Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards
I'm going to focus on your main reason for opposing player rewards (and by extension player penalties ), which is that focusing on the future somehow diminishes the experience in the now. RPGs are the most common example of this, they focus nearly entirely on the future, but I think strategy games are a better example. The quote above is Sid Meier's, of Civilization fame. Focusing on the future, and using player investment as a mechanism is when way to drive interesting choices in the now.
Let's take XCom; (either the new or the old, both are excellent). The future is constantly on the players mind, as losing resources and soldiers early on is costly, but recovering technology and resources is key. This leads to lots of interesting decisions, "Hey, do I risk this guy to stun an alien for a live capture, or play it safe." Or, "I can take our 4 aliens with a rocket, but I'll lose important resources if I do." Focus on the future is what Makes XCom such a tense taught experience.
Dark Souls is an action game that does this. By letting the player invest in a character, but making those resources vulnerable (You can lose them by dying) it forces skilled play.
That's just one way to look at it, player rewards have a host of other positive applications. They can be used to open up new gameplay avenues after a player has mastered the basics. Elder Scroll games, COD use the rewards of new mechanics in a steady drip instead of just dumping them on the character. Alternatively, people love the saratonin rush of a nice drop in an MMORPG or ARG.
As normal, you are dead wrong here. An excessive focus on moment to moment gameplay is just as detrimental as infinite treadmill reward systems. How many shallow blockbuster Uncharted style linear adventures or character action games do we need? Why should every game have buckets of regenerating health, and save systems that restart you at a checkpoint? The view that only moment to moment gameplay matters impedes progress and innovation.
Complete thread:
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-19, 16:13
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
ZackDark,
2013-04-19, 17:00
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-20, 11:26
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
SonofMacPhisto,
2013-04-20, 12:01
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience - stabbim, 2013-04-23, 09:09
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
SonofMacPhisto,
2013-04-20, 12:01
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-20, 11:26
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience - RaichuKFM, 2013-04-19, 17:00
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Ragashingo,
2013-04-19, 17:42
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-19, 17:49
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience - Malagate, 2013-04-19, 18:13
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-19, 17:49
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience - Xenos, 2013-04-19, 18:53
- "Only a Miller deals in absolutes." -Oobedoob Benubi -
Leviathan,
2013-04-19, 20:18
- Worst thought out line ever in a movie -
ZackDark,
2013-04-19, 20:21
- Worst thought out [...] movie. -
Leviathan,
2013-04-19, 21:47
- Battles were pretty sweet, though -
ZackDark,
2013-04-19, 22:04
- Contradicts "Do or Do Not, There is No Try" -
RaichuKFM,
2013-04-20, 07:03
- And "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!" -
Quirel,
2013-04-20, 22:50
- I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough. It gets everywhere -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-21, 13:06
- You don’t want to sell me death sticks. -
Xenos,
2013-04-21, 14:37
- "I thought they smelled bad on the outside." -
ZackDark,
2013-04-21, 16:20
- WRONG TRILOGY! How dare you... -
Leviathan,
2013-04-21, 19:14
- WRONG TRILOGY! How dare you... -
ZackDark,
2013-04-21, 21:58
- This thread is getting heavy, Doc. -
SonofMacPhisto,
2013-04-22, 08:24
- Is that a quote from VII? -
Xenos,
2013-04-22, 08:52
- We've been here before, -
Chewbaccawakka,
2013-04-22, 10:02
- It is a strange fate... -
Mr Daax,
2013-04-22, 22:26
- That is the sound of inevitability... - thebruce, 2013-04-24, 06:48
- It is a strange fate... -
Mr Daax,
2013-04-22, 22:26
- Is that a quote from VII? - Cody Miller, 2013-04-22, 10:45
- We've been here before, -
Chewbaccawakka,
2013-04-22, 10:02
- Is that a quote from VII? -
Xenos,
2013-04-22, 08:52
- This thread is getting heavy, Doc. -
SonofMacPhisto,
2013-04-22, 08:24
- WRONG TRILOGY! How dare you... -
ZackDark,
2013-04-21, 21:58
- WRONG TRILOGY! How dare you... -
Leviathan,
2013-04-21, 19:14
- Not just the men, but the WOMEN, and the CHILDREN too! -
Cold,
2013-04-22, 11:48
- Now THIS is Pod Racing! -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-22, 14:08
- It's working! It's workiiiiiiiing! -
ZackDark,
2013-04-22, 14:09
- Holy Nostalgia - katancik, 2013-04-22, 20:47
- Yippeee! - Quirel, 2013-04-22, 20:54
- It's working! It's workiiiiiiiing! -
ZackDark,
2013-04-22, 14:09
- Now THIS is Pod Racing! -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-22, 14:08
- "I thought they smelled bad on the outside." -
ZackDark,
2013-04-21, 16:20
- You don’t want to sell me death sticks. -
Xenos,
2013-04-21, 14:37
- I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough. It gets everywhere -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-21, 13:06
- And "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!" -
Quirel,
2013-04-20, 22:50
- Contradicts "Do or Do Not, There is No Try" -
RaichuKFM,
2013-04-20, 07:03
- Battles were pretty sweet, though -
ZackDark,
2013-04-19, 22:04
- Worst thought out [...] movie. -
Leviathan,
2013-04-19, 21:47
- Worst thought out line ever in a movie -
ZackDark,
2013-04-19, 20:21
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience - Kalamari, 2013-04-20, 09:24
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience - SonofMacPhisto, 2013-04-20, 10:58
- yes - Decom, 2013-04-20, 14:44
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Jillybean,
2013-04-21, 05:49
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
ZackDark,
2013-04-21, 08:46
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Jillybean,
2013-04-21, 09:09
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience - ZackDark, 2013-04-21, 09:28
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience - John Hopson, 2013-04-22, 07:27
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Jillybean,
2013-04-21, 09:09
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-21, 09:09
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Jillybean,
2013-04-21, 09:11
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-21, 09:32
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Jillybean,
2013-04-21, 09:38
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
General Vagueness,
2013-05-09, 12:51
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience - Ragashingo, 2013-05-09, 13:13
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
General Vagueness,
2013-05-09, 12:51
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
RaichuKFM,
2013-04-21, 09:50
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience - Xenos, 2013-04-21, 12:34
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience - SonofMacPhisto, 2013-04-21, 13:39
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
thebruce,
2013-04-24, 07:00
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Xenos,
2013-04-24, 07:40
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
thebruce,
2013-04-24, 08:01
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience - Xenos, 2013-04-24, 08:11
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
thebruce,
2013-04-24, 08:01
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Xenos,
2013-04-24, 07:40
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience - Claude Errera, 2013-05-09, 13:21
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Jillybean,
2013-04-21, 09:38
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-21, 09:32
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Jillybean,
2013-04-21, 09:11
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
kapowaz,
2013-04-22, 09:14
- The problem is... -
breitzen,
2013-04-22, 10:23
- The problem is... -
kapowaz,
2013-04-23, 01:43
- The problem is... -
breitzen,
2013-04-23, 08:27
- The problem is... -
Xenos,
2013-04-23, 10:04
- The problem is... -
breitzen,
2013-04-23, 10:37
- Glad we agree :) -
Xenos,
2013-04-23, 10:44
- Whoo!!!! - breitzen, 2013-04-23, 10:52
- Glad we agree :) -
Xenos,
2013-04-23, 10:44
- The problem is... -
breitzen,
2013-04-23, 10:37
- The problem is... -
Xenos,
2013-04-23, 10:04
- The problem is... -
breitzen,
2013-04-23, 08:27
- The problem is... -
kapowaz,
2013-04-23, 01:43
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-22, 10:44
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Jillybean,
2013-04-22, 11:57
- Great Explanation! - breitzen, 2013-04-22, 12:35
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience - uberfoop, 2013-04-22, 23:31
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
thebruce,
2013-04-24, 07:19
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Jillybean,
2013-04-24, 08:00
- Why reward-motivated gaming can devalue the game experience - thebruce, 2013-04-24, 08:02
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Jillybean,
2013-04-24, 08:00
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Jillybean,
2013-04-22, 11:57
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
Cold,
2013-04-22, 12:04
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
RaichuKFM,
2013-04-22, 12:26
- Multitude of Difficulty Levels -
Cold,
2013-04-23, 08:07
- Multitude of Difficulty Levels -
thebruce,
2013-04-24, 07:30
- Difficulty Levels 1-7 -
Cold,
2013-04-24, 09:04
- Difficulty Levels 1-7 -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-24, 10:30
- Difficulty Levels 1-7 -
Xenos,
2013-04-24, 11:11
- Difficulty Levels 1-7 -
Cold,
2013-04-24, 12:47
- Difficulty Levels 1-7 -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-24, 13:04
- Difficulty Levels 1-7 - Cold, 2013-04-24, 13:18
- Difficulty Levels 1-7 -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-24, 13:04
- Difficulty Levels 1-7 -
Cold,
2013-04-24, 12:47
- Difficulty Levels 1-7 -
Cold,
2013-04-24, 12:44
- Difficulty Levels 1-7 -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-24, 13:00
- That is the very point... -
Cold,
2013-04-24, 13:07
- That is the very point... -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-24, 13:11
- That is the very point... - Cold, 2013-04-24, 13:22
- That is the very point... -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-24, 13:11
- That is the very point... -
Cold,
2013-04-24, 13:07
- Difficulty Levels 1-7 -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-24, 13:00
- Difficulty Levels 1-7 -
Xenos,
2013-04-24, 11:11
- Difficulty Levels 1-7 -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-24, 10:30
- Difficulty Levels 1-7 -
Cold,
2013-04-24, 09:04
- Multitude of Difficulty Levels -
thebruce,
2013-04-24, 07:30
- Multitude of Difficulty Levels -
Cold,
2013-04-23, 08:07
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
RaichuKFM,
2013-04-22, 12:26
- The problem is... -
breitzen,
2013-04-22, 10:23
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
ZackDark,
2013-04-21, 08:46
- This is one of my problems with playing online. -
Mercury,
2013-04-22, 14:39
- Spot on. - thebruce, 2013-04-24, 07:32
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience - stabbim, 2013-04-23, 09:02
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards -
electricpirate,
2013-04-23, 10:16
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-23, 10:31
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards -
electricpirate,
2013-04-23, 11:23
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-23, 11:40
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards - RaichuKFM, 2013-04-23, 12:11
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards - electricpirate, 2013-04-23, 12:16
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards -
Kermit,
2013-04-23, 12:25
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards -
SonofMacPhisto,
2013-04-23, 14:51
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards -
Kermit,
2013-04-23, 16:26
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards - thebruce, 2013-04-24, 07:47
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards -
stabbim,
2013-04-24, 09:35
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-24, 10:18
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards - Xenos, 2013-04-24, 10:26
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards - stabbim, 2013-04-24, 15:22
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-24, 10:18
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards -
Kermit,
2013-04-23, 16:26
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards -
SonofMacPhisto,
2013-04-23, 14:51
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-28, 21:48
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards - RaichuKFM, 2013-04-29, 03:58
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards - thebruce, 2013-04-29, 06:42
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards - Kermit, 2013-04-29, 08:36
- Swings and round-a-bouts, Mr. Miller -
RC,
2013-04-29, 11:03
- Swings and round-a-bouts, Mr. Miller - Cody Miller, 2013-04-29, 11:39
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards - electricpirate, 2013-05-03, 07:34
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards - General Vagueness, 2013-05-09, 16:27
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-23, 11:40
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards -
electricpirate,
2013-04-23, 11:23
- Once again, Mr. Miller has it backwards -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-23, 10:31
- Kinda OT but . . . -
Jillybean,
2013-04-24, 08:05
- Nope, you're the devil! *NM* - Xenos, 2013-04-24, 08:14
- Kinda OT but . . . - SonofMacPhisto, 2013-04-24, 14:18
- Kinda OT but . . . -
Flynn J Taggart,
2013-04-24, 17:04
- Kinda OT but . . . - Cody Miller, 2013-04-24, 19:26
- Not much to add to the current conversation, but... -
Mr Daax,
2013-04-24, 16:01
- +1. Always thought so too. - ZackDark, 2013-04-24, 17:12
- Dude's a genuine 21st century Socrates - Stephen Laughlin, 2013-04-28, 20:19
- A short commentary on games design -
Oz Mills,
2013-04-30, 08:15
- A short commentary on games design -
kapowaz,
2013-04-30, 15:22
- A short commentary on games design - Oz Mills, 2013-05-01, 02:29
- A short commentary on games design -
kapowaz,
2013-04-30, 15:22
- SO WHO WON? -
Cody Miller,
2013-04-30, 19:29
- I wasn't aware we needed a winner. *NM* - Oz Mills, 2013-05-01, 01:42
- EVERYBODY. -
RaichuKFM,
2013-05-01, 03:48
- EVERYBODY. - ZackDark, 2013-05-01, 08:39
- Jury's still out -
thebruce,
2013-05-01, 07:55
- Jury's still out - Oz Mills, 2013-05-01, 08:18
- Ahah oops! -
Cody Miller,
2013-05-01, 15:23
- Heh, they just had. =P - ZackDark, 2013-05-01, 20:38
- Why rewards always devalue the game experience -
ZackDark,
2013-04-19, 17:00