Woah... Hold on a sec (Destiny)

by Miguel Chavez, Thursday, July 30, 2015, 01:31 (3403 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Sorry for posting and then leaving this morning… I had a full work day and am only now getting back - composing this will take time as well. So again, sorry for the long delay.

Now to work on the friendly Canadian and few others and this forum could be 'right' for once. For CL, he doesn't have to leave, he would just have to change.

Woah... I didn't realize my being here (among others) was preventing this forum from being "right" in your eyes.

I thought I made it quite clear many posts ago that the forum has a problem that has turned me and several others off. It's an observation, (I didn't take a poll) and I feel it's a very subtle problem, which means it's very hard to correct. To even admit that there is one! I could be full of shit, fighting at windmills!

But I also want to say I was only using my rant on Cody as an excuse to just tease the others around here. You specifically, of course, I'm not denying that. But I'm just trying to clear up that I'm not saying you folks are terrible people - there's just a 'problem' that I have seen and I have observed from others a likewise feeling. This is not scientific, or organized or what have you. It is that holiest of holies here that everyone seems to pride themselves on: an opinion.

In that thread from weeks ago, I was actually composing a long reply to you and then my browser shit the bed. In frustration, I txted Claude that I gave up - the tech gods were telling me to go fuck off! But I was sincerely trying to keep the conversation going. I will try that now. (this time typing my reply in a texteditor, saving it regularly, so a machine/app crash doesn't destroy all my hard work)

*You* have to leave because I see no change coming from within you - you just don't have that humility. Even your 'goodbye' post is full of boasting and penis waving, but posts like CL's below shows there's still so much work to be done. I used the word 'insidious' and I mean it. It's such a subtle, agile virus - this infector of tone and entitlement.

I think, I know the answer to this, but I'd appreciate it if you could specify which post below you are referring to.

Actually no, this would be a *better* exercise if you and I took this opportunity to see if you spot what I spot.

You have all the power to tell *me* to fuck off. I completely respect your position and your time! If you think I'm trying to play games with you, that I'm wasting your time - I can't do anything to correct that perception. All I can say is that I honestly think it would be interesting if we can make headway by looking at what *you* think *I* think is the problem. You've already demonstrated several times (and again - this is a testament on why I BELIEVE YOU'RE THE PERFECT PERSON TO TALK TO ABOUT THIS) a willingness to look back, give previous statements another pass, and decide "Well, maybe I should work on that."

The thing is - there's no way I can 'force' folks here on the forum to change - I'm just using my powers of snark and (now) discourse to maybe get some of you to look back on yourselves and maybe - just maybe - see what I'm seeing - and maybe creating the impetus for change. Could it work? I haven't a clue. I could embarrass myself in all this and just come up looking like the mad, curmudgeonly old wank that I probably am anyway. But I do love what folks have done within the walls of B.O. over the many decades and will take my lumps by destroying whatever goodwill I have with this one last mission.

A forum of intelligent 'self-aware' posts that can easily flip between the fun had in the game along with the occasional wonder about the potential 9 years of expansion, of how tough it is to make a game this broad in scope and appeal, about how they hit the mark more often than not, about how 90% of the time user frustration is *user created*, about peering past the sociological aspects of game playing and being content that things are working out just fine? Well, that would be the dream, no? For me at least.

I'm trying to see the positive side of your words here, but I can't.

You don't see the positive in what I describe above? Really? Then maybe we have a bigger problem then even I thought. I'll press on though, as I really think you meant that in a different way, I'm just not sure.

You've made posts along these lines before, and it often comes across as "talk about this game the way I want you to or GTFO". You've expressed that you have no tolerance for armchair game design... That's fine. Is it so bad that others do?

Well, OF COURSE!? Or else why would I have expressed that I have no tolerance for armchair game design - and then be tolerant of it? But allow me to clarify what I'm seeing. I'll explain more in a bit.

Why is any comment or question on design indicative of this insidious virus you speak of? You rally against anything you perceive as narcissistic or self-important, yet you are completely intolerant of people who discuss aspects of a game you're not interested in. And you get quite hostile in the process.

Actually I would appreciate if you showed me where I inject myself into 'anything' I perceive, etc. on this forum. That would imply that I'm a steady persistent voice that shits on threads here. I don't think I do that. I have posted… wait for it! 130 times SINCE THE DBO FORUM OPENED, (because the whiff of what was happening here was strong even at the start, though for a diametrically opposite reason - that actually when I think about it, lends itself to why things then flipped 180 to the current state - but I digress) in no way am I a 'top poster' here - that I post in volume. Maybe you're imagining that I post here more than I do, or my occasional posts are so strong to you that they are 'spreading' over other threads that I actually ignored and did not participate in at all.

The hostility is a result of reaching my breaking point. I had abandoned (like some others have in my view) this forum but I'm upset I did that. Couple that with the continued 'virus effect' here and how certain folks have tried an even-handed approach to adjusting things to no avail, and it all turns into a ball of fire that I have a need to react to. Lashing out gets you folks to stop and take a look. *Some* of you see beyond it and see what I'm getting at - others just see the hostility and don't want to look further. That's fine - I can only be judged by what I write in my posts - to wit: wouldn't *this* post that I'm writing with such care show that there's more to it then just my being upset?

Ah, who am I kidding? I'm the lone minority here (with a handful of fellow compatriots but you take my meaning). You guys (and gals) love to navel gaze and armchair quarterback. You folks can do no wrong, you're opinions are all correct and Bungie is a stupid, disorganized, barely-believe-they-can-exist company that has somehow suckered you all into playing for hours. How clever are you all for seeing through their grift and spotting them for the idiots they are? Oh, very clever! But let's stick around, *maybe* Bungie learned their lesson and NOW they'll properly fetch your coffee exactly as you expect it.

I'm not sure if you are really addressing Cody directly, or all of "us" (those you see as a problem on these forums). But you say "you guys and gals", so I'm going to assume you are still addressing me. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I am addressing all those who have been carrying around this attitude that ***even with measured tones*** have created an overall effect on the forum. YES! But as an aside, Cody was the Taken King of this bunch - so 90% of that diatribe is laid right on his feet. And he's the king maybe not by fiat, but just by the power of his position on things. I mean, look, I'm not blind that he was challenged here by others, but unfortunately there would be others that whole-heartedly agreed with him or even saw his position as valid to begin a conversation with him. It's why my posts in the past year to him rarely actually engaged with anything he posited - By acknowledging such backwards thinking was, even if in disagreement, giving him validation. I refused to do that. I won't talk to a flat-earther - there's no point.

If you are addressing me along with others, how can you possibly say these things about me? I have my opinions, as we all do. I have my likes and dislikes. The vast majority of my posts are positive thoughts on the game. When I do have a criticism or concern, I am careful to voice my opinion within the frame of constructive criticisms. Bungie themselves have told us over and over that they like to hear constructive feedback. Many of the changes the community has suggested have gone straight into the game. So I point stuff out whenever I think of it, but not once have I ever said anything that deserves this:

You folks can do no wrong, you're opinions are all correct and Bungie is a stupid, disorganized, barely-believe-they-can-exist company that has somehow suckered you all into playing for hours

I apologize, but I'm talking about a spectrum. So I'm pointing with the above rant to the most vitriolic anti-Destiny fervor I see from time to time. That's not fair to you all and not really what I intend. Turn down my vitriol to a simmering 2 or 3, and maybe that's more appropriate to the level some of you bring here. What's probably also unfair is that I'm even lumping in what I see on Twitter, Facebook, Reddit, and even B.net forums - because it *all* feels like part of a spectrum. But I do that *because* there is cross-pollination of arguments, theories, etc. It's undeniable that excuses like "I can play for hours and still not like elements of the game" or "I'm a fan but I think Bungie screwed us on DLC pricing" has been as often seen HERE on DBO forums as well as the other venues I mentioned before. I really hope none of you are denying that. Part of my disappointment is that back in the Halo days, b.net WAS very different from HBO forum - One was a cesspool of frustration and entitlement and the other was about community and fun and intelligent conversation. I'm *not* saying they are identical but the line seperating the two is less thick and girthy. Know what I mean? (and heading off you naysayers - I'm not saying this forum is a cesspool)

But back to your point: That's the problem with my trying to address everyone - I don't really mean to lump you all in together, because you all have a particular individual approach. It's again why this is all so tough to discuss because it's not a simple matter of 'you are all guilty of doing X - now stop it or else one of us has to leave' And I have, I thought, honorably addressed you Cruel in particular in that post from weeks ago. You're *exactly* why the forum can be saved. Because you're indeed a great guy, a lover of the game, and yet even with all that, it is *firmly* embedded within you (as well as others) to discuss things with a particular slant that reveals a larger picture that I do not agree with.

Cody was a lost cause. The rest of you (that have shades of what I'm driving at) are not.

I'm going to be blunt. You make me want to stop posting here. I'm still a relatively new face around here at DBO, but I've lurked HBO for years. I have all the respect in the world for you. In my mind, you're one of the founding fathers who made HBO what it was, and DBO what it is. So when you describe me the way that you did above, I take it to heart. You have, in the past, inferred that you say the things that others won't because they're too nice (you've mentioned Claude and Levi specifically)... more people I respect and look up to. So I believe you. But I also feel you are 100% wrong in your assessment of me.

Either way, maybe I should just fuck off.

I'm honored that I have your respect. So with that, listen to my argument below.

I see others of you are also chiming in with shock and disgust, that's fine. Hear me out as well. And I also take heart in seeing that some of you (Funkmon, Kermit, etc.) GET WHAT I'M SAYING.

Here's my problem - the attitude around here is that we are king - the customer is entitled to a full, glorious experience. The company fails if that is not met. I find this unreasonable to the extreme. Even when things are discussed and 'constructively criticized' it feels like just another justification in saying "I'm not happy with what they did, they missed the ball."

I challenged you above Cruel, you can feel free to accept my challenge or just tell me to hose off. Either way, If you guess what I'm talking about or not, I'll then reveal that exact example of what I'm talking about from a thread below. But here's a hint - and not me trying to weasel my way out of this: It's not some revelatory example of how something said is terrible from all angles. It's subtle, it's benign. But my point is that it occurs over and over and over again, and as it adds up, it 'colors' the conversation. It leads to other folks looking at each other and wondering "Really? It's that bad?"

Maybe as it's revealed you will all collectively say "THAT'S what you're upset about?" and again I have lost face amongst you - clearly I'll take my lumps. Some of you have showed such a thin skin about all this, I can tell it's all over regardless, but that's fine.

To those of you privately reaching out to me, I thank you for the support. For those of you publically lambasting me, I still thank you for the reaction at least. Maybe there can be engagement here.

The greatest victory is that Cody at least hasn't returned. If he's moved on all the better.

- M