Absolutely! (Destiny)

by narcogen , Andover, Massachusetts, Monday, September 28, 2015, 11:47 (3389 days ago) @ Ragashingo

Is that how sexism works? We have to have exactly a 50/50 split or the developer is doing it wrong? Or do we need more? To be rid of sexism do two out of every three characters have to be female? Three out of three? Does Bungie need to develop a forth Class not for gameplay reasons but solely so we can have four Vanguard leaders around that table so that two can be male and two can be female?

Not necessarily. However what harm would have there have been in making two out of three of them female instead of the other way around?

And what is gained? Checking off a checkbox that says: "Has more females than males"? And, again, how is having the balance in favor of females any better? Is sexism only a thing when it goes against females?

Currently, yes, absolutely. The world we live in is currently half male and half female (an oversimplification, but we're not getting into nuances at the moment). Destiny's world is fictional, so Bungie can make it however they like, but it's worth asking why they choose to make it the way it is. Some Destiny players are female and it's worth wondering why, if Bungie so chooses, the world of Destiny does not have a gender balance similar to the world we live in.

It's worth noting that you immediately jump to "has MORE females than males" when the idea was having a believable balance. It's sort of like the anecdote that illustrates that when a room with 10 occupants has 3 females, the men in the room think the split is 50/50, and when the split is actually 50/50, men think they are outnumbered.

I guess my question is this-- if the Speaker was female, and 2 out of 3 Vanguards were female, and maybe one other vendor, how would you feel about it? Would you feel things were worse, somehow?

For instance:
- 6 out of 7 of the Queen's Paladin commanders were female.
- Almost every single Awoken shown in a combat role, except the Queen's Brother, has been female.
- The entire Hive race appears to start out as and identify as female.
Should these example also be brought to a 50/50 balance?

Again, not necessarily. Merely doing so would not be enough if other problems existed. It's also hard to point out that women are portrayed positively, and then show how many of the examples we do have come from the Hive.

Two out of three of my examples there were about the Awoken. ;) But, more seriously, that only leads me back to my argument that numbers don't matter so much as long as the portrayal of the sexes is done right. I'd buy that having a "sufficient" representation of each sex is important but I think making an issue out of a 1/3 vs 2/3 split in leadership, for instance, is taking things a good bit too far.

It is a bigger problem! However, it starts with the balance. The first problem that a game can have is no portrayal at all. Then it can portray women as inferior or subservient, or use them merely as symbols for telling men's stories. Destiny avoids some of these but not all.

Destiny certainly doesn't have zero females. I don't think there's any case that it portrays women as inferior or subservient. I think you'd have to go down the "symbols for telling men's stories" path which is quite a hard one.

It's not hard at all for game narratives in general. As I said, I believe Destiny is better than the average game in these respects, and is very far from ones that are bad. But so far things are tipping in that direction; one female tower vendor is a clothier, one has gone MIA, the major female NPC from vanilla destiny is missing, most of the major leadership positions, friend and foe, are occupied by males, one major NPC female faction leader was just killed off, and another is likely to go evil.

Bungie is doing better than most, but again, that doesn't mean that no criticisms are valid. The Guardian power structure in the tower, for instance, swings strongly in one direction, both in terms of numbers and screen time and character importance. But the numbers are the start of the conversation, and not the end.

Yeah, and this is one part that really annoys me. If I as a writer come up with a story and characters that I love who happen to be leaning a bit, even a good bit, more male (or female?!) then I'm sexist? Eventually the arguments stop being about the treatment of women and become about quota filling. About making sure you have "enough" women. How far do we go with this. When creating a new character (for a work of fiction) should I alway consider making that character a woman before I consider anything else? Because, boiled down, it sound like that's where you are headed. :(

The world you live in is more than half female. So, yes, I'd say diverging from that is something you'd expect to have a reason for doing. Even if you were just writing a biography, you'd expect the cast of characters to resemble the real world. If it didn't, with respect to gender, I guess I'd wonder-- what is it about the world you inhabit that makes the males interesting and important, and the females less so-- and does that say something about the world you live in, or something about you?

That would be nice. So far the best female characters we've been given have been killed (the Queen) may turn out to be evil (Eris) or have been missing in action for most of the game (Exo Stranger). In their place we've gotten Crota and Oryx. As you say, the entire Hive starts out female, but then the two most important characters from that pantheon we get are male. Any reason we couldn't have been fighting the Taken Queen, mother of Crota? Would that have killed anybody?

The Taken King was opposed by the Awoken Queen in one of the game's longest and most impressive cutscenes. It wouldn't kill anybody, no, but (and this is an honest question so think long and hard about it) is your motive really about the correct treatment and portrayal of women, or is it about simply making the superficial numbers be equal? I think looking at how Destiny has treated its female characters shows that Bungie does not have any problems placing women in positions of power, letting them make independent decisions, or making them capable of leading or fighting. Is 1/3 vs 2/3 really even a blip on the radar compared to that?! Should it be?

I gave an exhaustive account both in terms of numbers across the game, and in terms of how the portrayals and situations are weakened. You keep reducing it to 2/3.

Why isn't the question-- why are 2/3 of them male? Why is that the default?