Ok, I'm going to give this one more try (Off-Topic)

by Ragashingo , Official DBO Cryptarch, Monday, April 22, 2019, 19:28 (2040 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY
edited by Ragashingo, Monday, April 22, 2019, 19:32

So... one thing you might not know about me is that I enjoy referencing movie quotes when I get really serious. There's something about the writing and flow and feel and effort that all goes into a truly memorable quote that I think deserves recognition. Memorable quotes says what a lot of what we'd like to say if we were half as clever as the rooms full of writers that came up with them... at least that's what I think. I feel like I've mentioned this somewhere around her long ago, but it's not worth tracking down. I had a couple of possible quotes I wanted to use for my reply, but the one I finally settled on was:

René Belloq: You and I are very much alike. Archeology is our religion, yet we have both fallen from the pure faith. Our methods have not differed as much as you pretend. I am but a shadowy reflection of you. It would take only a nudge to make you like me. To push you out of the light.

Henry Jones Jr.: Now you're gettin' nasty.

And, given my behavior, I was playing the role of Belloq in our recent dealings. :(

That's all to start off by saying that I'm being very serious here. But it's also true that I don't do the movie quotes thing to people who I don't consider at least a good advocacy.

So, let me start out with the really important parts. Three of them I think...

First:

You use harsh and abrasive language, but we're all supposed to understand that you mean it lightheartedly. See how that doesn't line up?

You are right here. If I stand for anything, it's that tone matters as much as message, and I failed in that regard in some of my replies to you. Most notably, the way I phrased what was intended to be something much closer to "let's agree to disagree". For that I sincerely apologize. Bad tone spoils any message. Makes it hard if not impossible to have a conversation. And I did that in this thread.

Second:

I've assumed for some time now that you simply don't like me.

No. Again, if I didn't like you, if I didn't think you were someone worth listening to, you would never hear from me. There were certainly places in our back and forth where I was significantly overly harsh in tone. But, I also put in real efforts to engage with you on a variety of different subpoints. I'd still like to hear your thoughts one whatever it was I asked you at the end of my last reply to you. (The stuff about JJ possibly changing tone and direction again.) I know I've said it pretty explicitly in the past (probably during a different one of our clashes) but I really do enjoy engaging with you and have a great deal of respect for the way you handle yourself around here. I'd say you were a worthy advocacy, but that word, advocacy, is to negative. You are someone worth paying attention to because of the high quality of your opinions and the way you express them.

Third:

I do not agree with all the points you made about my behavior, or all of the ones you made about yours. I am going to address both. I am going to share where I think you are wrong about you and about me. You probably won't like or agree with everything I have to say, but like you, I'm not approaching any of this out of malice or pettiness. Instead, I'm doing all of this in the hopes of fostering a better understanding.

First, I'd like to address your thoughts about your first reply to me. The "reading what you want into the scene" & "literally nothing" reply. You say:

I think... you might... I took the most polite and delicate approach I possibly could to voicing my opinion and went on to describe why my interpretation does not line up with yours. I said "think" and "might", and you claim it was "absolute assertion" and "delightfully dismissive". That goes beyond poor reading comprehension… it's as if you're reading my words, then running them through some kind of internet troll translator and reacting to what comes out the other end.

I've got a few problems with this one...

1. Saying someone is reading what they want to see into a scene is not particularly polite or delicate, no matter the words proceeding it. From the very start, I had to wonder what you thought my motivations were. I made a guess when responding to cheapLEY earlier, that maybe you thought I was a part of the "Rey isn't too perfect" crowd. But the truth is, I really didn't like being labeled right out of the gate. You talked a lot about my behavior seeming to be pre-prejudiced against you or anyone who disagrees with me. I see the same thing from you here. As I indicated to cheapLEY, I don't have a strong option either way on Rey. Really, the truth is I wish I did have a stronger opinion, but I feel the movies have been somewhat mediocre at giving either side of that debate enough evidence to prove their points.

So, even the implication that I might be reading into the scene... well, it wasn't correct. It was a bad assumption. You later say you were only relating an opinion that you strongly held based on giving real consideration to the scene. The same goes for me! I didn't just make it up off the top of my head or blurt it out. I double checked myself. I watched closely to see if I agreed with your point of view. And ultimately, I did not. We're very much alike, you and I. At least in that regard.

2. This part of your reply:

I said "think" and "might", and you claim it was "absolute assertion" and "delightfully dismissive".

I read/read the opening of your reply as two separate sentences. Two separate, disconnected statements. The first being that I was reading into the scene. The second being that you absolutely did not agree with my interpretation. Given the rest of our posts, I think it is extremely fair to say that you did, in fact, make one or absolute assertions as to what went on with the scene. Even if it is a well considered opinion, you still held to it in an absolute, no compromise fashion. And that is why I went to great lengths to try and demonstrate my points.

I also still do think it is dismissive to claim that maybe someone is wrong because they are reading something into a scene. If you are allowed to consider things quite carefully before taking a position, aren't I allowed the same? I don't feel you gave me the same credibility as you gave yourself.

So... that all leads to this:

The fact that you would feel "slighted" by such a polite and respectful response speaks volumes about your lack of good faith when it comes to your communications with me. If it really bothers you that much that someone disagrees with your opinion, well, there's nothing I can do about that.

I hope you better understand where I was coming from. My issue wasn't that you disagree with me. It was that you did so while dismissing me. That your very first words seemed to be writing off my point of view as reading something into a scene.

Next I'd like to address this:

That depends? Are you expecting me to make concessions for the perceived slights that bare no similarity to the actual words that I used? Please believe me, I've gone over this entire thread, and I can't find a single thing that I've said that warrants a hostile interpretation. If I'm missing something, please tell me.

I think there was one other part of your replies to me that was super uncalled for. This:

So don't throw a hissy fit every time someone disagrees with you. That tune is a bit played out at this point :)

Now, I admit, I instigated things a bit with my closing sentence about ending the conversation if you wouldn't concede something. I should have said something more along the lines of "Ok. Let's agree to disagree." But hissy fit? Primarily, I was responding in detail to your absolute assertion that you saw literally nothing that you agreed with me on. I had what I believed, and still believe, are at least one if not two irrefutable actions in the Luke vs Rey duel that proved you wrong. But, I was not throwing a fit. I was stepping through The Last Jedi frame by frame writing down what I saw. Nothing more than that. The moment to moment part of my post was made in good faith and in the spirit of friendly and respectful discussion. I know I repeated it a lot to cheapLEY, but I'll say it here too. From a certain point of view, namely mine, I was talking to someone who saw "literally nothing" of what I saw. To me, such a strong assertion demands an equally strong explanation. That's what I was trying to provide. So, yes, I see the accusation of a hissy fit as hostile. It wasn't kind. It wasn't accurate.

I also don't like that it seems like our every conversation devolves into you calling me out for things I've done in the past. You're right about a lot of stuff. I don't always make the best posts. I still have a bad habit of... sharpening the end of a post into a cruel point instead of softening it into a friendly conclusion. But, at the same time, I feel like I can't talk to you at all without you making vague references to something else that happened some other when. You say that you assume that every post you read, mine included, are meant in good faith and in the spirit of friendly and respectful discussion... but over and over I get this hostility about the past from you. I got the exact same thing from you in our discussion about The Last Word, for instance. Back then, you said that the person who made a very nice video explaining his point of view was jumping through hoops to justify himself. Now, when you and I disagree on the specifics of a scene, I am reading something into it instead of having an honest considered opinion.

You were brutally honest with me, so let me be so with you: While I'm not as good as I think I am at debate and keeping my cool, you're not as innocent as you think you are, either. When you slip up, you phrase your insults and dismissals in a nicer, tamer way that I do when I slip up. It's easier for you (or anyone else) to pick apart my slip ups, for sure. Maybe you don't even realize that what you are saying isn't 100% respectful... but it isn't. And perhaps it's unfair and perhaps it's hypocritical because of how bad I am, but I don't go after you for disagreeing with me. I do it to try and show you your slips ups. And that's always been true of everyone. You, cheapLEY, Cody Miller. Anyone and everyone I've ever gone after, it has been to point out a dismissive tone or a belittling stance. It's only the rarest times that I have objected to their actual points or opinions. Narcogen's accusation that Bungie fans were sexist is one of the few examples that comes to mind. Now, is it fair for me to focus so heavily on tone given my own behavior? Probably not. But making this about my reaction to differences of opinions is simply not accurate. It is deeply hurtful. I'd far rather you accuse me of what I am guilt of, not what I'm not...

Now... those were some harsh words from me to you. Take a breath. This is the point where I want to help us both move on. I think you take into consideration my past any time you deal with me, and I do the same with you. Instead of going around in this same circle, can we maybe let the past die? Kill it if we have to? I really do appreciate your posts and points of view. I even appreciate this post you made to me. I'd say there's some points that hit closer to home than I'd like to admit because they were true.

So, for my part, I'm going to try and do a better job of interacting with you and everyone else in the way that I demand that you and they interact with me. I am sorry for my hypocrisy. I can and will do better.

Oh, and maybe this is too much to ask or maybe you might feel it is too dangerous of a thing, but there was something cheapLEY said earlier. He basically said he tended to take your side in all of this because ya'll played Destiny together. The last time we played together I had a good time... and not just because you were racking up the kills. I made a jest about The Last Word hoping I wasn't going to far and you took it well. I was relieved and enjoyed the evening and that we could apparently laugh a bit about our heated interactions in this slow, easy to misinterpret form of communication. I think maybe more of that would help us to have better interactions here. You may not be playing Destiny anymore. Or maybe you're so fed up with me that you'll think its a bad idea. But at least give it some consideration. I promise, it's not a trap!

And that's that. The only other thing I can say is I look forward to our next interaction here on the boards, and I intend for it to go better than this one.

P.S. I sprinkled some Star Wars references throughout. I hope you and others find and appreciate them. :)

P.P.S This was a 3.5 hour long post. If there's some weird typo or sentence that cuts off at random, please ask. I probably meant to type something more coherent than ended up on the screen...

P.P.P.S. The board said you posted at 4:15am? That's crazy! But... it's my kind of crazy, cause I know I would have too if I'd seen your reply in the wee hours of the morning...