Yes, literally nothing. (Off-Topic)

by CruelLEGACEY , Toronto, Saturday, April 20, 2019, 20:30 (2042 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I like your take on a lot of this stuff, but I did want to talk about this first point:

She even loses her temper and beats him in a duel.

Whoa whoa whoa! No. Watch that scene again. While Rey does get the upper hand in the end by wielding her lightsaber vs Luke's walking stick, Luke was clearly toying with her up until then. It was very nearly the "dueling with one hand while stifling a yawn with the other" trope. He easily blocks and dodges her first few attacks then hits her in the back. He fends off her next attacks and then catches her staff and disarms her, throwing her staff away from her. That is not Luke being beat. If he'd had a lightsaber he would have equally embarrassed her. I enjoy the heck out of that scene because it shows that Luke still has it. That he was still the master in the moments he allowed himself to be.

I think, in this case, you might be reading what you want to see into the scene. I see literally nothing in that scene to suggest that Luke is the one in control. If anything, he looks genuinely afraid. My read on that scene is that Luke is reluctant to fight, only really trying to defend himself, but then starts to see that Rey’s attacks are growing ferocious to the point where he is in real danger. She literally knocks him off his feet. Yes, he does use the force to cushion his fall, showing that he is not utterly defeated, but I see no evidence that he is toying with her. Like vs Kylo? THAT is what toying with an opponent looks like. But I don’t see anything in his scrap with Rey that suggests he is anything other than on the defensive, and possibly desperate.

Come on man, you have to concede something here! Movement by movement:

1. Luke uses the Force to grab his stick in time to block Rey's first attack. (Victor Luke)
2. Rey swings wildly, Luke ducks below her swing. (Victor Luke)
3. Rey swings back to the right, Luke leans backwards not even bother to block. (Victor Luke)
4. Rey swings overhanded, Luke sidesteps left and then slaps her on the back with his stick and then lowers his stick to a resting position. This look on his face is somewhere between "try again" and "you aren't going to beat me that easily" (What, besides playing with her do you intend to call Luke's actions here?!)

From here, the tide of the battle becomes more even as Rey gets angrier after Luke gets his shot in. Luke does not get in any more embarrassing blows for the next several movements and he is falling back instead of holding his ground:

5. Rey jabs, Luke blocks it aside.
6. Rey attack overhead, Luke blocks.
7. Rey swings across, Luke dodges.
8. Rey spins, Luke blocks.
9. Rey swings left, Luke blocks.
10. Rey swings right, Luke blocks
11. Wide shot... a couple of Rey attacks and Luke blocks.
12. Close shot, Rey attacks, Luke blocks.
13. Rey swings left, Luke blocks then grabs her staff, pulls it from her, and tosses it away. (Victor Luke. At this point Rey would be out of the fight. This is less play from Luke and more disarming a threat, but Luke is literally in control at this point because Rey is deprived of her weapon!)
14. Rey very quickly uses the Force to pull her lightsaber, she does not attack but takes an intimidating step forward.
15. Luke stumbles away from the clearly superior weapon and falls down only catching himself at the last second with the Force. This is not just a stumble from a more powerful weapon, though. This is Luke finally conceding that Rey is right. (Victor Rey.)

Now, this is a very complex scene. We're dealing with combat ability, Force mastery, stubbornness, and moral high grounds all in the space of ~20 seconds. But, Luke is clearly in the advantage in movements 1, 2, and 3. And in moments 4 and 13 he had Rey soundly beaten.

At this point in the movie, Rey does have the moral high ground here. It's why she wins the fight, really. She was coming close to (maybe?) turning Kylo Rey back to the light when Luke interrupted. Then, she was also trying to get the real truth out of Luke in regards to what happened between Luke and Ben. Luke gave her a big lie of omission earlier in the film. In Luke's version he was just standing there above Ben and Ben attacked. Ben lied to Rey, too. In his version, Luke came in with murderous intent and attacked.

Once Rey has Luke beat by wielding a lightsaber vs a stick, Luke is forced to admit his mistakes. And tell the whole story. He wasn't just standing there observing when Ben attacked. Instead, he'd activated his lightsaber, but regained control of himself when Ben, frightened and heart darkened, attacked.

Yes, Rey won the battle. But, also yes, when she and Luke were armed with relatively equal weapons, Luke didn't just defend himself. He twice embarrassed her in ways that would have ended the fight if he had intended to harm her. If you can't admit that, then... I just don't know what you are here for. I've enjoyed this entire thread... but this will be the end if you can't give me something here.

Video for reference:

I'll start by saying that theres no need for the self-righteous indignation. We're talking interpretations of a movie scene here, sharing our respective points of view. Believe it or not, I noticed all the same things you've pointed out in my previous viewings of the movie, considered them, and come to a different conclusion. So don't throw a hissy fit every time someone disagrees with you. That tune is a bit played out at this point :)

Your blow-by-blow does nothing to prove your point. You're counting dodged attacks as sign of Luke's victory, only to concede the same outcome that I saw. I already said that Luke had no interest in a real fight, as is early dodges and counters show. His counters were designed to make light of Rey's attacks, but what Luke didn't consider IMO is that Rey's initial attacks weren't serious either. But the fight became serious, whether he wanted it to or not, and when Rey did fully ramp up her attacks, Luke was unable to repel her. Dodging a few early attacks means nothing if you lose the fight in the end, as Luke obviously did.

And I actually completely agree with your assessment that Rey really did hold the high ground in that moment. She wanted to get the truth out of Luke, even if she had to literally beat it out of him. When luke saw that he had lost the moral AND physical battles, he finally realized he had no path forward but to tell Rey what had happened.