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"My Vault" prevents playing Destiny (Criticism)

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Tuesday, January 11, 2022, 12:15 (209 days ago)

Worst of all, this isn't as much of pure hyperbole as it should be.

I've been really feeling the title here as of late. It really is starting to feel that I've just about reached a critical mass in ever the Tetris style of "Game Over". Somehow in these last few years, and particularly in just about the whole of Beyond Light, I've managed to keep kicking the can and keep playing. Somehow I've managed to keep playing despite the continual (and obnoxious) requirement to open a 3rd party UI/spreadsheet where-in I've contrasted and compared what I've earned/rng'd to what I've already gained (which I should be able to do in game en masse). This is something I've pretty much needed to do at least once every reset cycle, but can be often more depending on playtime and activity type of that cycle.

Then the 30th Anniversary Content Update dropped, and man oh man is it feeling like a Bungie coup d'état against whatever space I was managing to keep. A "Return of the Sith" against my recent posts here about different sites that aim to help thin the herd, as Bungie does nothing (and says nothing) about vault space and its interconnected problems.


Caption: D1 in its 3 years got more updates with its Vault then we have in the... going-on 5 years of D2.

I'm at the point now where weapon wise, it feels like the game wants me to squeeze blood out of a stone, "because loot". I can't even enjoy what I've had drop, as there is always another drop I have to manage, and things get lost or moved around and... oh man. I said I wasn't going to rant until after Witch Queen, and I'm doing my darn-est not to. So instead I'll say there is a part of this player whom is tired of the chase, just let me cook up some builds with all "the loot" that I have.

I have SO MANY amazing rolls and use cases, but it's hard to move things around and really dig in because of this darned loot monkey on my back throwing shit at me, and it's not just blues!

I would like to note, this isn't the first time my vault has affected my play, as I couldn't play Gambit Prime due to the "Set of Armor" requirements required for full playtime effect. Cool idea, but I could never enjoy it as I had no room THEN to hold on to ALL the kit so I could play with the styles and perks!

So how has it come to this point here?

Well, the ones I've really been feeling as of late I've posted here, with the catch being I don't yet have a solution in mind to what Bungie can do about the "Trophy" problem. Something something "Guardian Apartments" something?

For starters, with the light capped at 1100 in " " " "COLLECTIONS" " " " (don't get me started DON'T GET ME STARTED), I'm required to keep exotic weapons at light in my vault. THIS NEEDLESSLY TAKES UP Space in the VAULT! At my current count in vault, it's 38 slots. 38! It's bad enough that I have to hold on to Armor Exotics for their Stat rolls (96 slots at current count in vault), as well as the two exotic weapons with RNG, but the need to keep Static Exotic Weapons as well just for the sake of a power rating is really kick'n my Vaults butt. I don't even care about the hur-big numbers that are attached to some of them at this point, as DANG it... I need space so that I can just DO things.

On that note, Raid Armor.

It has a lot of the same issues as Gambit Prime (GP) armor does, with exceptions. The exception to be noted is, unlike GP armor, you don't need the full kit. This is very helpful, further booned by the selective mod system. After that, much like GP armor, you need to have kept your kit so that you can use the perks in the exact raid. That's (right now anyway) potentially 4 different raid sets per class. Oh look at that, kinda like Gambit Prime.

As a result, this effects what character I play with in raids, as I recently recalled one week ago playing Garden with my Hunter. I've only been playing raids with my Main (Warlock) as it makes the most sense between a playtime and slot stance to get that raid gear. And that sucks, as I had fun playing with my Hunter, but I had to shard that kit. I don't have room. I can't have room. I have all these considerations... slots and mods which ebbs into elemental affinity, and then! That doesn't even count what ever stat roll. It's just... bleh. I just want to play dang it. Make it so that if I transmogrify to raid gear, it becomes that raid gear. It gains that slot. Probably a bigger ask then I presently fathom, but hey! Got any better ideas?!

But the big thing... THE BIG reason I think I have come to this point here is... despite all the stats, I can never get a feel for every drop. Think about this folks, do you test EVERY roll you get? Speaking for myself, I've been forced to roll the dice on stat odds alone, but those odds are "will this feel good to play with" mixed with "what does this perk (3&4) combination bring to the play". Statically, I have some great weapons thus the spread sheet is king... and I'm just. It's not fun. The PLAY is lost in all this... noise.

It's not fun. I've been doing this loop for over a year, and I'm feeling just done with it.

I've tried to offset this with tests in the wilds of the Cosmodrome or (even wilder) PvP, but there is so much stuff, too much stuff, and I just... I just can't. It's at times like I'm not even playing, just continually testing things I might not even use so I can have slots open to get more stuff I might not even use, or even rarer, might use. Ooooh... did you feel that? Déjà vu. I think I might have said something similar to this before.

All in all, there is always more, and I'm not all about that. Destiny shouldn't be either, this... heh, "loot game". If the rumors are true and Witch Queen is as much of a mega content drop as a whole new year/expansion is to be anyway, then... man oh man. I just... I don't know. Coup d'état meet diabolical coup de mâitre.

TL;DR Bungie; if you're not going to aggressively expand the vault space, then at least condense it so that what space which is allotted isn't needlessly filled up. There has GOT to be something y'all can do before Witch Queen to help with this. Y'all got so much on your plate, and there is all these moveing parts, and I'm sorry, but Gosh Darn IT, it really feels like you've been kicking this can too. Someone please please please push some QoL stuff to the top! WE DON'T with in reason NEED NEW CONTENT! (You understand yes? I hope you do.) WE NEED Organizational and Space based QoL Updates! We are...

... away of from Witch Queen, and I don't know what can be done in that time, but something needs be done. This sucks.

Even just the ability to infuse things with out it needing to be on your characters inventory would be a big deal. Sometimes the shuffling around kit is just as bad as the endless loot clogging the pipes in the first place. If I could infuse stuff straight from my postmaster, boy would that help things.

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"My Vault" prevents playing Destiny

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, January 11, 2022, 12:40 (209 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

I won’t deny that this is a major problem and annoyance, but this is a bit on you (and all collectors). Just delete shit. I promise, it will be okay. You won’t miss having a slightly better roll on a gun. They’re more similar than they are different. Keep a few to try, of course, but if your vault is crammed full of shit that you don’t use but might theoretically be better, just delete it. You won’t miss it.

I can not imagine playing this game and feeling like I need to keep 500 spare items sitting around.

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"My Vault" prevents playing Destiny

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Tuesday, January 11, 2022, 13:20 (208 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I won’t deny that this is a major problem and annoyance, but this is a bit on you (and all collectors). Just delete shit. I promise, it will be okay. You won’t miss having a slightly better roll on a gun. They’re more similar than they are different. Keep a few to try, of course, but if your vault is crammed full of shit that you don’t use but might theoretically be better, just delete it. You won’t miss it.

I can not imagine playing this game and feeling like I need to keep 500 spare items sitting around.

Feel like you missed one of the more subtle points here, which I shall make more blunt: shit hydras. They're like house hippos, but far less cuddly. And this game is all about that shit hydra. You delete one shit, two takes it's place curtsy of the "darned loot monkey on my back throwing shit at me".

...and by the way WTF you think I've been doin'? eh? EH! Don't you think if it was a simple for me as "Just delete shit" I'd be making this post? If I delete everything, then the the WHOLE builds thing is moot! I keep some of this shit, because I want to make builds and have fun with the use cases inherent with all the different offerings the game allows. BUT THE GAME WON'T LET ME! GAAA!

The issue I'm trying to outline is simply more involved then suggested.

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"My Vault" prevents playing Destiny

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, January 11, 2022, 14:37 (208 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

Like I said, I get it, it’s an issue Bungie should address somehow. But I delete shit as it comes in. Loading times between activities are for just deleting everything that dropped from the previous activity. If you stay on top of it, it doesn’t really become an issue. It takes five seconds to look an item to decide it’s trash. Have I deleted tons of probable god rolls? Probably, but who cares? I’ve never performed any noticeably worse because my gun didn’t have the exact ideal perks.

I’m not sure this is something Bungie can realistically address. More vault space isn’t the answer, that’s just more garbage to collect. Not dropping so many fucking blues is a good start, and getting rid of Power would be great for not needing infusion fodder all the damn time. But short of that, what’s the answer? I can’t think of a loot game that doesn’t have this problem.

"My Vault" prevents playing Destiny

by EffortlessFury @, Tuesday, January 11, 2022, 14:43 (208 days ago) @ cheapLEY

It takes five seconds to look an item to decide it’s trash.

Not for every player. I never had a sense for what was good or bad in all my time playing D1 and D2 because I never had a chance to understand what made weapons or armor good or bad. If you don't play enough to have time to dive into it a certain amount to understand everything properly, it's opaque as hell. As a result, all of my armor and weapons always felt a bit clunky. The closest I ever got to feeling like things were fun and a smooth experience that clicked for me was in Rise of Iron, when I found a gun I really enjoyed (The Unbent Tree) and part of that was because it was a curated roll.

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^This

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, January 12, 2022, 08:55 (208 days ago) @ EffortlessFury

It takes five seconds to look an item to decide it’s trash.

Not for every player. I never had a sense for what was good or bad in all my time playing D1 and D2 because I never had a chance to understand what made weapons or armor good or bad. If you don't play enough to have time to dive into it a certain amount to understand everything properly, it's opaque as hell. As a result, all of my armor and weapons always felt a bit clunky. The closest I ever got to feeling like things were fun and a smooth experience that clicked for me was in Rise of Iron, when I found a gun I really enjoyed (The Unbent Tree) and part of that was because it was a curated roll.

I've never been that confident in my judgment.

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"My Vault" prevents playing Destiny

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Tuesday, January 11, 2022, 18:12 (208 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Like I said, I get it, it’s an issue Bungie should address somehow. But I delete shit as it comes in. Loading times between activities are for just deleting everything that dropped from the previous activity. If you stay on top of it, it doesn’t really become an issue. It takes five seconds to look an item to decide it’s trash. Have I deleted tons of probable god rolls? Probably, but who cares? I’ve never performed any noticeably worse because my gun didn’t have the exact ideal perks.

You may be getting it, but based on the response and (I'm guessing) per how you play Destiny, I'm not sure if you are. You're right, but you're missing the mark. The glance and shard isn't an issue, should one have played the game enough to know what makes a roll special. (I gotchu EffortlessFury ;D)

The first glance is simple. Yay or nay. But if it's yay, well as any coder knows (I presume), that's when the options open up. This is where "stay[ing] on top of it" gets cumbersome. Example time! (And yes, this is real.)

A Solar Empty Vessel Grenade Launcher drops with the ability to blind, detect through walls (and boost stats as a result), and heal from kills with a reload masterwork. (Blinding Grenades, Threat Detector, Unrelenting). Pretty good right? Use case wise it's a fair roll. This roll has character. But I've got three other rolls; Impact Damage, Rapid Kill Reload Speed, Multikill Damage Boost. Impact Damage, Quick Draw, Boss Damage Boost. Proximity, Shield Match Free Ammo, Shield Match Kinetic Damage Boost.

Do I want to swap one of these? Which one of these do I shard? They're all solid kit with their own character! Do I already have something that can fulfill the needs these tools of destruction can fulfill? And of course I've not even touched the PvE and PvP distinction. That's just one weapon! On all three of my characters right now I've got 8 or 9 weapons in each waiting in standby as their rolls are interesting. They have already passed the first test.

I got a Retraced Path Legendary Trace Rifle with the new perk Golden Tricorn, and I want to play with it! Don't know if I'll keep it, but I want to at least play with it! Only... I have no room to bring it over to play with it and need to shard something just so I can figure out if this new thing is any good! It's silly!

I got a BxR-55 Battler with Elemental Capacitor and Snapshot. A Bottom Dollar with Opening Shot, Quick Draw, Tactical Mag, Small-bore and a Range masterwork. That's really solid, but I need to compare that too. It all takes time out of playing Destiny.

If you read all of that cheapLEY, well then I apologize. No doubt half way through (if even that) you were espousing something along the lines of "well fuck that, why even care, ect, ect". You're not here to make builds and all the dreck, you here to kick ass and chew gum, and you're all out of ass. And hey, I even envy it, as this was pretty much how I played Destiny One.

My enjoyment, how I get my fun out of this game has expanded and evolved, and unfortunately Bungie doesn't care. But I'm making this post anyway, in case I'm wrong.


I’m not sure this is something Bungie can realistically address. More vault space isn’t the answer, that’s just more garbage to collect. Not dropping so many fucking blues is a good start, and getting rid of Power would be great for not needing infusion fodder all the damn time. But short of that, what’s the answer? I can’t think of a loot game that doesn’t have this problem.

So we should all lay down and die if this is an issue in every game? The fuck kind of talk is this?

More vault space is not the only answer. UI and Designers could have a field day if they were put to task to "Quality of Life" this stuff. I'd do it myself but... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. One man "with pants on his head" vs a whole AAA game studio. Who wins?

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"My Vault" prevents playing Destiny

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, January 11, 2022, 21:27 (208 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

If you read all of that cheapLEY, well then I apologize. No doubt half way through (if even that) you were espousing something along the lines of "well fuck that, why even care, ect, ect". You're not here to make builds and all the dreck, you here to kick ass and chew gum, and you're all out of ass. And hey, I even envy it, as this was pretty much how I played Destiny One.

You’re not totally wrong there. I long ago decided I don’t care enough to parse rolls like that. I keep one, or maybe two versions of any given weapon. Every time I get a new roll of a gun I like, I ask myself if I like that new one more, and I pick one or the other. I’m not keeping multiple versions of a gun for different circumstances. The game just doesn’t allow for it in a way that won’t leave me wanting to take 500 Aspirin at once. I like making the shooty pew pew, not theory-crafting for every conceivable situation I might find myself in.

And maybe we’re arguing the same point here—if that shit was 500% easier to parse and deal with, maybe I’d care more.

As a side note, your given example already lost me it. It’s a grenade launcher that’s not Salvager’s Salvo, so who cares? It goes straight in the trash. (:

So we should all lay down and die if this is an issue in every game? The fuck kind of talk is this?

That’s not at all what I mean, but I just don’t think there’s much chance of Bungie solving your issue.

Destiny’s entire UI is a fucking usability travesty. It’s total dogshit. I have exactly zero faith they could figure out any sort of tool set that would be more than barely useable for dealing with sorting gear in the vault on making value comparisons. I have even less faith it would be worth the time and effort, given all the external tools you’ve already linked for dealing with these issues. That’s a real shitty answer, I know, because it’s absolutely something they should have considered ages ago, and it’s something they should figure out. But they already got multiple people to fix their shit for them for free, so I don’t expect them to bother.

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"My Vault" prevents playing Destiny

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, January 12, 2022, 08:13 (208 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Destiny’s entire UI is a fucking usability travesty. It’s total dogshit. I have exactly zero faith they could figure out any sort of tool set that would be more than barely useable for dealing with sorting gear in the vault on making value comparisons. I have even less faith it would be worth the time and effort, given all the external tools you’ve already linked for dealing with these issues. That’s a real shitty answer, I know, because it’s absolutely something they should have considered ages ago, and it’s something they should figure out. But they already got multiple people to fix their shit for them for free, so I don’t expect them to bother.

That all sounded more aggressive than I intended. Know that I’m not trying to tell you that you’re wrong or dumb for wanting Bungie to address this. My point is only: would you want to use a gear sorting and comparison tool designed by the folks that thought the Destiny UI was a good design to begin with? It seems like a lost cause to me.

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Destiny UI and stuff

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Wednesday, January 12, 2022, 16:42 (207 days ago) @ cheapLEY

That’s not at all what I mean, but I just don’t think there’s much chance of Bungie solving your issue.

Destiny’s entire UI is a fucking usability travesty. It’s total dogshit. I have exactly zero faith they could figure out any sort of tool set that would be more than barely useable for dealing with sorting gear in the vault on making value comparisons. I have even less faith it would be worth the time and effort, given all the external tools you’ve already linked for dealing with these issues. That’s a real shitty answer, I know, because it’s absolutely something they should have considered ages ago, and it’s something they should figure out. But they already got multiple people to fix their shit for them for free, so I don’t expect them to bother.


That all sounded more aggressive than I intended. Know that I’m not trying to tell you that you’re wrong or dumb for wanting Bungie to address this. My point is only: would you want to use a gear sorting and comparison tool designed by the folks that thought the Destiny UI was a good design to begin with? It seems like a lost cause to me.

That's a rather heavy handed take, even with your amended note. By and large I concur with Kerm, for the UI overall. Especially when compared to OTHER MMOs, which tend to have UI that eats up LARGE amounts of screen real estate. For the sake of the opening you've provided though, the only real nitpicks I have in the overall UI that I can recall right now is the PvP death screen and the PvE details screen.

PvP death screen shows just a gun name in a -now long- age of random rolls. Was the two tap because of the Gun Type or Multi Kill Clip X3? The game sure isn't going to tell ya, and that's rather dumb. Meanwhile, in the PvE Details screen, the whole thing is basically redundant space. It's shows how many steps are in the quest, but switching to any page past the current step gives "This quest step has not yet been revealed". Dumb. You know what happens next? I DuckDuckGo it, and POOF! Now I know all the Quest steps. They used up all this screen space and... and it's silly. Some one worked really hard on this make it look nice, but the whole purpose in its use just feels kind of redundant and poorly planned out. This impression supports some of what you ask... but.. well... switching back to the topic at hand.

As Kermit said "they could improve things in regards to the vault space and managing gear". Yet, to respond to "I just don’t think there’s much chance of Bungie solving your issue"... I know. Y'all want to know what the current name of my ever pending after-Witch-Queen rant is? No!? ...oh... WELL HERE IT IS ANYWAY! It's called "The Curse of D.I.M". I know. I know I know I know, I see it, I get it. One does not need to be a "never-enough-time" Game Dev to understand.

To answer your question...

...would you want to use a gear sorting and comparison tool designed by the folks that thought the Destiny UI was a good design to begin with?...

If their dumb UI helps the player-base to get to actually playing Destiny, instead of working to play Destiny, then yes. Whole hardly. With out delay. Because if they DID screw the pooch, OH, THE FAN BASE WOULD TELL! A new coat of UI is always at least a little divisive, but the input generated should make things even better. (Which by the way... D.I.M prevents!) Come on Bungo, let's keep this years momentum going!

Repeating Myself here again, I think this is hitting consensus, if you say nothing it only reaffirms that nothing shall be done. Over on reddit, this is a topic that seems to pop up at least once a week, like a dripping faucet. This is definitely something on folks minds, but it isn't being expressed enough. Good enough is apparently the best some folks care about, which I can't hit on too hard as life can really sand one down. I get it, but it's not right, and we as fans should hold Bungie to that higher standard. Someday I'd like to be able to do it in person, be it a job or "super specialized ninja invite", but until then...

[image]

I GET TO REDUNDANTLY ANNOY YOU ALL WITH MY RAMBLINGS! HAZZA! ;D

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"My Vault" prevents playing Destiny

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, January 12, 2022, 09:03 (208 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Destiny’s entire UI is a fucking usability travesty. It’s total dogshit.

Disagree, but maybe you're just talking about the vault implementation (even though you said "entire").

D2's interface has gone downhill since Candland left (shoutout for returning to having the tower appear below the default cursor position, but boo hiss for standardizing on the PC settings interface across platforms). That said, it's still superior to many other games and shares a lot of the traits that made D1's interface award winning.

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"My Vault" prevents playing Destiny

by squidnh3, Wednesday, January 12, 2022, 09:45 (208 days ago) @ Kermit

Disagree, but maybe you're just talking about the vault implementation (even though you said "entire").

I can't say I play many other games, but compared to Fortnite and Halo: Infinite (this one is especially embarrassing given the history of excellent UI in the Bungie Halo games), D2 is so much better. I'm possibly biased due to familiarity.

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"My Vault" prevents playing Destiny

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, January 12, 2022, 09:55 (208 days ago) @ Kermit
edited by cheapLEY, Wednesday, January 12, 2022, 10:00

I mean all of it. It’s striking and pretty, but actually managing anything just plain sucks. You know what works well for moving through menus? The D pad. Cursor driven menus on controllers are bad, period. I’ve literally never seen a good one, and now just about every game does it and it always sucks. I never understood how Destiny’s menus won any awards other than the “Who the hell thought this was a good idea?!” award.

That’s not to say they don’t get a lot right. The Director is mostly good, and Orbit screen with your fireteam members is great in a way I don’t appreciate enough until I play other games. Figuring out who’s actually in my party in Halo Infinite is a nightmare. Being able to play with the menus while loading into an activity in Destiny should be the standard at this point.

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"My Vault" prevents playing Destiny

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, January 12, 2022, 11:03 (208 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I mean all of it. It’s striking and pretty, but actually managing anything just plain sucks. You know what works well for moving through menus? The D pad. Cursor driven menus on controllers are bad, period.

Ugh. Strongly disagree. First of all, Destiny doesn't really have any menus except on the settings pane, which I've already criticized. Beyond that, this guy does a good job describing the benefit of their approach in the first 90 seconds of this video:

I agree that they could improve things in regards to the vault space and managing gear. The existence of things like DIM prove that (and also make it less likely Bungie will prioritize such improvements), but the interface isn't "total dogshit" IMHO, and is better than most games.

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"My Vault" prevents playing Destiny

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, January 12, 2022, 16:00 (207 days ago) @ Kermit

I mean all of it. It’s striking and pretty, but actually managing anything just plain sucks. You know what works well for moving through menus? The D pad. Cursor driven menus on controllers are bad, period.


Ugh. Strongly disagree. First of all, Destiny doesn't really have any menus except on the settings pane, which I've already criticized. Beyond that, this guy does a good job describing the benefit of their approach in the first 90 seconds of this video:

You’re being pedantic. Every screen in the UI of Destiny is a menu. The gear screen, the inventory, the Director. Those are all menus.

There’s no accounting for taste, but the cursor is bad. It feels bad, it’s slow, it just sucks.

I agree that they could improve things in regards to the vault space and managing gear. The existence of things like DIM prove that (and also make it less likely Bungie will prioritize such improvements), but the interface isn't "total dogshit" IMHO, and is better than most games.

Total dogshit is maybe a bit hyperbolic, but only just barely. Using a cursor with a controller means there isn’t much they could to make it actually good because the interaction method fundamentally sucks.

This isn’t an argument really worth having, and I realize I’m the guy that just hangs around and shits on Destiny, so I’ll stop
after reiterating my point. Destiny’s menus are inherently broken, and just the thought of trying to do DIM-like organization within that system makes me shudder. It would be an exercise in frustration and I can see why they haven’t bothered.

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I read this and I just... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Wednesday, January 12, 2022, 16:44 (207 days ago) @ cheapLEY

- No text -

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there is a lot of subjectivity involved

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Thursday, January 13, 2022, 13:49 (206 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

I'm not a professional, but I'm not an amateur either. I've been helping UI designers for 20 years. I don't have a degree in it, but I've watched enough usability tests and written several, so I've learned that no UI is perfect and somebody somewhere will really hate it, and you have to assess feedback in aggregate. I'm sure Bungie tested the hell out of the original UI. This stuff is way harder than it looks, and no matter how good you think it is, something will crop up in testing that will surprise you. For the record, I was put off by Destiny's UI at first. I didn't like the cursor.

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there is a lot of subjectivity involved

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Thursday, January 13, 2022, 14:13 (206 days ago) @ Kermit

I'm not a professional, but I'm not an amateur either. I've been helping UI designers for 20 years. I don't have a degree in it, but I've watched enough usability tests and written several, so I've learned that no UI is perfect and somebody somewhere will really hate it, and you have to assess feedback in aggregate. I'm sure Bungie tested the hell out of the original UI. This stuff is way harder than it looks, and no matter how good you think it is, something will crop up in testing that will surprise you. For the record, I was put off by Destiny's UI at first. I didn't like the cursor.

I say as much in a post above, "a new coat of UI is always at least a little divisive".

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2 Answers

by squidnh3, Tuesday, January 11, 2022, 13:41 (208 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

First answer:
Give up. I see it as unlikely Bungie is going to truly fix this issue, because it never really ends. At this point it will act as a self-imposed sunsetting, where you have to decide whether to keep the new stuff or get rid of the old stuff. You choose, now's the time. This is coming from me, who's been at X99/X00 for the entirety of Destiny - I know it's my choice to be this way, and it's not necessary to have a full vault to experience the game fully.

Second answer:
That being said, it sounds like there's some stuff you could do to gain some breathing room.

For starters, with the light capped at 1100 in " " " "COLLECTIONS" " " " (don't get me started DON'T GET ME STARTED), I'm required to keep exotic weapons at light in my vault. THIS NEEDLESSLY TAKES UP Space in the VAULT! At my current count in vault, it's 38 slots. 38! It's bad enough that I have to hold on to Armor Exotics for their Stat rolls (96 slots at current count in vault), as well as the two exotic weapons with RNG, but the need to keep Static Exotic Weapons as well just for the sake of a power rating is really kick'n my Vaults butt. I don't even care about the hur-big numbers that are attached to some of them at this point, as DANG it... I need space so that I can just DO things.

One option is to keep exotic weapons you use constantly, but if you rarely use them, delete them and keep one "floating" exotic that you can use to infuse. For instance, you have a Cerebus, and pull a Thorn out of collections, infuse the Cerebus into the Thorn. Maybe costly, but it could gain you some more breathing room.

As a result, this effects what character I play with in raids, as I recently recalled one week ago playing Garden with my Hunter. I've only been playing raids with my Main (Warlock) as it makes the most sense between a playtime and slot stance to get that raid gear. And that sucks, as I had fun playing with my Hunter, but I had to shard that kit. I don't have room. I can't have room. I have all these considerations... slots and mods which ebbs into elemental affinity, and then! That doesn't even count what ever stat roll. It's just... bleh. I just want to play dang it. Make it so that if I transmogrify to raid gear, it becomes that raid gear. It gains that slot. Probably a bigger ask then I presently fathom, but hey! Got any better ideas?!

A full set of Garden armor is good to have for the boss, but it doesn't really matter what the stats are, and make it Void affinity (the mote collector perk). DSC is too easy for the specific raid perks to matter, and you can always rebuy the armor at the end if that changes. Same with VoG. YMMV for Last Wish.

But the big thing... THE BIG reason I think I have come to this point here is... despite all the stats, I can never get a feel for every drop. Think about this folks, do you test EVERY roll you get? Speaking for myself, I've been forced to roll the dice on stat odds alone, but those odds are "will this feel good to play with" mixed with "what does this perk (3&4) combination bring to the play". Statically, I have some great weapons thus the spread sheet is king... and I'm just. It's not fun. The PLAY is lost in all this... noise.

I actually hardly ever test anything, especially PvE rolls. My general rule for PvE is that special gear is fun but not necessary, so those are often the first cuts I make. The exception is things that explode, I keep those things. Testing in Patrol is often very misleading too.

Even just the ability to infuse things with out it needing to be on your characters inventory would be a big deal. Sometimes the shuffling around kit is just as bad as the endless loot clogging the pipes in the first place. If I could infuse stuff straight from my postmaster, boy would that help things.

You use to be able to infuse stuff in the Vault (most/some of the time), but the latest update broke it for me. Seems to be a loading issue.

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6 Answers

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Tuesday, January 11, 2022, 19:11 (208 days ago) @ squidnh3

First answer:
Give up.

[image]

I see it as unlikely Bungie is going to truly fix this issue, because it never really ends. At this point it will act as a self-imposed sunsetting, where you have to decide whether to keep the new stuff or get rid of the old stuff. You choose, now's the time. This is coming from me, who's been at X99/X00 for the entirety of Destiny - I know it's my choice to be this way, and it's not necessary to have a full vault to experience the game fully.

What is it with this defeatist talk! Bah! Bah with this I say! Away with this! This kind of acceptance is part of why we can't have nice things! And I like nice things. (They tend to be shiny.)

Among it all, I certainly agree that it should not be necessary to have a full vault to experience the game fully. It probably isn't. But I want to play with all the toys, and if I find something I like or think I'll like with whatever builds, well I'm keeping it. And no, I'm not buying this defer all responsibility to user nonsense, even if it has proven to be so disgustingly easy to implement. And yes, maybe among Bungie or DBO or whatever, I'll just end up just being yet another old man bitching about the same blasted thing in the same blasted way for 50 flippen' years, but fuck. If it's bullshit, call it out. I mean, it worked for trials at least, why not this?

I know we've both been playing in the same 499 boat for gosh darned forever. But dam it, it's bull shit then, it's bull shit now... that the premier loot game that everyone else is "trying to kill" has these sorts of issues still lingering within. There has been GREAT strides made in Destiny 2 this year. More and more it seems that Bungie ...heh... FLIPPN' FINALLY... has got their shit together, even as the pandemic works to strain those systems as pandemics always do. Can they keep that momentum? It is my hope, and obviously theirs, that Bungie "with their eyes everywhere" will finally be able to make this game as awesome as it always could be. SO I present just a scant sliver of suggestions.

I look forward to you posting in surprise that I was right, yet again. And considering our vaults, you'll be happy to say it! (:P) Aw shit... that sounded like something Cody would say. Eh, fuck it, mulligan! (;P)

Second answer:
That being said, it sounds like there's some stuff you could do to gain some breathing room.

[...I'm required to keep exotic weapons at light in my vault. THIS NEEDLESSLY TAKES UP Space in the VAULT! At my current count in vault, it's 38 slots. 38!...]


One option is to keep exotic weapons you use constantly, but if you rarely use them, delete them and keep one "floating" exotic that you can use to infuse. For instance, you have a Cerebus, and pull a Thorn out of collections, infuse the Cerebus into the Thorn. Maybe costly, but it could gain you some more breathing room.

That is... a solid idea. Thank you.

[...I've only been playing raids with my Main (Warlock) as it makes the most sense between a playtime and slot stance to get that raid gear. And that sucks, as I had fun playing with my Hunter, but I had to shard that kit. I don't have room. ...]


A full set of Garden armor is good to have for the boss, but it doesn't really matter what the stats are, and make it Void affinity (the mote collector perk). DSC is too easy for the specific raid perks to matter, and you can always rebuy the armor at the end if that changes. Same with VoG. YMMV for Last Wish.

I keep the Vog stuff, as the Oracle Mods lets me use less-then-meta rolls against them, but all in all, noted thanks.

But the big thing... THE BIG reason I think I have come to this point here is... despite all the stats, I can never get a feel for every drop. Think about this folks, do you test EVERY roll you get? Speaking for myself, I've been forced to roll the dice on stat odds alone, but those odds are "will this feel good to play with" mixed with "what does this perk (3&4) combination bring to the play". Statically, I have some great weapons thus the spread sheet is king... and I'm just. It's not fun. The PLAY is lost in all this... noise.


I actually hardly ever test anything, especially PvE rolls. My general rule for PvE is that special gear is fun but not necessary, so those are often the first cuts I make. The exception is things that explode, I keep those things. Testing in Patrol is often very misleading too.

Not mentioned, but I do miss the Tribute Hall a.k.a the "Testing Room" we had in the The Leviathan. Of all the things Vaulted, it's something I miss the most. It was very useful. Gun feel is a big deal in weather I enjoy the use of a weapon or not, so unfortunately it's something I have to consider. Not much else to say other then of my approval of your exception.

Even just the ability to infuse things with out it needing to be on your characters inventory would be a big deal. Sometimes the shuffling around kit is just as bad as the endless loot clogging the pipes in the first place. If I could infuse stuff straight from my postmaster, boy would that help things.


You use to be able to infuse stuff in the Vault (most/some of the time), but the latest update broke it for me. Seems to be a loading issue.

Really? Well then I hope they can fix that and add the Postmaster to boot!

"My Vault" prevents playing Destiny

by EffortlessFury @, Tuesday, January 11, 2022, 14:39 (208 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

The less you play, the faster and more aggressively you encounter all of the problems you mentioned. I never had time to play with builds and use even a quarter of my loot to determine what was worth keeping because I was constantly chasing the next thing, which took almost all of my time playing.

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This is very intresting input.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Tuesday, January 11, 2022, 19:45 (208 days ago) @ EffortlessFury

The less you play, the faster and more aggressively you encounter all of the problems you mentioned. I never had time to play with builds and use even a quarter of my loot to determine what was worth keeping because I was constantly chasing the next thing, which took almost all of my time playing.

This is a perspective I do not know, as I'm probably one of the larger-ish power whales in Destiny through the amount of kit and styles of play I have at my disposal, cus' 499/500. Even if I do play less, I'm still pretty locked in due to years of tenure built in the kit at my disposal. That said, I do have questions.

  • What is your goal in playing this game?
  • Is this game only about the chase to you right now?
  • Wouldn't the glut of options that I'm currently having an issue with, be more a good thing for you? I'm thinking about "walk before you run", where you need to know what options exist in the game before you can go and start making builds that complement and balance various strengths and weaknesses.
    • Or is it simply just feeling overwhelmed by the glut of things? (Which is definitely not a new criticism among newer/every-so-often players.)

This is very intresting input.

by EffortlessFury @, Wednesday, January 12, 2022, 15:01 (207 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

The less you play, the faster and more aggressively you encounter all of the problems you mentioned. I never had time to play with builds and use even a quarter of my loot to determine what was worth keeping because I was constantly chasing the next thing, which took almost all of my time playing.


This is a perspective I do not know, as I'm probably one of the larger-ish power whales in Destiny through the amount of kit and styles of play I have at my disposal, cus' 499/500. Even if I do play less, I'm still pretty locked in due to years of tenure built in the kit at my disposal. That said, I do have questions.

  • What is your goal in playing this game?
  • Is this game only about the chase to you right now?
  • Wouldn't the glut of options that I'm currently having an issue with, be more a good thing for you? I'm thinking about "walk before you run", where you need to know what options exist in the game before you can go and start making builds that complement and balance various strengths and weaknesses.
    • Or is it simply just feeling overwhelmed by the glut of things? (Which is definitely not a new criticism among newer/every-so-often players.)

To start, I haven't played since March of 2021 and sadly I ultimately intend never to return. I really appreciated the seasonal story getting much better but I didn't have the energy to keep up with the seasonal events anymore, and the fact that the story is only available during the season and that old narrative is being removed, combined with my gameplay loop and loot struggles...it wasn't worth the effort anymore. I can at least answer in the context of how I felt over my years of playing. For overall context, I was a solo player.

  • My goal in the game was mostly narrative content. I struggled to keep up in part due to a few things. There was an excess of post-expansion activities that often felt grindy/padded, sometimes obscure, and always in conflict with the seasonal narrative and its activities in vying for my time. The Raid content was a lot of fun, at least what I experienced, but I was never able to play much of it; I never found a group of people to play with reliably and with whom I felt comfortable. I only ever finished VoG a few times, Crota's End once, and attempted Leviathan a couple of times but the group I was playing with could never complete it.
  • The chase got in the way of me playing the content I wanted/needed to play and/or experimenting with the loot I was acquiring.
  • I couldn't say if having a glut of options would be beneficial because I never had the chance to utilize the glut of options. It was always overwhelming because I never had the time to experiment. Every. Single. Session started with trying to figure out what to delete from my vault to make room for what I'd acquired last session.
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That's also how I feel.

by narcogen ⌂ @, Andover, Massachusetts, Wednesday, January 26, 2022, 08:10 (194 days ago) @ EffortlessFury


To start, I haven't played since March of 2021 and sadly I ultimately intend never to return. I really appreciated the seasonal story getting much better but I didn't have the energy to keep up with the seasonal events anymore, and the fact that the story is only available during the season and that old narrative is being removed, combined with my gameplay loop and loot struggles...it wasn't worth the effort anymore. I can at least answer in the context of how I felt over my years of playing. For overall context, I was a solo player.

I also feel this way.

I understood that seasons were added because some players wanted content to grind even when there wasn't really any new content (more narrative, novel mechanics, new environments).

Then, it made sense to ask why these activities weren't better integrated into the narrative; so we got voiceovers and lite cutscenes to do this.

So now the story comes out not just in story missions and lore cards, but also in activities locked into season passes, some of which are also time-gated.

Which seems to incentivize either going all in-- base game, DLC, and season passes-- or nothing, because it seems like nobody would really be able to understand what's going on in Witch Queen without either playing several of the preceding seasons (some more relevant than others, I expect) or watching a catchup video.

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That's also how I feel.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, January 26, 2022, 10:13 (194 days ago) @ narcogen

I understood that seasons were added because some players wanted content to grind even when there wasn't really any new content (more narrative, novel mechanics, new environments).

I feel like maybe you could replace the word 'players' with 'streamers' and have a more accurate sentence.

Which seems to incentivize either going all in-- base game, DLC, and season passes-- or nothing, because it seems like nobody would really be able to understand what's going on in Witch Queen without either playing several of the preceding seasons (some more relevant than others, I expect) or watching a catchup video.

It's intentional. This is how free to play is meant to work. When you're in, they want you to stay in, and thus keep paying. Interruptions would set you behind, so it's working as intended. It's not about having an accessible, lasting work of art.

That's also how I feel.

by EffortlessFury @, Wednesday, January 26, 2022, 12:51 (194 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I understood that seasons were added because some players wanted content to grind even when there wasn't really any new content (more narrative, novel mechanics, new environments).


I feel like maybe you could replace the word 'players' with 'streamers' and have a more accurate sentence.

Which seems to incentivize either going all in-- base game, DLC, and season passes-- or nothing, because it seems like nobody would really be able to understand what's going on in Witch Queen without either playing several of the preceding seasons (some more relevant than others, I expect) or watching a catchup video.


It's intentional. This is how free to play is meant to work. When you're in, they want you to stay in, and thus keep paying. Interruptions would set you behind, so it's working as intended. It's not about having an accessible, lasting work of art.

There are better ways to go about it, though. While Genshin Impact does have seasonal events with narrative content, it's supplementary. They have character arcs that give the characters additional depth but never really impact the overarching narrative in a way that you'd be missing anything substantial had you missed the event. Additionally, the seasonal narrative events are very short. You can complete them in a matter of hours, in contrast to Destiny's seasonal events whose narratives require you to grind out parts of the event to progress. (at least IIRC)

You're not forced to keep up with a power grind if you've taken a break from the game. The difficulty scales essentially with how much you've played and nearly always requires you to voluntarily complete a quest to (permanently) increase the difficulty. I've been parked at the last difficulty gate for months because I enjoy playing at the present difficulty given the amount of investment I want to put into building out my characters. None of the content is gated from me at any time, other than the most challenging end game content and the occasional non-narrative seasonal event that's challenge oriented, and even there the only thing I'm missing out on are some bonus rewards I can do without.

There are still flaws, sure, but far more tolerable, and it's easier to stay regularly engaged to avoid dealing with those flaws anyway.

One thing in Destiny I would change...

by EffortlessFury @, Wednesday, January 26, 2022, 13:03 (194 days ago) @ EffortlessFury

Make the current season's Content Light Level be no higher than the player's Light Level cap from the last season. Then, each season's grind is about making the current season's content easier and pre-grinding for the next season's difficulty. I think that'd make seasonal content more tolerable, at least.

One thing in Destiny I would change...

by Claude Errera @, Wednesday, January 26, 2022, 13:46 (193 days ago) @ EffortlessFury

Make the current season's Content Light Level be no higher than the player's Light Level cap from the last season. Then, each season's grind is about making the current season's content easier and pre-grinding for the next season's difficulty. I think that'd make seasonal content more tolerable, at least.

They did that - for one season (this one). They've reverted to their old style as of Witch Queen. I don't know why.

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One thing in Destiny I would change...

by squidnh3, Wednesday, January 26, 2022, 14:05 (193 days ago) @ Claude Errera

They did that - for one season (this one). They've reverted to their old style as of Witch Queen. I don't know why.

Did they at some point say that the small level increase would continue for the seasons, but that they still wanted to do the big jumps for a big expansion? I can't remember if that was actually something I read or something I just made up in my head right now.

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One thing in Destiny I would change...

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, January 26, 2022, 14:08 (193 days ago) @ squidnh3

They did that - for one season (this one). They've reverted to their old style as of Witch Queen. I don't know why.


Did they at some point say that the small level increase would continue for the seasons, but that they still wanted to do the big jumps for a big expansion? I can't remember if that was actually something I read or something I just made up in my head right now.

If it's something you made up in your head, I did the exact same thing because I seem to recall them saying something along those lines. I'd be lying if I said I cared enough to dig through the TWABs to find it, though.

I wish they would do the big jump for the expansion and then nothing for the seasons. The Pinnacle grind is the worst leveling system in any video game I've ever played and it destroys my desire to even boot the game anymore.

One thing in Destiny I would change...

by EffortlessFury @, Wednesday, January 26, 2022, 14:42 (193 days ago) @ Claude Errera

Make the current season's Content Light Level be no higher than the player's Light Level cap from the last season. Then, each season's grind is about making the current season's content easier and pre-grinding for the next season's difficulty. I think that'd make seasonal content more tolerable, at least.


They did that - for one season (this one). They've reverted to their old style as of Witch Queen. I don't know why.

Neat that they tried it! How do you feel it changed the seasonal grind?

Either way, I'm beyond salvaging as a player short of them figuring out how to reinsert all narrative content (which is probably not a technical challenge they're ever going to tackle, understandably). I do hope it continues to improve for the rest of y'all, though. ^_^

That's also how I feel.

by Claude Errera @, Wednesday, January 26, 2022, 12:58 (194 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I understood that seasons were added because some players wanted content to grind even when there wasn't really any new content (more narrative, novel mechanics, new environments).


I feel like maybe you could replace the word 'players' with 'streamers' and have a more accurate sentence.

I feel like maybe this is an opinion with zero actual (non-anecdotal) data to back it up.

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Data Hive

by narcogen ⌂ @, Andover, Massachusetts, Thursday, January 27, 2022, 06:50 (193 days ago) @ Claude Errera

I understood that seasons were added because some players wanted content to grind even when there wasn't really any new content (more narrative, novel mechanics, new environments).


I feel like maybe you could replace the word 'players' with 'streamers' and have a more accurate sentence.


I feel like maybe this is an opinion with zero actual (non-anecdotal) data to back it up.

C'mon, Claude.

This is literally speculation about a pretty reasonable conclusion that nobody could have "data" to back it up with because it would require access to private communications between, oh, say, Bungie and the two well-known streamers who have been hired by Bungie in the past to consult on the game and who sign NDAs that cover everything they do while at Bungie and so are prevented from talking about it.

Datto in particular has gone on AT LENGTH during his streams over his frustration that:

* Destiny has not consistently provided enough content to make regular streaming of the game interesting or fun to play or watch;

and

* The vagaries of the algorithm that promotes videos on sites like YouTube and Twitch actively frustrate those who attempt to become "variety" streamers, leading to fewer viewers and less engagement on videos on other topics, meaning he's better off streaming more "challenge" and roll grinding content in Destiny than trying to play other games.

But I'm sure he never mentioned that to Bungie, that they hired him as a consultant without watching his streams, and that they certainly never listened to anything he said, or made any decisions about the design of the game based on things they paid him to say.

Because, of course, even if they did, I don't have "data" to back it up. Because there can't be any without someone breaking an NDA.

Or one could look at the stunningly massive orgy of evidence in the game market right now to the effect that everyone wants a game as a service model, that streaming is part of promotion of that model even more so than other models for gaming, and conclude that there's at least a correlation, if not a causal, connection between the two.

Otherwise it's merely coincidental that the kind of content that this model wants and creates also just happens to be the kind of thing that lets someone run a successful channel-- that encourages them to, in fact-- play only one game on a daily basis.

Data Hive

by Claude Errera @, Thursday, January 27, 2022, 09:07 (193 days ago) @ narcogen

I understood that seasons were added because some players wanted content to grind even when there wasn't really any new content (more narrative, novel mechanics, new environments).


I feel like maybe you could replace the word 'players' with 'streamers' and have a more accurate sentence.


I feel like maybe this is an opinion with zero actual (non-anecdotal) data to back it up.


C'mon, Claude.

This is literally speculation about a pretty reasonable conclusion that nobody could have "data" to back it up with because it would require access to private communications between, oh, say, Bungie and the two well-known streamers who have been hired by Bungie in the past to consult on the game and who sign NDAs that cover everything they do while at Bungie and so are prevented from talking about it.

Datto in particular has gone on AT LENGTH during his streams over his frustration that:

* Destiny has not consistently provided enough content to make regular streaming of the game interesting or fun to play or watch;

and

* The vagaries of the algorithm that promotes videos on sites like YouTube and Twitch actively frustrate those who attempt to become "variety" streamers, leading to fewer viewers and less engagement on videos on other topics, meaning he's better off streaming more "challenge" and roll grinding content in Destiny than trying to play other games.

But I'm sure he never mentioned that to Bungie, that they hired him as a consultant without watching his streams, and that they certainly never listened to anything he said, or made any decisions about the design of the game based on things they paid him to say.

Because, of course, even if they did, I don't have "data" to back it up. Because there can't be any without someone breaking an NDA.

Or one could look at the stunningly massive orgy of evidence in the game market right now to the effect that everyone wants a game as a service model, that streaming is part of promotion of that model even more so than other models for gaming, and conclude that there's at least a correlation, if not a causal, connection between the two.

Otherwise it's merely coincidental that the kind of content that this model wants and creates also just happens to be the kind of thing that lets someone run a successful channel-- that encourages them to, in fact-- play only one game on a daily basis.

I'm not arguing that this hasn't been the (vocal) request of prominent streamers. I'm arguing that Cody's belief that it's ONLY streamers that want this is based on... nothing.

I've played with a wide-enough variety of normal, non-streaming players that I understand that a LOT of people enjoy this. I also understand that a lot of people don't. Cody has been complaining about this for quite some time... and to me at least, it seems that over time he's gotten more certain that it's ONLY streamers that feel this way. I wanted to make the point that this is an opinion - not fact. And that it's not based on any real info.

Bungie ABSOLUTELY has data that shows, one way or the other, which side of this argument is more true (you can compare player retention in seasons where the grind has intentionally been ramped up to seasons where it hasn't, for example). They have not shared this data with us explicitly, but I'd argue that they're leaning into the route that gets more players... because that's where the money is.

Cody, I think, would argue that they've gone full exploitative, and they don't really care whether we're happy playing, or just having our hindbrains tickled enough that we can't leave. I simply don't buy that argument.

::shrug::

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Data Hive

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, January 27, 2022, 09:23 (193 days ago) @ Claude Errera

There is a difference between what maximizes money, and what maximizes fun. What regular players want is only tangential. If enough people merely tolerate a certain model, rather than prefer it, and that model makes more money, then that’s what is happening.

I can’t say whether the average player prefers or merely tolerates how Destiny currently operates - that is indeed outside my scope of knowledge. But as Narcogen has explained, it’s pretty obvious which one streamers prefer.

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Data Hive

by narcogen ⌂ @, Andover, Massachusetts, Thursday, January 27, 2022, 09:43 (193 days ago) @ Claude Errera


I feel like maybe you could replace the word 'players' with 'streamers' and have a more accurate sentence.

I'm not arguing that this hasn't been the (vocal) request of prominent streamers. I'm arguing that Cody's belief that it's ONLY streamers that want this is based on... nothing.

That's not how I read what Cody said at all-- even if that is what he is saying elsewhere.

Even if only a higher percentage of streamers felt this way compared to the general population, that would make his substitution a more accurate statement, without needing to assert that this desire is non-existent in the general population.

I've played with a wide-enough variety of normal, non-streaming players that I understand that a LOT of people enjoy this.

Skinner boxes work on people. And I'm one of them! These techniques also work on me, and right now I'm trying to queue to get back into the game to tick some boxes off on a checklist.

I also understand that a lot of people don't. Cody has been complaining about this for quite some time... and to me at least, it seems that over time he's gotten more certain that it's ONLY streamers that feel this way. I wanted to make the point that this is an opinion - not fact. And that it's not based on any real info.

It's not very meaningful to say a speculation isn't based on real info where it cannot be. I don't think anyone would reasonably think Cody has inside information on the topic, or think that his usual overconfident assertions require any :)


Bungie ABSOLUTELY has data that shows, one way or the other, which side of this argument is more true (you can compare player retention in seasons where the grind has intentionally been ramped up to seasons where it hasn't, for example). They have not shared this data with us explicitly, but I'd argue that they're leaning into the route that gets more players... because that's where the money is.

Where more money is, yes. Where more players are? No. GaaS is based on casting a wide enough net to get a sustainable population and then maximize the return from that population.

There's nothing about literally removing the opening campaign of your game, constantly changing the way progression works, and creating an ecosystem that's so arcane and complicated that it practically makes it mandatory to use third party tools and follow various channels that provide basic information on activities and weekly/daily changes and schedules in order to advance and play effectively that is friendly to growing a population.

Between DLCs, season passes, special editions, merch, and in-game item sales, what I'd allege Bungie knows is that there are points on the curve where you make more money from fewer people if you design a game that caters to people who play in a particular way.


Cody, I think, would argue that they've gone full exploitative, and they don't really care whether we're happy playing, or just having our hindbrains tickled enough that we can't leave. I simply don't buy that argument.

They're not as nakedly exploitive as they could be. But they're not the least, either.

What I think I probably have come around to agreeing with Cody on is that the nature of the model itself is exploitive, even if some of the most egregious practices are excluded.

Even there Bungie is being worse than it used to be-- cosmetics only was one thing, but now there are Exotic weapons that only come with preorder bundles, so...

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Data Hive

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, January 27, 2022, 10:03 (193 days ago) @ narcogen

I'm not arguing that this hasn't been the (vocal) request of prominent streamers. I'm arguing that Cody's belief that it's ONLY streamers that want this is based on... nothing.


That's not how I read what Cody said at all-- even if that is what he is saying elsewhere.

I'm not. I don't think I've ever said that ONLY streamers want this. But if I had to guess, I'd say a greater proportion of them want it than non streamers. And they certainly have more influence, both directly and indirectly.

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Data Hive

by narcogen ⌂ @, Andover, Massachusetts, Thursday, January 27, 2022, 10:25 (193 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I'm not arguing that this hasn't been the (vocal) request of prominent streamers. I'm arguing that Cody's belief that it's ONLY streamers that want this is based on... nothing.


That's not how I read what Cody said at all-- even if that is what he is saying elsewhere.


I'm not. I don't think I've ever said that ONLY streamers want this. But if I had to guess, I'd say a greater proportion of them want it than non streamers. And they certainly have more influence, both directly and indirectly.

I'd agree with that.

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That's also how I feel.

by narcogen ⌂ @, Andover, Massachusetts, Thursday, January 27, 2022, 06:40 (193 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I understood that seasons were added because some players wanted content to grind even when there wasn't really any new content (more narrative, novel mechanics, new environments).


I feel like maybe you could replace the word 'players' with 'streamers' and have a more accurate sentence.

That's true, and I expect that streamers, especially big ones, have more impact, but I do think there are players that have the same attitude-- heck, to some degree, I am one-- what I wished for in the Halo era was regular, essentially subscription, content in the same engine, delivered regularly and more often, without a 3 year wait between installments.

Cue Switch meme: "not like this"

Which seems to incentivize either going all in-- base game, DLC, and season passes-- or nothing, because it seems like nobody would really be able to understand what's going on in Witch Queen without either playing several of the preceding seasons (some more relevant than others, I expect) or watching a catchup video.


It's intentional. This is how free to play is meant to work. When you're in, they want you to stay in, and thus keep paying. Interruptions would set you behind, so it's working as intended. It's not about having an accessible, lasting work of art.

Broadly speaking I agree. As others note below, I think it can be done better and with less FOMO-- ironically Fallout 76 does a good job with this. There's no story content you can "miss out" on by not being able to play during special events, and the limited time events are designed to be standalone.

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