) is a little more honest sometimes, but usually it doesn't help you with people that don't already agree with you, and sometimes even people that agree with you will be driven away by it.

First off, I resent being named specifically while being grouped with some of those people.

Second, I already follow this advice. I wrote a response to Claude's post a couple of hours ago, about how it was unreasonable to expect everyone here to cater to English majors when framing their arguments, but then I promptly closed the tab without hitting submit because the guy's probably busy and doesn't actually want to argue all day, and the fact that he's kept this Forum as free and open as it is has garnered my respect.

So there.

Heh - that argument's been made before (on HBO!), and I think the people making it (including you) are missing my point. It's not about being an english major - it's about being careful not to accidently exclude swaths of the community by the words you choose. Want to make typos? Go for it. Use bad grammar? Kermit will cringe, but the rest of us will be fine. But start from a point where you're already ASSUMING that the basis for your argument is fact, rather than opinion (not the argument itself, but the UNDERLYING stuff that you're starting with), and often people who'd love to engage think "man, I'd have to spend all this time explaining how I don't buy into what he started with before I can even address the argument in the post - never mind, I'll just go play some Crucible."

I don't want to argue all day - you're right about that. But I also don't want this forum to tear itself apart because of misunderstandings or ill will generated by poorly-considered phrasing. It's worth a little extra time to ensure everyone sticks around. :)

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It's not about being an english major - it's about being careful not to accidently exclude swaths of the community by the words you choose.

This is where I start getting nervous.

There's a difference between common courtesy and being afraid to let your freak flag fly. I agree that we should all be respectful and diverse in our opinions, that we should make room for everyone.

I don't agree that we should always be "careful not to accidentally exclude swaths of the community by the words you choose". Because it's not my responsibility to keep tabs on the perspective of the people posting in a given thread, the forum as a whole, or even in the larger community. I'll try to be a good guy as much as possible. But I may say something that offends someone, or is taken out of context. That's life, especially on the internet.

I'm not saying we should open it all up to whatever, whenever. But I am saying that this is all starting to sound like "we need to be politically correct". And I'm not sure that's going to actually fix anything.

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I don't agree that we should always be "careful not to accidentally exclude swaths of the community by the words you choose". Because it's not my responsibility to keep tabs on the perspective of the people posting in a given thread, the forum as a whole, or even in the larger community. I'll try to be a good guy as much as possible. But I may say something that offends someone, or is taken out of context. That's life, especially on the internet.

I don't think Claude is suggesting that if you post something and it offends someone that you are ALWAYS at fault, I think he's more suggesting that some people don't consider it AT ALL. The biggest complaints I have about people on both sides of any argument are:

1. Many of them never take into account what they are saying, don't even re-read it or think about it after expressing it.
2. Many of them take offense at a single word or phrase in an otherwise totally fine comment.
3. Many of them after seeing that some people react like 2. to a post they made as 1. then instead of realizing "oh that was kind of dickish, I should explain what I meant." they react like 2, starting the process all over again.

You can see it on this forum, reddit, bungie.net, and pretty much any other discussion site anywhere (you can even see it in this very thread, and no I don't want to discuss which ones), and to me is the core of most heated, hurtful arguments on the Internet, and CAN be easily avoided by both sides. Does this mean you have to carefully go through and sanitize every post you make, of course not, that would be insane (and is the core problem behind political correctness), instead it means using an attitude of acceptance instead of an attitude of hostility. The issue is always figuring out if you are someone who needs to adjust your attitude (I have no idea if I do, and I am prideful enough I wouldn't trust anyone telling me if I need to or not).

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I don't agree that we should always be "careful not to accidentally exclude swaths of the community by the words you choose". Because it's not my responsibility to keep tabs on the perspective of the people posting in a given thread, the forum as a whole, or even in the larger community. I'll try to be a good guy as much as possible. But I may say something that offends someone, or is taken out of context. That's life, especially on the internet.

I don't think Claude is suggesting that if you post something and it offends someone that you are ALWAYS at fault, I think he's more suggesting that some people don't consider it AT ALL. The biggest complaints I have about people on both sides of any argument are:

1. Many of them never take into account what they are saying, don't even re-read it or think about it after putting it expressing it.
2. Many of them take offense at a single word or phrase in an otherwise totally fine comment.
3. Many of them after seeing that some people react like 2. to a post they made as 1. then instead of realizing "oh that was kind of dickish, I should explain what I meant." they react like 2, starting the process all over again.

You can see it on this forum, reddit, bungie.net, and pretty much any other discussion site anywhere (you can even see it in this very thread, and no I don't want to discuss which ones), and to me is the core of most heated, hurtful arguments on the Internet, and CAN be easily avoided by both sides. Does this mean you have to carefully go through and sanitize every post you make, of course not, that would be insane (and is the core problem behind political correctness), instead it means using an attitude of acceptance instead of an attitude of hostility. The issue is always figuring out if you are someone who needs to adjust your attitude (I have no idea if I do, and I am prideful enough I wouldn't trust anyone telling me if I need to or not).

I agree with what you've said here, thanks for taking the time to reply. I'm not sure exactly what claude meant, but I'm seeing an undercurrent of this happening here, so I thought I'd bring it to the forefront.

For myself, if someone tells me to adjust my attitude, generally I take a good hard look at things and make sure I take care of it or that I'm not the problem. I think a lot of people do. I think that's what cruel is doing even in this thread. I think the vast majority of the time that's what happens around here.

Ragashingo said above:

What should have happened here is that Mig's post should have been condemed, but instead you with your first words condemed those who rightly choose not to engage. Mig's post should not have been acceptable in the least. Once that was made loud and clear maybe we could move on to a separate discussion about this "virus of negativity first" that has gripped our community.

I think this is entirely accurate. Cody, per usual, stirred the pot and made a controversial post, and added his goodbye to it. Responses were about what I expected up until Mig posted. That was an attack on what he sees as a problem, but mixed with some very personal comments and a very negative tone. People rose up to defend against an attack on a well liked community member. (Note that few defended cody. heh. Generally he's happy to defend himself and probably would want it no other way.) Others rose against that counter-attack to defend the attacker. And so on. Now it's a bit sticky and there's lots of little conversations happening around all of this. In the end, I've been disappointed that the overt personal attacks have been glossed over in favor of the underlying point -- which I think we can all agree should have been brought up as it's own topic rather than as a response to the goodbye post, mixed with negative talk about others on the forum. I'd like to participate in that discussion. But not in this thread. Not like this. And I can't start it like that, ignoring what's been said about a friend, in what I see as an unprovoked attack on him.

And I agree, the worst stuff can totally be avoided. Almost always I think that's good. I also think that it's good to sometimes not avoid the touchy subjects, to be just a little unfiltered, and have an honest discussion. Because, as you said, you shouldn't be on your guard all the time.

I'm not excusing anyone of anything. But I am concerned about how thing are shaking out here. I know I'll be thinking twice before posting anything perceptibly touchy here for a while. And that makes me a little sad.

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It's not about being an english major - it's about being careful not to accidently exclude swaths of the community by the words you choose.

This is where I start getting nervous.

There's a difference between common courtesy and being afraid to let your freak flag fly. I agree that we should all be respectful and diverse in our opinions, that we should make room for everyone.

I don't agree that we should always be "careful not to accidentally exclude swaths of the community by the words you choose". Because it's not my responsibility to keep tabs on the perspective of the people posting in a given thread, the forum as a whole, or even in the larger community. I'll try to be a good guy as much as possible. But I may say something that offends someone, or is taken out of context. That's life, especially on the internet.

I'm not saying we should open it all up to whatever, whenever. But I am saying that this is all starting to sound like "we need to be politically correct". And I'm not sure that's going to actually fix anything.

This totally misses my point - and it's probably my fault.

I'm not even a LITTLE bit asking for political correctness, or that people should work on not offending others. That is so far from what I meant as to be in a different county.

Feel free to offend whoever. Go read some of my old posts on HBO - I had a running thing about eating kittens.

I guess it's really hard to explain what I'm trying to get at. It's about making sure that you don't phrase your arguments in a way that I have to write 10 paragraphs explaining where I START before I get to your actual argument.

"When did you stop beating your wife?"

That's not something anyone here would ever write (at least not on this forum) - but it's an example of how the CHOICE of words (or the way you ask something) dictates how the conversation will go forward, regardless of whether the person you're speaking to agrees with you or not. There is an IMPLICIT, unspoken base of assertions in that statement that (if you disagree with them) you need to spend considerable effort to dispel BEFORE you begin to answer the question.

That's what I meant by trying not to accidentally exclude swaths of the community - there are plenty of people who will look at an argument that comes with implicit assertions they don't agree with, and simply skip over the discussion, EVEN IF THEY WERE INTERESTED IN IT, because getting to the discussion is too difficult.

You can offend anyone you want. I don't give a damn. (Just do it politely, please. ;) )

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Fair enough. Thank you for the clarification. =)

And, FWIW, on those discussions I simply don't participate. I stop reading and move on. I think if I felt I needed to bring the discussion around, that I'd either attempt to do so, or start a new thread in the direction that I wanted to see things done.

I feel bad that it's coming out that people are not posting because they don't feel comfortable, for various reasons, to do so. I wish they would. Because if they stay silent then no change will ever happen. And I too hope that when we all chime in that it's in a positive way.

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or don't respond.

^thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis^

"respond with tact or don't respond"

Everyone getting overheated, be it Cody or Mig or CyberKN or car15 or whoever, would do well to follow this advice... please.
Yes, being impolite (let alone deliberately offensive or getting in people's faces) is a little more honest sometimes, but usually it doesn't help you with people that don't already agree with you, and sometimes even people that agree with you will be driven away by it.

First off, I resent being named specifically while being grouped with some of those people.

Second, I already follow this advice. I wrote a response to Claude's post a couple of hours ago, about how it was unreasonable to expect everyone here to cater to English majors when framing their arguments, but then I promptly closed the tab without hitting submit because the guy's probably busy and doesn't actually want to argue all day, and the fact that he's kept this Forum as free and open as it is has garnered my respect.

So there.

I was referring to this. If you don't see how that's overheated then I don't know what to say. I included you because I wanted to name people from both "sides", and that post stood out regardless.

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apparently the thing that automatically turns general links into forum-specific links doesn't like when you paste one when you're actually viewing a thread as a thread

http://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?mode=thread&id=81719#p81990
http://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=81990

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Cliche.

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It's been fun playing with you. I hope you'll come back to play the new raids and such.

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Delete your characters.

All of them.

It is the only way to stay serious and quit, because if you start over, you'll feel like shit.

This game is different things to different people, and at the end of the day, if you aren't happy, you need to stop.

This is not bile. This is not me being a jerk, this is serious.

Don't be a pussy.

Delete your characters if you really want to stop.

And if you come back for destiny #2, none of your gear matters for shit anyway.

What have you to lose?

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I agree with your post for the most part. If he isn't ready to delete the characters then he obviously isn't ready to really quit.

That said...

And if you come back for destiny #2, none of your gear matters for shit anyway.

What have you to lose?

This isn't entirely accurate. If he does intend to come back for Destiny 2, he will actually lose a lot if he were to delete the characters.

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WHAT IS GOING ON HERE!!

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What about criticism as a forum topic? We have rampant speculation. Maybe this would be a way to filter out something that some of us find tiresome.

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What about criticism as a forum topic? We have rampant speculation. Maybe this would be a way to filter out something that some of us find tiresome.

I think that's a fantastic idea. Maybe call it "feedback" since that allows room for talk about the stuff we like/want more of as well?

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I definitely like Feedback over Criticism. Constructive criticism should be welcome in any topic while Feedback implies "I want to say something AT Bungie", which definitely might be something worth avoiding from time to time.

I still think the best thing to promote first is searching the forum and see what's been posted, and be mindful of your own post history. Cody Miller's complaints weren't nearly as irksome to some as they were the fifth time he posted them that month. And I've told Cody that before, and I think it applies to all of us. We all have our rants, sometimes about the game, sometimes about the people ranting about the game, but if we can condense our frustrations into cleaner and crisper criticism and not try to broadcast it continually, I believe it will actually be more representative and effective and less disruptive in the long run.

I've also written posts in anger and then just left the page before hitting 'Submit'. That's another great tactic for weeding out your anger from your criticism. You can come back, still feel like you vented something off your conscience, but without spreading it to a medium already full of harsh words and hyperbole.

I am an ardent believer that calm, considerate discussion shines the most, especially when the world and the Internet is so full of noise.

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I am an ardent believer that calm, considerate discussion shines the most, especially when the world and the Internet is so full of noise.

Don't ever apply for a job in Cable news :) Or rather maybe you should. I miss the days of proper news casts with fact and civilized discourse.

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I am an ardent believer that calm, considerate discussion shines the most, especially when the world and the Internet is so full of noise.

Don't ever apply for a job in Cable news :) Or rather maybe you should. I miss the days of proper news casts with fact and civilized discourse.

I'm not sure those days ever happened...

Nope, my journalism major did not last very long once I got familiar with it. Nor did my English/creative writing major when the head of the dept. starting talking about how genre stories were ruining literature... And then there was the 'General Studies-I-Kind-of-Made-Up-My-Own-Major" phase. Then I decided I wanted to make the big monies so I hurried past the business school and joined the art department. A few hundred penis vs swords debates later and BOOM! A BFA and living with my parents again.

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I am an ardent believer that calm, considerate discussion shines the most, especially when the world and the Internet is so full of noise.

Don't ever apply for a job in Cable news :) Or rather maybe you should. I miss the days of proper news casts with fact and civilized discourse.

I'm not sure those days ever happened...

Nope, my journalism major did not last very long once I got familiar with it. Nor did my English/creative writing major when the head of the dept. starting talking about how genre stories were ruining literature... And then there was the 'General Studies-I-Kind-of-Made-Up-My-Own-Major" phase. Then I decided I wanted to make the big monies so I hurried past the business school and joined the art department. A few hundred penis vs swords debates later and BOOM! A BFA and living with my parents again.

Chemical Engineering -> Wildlife Mgmt -> Undeclared -> Car Mechanic -> Electronics Engineering -> Private college Instructor -> STUDENT LOAN DEBT -> parents house :)

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Chemical Engineering -> Wildlife Mgmt -> Undeclared -> Car Mechanic -> Electronics Engineering -> Private college Instructor -> STUDENT LOAN DEBT -> parents house :)

Damn, you beat me!

You know, the first two could have led to a great career in evil-animal-hybrid engineering.

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Chemical Engineering -> Wildlife Mgmt -> Undeclared -> Car Mechanic -> Electronics Engineering -> Private college Instructor -> STUDENT LOAN DEBT -> parents house :)

Damn, you beat me!

You know, the first two could have led to a great career in evil-animal-hybrid engineering.

4 & 5 could also be very beneficial.

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A few hundred penis vs swords debates later and BOOM! A BFA and living with my parents again.

This is either an epic typo or totally on purpose and I'm not sure which is funnier :D

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A few hundred penis vs swords debates later and BOOM! A BFA and living with my parents again.

This is either an epic typo or totally on purpose and I'm not sure which is funnier :D

Did I mention arrows? Those are penises. Weapons, coat hangers, light switches... Pretty much the only thing that doesn't represent a penis in the art world is a penis.

There was also some great classes and professors and insightful lessons, but that's not as funny to mention.

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Did I mention arrows? Those are penises. Weapons, coat hangers, light switches... Pretty much the only thing that doesn't represent a penis in the art world is a penis.

Yeah I've had the same experience with some art professors. I think they may have studied too much late Freud.

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Did I mention arrows? Those are penises. Weapons, coat hangers, light switches... Pretty much the only thing that doesn't represent a penis in the art world is a penis.

Yeah I've had the same experience with some art professors. I think they may have studied too much late Freud.

Sometimes a light switch is just a light switch.

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I was actually in Florence, Italy last week. Some of the lower quality souvenir shops had worse than that.

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Did I mention arrows? Those are penises. Weapons, coat hangers, light switches... Pretty much the only thing that doesn't represent a penis in the art world is a penis.

Yeah I've had the same experience with some art professors. I think they may have studied too much late Freud.

Sometimes a light switch is just a light switch.

Says the dude named iconic banana.

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My highschool art teacher suddenly makes sense! Lol

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It's all dicks. Dicks all the way down. Washington monument, swords, the battle of the bulge, the Louisiana purchase. It was all penises.

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Did I mention arrows? Those are penises. Weapons, coat hangers, light switches... Pretty much the only thing that doesn't represent a penis in the art world is a penis.

you were great in Superbad, btw. :)

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Serves no purpose from my perspective. We have Destiny as a topic. I don't even think we need rampant speculation as a topic. It would add complexity when you're starting to post trying to decide where your topic fits, for the small minority of people who use the categories.

Frankly, related to issues discussed in this thread, it strikes me as a technocratic solution to a cultural problem--a gesture that makes us feel like we've done something and can forget about it now. Heartfelt honest engagement with each other is much more difficult, but I think it's more fruitful too.

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Serves no purpose from my perspective. We have Destiny as a topic. I don't even think we need rampant speculation as a topic. It would add complexity when you're starting to post trying to decide where your topic fits, for the small minority of people who use the categories.

I think this is why it's a good idea. It could add some rethinking to people posting stuff. They may adjust what they say, and it DOES serve a purpose for category users. It's not a solution, and it probably won't help much. I DO think it will help a little bit, and it is probably a very stupid easy addition with no negative I can see (cause I see your extra thinking about subject as good).

You're right about having engagement about this kind of stuff, and it is hard. I don't think I am up to that kind of a task. I just try to ignore what I don't like. May be a bad idea, but it's all I'm good at. I can ignore shit like a pro.

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Serves no purpose from my perspective. We have Destiny as a topic. I don't even think we need rampant speculation as a topic. It would add complexity when you're starting to post trying to decide where your topic fits, for the small minority of people who use the categories.

Frankly, related to issues discussed in this thread, it strikes me as a technocratic solution to a cultural problem--a gesture that makes us feel like we've done something and can forget about it now. Heartfelt honest engagement with each other is much more difficult, but I think it's more fruitful too.

I completely agree that we should all be able to discuss our differences, relate to one another in as friendly a manner as possible, and try to change the tone rather than avoid it. If I may pull from the previous posts (maybe Mig said it?) and use the example of the virus. There comes a time when, at least for a moment, we recognize that we cannot cure the virus. So, for the sake of protecting the population, we may have to quarantine it.

This really isn't the best analogy, but it fits as best as I can describe it. For those of us who have felt that the negativity in some posts has become burdensome, would it not be better to remove it knowing that we cannot correct/change it. This is also why I specifically used "criticism" rather than feedback as the new subject heading. Feedback is too generic IMO (but I can see why it is preferable, glass half full thinking :). Criticism points more directly to things we don't like. I'd much rather need to do without this tag, but seeing as how our discussions have only seemed to exacerbate the disturbance in the forum, this seemed like the next best solution.

Now having said all that, it may be that Cody's absence from the forum may alleviate much of what this thread has boiled into.

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Good show, gentlemen.

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Is that because this reply right here is the 158th on this thread? I had to count manually just to be sure (and if someone tells me it's posted somewhere...)

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Is that because this reply right here is the 158th on this thread? I had to count manually just to be sure (and if someone tells me it's posted somewhere...)

99% of the time I couldn't care less, but every once in a while I care - so maybe I should consider adding it somewhere. :)

(Don't count on this happening any time soon. I added spoiler code stuff - but then realized that actually setting it up so that it can be USED is hard, and put it to one side. Maybe Beorn can do that part. ;) )

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I want you to know, I know EXACTLY how you feel. Your "battered spouse" analogy is perfect. I've been there, EXACTLY there.

You see, I used to play WoW.

Before you say Destiny isn't an MMORPGLMAOZ, it's not about that. It's not at all about that. Allow me to explain.

I played WoW in part because it was an activity to help sustain a long distance relationship (until we moved in together), but also in part because it was an addiction. I was one of three tanks for a 25-man raiding guild, and I would legitimize hours spent farming / gathering / raiding by saying I didn't want to let my fellow guild mates down. A good geared tank required fewer heals, blah blah blah.

But it was just a nasty addiction. I would lust after gear, and I would be sad when it didn't drop, and happy when it did.

World of Warcraft is a shitty game because the gameplay is shitty. It's also a shitty game because Blizzard tweaked weapon and armor balance EVERY WEEK. By the time I stopped, they still couldn't get PvE and PvP balance right, a fundamental flaw design from a company which at the time generated more income than the GNP of many smaller countries.

It's also a shitty game because you NEED gear to evolve. There's no "Stranger's Rifle" in WoW PVP -- if you don't meet gear thresholds, you're useless, and getting it takes time and luck.

It's a brilliant (and successful) franchise because of the carrot-and-the-stick element: you usually get the stick, rarely you get the carrot. Hours spent killing a boss, no drops, etc etc.

Bungie rightfully recognized the power of this carrot/stick paradigm to build Destiny. And I am in the position of having had so many scars from the WoW sticks that I stopped caring by the time I stopped playing.

It wasn't a big revelation or anything, one day, it just occurred to me that I was playing a game I didn't particularly like to chase after pixels.

I felt just like you, like a useless bunch of pixels owned hours a week of my life. I felt used and abused.

Unlike WoW's terrible gameplay, Destiny is fun to me -- it's reminiscent of Halo 3, and I love Halo 3.

I don't play Destiny for the drops, and I'm therefore not invested in the drops. To me, Destiny is like playing Halo 3, but with the chance at rewards. And of course, you get to kill your enemies, kill your friends, and kill your friends' enemies, so the social interaction is, like Halo 3, a big part of the fun factor for me.

If you don't obsess over the carrots, then the sticks can't hurt you.

I hope this can maybe make you rethink the way you look at Destiny.

Cheers,

-n

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DBO Forums

It's Over (Destiny)

Bye

It doesn't have to go on forever...

Let's all see how much time we've wasted!

Don't know where; don't know when.

You'll be back.

You'll be back.

Not if he's been away for long enough.

You're absolutely right.

I'm not sure that Cody will be totally gone from the forum

Oh yeah, for sure.

I'm not sure that Cody will be totally gone from the forum

kbye

Not sure if serious.

Cold turkey?

Cold turkey?

Cold turkey?

Congrats!

Time to take bets on how long until he's back...

It's Over - said the narcissist.

^ love this post.

It's Over - said the narcissist.

Woah... Hold on a sec

Step back a minute. It's just forum hyperbole.

Step back a minute. It's just forum hyperbole.

Holy balls

Doesn't Cruel LIKE playing the game?

For the record: "Yes".

For the record: "Yes".

+1, cruel is always upbeat and fun to play with...

Agree with Sly....I have never had a bad experience with CL

Sometimes people get associated together

Perhaps.

Perhaps.

My version never made sense

Talk about nonsense!

Perhaps.

Just to clarify

Just to clarify

Just to clarify

I CANNOT BELIEVE WHAT I AM READING

I CANNOT BELIEVE WHAT I AM READING

Just to clarify

Just to clarify

Yep, easily done, red faces all round

And so do Speedracer and scarab. CONSPIRACY!

Just to clarify

Just to clarify

TIL about "show postings" button.

Just to clarify as well...

I just have to say . . .

Sometimes people get associated together

Ignore the Post

Ignore the Post

Ignore the Post

Ignore the Post

Whatever his goal, he's achieved the impossible...

Agreed.

Woah... Hold on a sec

Don't Change

Don't Change

Don't F%$# off :)

My theory

Reaping, sowing, chickens, roosting

My theory

Goddammit, this is a great post.

What the bloody hell is going on?

What the bloody hell is going on?

What the bloody hell is going on?

You know what it's called?

Woah... Hold on a sec

I can't tell if Mig is role-playing a super-villan...

Reality check...

I don't think I disagree with anything except the last part.

I don't think I disagree with anything except the last part.

Oh, yeah. Missed that WoW part. You're right.

Oh, yeah. Missed that WoW part. You're right.

Let's split the check...d

Follow up. Really Long Post

Follow up. Really Long Post

Follow up. Really Long Post

Follow up. Really Long Postp

Follow up. Really Long Post

Follow up. Really Long Post

Follow up. Really Long Post

Follow up. Really Long Post