About the new raid... (Destiny)

by MacAddictXIV , Seattle WA, Tuesday, December 04, 2018, 10:22 (2209 days ago) @ Korny

Who knows, maybe ditching campaign means more resources going into the raid lair, which would upgrade it to proper Raid status, but considering the way those resources are being spread into three DLCs this time, instead of two, it may be smaller than usual.

I have mixed feelings on this.

Bungie ditching a campaign is good in the sense that their storytelling has been embarrassingly poor in general with the Destiny games. However, the campaigns do present the setting to you, which somewhat contextualizes all the truly fun activities.

A game that is just raids or other challenging activities that lack story would lose something I think. We are beyond the time when challenge alone was the dominant driving factor in immersion. This worked with older games because they were not as sophisticated in their audiovisual presentation to immerse through aesthetics. But games now are. In some sense aesthetics are more effective at immersion than pure challenge. But as the aesthetics of the game are very sophisticated, they feel hollow if not accompanied by some kind of contextualization for their existence.

It may make the game 'better', but the game would be better still if it utilized every avenue for immersion. You could get away with games of pure challenge back in the day because everything else was primitive. But now we have moved on and challenge is not the most important thing anymore.

It may be the best fix right now, but ultimately Destiny needs a solid campaign and narrative to really shine.

I don't think you actually need a full on campaign. As you said, you need context. Without knowing we are fighting a war (like the red one) the crucible doesn't make as much sense. Without seeing the queen and awoken and how prideful, reclusive and all that the dreaming city doesn't seem like a beautiful sanctuary. It all needs context and just seeing these people in the game and telling you clips of stuff doesn't do it all. You need missions that tell story. They don't need to be full on campaigns but we have to SEE these people and how they act to understand what this world is like.

Excellent points, both of you.

It actually reminds me of something folks were talking about a while back, with special regards to the "Just steak vs. Seasoning/sides/meal" metaphor, and SkillUp's talk about how cinematic quests like The Sacrifice are essential, even if they don't add new systems, loot, or gameplay content.

Bungie tossing story aside in favor of lore is a huge misstep that Bethesda just made with Fallout 76, and which clearly did not pay off, as the game's over-reliance on lore has led to a soulless world, and which removed any sense of agency, because you aren't being driven to accomplish something that will push the story forward, you're just looking backwards.

I don't have an issue with lore. I have never disliked stuff like audiotapes, environmental storytelling, books, or Lore Tabs. These are all the "noble pursuits" in storytelling; essential to flesh out your world, give players understanding, and giving context to the status quo... But we need cinematic quests involving us, so that we can feel a sense of importance or progress.

Sure, we can do a raid lair or two without meaningful context, and that'll be fun... But after a while, it's just another item on a weekly checklist that we aren't invested in (Spire of Stars, anyone?). And what has changed afterwards that can give players a sense of story progression? Like you said, what can give us a sense of immersion, and a feeling of impact?

I actually thought that the Leviathan was great story that added to Destiny. The Leviathan raid lairs did not. I'm all for them doing lairs and what not, but I need reason to do them outside why we are actually pursuing in the raid. Leviathan was more than Callus testing us in his games, it was about callus, the cabal, who he is to them and a character that was basically outside the light/darkness we are so use to seeing. THAT is what I want to see. Context for doing a raid is important, but to have a raid experience in the middle of world like Destiny and not know why it's there is not what I want. Also, Last Wish is another great example :D