We need examples of good as well as bad, though (Gaming)

by CruelLEGACEY , Toronto, Thursday, March 22, 2018, 08:36 (2439 days ago) @ Harmanimus
edited by CruelLEGACEY, Thursday, March 22, 2018, 09:15

Not because I want to have a point of conflict and not explicitly directed at you, but because you (and possibly others) may see those items and feel they are not negatives, but the emphasis is on toxicity. I know this is probably more political, but I know that this place has some diverse backgrounds and I think it is important to address.

manning up and not crying

Needing to respond to stress through "dealing with it" especially with the extra verbal implication of "manning" can lead to stunted emotional/social understanding and an internalization of unyielding stoicism which is emotionally and psychologically poisoning to an individual vested in the notion that they must not share emotions (crying is a release, with chemical variance based on the chemical releases it is attempting to flush) for that would make them less. This limits their indulgence or acceptance in positive emotions as well as confronting negative emotions. Without the tool set, support, and understanding to properly handle those circumstances you tend to lead to emotional outbursts or other harmful action/inaction which leads us to . . .

not showing weakness

This compounds itself through gendered insults (Cody's third example) which inherently assume inferiority and negativity to the feminine (a simple comparable to exert strength against so as to avoid displays of weakness) which cyclically supports seeing women as inferior (not even touching on how this supports internalized misogyny in women and young girls) and with a superior/inferior dichotomy established through a need to not show such weakness (specifically publicly) many men who are indoctrinated with toxic masculinity will utilize the implicit or explicit threat of violence (physical, verbal, psychological) to establish and maintain an "alpha" (such a bad term) personality. Generally this is at the expense of female family member's or romantic partner's (who are often subjected to a traditional assumption of being the sole point of emotional support of emotionally stunted men instead of relying on a developed and supportive social group) emotional and psychological well being. Sometimes physical.

I needed to express that because the concept of toxicity is all about volume. There is a volume where both oxygen and water are toxic to humans, even though we require them to live. So even if on their own these concepts don't seem toxic to you, in large doses or in conjunction with other aspects that they often feed into you do result in very obvious toxic behaviors.

This is actually one of the reasons Kylo Ren is a terrible role model and the people who think he needs a redemption arc in IX are some of the most frustrating people to have conversations with about TLJ. Not saying that's you. I just know a lot of people who are pro-Ren or pro-Reylo. /wretch

Not because I want to have a point of conflict and not explicitly directed at you, but because you (and possibly others) may see those items and feel they are not negatives, but the emphasis is on toxicity. I know this is probably more political, but I know that this place has some diverse backgrounds and I think it is important to address.

manning up and not crying

Needing to respond to stress through "dealing with it" especially with the extra verbal implication of "manning" can lead to stunted emotional/social understanding and an internalization of unyielding stoicism which is emotionally and psychologically poisoning to an individual vested in the notion that they must not share emotions (crying is a release, with chemical variance based on the chemical releases it is attempting to flush) for that would make them less. This limits their indulgence or acceptance in positive emotions as well as confronting negative emotions. Without the tool set, support, and understanding to properly handle those circumstances you tend to lead to emotional outbursts or other harmful action/inaction which leads us to . . .

not showing weakness

This compounds itself through gendered insults (Cody's third example) which inherently assume inferiority and negativity to the feminine (a simple comparable to exert strength against so as to avoid displays of weakness) which cyclically supports seeing women as inferior (not even touching on how this supports internalized misogyny in women and young girls) and with a superior/inferior dichotomy established through a need to not show such weakness (specifically publicly) many men who are indoctrinated with toxic masculinity will utilize the implicit or explicit threat of violence (physical, verbal, psychological) to establish and maintain an "alpha" (such a bad term) personality. Generally this is at the expense of female family member's or romantic partner's (who are often subjected to a traditional assumption of being the sole point of emotional support of emotionally stunted men instead of relying on a developed and supportive social group) emotional and psychological well being. Sometimes physical.

I needed to express that because the concept of toxicity is all about volume. There is a volume where both oxygen and water are toxic to humans, even though we require them to live. So even if on their own these concepts don't seem toxic to you, in large doses or in conjunction with other aspects that they often feed into you do result in very obvious toxic behaviors.

This is actually one of the reasons Kylo Ren is a terrible role model and the people who think he needs a redemption arc in IX are some of the most frustrating people to have conversations with about TLJ. Not saying that's you. I just know a lot of people who are pro-Ren or pro-Reylo. /wretch

I wanted to try to respond to this without falling too far down a political rabbit hole :)

For the record, I agree with everything you've said. But I also believe that the current trend to throw around the term "toxic" is actually causing more harm than good, for several reasons (not least of which is that some people, who frankly just don't know what they are talking about, will label anything they don't like as an example of "toxic X" as a way of hopping over debate or reasoning and trying to claim moral superiority).

I'm a firm believer in leading and teaching through example. We absolutely need to be aware of the dangers or negative aspects of any form of behavior or thinking. But that alone is far from enough. We actually need positive examples of behavior to help teach and promote a strong and healthy mode of being. And traditionally speaking, that's a large part of what mythological tales have tried to do.

I'll give a personal example, just to illustrate my point.

My grandfather was always a bit of a tyrant. Classic "do what I say, or else!" type of figurehead. He would make offers to "help" his family, but they were never more than thinly veiled attempts to control. He had lots of money, so one of his favorite tricks was to offer to buy something for someone in the family, but only if they agreed to let him choose what to buy. I'm talking about big stuff, like a car or a house. So on the one hand, his offers were massively grand, but also designed to strip the rest of his family of any control or influence over their own destiny.

Now, it would be very simple to point to his behavior as an example of "toxic masculinity". I think it would be a fair and accurate assessment. I grew up telling myself as much, although that precise label didn't exist in my mind at that point. However, I would eventually discover the weakness in my thinking.

Years after the death of my grandfather, I became a parent for the first time. I'd grown up thinking of myself as a vastly different man than my grandfather. I considered myself fair, respectful of others around me and in my own family, aware of my own shortcomings. My wife and I had always worked to build a relationship where we were both equals in both responsibility and influence.

Then I became a father, and was utterly blindsided by thoughts, feelings, and urges that I had never experienced before. I'd always been protective of my wife, but in a healthy, non-controlling way. As soon as she became pregnant, I found myself flooded with fiercely protective urges, far beyond anything I'd ever experienced. Protective to the level of insanity. I recognized these urges as insane, and fought to keep my actions reasonable and level headed. But those feelings were still there, whether I approved of them or not. And they only got stronger when my daughter was actually born. Yet, while fighting to prevent these feelings from completely taking over, I couldn't help but recognize that they were there for a reason.

Pregnancy and delivery were extremely hard on my wife, and she had a long, slow recovery. She was vulnerable in many ways. Needless to say, our infant child was extremely vulnerable as well. I knew that if push came to shove, it really was up to me to protect them. Very shortly after my daughter's birth, the 3 of us went to a cafe across the street from our apartment. I was carrying my daughter in a harness on my chest. A very disturbed man walked into the cafe and began making a scene. He threw his coffee at me, hitting me in the leg. Then he caught a glimpse of my face. I was standing there, with my daughter strapped to me, fully ready to go to hell and back in response to whatever he did next. I didn't budge or blink. He must have recognized the fire in my eyes, because despite the fact that he was clearly looking for a fight, he decided he didn't want this particular fight. After trying to match my gaze for a few moments, he sheepishly left.

So I knew these feelings that had risen up inside me served a purpose. I couldn't just ignore them or admonish them. In times of need, they were actually invaluable. But I also began to see that there was an insidious side to them. My protective urges were a response to fear. I was afraid all the time. Afraid that something bad would happen to my daughter or wife. Afraid that if I let my guard down for a moment, something would happen and I wouldn't be able to stop it. Then I started to notice how I was handling that fear. I was so on edge, stretched so thin by stress and worry and sleep deprivation, that I was desperate for any little bit of "control" that I could hold on to. It would creep up on me in subtle ways. I'd text my wife to tell her what I was bringing home for dinner, and when she asked if I could go somewhere else instead, I'd get angry. FURIOUS. Why can't she just eat the food I chose for her?!? I'd think to myself. These little flashes of anger started happening more and more frequently. How am I supposed to take care of this family if nobody every follows my decisions?! And that was the precise moment I truly understood my grandfather for the first time. It hit me like a truck. He wasn't just being a tyrant for the hell of it. He was afraid. The pressure of feeling responsible for his family was more than he could bare without resorting to imposing his will on every situation.

I still knew that my grandfather's behavior was wrong. And now that I was seeing hints of the same behavior in myself, I was more than a little concerned. But I'm a very lucky man. I'm lucky because I've had my own father to look up to my whole life, and he has spent every single day leading by example. I suddenly developed a whole new appreciation for just how strong and wise he was. Because he'd gone through all the same feelings I was going through, the same feelings that had lead to his father's oppressive behavior, yet he had managed to carry the weight of responsibility without ever buckling under it. My mother too. And I could write a whole other little story about how her strength and her example shaped me. But in this particular case, my father's influence cannot be overstated because his experiences could be more closely mapped on to my own. I was able to navigate this storm of conflicting thoughts and feelings because I knew what it looked like to handle it properly. I've watched my dad do it my entire life.

Knowing what is wrong is not enough. Ever. We also need to know what it right. When I look at the way many political discussions around gender roles tend to go these days, I usually see a verbal or written parade of everything that is wrong with men. Many of those points are valid. But if that is all we can talk about, we are in fact missing the point. Because people behave badly for many different reasons. Some of those reasons can show up in surprising ways. And if we are not properly equipped to deal with them, then we might get swept away by them.

And that, I believe, is at least part of where Kermit is coming from with regards to TLJ. I don't agree with his personal take on the movie, but I absolutely relate to what he's saying about the role of positive archetypal examples in mythology. Because I think that's the whole point of mythology. Yes, we need to know what the dark side looks like. But we need to know what the light side looks like too, as a way to fight off the darkness.