Ok, I'm going to give this one more try (Off-Topic)

by CruelLEGACEY , Toronto, Monday, April 22, 2019, 02:01 (1831 days ago) @ Ragashingo
edited by CruelLEGACEY, Monday, April 22, 2019, 02:15

Raga...

Let me get this clear. I wrote:

"I think, in this case, you might be reading what you want to see into the scene. I see literally nothing in that scene to suggest that Luke is the one in control."

And these words made you feel this:

"It's an absolute assertion combined with a delightfully dismissive opening statement. Yes, I felt slighted. It's always great fun when you are told that you are absolutely wrong and that you are absolutely wrong because you are letting some other opinion (in this case, presumably a disagreement on Rey's poor/overly-perfect character arc) cloud your interpretation of a scene."

I think... you might... I took the most polite and delicate approach I possibly could to voicing my opinion and went on to describe why my interpretation does not line up with yours. I said "think" and "might", and you claim it was "absolute assertion" and "delightfully dismissive". That goes beyond poor reading comprehension… it's as if you're reading my words, then running them through some kind of internet troll translator and reacting to what comes out the other end. And this isn't an isolated incident with you. In my experience, the manner in which someone communicates their disagreement with you doesn't matter so much as the fact that someone dares to disagree with you at all. The fact that you would feel "slighted" by such a polite and respectful response speaks volumes about your lack of good faith when it comes to your communications with me. If it really bothers you that much that someone disagrees with your opinion, well, there's nothing I can do about that.

But I honestly don’t know how to read “if you can’t admit that then I don’t know why you’re here and this conversation is over” as anything other than abrasive. It feels very much like “concede or get lost,” to me.

It was more meant as a "if you can't back down from your 'literally nothing' stance then we will have to agree to disagree." But, yeah, said with a somewhat harsher tone. But in reply to a wall of stubbornness, so I'd argue I get some leeway there...

How about next time, you type what you mean? I use polite and respectful language, and you interpret it harshly. You use harsh and abrasive language, but we're all supposed to understand that you mean it lightheartedly. See how that doesn't line up?

As far as your "in a reply to a wall of stubbornness" comment goes, I hope you will truly listen to what I'm about to say.

I really think about what you post in general, and your replies in this thread are no exception. I never assume I'm right. But, I do consider things quite carefully before taking a position. If I'm expressing an opinion on something, it is not something I am just blurting out. I've thought it through. And in the case of this specific discussion, I had already considered most of the points you were bringing up. I considered the same factors that you did, and I still feel that you're interpretation is incorrect. I never said anything condescending or dismissive about your interpretations. I merely said that I don't agree with them, and out of respect for you and the discussion, I went on to explain the reasoning behind my interpretation.

You seem to expect that simply by voicing your opinion, I should be saying "hey, I hadn't thought about that... good point!". And if that were my honest reaction, I would absolutely say so. But you didn't change my mind, because you didn't say much that I hadn't already considered, and the bits that were new to me failed to convince me. So... does this make me a jerk? Or are you simply assuming that I am being "stubborn" because I didn't immediately shift my position upon exposure to your thoughts? The reality is that your thoughts on this subject just aren't convincing to me. This is jumping ahead a bit, but when I say that "literally nothing" that you've said proves your argument in my eyes, I really, honestly, mean it. And I mean it without scorn or pettiness. I mean it respectfully. It is possible that you are just that wrong... and it's equally possible that I am. Or maybe we both are. And that is OK!!! I'm still interested in hearing your opinions. I still read them because I'm curious to know what you think. Once again, your replies to me take the stance of someone who is being insulted or attacked, when in reality, there are no insults or attacks present in my post.

So... when I get told that I'm reading things into the fight when I myself am neutral on Rey and her over/under significance... yeah... it's one of those "how can you claim to know what I'm thinking when even I don't fully know what I'm thinking" type moments. And thus "you're reading what you want to see" stings all the more.

That said, I assume that's where Cruel was coming from / going. I didn't verify it. That's a big mistake on my part.

But instead of saying any of that in your reply to me, you assumed the worst possible intentions from me and got combative and hostile. Once again, it's "let's assume the worst about Cruel's motivations". It's not my intention to hammer you on this point, as you're openly saying that it was a mistake, for which I am grateful. I am, however, trying to stress the fact that this is an ongoing pattern with your communications with me.

It's dragging the forum down guys. I'd love to find some better way to work past this with the both of you. What can I do to help with that? And, will I ever see some concession from either of you for your parts in all this?

That depends? Are you expecting me to make concessions for the perceived slights that bare no similarity to the actual words that I used? Please believe me, I've gone over this entire thread, and I can't find a single thing that I've said that warrants a hostile interpretation. If I'm missing something, please tell me. I'm not claiming to be faultless or blameless here. But I simply can't tell for certain how or why the words I write illicit such feelings from you. I have some guesses. I've assumed for some time now that you simply don't like me. And if true, that's fine. I expect harsh and combative responses from you, despite all my attempts to be even and measured and respectful. I see no reason for you to believe me when I say this, but I will add that I have come to expect overly aggressive and combative responses from you towards anyone disagrees with you. I won't say that it happens every time, but often enough that I expect it. And then, when people here try again to explain their point of view, either to clarify their position or continue the discussion, you have a tendancy to get even more deffensive and reply as if you are being ganged up on or bullied. I'm stepping into brutally honest territory here, because like you, I want to try to avoid these patterns in the future, and I don't see how we can do so without fully understanding where we both stand. So here's my brutally honest position: I don't trust your interpretations of my posts. If someone tells me that I've offended them or hurt their feelings, my instant reaction is to assume that I have made a mistake, look at what I've said, and try to see it from their perspective in as many different ways as I can manage. Maybe I didn't clarify my thoughts correctly, maybe I made certain incorrect assumptions, etc. But I'm in a situation with you where you seem to constantly and reliably assume the worst possible intent with everything I say. On top of that, it is my genuine opinion that you get worked up in a negative way when people disagree with you, no matter how respectfully they do so. You might think I'm wrong, but I've seen it enough to know how I feel about it, regardless of whether or not you agree. And that leaves me feeling unsure of how to fix this.

In the end, all I can say is this: if I disagree with something, that does not a sign of disrespect. If we're discussing something and I don't change my mind, that is not evidence of me being stubborn. I actually change my mind all the time, and have no problem admitting it when it happens. Finally, I assume that every post I read, yours incuded, are meant in good faith and in the spirit of friendly and respectful discussion. I will continue to do so. You can interpret my posts in whatever manner you wish. And if I have a bad day or make a mistake and say something that truly and clearly is insulting or dismissive, I would expect to be called out on it. But if you're interpretations are based on assumptions about me that include arguing in bad faith or with the intention to dismiss, insult, or belittle, then don't expect me to respond to your objections. Because in such a case, whatever you would be objecting to, it is not me.