The problem is...
Now when it comes to grinding for armor, I think that is fundamentally flawed system (even though every buys into it) because my charcter is forced to evolve. I can't start out with the look I want, I have to 'earn' it by playing. I never actually feel like unlocking armor in H4 is a reward, it'd more of a "finally" feeling.
As ever, the devil is in the details. This is why I take issue with this kind of sweeping, generalising Cody decree: it has massive collateral damage for things that an awful lot of players do enjoy (consciously or otherwise), not only in modern games (as Cody would have you believe) but also in older generation games dating all the way back to coin-op arcade games. What is effect of the power pill in Pac-Man other than a reward? Mario's temporary invulnerability? Extra lives for reaching so many points? Smart bombs in shoot ‘em ups? History is replete with examples of positive reward mechanics in games.
When discussing grinds, frequently these are rewards for meta-game activities rather than the primary mechanics. I think that's an important distinction, because anything that encourages or prioritises secondary game mechanics over the primary ones is likely to be less enjoyable (that's why they're secondary mechanics, after all). Where these are concerned, yes, I think there's a danger they can be harmful to the game's sense of fun, but as with so many things, YMMV.
Complete thread:
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-19, 16:13
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
ZackDark,
2013-04-19, 17:00
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-20, 11:26
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
SonofMacPhisto,
2013-04-20, 12:01
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience - stabbim, 2013-04-23, 09:09
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
SonofMacPhisto,
2013-04-20, 12:01
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-20, 11:26
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience - RaichuKFM, 2013-04-19, 17:00
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Ragashingo,
2013-04-19, 17:42
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-19, 17:49
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience - Malagate, 2013-04-19, 18:13
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-19, 17:49
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience - Xenos, 2013-04-19, 18:53
- "Only a Miller deals in absolutes." -Oobedoob Benubi -
Leviathan,
2013-04-19, 20:18
- Worst thought out line ever in a movie -
ZackDark,
2013-04-19, 20:21
- Worst thought out [...] movie. -
Leviathan,
2013-04-19, 21:47
- Battles were pretty sweet, though -
ZackDark,
2013-04-19, 22:04
- Contradicts "Do or Do Not, There is No Try" -
RaichuKFM,
2013-04-20, 07:03
- And "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!" -
Quirel,
2013-04-20, 22:50
- I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough. It gets everywhere -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-21, 13:06
- You don’t want to sell me death sticks. -
Xenos,
2013-04-21, 14:37
- "I thought they smelled bad on the outside." -
ZackDark,
2013-04-21, 16:20
- WRONG TRILOGY! How dare you... -
Leviathan,
2013-04-21, 19:14
- WRONG TRILOGY! How dare you... -
ZackDark,
2013-04-21, 21:58
- This thread is getting heavy, Doc. -
SonofMacPhisto,
2013-04-22, 08:24
- Is that a quote from VII? -
Xenos,
2013-04-22, 08:52
- We've been here before, -
Chewbaccawakka,
2013-04-22, 10:02
- It is a strange fate... -
Mr Daax,
2013-04-22, 22:26
- That is the sound of inevitability... - thebruce, 2013-04-24, 06:48
- It is a strange fate... -
Mr Daax,
2013-04-22, 22:26
- Is that a quote from VII? - Cody Miller, 2013-04-22, 10:45
- We've been here before, -
Chewbaccawakka,
2013-04-22, 10:02
- Is that a quote from VII? -
Xenos,
2013-04-22, 08:52
- This thread is getting heavy, Doc. -
SonofMacPhisto,
2013-04-22, 08:24
- WRONG TRILOGY! How dare you... -
ZackDark,
2013-04-21, 21:58
- WRONG TRILOGY! How dare you... -
Leviathan,
2013-04-21, 19:14
- Not just the men, but the WOMEN, and the CHILDREN too! -
Cold,
2013-04-22, 11:48
- Now THIS is Pod Racing! -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-22, 14:08
- It's working! It's workiiiiiiiing! -
ZackDark,
2013-04-22, 14:09
- Holy Nostalgia - katancik, 2013-04-22, 20:47
- Yippeee! - Quirel, 2013-04-22, 20:54
- It's working! It's workiiiiiiiing! -
ZackDark,
2013-04-22, 14:09
- Now THIS is Pod Racing! -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-22, 14:08
- "I thought they smelled bad on the outside." -
ZackDark,
2013-04-21, 16:20
- You don’t want to sell me death sticks. -
Xenos,
2013-04-21, 14:37
- I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough. It gets everywhere -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-21, 13:06
- And "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!" -
Quirel,
2013-04-20, 22:50
- Contradicts "Do or Do Not, There is No Try" -
RaichuKFM,
2013-04-20, 07:03
- Battles were pretty sweet, though -
ZackDark,
2013-04-19, 22:04
- Worst thought out [...] movie. -
Leviathan,
2013-04-19, 21:47
- Worst thought out line ever in a movie -
ZackDark,
2013-04-19, 20:21
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience - Kalamari, 2013-04-20, 09:24
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience - SonofMacPhisto, 2013-04-20, 10:58
- yes - Decom, 2013-04-20, 14:44
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Jillybean,
2013-04-21, 05:49
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
ZackDark,
2013-04-21, 08:46
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Jillybean,
2013-04-21, 09:09
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience - ZackDark, 2013-04-21, 09:28
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience - John Hopson, 2013-04-22, 07:27
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Jillybean,
2013-04-21, 09:09
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-21, 09:09
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Jillybean,
2013-04-21, 09:11
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-21, 09:32
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Jillybean,
2013-04-21, 09:38
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
General Vagueness,
2013-05-09, 12:51
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience - Ragashingo, 2013-05-09, 13:13
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
General Vagueness,
2013-05-09, 12:51
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
RaichuKFM,
2013-04-21, 09:50
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience - Xenos, 2013-04-21, 12:34
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience - SonofMacPhisto, 2013-04-21, 13:39
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
thebruce,
2013-04-24, 07:00
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Xenos,
2013-04-24, 07:40
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
thebruce,
2013-04-24, 08:01
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience - Xenos, 2013-04-24, 08:11
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
thebruce,
2013-04-24, 08:01
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Xenos,
2013-04-24, 07:40
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience - Claude Errera, 2013-05-09, 13:21
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Jillybean,
2013-04-21, 09:38
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-21, 09:32
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Jillybean,
2013-04-21, 09:11
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
kapowaz,
2013-04-22, 09:14
- The problem is... -
breitzen,
2013-04-22, 10:23
- The problem is... -
kapowaz,
2013-04-23, 01:43
- The problem is... -
breitzen,
2013-04-23, 08:27
- The problem is... -
Xenos,
2013-04-23, 10:04
- The problem is... -
breitzen,
2013-04-23, 10:37
- Glad we agree :) -
Xenos,
2013-04-23, 10:44
- Whoo!!!! - breitzen, 2013-04-23, 10:52
- Glad we agree :) -
Xenos,
2013-04-23, 10:44
- The problem is... -
breitzen,
2013-04-23, 10:37
- The problem is... -
Xenos,
2013-04-23, 10:04
- The problem is... -
breitzen,
2013-04-23, 08:27
- The problem is... -
kapowaz,
2013-04-23, 01:43
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-22, 10:44
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Jillybean,
2013-04-22, 11:57
- Great Explanation! - breitzen, 2013-04-22, 12:35
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience - uberfoop, 2013-04-22, 23:31
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
thebruce,
2013-04-24, 07:19
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Jillybean,
2013-04-24, 08:00
- Why reward-motivated gaming can devalue the game experience - thebruce, 2013-04-24, 08:02
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Jillybean,
2013-04-24, 08:00
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Jillybean,
2013-04-22, 11:57
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Cold,
2013-04-22, 12:04
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
RaichuKFM,
2013-04-22, 12:26
- Multitude of Difficulty Levels -
Cold,
2013-04-23, 08:07
- Multitude of Difficulty Levels -
thebruce,
2013-04-24, 07:30
- Difficulty Levels 1-7 -
Cold,
2013-04-24, 09:04
- Difficulty Levels 1-7 -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-24, 10:30
- Difficulty Levels 1-7 -
Xenos,
2013-04-24, 11:11
- Difficulty Levels 1-7 -
Cold,
2013-04-24, 12:47
- Difficulty Levels 1-7 -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-24, 13:04
- Difficulty Levels 1-7 - Cold, 2013-04-24, 13:18
- Difficulty Levels 1-7 -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-24, 13:04
- Difficulty Levels 1-7 -
Cold,
2013-04-24, 12:47
- Difficulty Levels 1-7 -
Cold,
2013-04-24, 12:44
- Difficulty Levels 1-7 -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-24, 13:00
- That is the very point... -
Cold,
2013-04-24, 13:07
- That is the very point... -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-24, 13:11
- That is the very point... - Cold, 2013-04-24, 13:22
- That is the very point... -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-24, 13:11
- That is the very point... -
Cold,
2013-04-24, 13:07
- Difficulty Levels 1-7 -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-24, 13:00
- Difficulty Levels 1-7 -
Xenos,
2013-04-24, 11:11
- Difficulty Levels 1-7 -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-24, 10:30
- Difficulty Levels 1-7 -
Cold,
2013-04-24, 09:04
- Multitude of Difficulty Levels -
thebruce,
2013-04-24, 07:30
- Multitude of Difficulty Levels -
Cold,
2013-04-23, 08:07
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
RaichuKFM,
2013-04-22, 12:26
- The problem is... -
breitzen,
2013-04-22, 10:23
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
ZackDark,
2013-04-21, 08:46
- This is one of my problems with playing online. -
Mercury,
2013-04-22, 14:39
- Spot on. - thebruce, 2013-04-24, 07:32
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience - stabbim, 2013-04-23, 09:02
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards -
electricpirate,
2013-04-23, 10:16
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-23, 10:31
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards -
electricpirate,
2013-04-23, 11:23
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-23, 11:40
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards - RaichuKFM, 2013-04-23, 12:11
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards - electricpirate, 2013-04-23, 12:16
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards -
Kermit,
2013-04-23, 12:25
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards -
SonofMacPhisto,
2013-04-23, 14:51
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards -
Kermit,
2013-04-23, 16:26
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards - thebruce, 2013-04-24, 07:47
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards -
stabbim,
2013-04-24, 09:35
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-24, 10:18
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards - Xenos, 2013-04-24, 10:26
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards - stabbim, 2013-04-24, 15:22
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-24, 10:18
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards -
Kermit,
2013-04-23, 16:26
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards -
SonofMacPhisto,
2013-04-23, 14:51
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-28, 21:48
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards - RaichuKFM, 2013-04-29, 03:58
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards - thebruce, 2013-04-29, 06:42
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards - Kermit, 2013-04-29, 08:36
- Swings and round-a-bouts, Mr. Miller -
RC,
2013-04-29, 11:03
- Swings and round-a-bouts, Mr. Miller - Cody Miller, 2013-04-29, 11:39
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards - electricpirate, 2013-05-03, 07:34
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards - General Vagueness, 2013-05-09, 16:27
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-23, 11:40
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards -
electricpirate,
2013-04-23, 11:23
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-23, 10:31
- Kinda OT but . . . -
Jillybean,
2013-04-24, 08:05
- Nope, you're the devil! *NM* - Xenos, 2013-04-24, 08:14
- Kinda OT but . . . - SonofMacPhisto, 2013-04-24, 14:18
- Kinda OT but . . . -
Flynn J Taggart,
2013-04-24, 17:04
- Kinda OT but . . . - Cody Miller, 2013-04-24, 19:26
- Not much to add to the current conversation, but... -
Mr Daax,
2013-04-24, 16:01
- +1. Always thought so too. - ZackDark, 2013-04-24, 17:12
- Dude's a genuine 21st century Socrates - Stephen Laughlin, 2013-04-28, 20:19
- A short commentary on games design -
Oz Mills,
2013-04-30, 08:15
- A short commentary on games design -
kapowaz,
2013-04-30, 15:22
- A short commentary on games design - Oz Mills, 2013-05-01, 02:29
- A short commentary on games design -
kapowaz,
2013-04-30, 15:22
- SO WHO WON? -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-30, 19:29
- I wasn't aware we needed a winner. *NM* - Oz Mills, 2013-05-01, 01:42
- EVERYBODY. -
RaichuKFM,
2013-05-01, 03:48
- EVERYBODY. - ZackDark, 2013-05-01, 08:39
- Jury's still out -
thebruce,
2013-05-01, 07:55
- Jury's still out - Oz Mills, 2013-05-01, 08:18
- Ahah oops! -
Cody Miller,
2013-05-01, 15:23
- Heh, they just had. =P - ZackDark, 2013-05-01, 20:38
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
ZackDark,
2013-04-19, 17:00