I think you missed my point *Link added* (Destiny)

by CruelLEGACEY , Toronto, Monday, February 01, 2016, 01:53 (3442 days ago) @ narcogen
edited by CruelLEGACEY, Monday, February 01, 2016, 02:16

They go and tarnish the "great team-based mode" by not making it easy enough to win playing solo? Gee, I can't imagine.

That's not actually what I said at all. My complaint is not "it is too tough for solo players to win". My complaint is that they add a secondary method for players to rank up that isn't dependant on winning (bounties), then twist that method so that it too requires winning.

If the bounties require winning they are not a secondary method that is not dependent on winning. You want them to be that, because they could be that, and perhaps in the past, they were that, but currently they are not.

So the question then once again becomes-- why would they introduce a team mode and provide every inducement, both carrot and stick, to get people to play in a team instead of solo?

Gee, I can't imagine.

If Bungie was that set on making IB a "teams only" activity, they wouldn't let you join solo (like they do with Trials). Iron banner is a team game mode that allows solo players to be matched up together. Of course going in as a full team is ideal, but Bungie made the decision to allow solo players to join.

As far as progression goes, they give us 2 paths to rank up: winning games and completing bounties. Winning games requires teamwork more often than not. People playing with their friends stand a much better chance of winning regularly. I have absolutely no problem with that.

But Bungie doesn't want solo players to be screwed, so they added bounties that were largely skill based and can be completed through personal performance. Even if my team doesn't win, I can complete a few bounties per day and make some progress.

The best way to progress is to do both (win and complete skill-based bounties). So players are insentivised to play as a group AND play well individually. But if you can only do 1 or the other, you can still progress at a slightly slower pace. It's a great system that works for everybody.

This time around, things are a bit different. Rift is even more dependant on teamwork than clash or control, so winning without a full group is tougher than usual. Cool. But to then take the bounties and make several of them dependant on winning is a very punishing shift against solo players. So that's 2 changes that harm solo players.

Even so, I could live with that if matchmaking did a better job of keeping things fair. I like a challenge, and as someone who averages 20-30 kills per game, I don't mind trying to tough it out. But even matchmaking is working against solo players. As a solo player, you are far more likely to enter JIP games, and get thrown on the losing team. You are also more likely to get thrown in with a group of other solo players, while being matched against full teams. In these situations, your team ends up being short-handed for half the game as other solos quit and are replaced.

What was a system that worked out well for solo players as much as full teams no longer does.

I just got thrown in to 4 JIP matches in a row, on to the losing (and still short handed) team each time, against full 6-man-party enemy teams. And I can't make any progress because the 2 bounties I'm still holding require a win.

"Don't play if it's not fun". I know, that's the golden rule. But I HAVE to play if I want to buy that fusion rifle, and I won't have time later, and I won't have time to play again before the event ends.

You don't HAVE to want that fusion rifle. This is why I don't play IB. I had to play crucible to get some of the weapons I wanted and I may have complained while doing it, but there's a difference between complaining about something you don't like or enjoy and asserting that it constitutes a design flaw by the developer.

Obviously I don't "have to want it". I'm not a psychopath. But I looked at it and said "hey that's cool, I'd like to play Iron Banner >anyway and that looks like a great piece of gear to work towards". I played Iron Banner all week with friends, having a blast, but on my >last day I needed to go solo. That's when I found myself stuck in a situation where I simply could not progress because of the nature of >the activity combined with the specific bounties available. All I needed to hit rank 5 was 1 win OR 1 bounty... But the only 2 bounties left >required a win. Thanks to matchmaking, that took me almost 2 hours to get. That absolutely is a design flaw.

...

I have no words. Literally.

Your following wall of text says otherwise ;)

It is a design flaw because the system was not designed to cope with the fact that in order for you to get your fusion rifle on a day where you couldn't play with friends, you couldn't win any games and couldn't complete any bounties (because they required winning games). In a team mode where you were playing solo?

Yes it is. I'm fine with not winning. As I explained above, Iron Banner has been designed to allow players to make some progress without winning. Until the right (or should I say wrong?) combo of bounties makes that suddenly impossible. The inclusion of those bounties creates a situation that is frustrating, with no benefits to the game. I consider that a flaw.

I think people keep wanting or expecting some kind of very smooth progression curve from Destiny, and I just don't get where the expectation comes from. Maybe because I never seriously played any other MMOs. I get that winning is more fun than losing, and that progressing is more fun than not progressing, and I get why grind is not fun-- if one structures one's gameplay in the way that creates grind, as in, "I am now only doing things that progress this quest that requires 50 things, so I will play and collect those things until I have all 50 of those things".

I'll just step in here and say I've never played an MMO ever, so I don't carry any expectations from that direction.

Good things that happen in the game are only good in opposition to things that aren't. Winning is sweet because losing is bitter. Getting loot is great because going home empty-handed sucks. Killing things is awesome because dying is a drag.

Why isn't this a cool story about that one time you almost ran the table during an IB week but lost out at the last minute because you couldn't get a win, and how much does that suck? Can't good stories about things that happen in Destiny be about bad things that happen?

Heck, I guess you're right, it isn't even that interesting a story because your complaint isn't that you didn't get what you want but it took two hours to do. I give up.

A couple months ago, I made a post about this very topic. I LIKE times of struggle or failure in a game... IF I feel like the situation was fair. You're talking to a guy who's favorite thing in the game is Trials of Osiris. But what we're talking about here with IB is not the same thing. With Trials, you know what you're getting in to right from the start. It's all up to you're team and your ability to win. The Black Spindel mission is another great example of that. I spent hours trying to get it that first night, and failed. And I LOVE having that experience.

Players go in to Iron Banner knowing that playing with friends is ideal, but you can still make progress solo. To have the game suddenly change the rules on you when you're 1 win away from your goal is not a failure of the player's making. It doesn't become one of those "remember the time I almost pulled it off!" stories.