Raid Lairs - I hate inventing a word to describe something (Destiny)

by Kahzgul, Wednesday, November 15, 2017, 19:17 (2566 days ago) @ Ragashingo

Need more info!

Here’s my problem with your posts on this issue so far. You say you need more info, but, if I understand you correctly, you did not watch the stream and are getting the entirety of your info from a short, four paragraph article.

I got my info from the link in the OP. I wasn't aware that the stream actually happened, and thought this was some kind of preview from the news source. Regardless, you broke down exactly what that link said (almost verbatim), and those claims were the very specific things that made me concerned about the dance around which terms to use here, so I felt like it was okay to reply. I am at work and can't watch the whole stream at the moment.

You didn’t ask for people’s impressions of the steam’s contents. You didn’t ask if the article left anything out. You went straight to “Whosamawhatsits” “Gizmojigger” and “Persplunken”.

I will personally go far out of my way to answer any legitimate question you or anyone else has. If you want quotes, I’ll happily get them for you. If you want general impressions, I’ll do my best to provide a fair analysis of what was said. And if you don’t trust me or you hold contempt for me for things I’ve done in the past, well, I know a few others around here were watching the stream and they would also happily answer your questions and provide you with more details than you may have had time to read / watch / listen to on your own.

I'm not asking for you to do any legwork here. Opinions are valid and I trust you.

Here’s my take on these Raid Lairs:

Each Raid Lair will probably offer decent challenges but may also be pretty short, especially later on once the challenges are mastered. From what the Bungie designers said, I would expect something along the lines of two encounters somewhat less challenging than the main three of the full Raid, and a boss fight on par with that of the Raid. I say this because while they mentioned having challenges that were more puzzle based and challenges that were more sandbox based, they also clearly indicated that the Raid Lairs were, at least in part, meant to be for players who did not always have the time to commit to the full Raid each week. They did not, however, say much of anything to indicate that the boss fight would be of reduced difficulty or challenge.

Personally, if each Raid Lair is two decent challenges and a decently complex boss fight then I will be fine with them. If I am correct, then by the spring, we’ll have seven unique Raid-level challenges and three Raid-level final encounters. All in all, I consider that none too shabby from the 1st half year of Destiny 2. And really, if there’s anywhere where Destiny has been consistent so far, it’s been the Raids. Some don’t like this Raid or that Raid as much, but the Raid content has always been good. Hopefully, these Raid Lairs won’t tarnish that legacy.

This all sounds good to me, but I wonder why there's such a dance around the terminology of "Raid Lair" containing "Raid Content" vs. "It's just a smaller Raid than what was in vanilla D2" - that's what concerns me.

Let's please not make personal attacks our modus operandi again. We were doing so well.

I thought long and hard about how to respond to this... I pondered how much you really feel you were being attacked vs how much you think you now have some clever lever to be used against me... I also tried to look at my post in the context of some of our past altercations where I did go to far. My response to you is this:

1. I am entirely comfortable with how I addressed you. We both know you could have stated your concerns about the Raid Lairs with much more tact and much less unnecessary hyperbole. I called you out on that, and I will do so in the future in a similar manner without remorse.

2. For what little it may be worth, even if you really did perceive what I said as a personal attack, that was not my intent. When you actually try, you can make a compelling argument. The recent thread about loot boxes vs addiction comes to mind. I encourage you to reign in the cynicism a little and cut out the hyperbole as much as you can. If you do so, you will find me agreeing with you and supporting your arguments far more often that you might expect.

From my perspective, I don't know why my "behavior" would be "not good." I noticed some legalese-type terminology dancing going on with little substantive explanation of what those terms mean. And this is something Bungie has done in the past. They invent a term, hype it like it's a big deal, and it turns out to just be a double XP weekend. So I'm cautious of their word-dance.

As for my penchant for hyperbole, I will probably never be able to satisfy you in that regard. I like to argue from a place of the most extreme possible example. From what I read in the linked article, what we actually know about raid lairs is they contain more than one puzzle-type challenge (without any example of how complex - is it SIVA raid complex or switches to open the waterfall in the D2 raid simple? Dunno), and a (singular) boss fight. We don't know if it's always the same boss every week or rotating bosses like PoE or what. We also know that the Raid Lair is smaller than the D2 Raid we already have. That's almost a meaningless statement that only tells us it's not as big or bigger, but it could be completely miniscule because they gave us no comparison on the other side. Again, normally I would not be suspicious here, but Bungie's history of overhyping made-up terms makes me so.

I'm getting a bit off topic. If I can make a statement, however absurd, that fits within the logic of the facts I'm presented with, I find that to be a very accurate way of illustrating my concern. So I apologize that this technique doesn't land for you, and I will certainly still use it in the future.

Bungie, by calling these things Raid Lairs, has invented a term and given us next to nothing to associate that term with. It's what leads people to say "It'll be THIS, It'll be THAT" when really no one knows, and it would be super easy for Bungie to squash those rumors, but they know people are prone to confirmation bias and that will likely lead to higher sales if they just let the rumors run wild.