A legit responce (Destiny)

by Earendil, Tuesday, June 07, 2016, 00:24 (2931 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Cody, sometimes I'm sorry that I don't have (or choose to have) more time to respond to some of your argument inducing posts. But here I am, so let's go :)

I am reminded of an old article from 2013 when Pete Parsons was talking about Bungie and their goals for Destiny and the universe.

He said the following:

"We like to tell big stories and we want people to put the Destiny universe on the same shelf they put Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter or Star Wars".

Okay, so for stupid reasons I've never read Harry Potter or seen any of the movies, so I'm going to shelve that and completely ignore it as a target when making my reply.

My first though upon reading that is "That's a great thing to shoot for, but shooting for it doesn't mean you can archive it". Many books and movies have tried to be the next Star Wars and TLOTR and they failed not for lack of effort, they failed because those stories are right place, right time, right author. BUT, that doesn't mean they aren't worth shooting for, and I don't believe anyone who shoots for them has failed per-say just because their works don't end up in a tie for best trilogy.

Compare this with Naughty Dog, whose most recent games are already being compared favorably over other non video game works. Notice how Destiny largely has not succeed here.

Huh, interesting. I've never heard of Naughty Dog. Perhaps I'm running in the wrong literacy circles? I know that will be interpreted as sarcastic, but it's not and I mean what I say. Game reviews and cutting edge games are not what I spend my time following. But until one of my non-gaming friends tells me about a story that takes place in a game, I'll be loathe to believe anything has come close to TLOTR, despite what some 20 something game reviewer says.

Destiny's success I think has largely been in the 'gamey' circle. It's managed to capture people who like to play PvP, or play activities for the best guns and gear. I don't think it has branched out from this and created any sort of lasting cultural impact beyond that.

Here is the thing about cultural impact, it's really hard to tell it's been impacted until years later. Take Tolkien again as the example, in a lot of ways he defined what a dwarf and elf were. BUT, so many of those "definitions" didn't really see wide spread acceptance until decades after the books were published. I grew up playing a little known game called "Realmz" that introduced me to the caricatures of Tolkien races, and it wasn't until years afterwards that I put two and two together and realized Tolkien was the one that placed those ideas in popular culture (if not also invented).

I'd also argue that Tolkein's influence was largely in the literature circle, and that it took decades for it to influence film and game, at least from a "pop culture" standpoint.

I don't think people are caring about the Destiny universe in the same way that they care about the three universes mentioned in the quote. They haven't really succeeded here. I've written about why I think this is the case. But to say people don't care about the Destiny universe at all is wrong. They clearly do. Just not in the manner they were aiming for.

Here is where I disagree. Strongly. Perhaps it's because I don't know Harry potter, but I have a feeling that I still know what makes Star Wars and TLOTRs great, and it's NOT the main story arc. It's really not. The main story arc is incredibly straight forward if not boring. The character development is bland, and the characters are near forgettable. No, what makes Star Wars and TLOTRs great is the universe that has been created around the story. This is particularly true in TLOTRs, which goes out of its way repeatedly to drop hints or clues as to bigger things, and give you NO conclusion. Tolkien posits way more questions and mystic than he ever bothers to explain to the reader, and THAT'S what makes it an interesting universe and world. To (a much lesser) extent this is what makes Star Wards great too. The FOrce? Wtf is that? Who knows, it just is, and we the viewer don't and can't understand it, which means it's allowed to surprise us. This is in part why the whole "midiclorians" (sp?) pissed so many people off. It'd be like if the Hobbit movie tried to answer the questions of who Tom Bombadil or who Beorn (not our Beorn, the Hobbit one that his name sake comes from) is. It'd be stupid because it would take the mystery out of the universe.

GIven that description, which may or may not match yours, Destiny has REALLY succeeded! The 9? Missing Guardians of great power? The Traveler? The Darkness? The Awoken? What's the goal of the other races? Destiny has so much mystery and wonder that I actually think it fits right in with TLOTRs and other great universe creating works like Dune. So many players, so much agenda, and little of it is known to the viewer as of yet. Bungie (in my mind) has indeed created the kind of world that we WANT stories to be told in because it's an amazing universe. The shame of it all is (and no one disagrees here) that there just isn't enough plot and story within the universe yet. It can be bland or predictable. It can have simple characters, BUT the story needs to thread us through this universe and introduce us to the players a little bit better. We need to bump into The Nine even if it gives us no one than what Tom Bombadil gave us. THAT is what is missing from Destiny IMHO, and not the universe creating wonder that Tolkien, Lucas and Herbert gave us.

It's a combination of investment driven game mechanics, and a failure of visual storytelling that has placed Destiny where it is.

Interesting, as neither of those attributes are what made Star Wars or Middle Earth the universes that they are.

Now, I don't know if they are okay with that or not. I don't think there's anything wrong with being revered in terms of the 'gamey' aspects of your game. In that regard, I'd say that they did succeed. But their success does not seem to be the type of success highlighted in this article.

They succeeded where they needed too. Tolkien could have created the most brilliant universe to have ever existed, and yet if he didn't have a half way decent grasp of writing we'd never known it. A game's ability to be fun and immersive (in an interactive way) are the equivalent. I can play Destiny and forget I'm using a controller. There are many games I've played that, despite the story, failed that, and failing that they ruin the story. A game has to be a game first, and with that Bungie nailed it. I'd also argue that they nailed the universe building, and my evidence for that is how much people want Bungie to tell a story. No one wants another National Treasure movie made, they want another Star Wars movie made. They don't want another star wars movie made because they want to know what happened to the characters, they want more stories in that universe.

I wonder if their aims have changed. I think that might actually be a good move. It's almost better to bank on the game aspects because Bungie has a very good track record there. But to continue to pursue this goal might be not only misguided, but fundamentally incompatible with the type of game systems they have made.

I've of the opinion that the type of game system has exactly zero to do with the ability of the designer to tell a good story. I've been engrossed in stories in just about ever genre under the sun (except for racing, those suck).

In closing, I submit the above as evidence that it doesn't matter how good a universe *I* create, my writing style and ability will render it un-explorable. Which is to say I'm not proof reading this, I have to leave :)